A little situation in the rental side of my business life: Hired a licensed plumber on behalf of and with homeowner approval, then main breaks, and basement floods.
- Rental house I look after for others has 120psi domestic water service from the City and needs frequent fixture/valve/washer hose repairs.
- Reported findings to owners and suggested installation of PR device, downstream from the house main. Since house main is 70 y.o. 1/2″ galvy pipe from the City main and house master shutoff is just as old and not fully watertight, I balk at the responsibility and decide to retain a licensed plumber. Plumber is a one-man operation, good rep, acquaintance of mine. Plumber to bill HO directly, I bill HO a management fee. HO gives the go-ahead.
- Plumber and I scope out the job on Monday. I tell plumber I bailed on doing it myself because of the risk of working with old galvy…the possible damage to a finished basement Landlord’s suite…and disruption to the tenant’s lives if the main breaks.
- Plumber tests the master shutoff, which holds back 99.8% of the flow, and says he’s comfortable doing it wihout the City shutting the house at the curb. I tell him neither the owners nor I mind paying the Water Dept. the $25 shutoff fee, to make sure the house is protected. Plumber still wants to do the install live. I go along.
- I wasn’t there Wednesday when the main snapped off at the first fitting, inches from the conc. foundation: a galvy elbow. There was no room to swing a pipe cutter, so sawzall used… City can’t find their shutoff at the curb, so they open two manholes and shut whole block down.
- Basement received 90 minute’s worth at 120psi.
- 5 hrs later, disaster recovery pumps 180 gallons out of basement, removes carpets for deodorising/drying, leaves behind four huge laminar blowers. Responding to recorded messages from tenants, I arrive 1 hour into pumping process. Disaster service will cost in the $750 range, billed to HO.
- Minor apparent damage in landlord’s suite, carpets awash, furniture legs in water, beds saved. Things drying quickly.
- Drywall moisture meter readings up to 8″ above concrete floor, on partition and perimeter walls. Baseboards are painted MDF with no apparent damage. Rough wood wainscotting on some walls shows no or very limited staining. I don’t know what type insulation is in walls.
- I’ve been in there twice a day since Wed., moving things and fans around, hopefully forestalling a mold fest. Have timed/dated digipics.
Plumber says he stabilized the pipe with ViceGrips prior to sawzalling it, but pipe broke at elbow fitting thread. Metal is thin there because of thread, but clean, shiny and sound at break site. No major corrosion readily apparent from within or outside, to tip one off. But break site inches from conc. foundation. I agree with plumber that even if God herself had been hired, this pipe would have broken there. Maybe setting the fitting in a yard of concrete would have helped. HO asked why sawzall rather than pipe cutter: no room I said.
Plumber said he’d pay for the water extraction and carpet cleaning. Told the cost, and the need to purchase new underpad, he asked if the homeowner’s insurance could cover it and he’d pay the deductible. Told him I was hoping it would not need drywalling and baseboarding. I’ve put plumber’s suggestion to the owners in email and am awaiting their reply. Plumber has license but no insurance.
Plumber holding off on invoice ’till dust settles’. Water pressure in house now regulated….but ironically at the very cost that I was trying to avoid in the first place.
In your opinion, given the circumstances, how do the liabilities lay?
Edited 2/19/2005 8:49 pm ET by Pierre1
Edited 2/19/2005 8:49 pm ET by Pierre1
Replies
The first three peole on the list would be:
The plumber
The plumber
The plumber
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
So glad you replied.
Is the plumber responsible because he ought to have had the Water Dept. shut the house main, having been told the owners did not mind paying the City's fee to do so?
Is it reasonable that the HO claim against their house ins. (it is a rental home policy) and the plumber reimburse the HO for their deductible and whatever the ins. does not cover?
Thanks.
That latter is a possible negotiated solution, but probably better for the plumber than for the HO. This is because the HO rates will surely go up after the claim, and this might not work out anyway. There was a case over here a couple years ago, where the plumber turned ont the water to the hosue in spring and checked everything out. All was fine. My wife is involved in that household. she did weekly inspections for three weeks and all was well.
