I am in the finishing stages of building a deck right now. I have been dealing with the husband mostly. All through the project the husband has authorized several changes including over 200 additional square feet. When the cost of materials went above the amount of the deposit, I asked for an advance for the additional materials. The wife asked if it was still the same price. I told her no. It would be more because of the additional square feet and other extras the husband authorized. She had a fit. Has in a round about way called me a liar. I have tried to meet this woman half way by offering to eat some of the labor. They have the money so that should not be a problem. She asked me to stop after putting the deck boards down. So I did. She has badgered me with questions. How much was this? How much was that? I have broken the job estimate down into 7 separate estimates. I have had it. Today I cleaned up the site. Took all the left over materials back to the lumber yard. Loaded up my tools and have started another job.
I will probably eat most of the labor on this job. But what has me bothered is this. I pulled the building permit in my name. What would happen if lets say the husband was to install hand rails that do not meet code? Since the permit is in my name will I be held accountable? Should I take the permit with me? I am planning on calling the county and informing them but I want some other opinions please.
Kip
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I had a problem with a client like this...but it was for a basement and placement of a modular home. I went to the building dept and canceled
the permit.
I explained the situation and they canceled the permit. I then informed
the client and took my permit back. If its in your name/company name
its yours.
I don't know - I'm not there, but I wouldn't fold yet. Sounds like the 3 of you all need to have a meeting and maybe you tell them that you have to deal with them both at the same time from here on out. I think you have to finish, or that will be more detrimental to your rep than anything. I'd even concider telling them you need the balance minus maybe 20% to continue work. In any case, if they don't pay for all your labor I'd file a lien. No threats. It's just business. I'm thinking you should have gotten signed change orders though (hind sight is ... bla bla bla) , but in my state, a situation like this often is ruled in favor of the contractor. BTW - who signed the contract?
Re the permit, I don't see why you are concerned about that. If the thing never gets signed off, I'd think it's the customer's problem. I always give all the permit paperwork to the customer once the job is done. I have never not finished a job though, so I'm probably not a good resource.
I'll bet that this is not as over as you think.
Permits define the job at a job location and record the responsibility for the job.
Your local rules may be different. A property owners name and notorized signature must always be on the permit, since the property and the results of the construction belong to him. A property owner, unless for commercial use, is allowed to do his own work but only after taking a test to prove himself at least marginally capable or knowledgeable. If a contractor's name is on the permit it means that the property owner has hired someone licensed to do the job and other than writing the check and living up to the terms of the contract should not be doing any work. This make the contractor responsible for any construction on the site and living up to his end of the contract. Also, many jobs require an engineer's stamp on the plans so there are usually provisions for the engineer or architect signature.
You do have a contract? You do have provisions for change orders which include authorizing signature(s)? You DID make up those change orders when the husband authorized additional work?
You've already been micro managed into giving up your pricing formula so it seems you let yourself in for a real nitpicking. I see no way out of that unless you can just tell her this is the price for what your husband authorized and refuse to break it down.
Why are you offering to eat some of your labor? You did the work so stick to your guns. Don't abandon the job. Do file a lien for the ENTIRE cost of the job.
Finally - Does the husband have enough spine to back you up?
Edit- Yes, you could cancel the permit but that would not get you your deserved money. It could even be ammunition against you in legal procedings.
Edited 10/13/2004 11:17 pm ET by Ralph Wicklund
Why are you offering to eat some of your labor? You did the work so stick to your guns. Don't abandon the job. Do file a lien for the ENTIRE cost of the job
I agree.
So far he did good. Packing up and walking ....
I'd walk ... and still be expecting the whole amount.
The magistrate will probably lower that amount since he found work to fill the time ...
But I'd still be sending in the final ... total .. invoice.
and who ever's name in on the permit owns it ... as far as I know.
My name ... I'd call the permit office and cancel it ... then go over to claim it!
and ... doccument everything. Magistrates love documentation.
Plus ... take pics. Lotsa pics ... "if" they let you back onto the property.