Suddenly, the supply line to the upstairs toilet started leaking and a lot of stuff - walls, insulation, flooring, carpet, paint, baseboard trim - was ruined and required replacement. Insurance company called in to deal with it.
A couple of months after it was all done, the plumber discovered that he was the subject of a suit for cost of damages levied by the HOs insurance company.I suppose somebody might want to try holding you responsible as the agent for the owner, but if facts are as you report, there was no negligence on your part. That he is in business asa plumber suggests that he would have proper insurance. It is not curtomary to ask for copies of insurance certificate from every tradesman who is retained to work on a house in this manner.Quite the contrary with the plumber since he was told to have the water shut off first before beginning. To my mind, he was negligent twice. Once in not shutting off the water, and once in not having any insurance. If hwe advertises and runs a business as a tradesman, he is implying that he runs things professionally.So, how low is the water pressure adjusted to now? Probably less than the blood pressure...
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
60 psi. The house must be breathing a sigh of relief, like an 80 y.o. migraine suddenly ending with a giant wooosh. The tenants have yet to complain about the pressure drop. To their credit, they've been very tolerant of the comings and goings.
I stayed cool, calm and collected in my dealings with the plumber. HO took the news philosophically - they were more concerned for their tenants and for me, bless them - and offered to pay me for the extra trouble. I told them I'd bill the plumber for my time.
I respectfully disagree with the "responsibility to check insurance". As a property manager, it is his responsibility to be sure that all proper coverages are in place.
In Ohio, if a worker is injured while working on a Homeowner's property... and there is no WC coverage... the property owner falls into the "responsible party" group. Thus, why I recommend to anyone who has anyone working for them (contractor or not) to obtain a "compliance certificate" from the WC fund (costs $10 every 6 months... and will cover uninsured injuries).
If I hire a sub that has no insurance... and he damages a neighbor's house... the liability falls to me. It was my responsibility that the sub was there... thus I'm the "procuring cause"... thus I'm screwed LOL.
I get an "additional insured" cert on all of my subs (except one that it would cost additional to have me listed as such... so I have an "immediate notification contract" with their insurance company). This assures me that the sub has proper coverage... and I will be notified if the coverage is dropped, for any reason. Sub's insurance drops... I drop him (at least until he pays his insurance).
And respectfully... I would not dream of hiring a sub unless I had his insurance cert... no matter how small or big the job is. I get insurance certs from people who do work on my own house (even the Orkin guy... even though Orkin is a huge company).
I will admit that I am a bit paranoid.. for in my former life (risk manager).. I saw soooo many things happen that "could never happen".
I see the paranoia, but we are talking about different things here. You are hiring subcontractors directly under your chain of responsibility. He is acting as an agent and co-ordinator for the HO. The plumber is working for the HO and not for the agent. That lack of a direct money trail distorts the chain of responsibility.I could be wrong. I'm sure different insurance people would have different ways of approaching it and various lawyers would too, and there are also fifty different states with differing policies and precedents too.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The money trail will distort it a bit... and will be a defense if it were to get to court. The cost of defense would cost more than the demand for the money.
Any insurance company worth it's salt will go after him.. not as the agent for the HO (which could have it's own liability)... but as the "procuring cause". Pierre was the reason that the plumber was there (he procured the plumber's services).. thus he quite possibly can be found liable. Doesn't matter who pays the plumber under this approach.
As a second charge, they would claim he was negligent in his property management duties. "He should have turned the water off anyway; even if the plumber was willing to do the work without" would be the charge.
And as a third, they would claim he committed an errors and omissions violation by not verifying the insurance coverage of the plumber.
If the insurance company hit-man.. err.. I mean lawyer... wanted to be thorough.. he would probably toss in the "agent" charge.. just to torque Pierre off.
This maybe a bit off the thread, but I just put a kitchen in a new house with a finished walkout basement.Two weeks ago, I got a frantic call, the basement had an inch of water in there with the new cabinets, carpet, trim, and the works. The caller had been informed of the "flood" by the countertop installer with the wet sneakers and wanted to know if I knew how to reach the homeowner or GC. I only had the HO's home # and they were at work...anyway, I lost sleep that night wondering if I hit a pipe hanging cabinets in the laundryroom or something.Turns out it was meltwater backing up from the two sump pits. We had a big warm-up that melted all the snow around here (not normal for Jan. in Minnesota). The pits had no sump pumps installed. I was glad it wasn't me and my insurance paying for the damage, but I still wonder about where the buck will stop. Unforseen Act of Nature, Plumber, Homeowner, GC?
Edited 2/20/2005 5:02 pm ET by basswood
Out of curiosity... why no sumps? And the GC did not think it was important to have sumps installed why?
If it is a new house... and the sumps had not been installed... and the GC went ahead and completed work in the finished basement... my edumicated guess would be that it lies with the GC. At least as you describe it.
If the sumps failed... then it still ultimately falls to the GC. But he has remedies against the manufacturer of the sumps (if they were faulty), or against the plumber (if there was an installation issue).
FWIW, I have hit water pipes in the manner you were fearing. First time was no big deal... was able to stop the water with very little problems.
Other was in a $2mill house! I hit the pipe dead on (no shielding in a house that cost $2 mill!). The screw went in clean and through both sides of the copper pipe. It wasn't spraying enough water to make noise. Drip drip drip... 2 weeks. The HO went down to their finished basement after being away... and found their custom ceiling bulging with water! 2 weeks and many $$... I (and a few sub- contractors specializing in water damage) got it fixed. The whole install job was $500 (quicky day job). The cost of the repairs and dry out... $6k (and that was with the ceiling guy giving me a HUGE break)!
Luckily, the homeowners were REALLY cool about it. They had had so many issues with the house that they just "rolled with the flow".
I wish I could find the plumber that didn't shield those pipes originally. Stinking $5 in metal, and 15 minutes of his time, would have made all the difference in the world. Still can't figure out how he got an inspection without shielding it (pipe was pressed tight against drywall on interior staircase wall).
I have been in quite a few houses where the sump pits never had pumps installed. Some people must like to live on the edge. Maybe they were waiting to see if it ever had enough water in it to justify a pump, but for my money, a $100 pump is really cheap insurance.I also hit an unprotected pipe before, that is why I was nervous until I learned about the sump saga. When I hit the pipe about 10 years ago, I knew right away, and it cost me just time uninstalling & later reinstalling shelving & pipe & drywall repairs & texturing & painting. That's a few &'s and a few $.I once saw a leaky shower produce an aneurysm in the ceiling of a home. The latex paint was so flexible and strong it filled with water and looked like a cows udder hanging from the ceiling. It must have had about a gallon of water in there. My other screw in a pipe story is about a drywall screw run into a copper supply line. The screw plugged the hole it made for about six months, until, we presume, it rusted out enough to leak & the whole livingroom ceiling came down in a crash. You know the scene.Shielding pipes is even cheaper insurance than sump pumps, I have heard that the typical nail/screw stops plumbers use are a thinner gauge of metal than those electricians use, I suppose it is worse to get electrocuted or start a fire than a flood. Anyway, if it is true I would opt for the electrical nail stops even for plumbing.
Thanks RichfC.
My role is a bit unusual. I refer to myself as a "Landlord's Agent" in all business correspondence and documents. This means that I'm acting directly on behalf of my HO clients. I do not pay myself out of rents before turning the residual over to the Landlord like Property Managers do. All work I do is pre-authorized on a task by task basis. My obligations end as each task/job is completed. Otherwise, I'm the go-to guy, and I may or may not take on the next task. I am not obliged to run an answering service.
- My HO customers pay me a flat fee to find qualified tenants; I always prepare the language of the tenancy agreement, which they approve before it is signed. If the HO is in town, they sign the tenancy; if they're away, I sign as their Agent. Tenant hands me 12 postdated cheques which I mail to the HO. I invoice HO upon task completion. I do not collect rent monthly. I am the tenant's first go-to for service calls, and will respond IF I'm available.
- If I repair something myself, I charge either a flat-fee or by the hour, depending. If someone else comes in, the contractor always bills the HO directly. I bill HO a small mgt. fee, a flat % of contractor's invoice, with a built-in minimum. I do not mark up the Contractor's invoice in any way, nor do I tell the Contractor how to do his job. I tell them what results the HO wants. How to go about it is the tradesman's call.