If not ... document that too.
as wierd as these things sound ... I've found that when I hear of one such occurance ... it's usually not the first. Some people have a way of playing the no pay game.
Jeff
Why did I offer to eat some of the labor? I am too nice of a guy.
The deck is for a vacation home owned by the wife and her family. They called me to look at the roof. It is a 12/2 pitch. They have been patching shingle jobs for 35 years on this place. This last shingle job only lasted 4 years. I was the first person to tell them that to only way to fix this roof was to install tin. I gave them a price and they had me do the work. They were great to work with.
They wanted to replace the decking and add some square footage to it. I gave them a price for the job. But the floor plan was cluttered and unusable. I suggested some changes that would make the deck more useable. They liked the suggestions. I told them I could do it for the same price. But then they added over 200 square feet and an elaborate floor plan. The add square feet caused me to have to do some grading. Involving 4 hours of tractor use.
They were in a hurry for me to start. And since they were constantly changing things, I gave them a square foot price. The husband agreed with this. Now the husband is claiming that I agreed to do it for the original price. About $3500 less than what we agreed on.
Does the husband have the balls to stand up to her? NO! She is a Divorce Lawyer. He knows which side of the bread the butter is on.
But the odd thing through all this is. I have never met her. She wanted to do all this through her husband and E-mail (I still have all the E-mails). I have offered to meet her at her office or her home or anywhere for that matter. But she cant seem to take an hour out of a day to meet with me.
I spoke with a good friend of mine about this. He is a retired home builder. He said he would have walked away when this started and would not have finished putting the deck boards down.
Now she is badgering me like a defendant on the stand.
OK now you can tell me how stoopid I am.
Kip
The answer is to tell the Mrs. "don't talk to me, talk to your husband." Then, tell them that the next conversation will be with both of them present. They are playing divide and conquer with you. If you start agreeing to cut your labor (or anything else), it's like an admission that you don't deserve the additional money. You should maintain the attitude that this is an intramural squabble between them, and you're just the contractor. They need to hash out their own differences. You just need to get paid for the work you did and the husband authorized.
And don't worry too much about the wife being a divorce lawyer. They blow hard, but it's just noise.
SHG
You are not stupid. You are just being taken advantage of my some slime balls. Although I do think it would be unwise to let the situation go without your being compensated fully for your time and materials already invested. I like what was said above - document, document. Go to site and take some pictures, and maybe, for now, just remove the permit so that you have it in your possession.
Carefully look through your E-mail and make copies/print out all that you have. If you have deleted some, check your deleted folder/recycle bin to make sure they are not in there.
If it comes down to you having to go to the mat with these people, it sounds like a hard situation to prevail in, but it sounds like this "lady" thinks her time is so valuable that it is like gold, and personally I'd get Immense satisfaction out of making her meet you in front of the authorities and using as much of her time as possible.
Matt
Edited 10/14/2004 7:04 am ET by DIRISHINME
my dad always says, two people that will never pay you, is a preacher and a lawyer. a lawyer will find away to keep from paying you, and a preacher does not believe he alt to pay you to begin with.
I have found in my own experance that a poor person will pay you sooner and better than a rich person.
Kip
Bologna. I've worked for so many lawyers I can't remember, and been paid by every one of them.
The permit could be signed off by another contractor. The permit is "owned" by the contractor and he is legally responsible for the job, everything on that job - done under that permit. That includes if someone falls due to a bad railing, heaving of a footing under a support post, anything. That's why "his" name and license is attached to the permit.
If you happen to talk to these people again, said: "Please tell me where I can go to a clothing store and buy a suit, and upon preparing to pay for it tell the clerk I want a shirt and tie also. And when she says it will be another $50 I want to be able to say to her: 'What? You're going to charge me extra?' I want to shop there regularly."
Document what you have done, and why you have stopped the job. Notify the building department. File an intent to lien. Then, if the homeowners do not respond file the lien on the property. Time is important, there is a time frame that you have to work with in filing the intent as well as the lien.