In this particular case, I received the HO's specific approval to hire a licensed plumber. A couple years ago, before I became their Agent, they were very unhappy with one of the town's biggest plumbing contractors. Knowing this I recommended this dude, a one-man operation with a good rep. I did not ask about his insurance coverage. We're a very small rural town, so things are generally pretty lax in this regard.
Call in the insurance as soon as possible, I think you will have more damage inside the walls let them deal with it.
Call in the insurance as soon as possible
And be prepared to hear that most homeowner's insurance does not cover water damage, except by specific policy.
Some insurance agents have been known to work with the policy holder, though. If the plumber pays to get the water out, the insurance company might could repair any wall damage to prevent any future mold remediation claims.
Or they might not. Insurance companies can be like that.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
And the homeowner (if thats the insurance you call in to) should be prepared to pay an increase (or not, who knows!) thereafter.
I think insurance is best left for real disasters. And in this case, the homeowner is the furthest from blame of all involved. Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
I believe that most homeowners insurance doesn't cover FLOOD damage from sources OUTSIDE of the house. They do cover things related to pipes inside of the house.Not that I think the homeowners insurance should or should not be involved in this particular issue.
FLOOD damage from sources OUTSIDE of the house. They do cover things related to pipes inside of the house.
Mine didn't, under Texas law, until that law was changed last year. Floods are still explicitly excludes, but I now have non-flood water damage as part of the home owner's policy. Locations vary, so do the laws. Two years ago I had to have water damage as a separate policy. Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I wonder in Texas if that was really just related to the mold problem. My MIL lives in Texas, and she said her homeowners insurance tripled one year, and that was after a big increase the previous year. Insurance company said it was because of payouts on mold.
related to the mold problem
Mold after two years of major hail damage led to some carriers leaving the state, true enough. Insurance law in Texas until two years ago mandated homeowner's coverage, which meant insurers had to have texas-only policies. Or, that's my understanding of the changes USAA offered me on my HO policy.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Plumber is obviously the first in line. However, given that you are "managing the project... some of it falls to you (I know you don't want to hear this... but I figure better to hear it now than in court, if it goes that far).
Insurance may pay for it (as long as the proper coverages are in place). However, they will subrogate against anyone involved (plumber and "manager"). They will go after the plumber first... but given that he has no insurance, they will go after you for hiring a plumber with no insurance. Vicious cycle. Bottom line... the insurance company will be looking for someone to reimburse them.
Edited 2/19/2005 11:11 pm ET by Rich from Columbus
The thought was in the back of my mind. ;)
Rich, the insurance word you are looking for is subrogate.
I think the first person in line for responsibility is Pierre. He was being paid by the owner to effect and/or oversee the repairs, and he selected and contracted with the plumber. If he was uncomfortsable with the plumber doing the work under pressure, he should have insisted that the city turn off the water.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
Oops... spell checkers aren't all they are cracked up to be. Thanks! It's fixed.
You're right Ed, I could have.
I talked about it with the plumber, itemized what I wanted to avoid. He assures me there's no problem. He's the pro so I didn't overule. In retrospect, I could have said it's this way, or someone else does the job.
Would the homeowner I'm Agent for have decided otherwise and sent the guy packing? Probably not, but maybe. The decision-making standard is probably higher for me since I offer services, so would this be negligence on my part?
Subrogate. I don't like that word. :(
I hope Piffin's right about the lack of a direct money trail establishing the nature of the relationship. :)
Edited 2/19/2005 11:25 pm ET by Pierre1
This is one of those deals that sucks!
We all can see that really, the plumber was a bit cocky. And it blew up in his face. I know if I were the plumber, and this happened, I would be doing my best to minimize things. Bill for my time? Uh...I don't think so!
And I would offer to be paying the bills that Pierre has mentioned. Really, considering the nature of the event, the result is very minor. I'd be writing checks and thanking my stars it wasn't ten times worse....
On the other hand, if the plumber does decide to be a jerk about it, this whole thing could really run up the chain of command. A lawyer friend once joked about some of the classes offered in law school, such as "How to bill hours by driving around making sure foreclosure signs are still displayed" and "How to research and find the best souce of money in any liability case".... I never decided whether he was joking or not, but in this case, the latter class will prove dangerous ...if the plumber decides to be a weasel.
Lets hope the plumber is a stand up guy...Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
"1/2" galvy pipe from the City main..."
And water still flows through this pipe? Man, I'd have that all replaced too.
I was wondering how they only got 180 gallons of water in all the time it took to shut of.
I'm with Ed Hilton on this.
I think the plumber did a stupid negligent thing, but Pierre was the one who's responsibility it was to hire a competent, insured plumber. He knew the main should be shut at the street, and he should have insisted on it.
To let the plumber have his way in this situation was pure negligence.
If it happened to me, I'd be kicking myself in the arse for not making the plumber call for the main to be shut.
$25.00.........real cheap insurance.
I have a sneaking suspicion that the plumber had a reason for not wanting to call the town for the shut off too.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Eric, the plumber may be very competent. He just wanted to save a little time, and he has probably done that type of work several times before with no problems. You might be right about not wanting to alert the city for other reasons, but maybe it was also a scheduiling issue.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
I've read through to the end.
I feel like I am missing something now.
I never said the plumber was incompetent, just that he did something stupid, made a mistake, he took a chance and lost.
I would never let a plumber go near old 1/2 galvanized with out shutting down the main, you are only asking for trouble.
I an unfinished basement or in a garage; maybe.
But in a finished basement??
Why is everyone coming to the defense of an uninsured tradesman?
BIG question...........how does an UNINSURED plumber carry a license????
NOT in my town. No insurance, no license, whether you passed the test or not.
Just my 2 cents.
Like I said, I feel like I am missing something.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Maybe he's self insured?
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Or self assured.
be roarin'"Live Free, not Die"
Or self assured.
overly; apparently.I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
oh, you too now huh?
Pierre said he had NO INSURANCE to cover the loss.
I'm not trying to take the guy down, just get the story straight thats all.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Read it thru again. I never defended the plumber and I agree with you that the fact he is in business implies to the public that he carries the proper insurance. Insurance fo rhim is beside the point anyway. It is to protect HIM and if he is stoopid enough to work without it and to work on live water lines without it, he deserves the shaft on this.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
heh heh
Ya, Pierre was the smart one here by jumping ship when he saw the deck was listing sideways.
be he who fights and runs away..."Live Free, not Die"
I never said the plumber was incompetent, Well, you did say this in #20:
Pierre was the one who's responsibility it was to hire a competent, insured plumber.
And to me that implied that he wasn't competent. I'm not defending the plumber ... not completelyt asnyway. But Pierre said he was experienced, and even experienced competent craftsman make judgement errors sometimes. Read enough posts here and it seems that everyone has a bad day once in a while.
I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.
I'm having trouble grasping 120 PSI coming through a 70 year old 1/2" galvanized supply pipe.
Must have been shooting a few feet I'd say; like 50!
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
"I'm having trouble grasping 120 PSI coming through a 70 year old 1/2" galvanized supply pipe."
You could have 120 psi through an 1/8" pipe, psi has nothing to do with pipe diameter. GPM would be effected by pipe diameter.
You are correct sir. The numerous galvanized pipes I've run into have been so corroded that there are literally pinholes left for water to come through. Mainly on the hot water side.
City can't find their shutoff at the curb, so they open two manholes and shut whole block down.
I'm thinking the plumber knows more than you'all are giving him credit for."Live Free, not Die"
good reading between the lines!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
If he didn't have insurance, he likely does not have a current license.
Hows that for reading between the lines?
Am I missing something or are you now defending the uninsured plumber?
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
What?
That the city would have a hard time finding the shut off??
So what, he gambled on 25 bucks and lost big time.
If he didn't have insurance, he likely does not have a current license.
Hows that for reading between the lines?
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
Whoa Eric, no need to get riled up here. Was just an observation.
Was just saying I wouldn't be ready to hang the guy out to dry yet tho'.
Not enough background on the scenario.
Bet if the guy had it to do over now he would approach things differently.
"Live Free, not Die"
Edited 2/20/2005 7:02 pm ET by razz
It's called passion razz.
I feel like I missed something and I'm trying to figure it out.
Normally by this time, any guy with no insurance would have been skinned and quarted.
Just wondering why this ones getting stroked, inspite of causing a significant amount of damage to a clients home.
That's serious stuff in my book.
I can't have a license to practice home improvement in my municipality unless i am properly insured.
The plumbers around here answer to a higher authority yet and I don't believe their license is valid without proof of proper insurance.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
I'm guessing on what little knowledge of the situation is known that it being a rental with continual plumbing problems with Roaring 70yr old 1/2" galvanized or iron pipe feed run from the street with 120lb pressure means that the whole system is a big fart and you don't want to breath on anything or you end up vibrating a galvanized that goes to iron that goes to an old copper union that is reactioned toast coated with accumulated decades of a bees nest size of old plumbers putty that finally stopped the leak that goes to a length of lead that goes to copper again that connects to some old gray butyl that hooks to some pvc that somebody used contact cement on that hooks to a run of pex that somebody used when Pierre was away on vacation and it is still working and with the right move can make it keep going or a wrong that can annilate the whole shebang whichs means it ain't worth messing with anymore so you gotta do the redo and be a big buck outlay for the cheap rental which nobody ever wants to do but he'll help his acquaintance out and try it cause he thinks he can do it when no one else will touch it without a four figured equation in the mix.
be wishing every plumbing job was a dripping faucet"Live Free, not Die"
I'd say that about sums it up there yankee!
ONE HUGE FART READY TO BLOW THE WHOLE PLACE UP!!!!
Funny thing is, it did!
............someone say something about being riled up??I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
[email protected]
LOL - you're pretty close too.
Why only 180 gal? Because the main split at the fitting but remained attached. Water pizzed out sideways instead of full-bore. Lucky in our misfortune I guess.
Out of curiosity, I tried to figure out how many gal/minute a 1/2" pipe would deliver at 120 psi, but couldn't find a formula that didn't drag in Reynolds numbers and so on.
I'm wondering what the actual interior diameter of that half inch galvy would be after 70years of eating red meat and egg yolks 3 times a day? :o)"Live Free, not Die"
I replaced some 50 year old that looked like new.So much similarity. The main shutoff dripples and the water pressure is well over a 100 psi. But I waited until it got 1/2 way across the basement before I transistioned. Wnated to leave lots of old pipe increase there was a problem.I redid a "bath room" (concrete block walls over floor drain, stool without any partions) in the basement. About 1/3 of the pipes had alreeady been replaced with copper. Mostly for the 1st floor.All of the steel pipe was clean except for a very light coating of calcium. Just enough to make it look white on t he inside.Except for one place where they had connected to copper without a dielectric. That was all full of junk on the inside and paper thin.The elbow crack when I tried to screw in the dielectric. Had to replace the riser with copper to the 1st flr vanity. Luckly it was in an 6" wall and after butchering out the subfloor from the basement work out the old riser and replace it with copper.
Must be water quality in different regions.
I replaced a city water to the house line, 1/2in galvanized, that was so packed in there that the flow opening was the diameter of a small straw.
Kept a section of the pipe 'cause I couldn't believe it.
be crusty
"Live Free, not Die"
Edited 2/21/2005 10:29 am ET by razz
Edited 2/22/2005 1:52 pm ET by razz
Like the 50y.o. pipe Bill Hartmann found, this one was clean-clean-clean. Pretty amazing.
I'll try to remember to take a pic of the two foot length I kept."Live Free, not Die"
That old pipe delivering a straw's worth of water reminds me of an old aunt who lived in an even older building. The guest room and bathroom was upstairs. Shower gave out enough cold water to fill a juice glass in a minute or so. Never heard tell of anyone overstaying their welcome. ;)
To all who've generously helped:
I told the Landlord that I felt somewhat conflicted in this matter, and why, and encouraged both parties to speak directly. The Landlord and the plumber came to an agreement yesterday evening: Plumber pays for water extraction, carpet removal, cleaning and deodorizing off-site ($800), plus he will not invoice for the work or materials (+/- $350). Landlord will pay to replace the carpet underpadding ($500). The plumber came through most honorably and I feel he responded in a professional way. The Landlord seems happy, all things considered.
I checked the inside of all perimeter walls (drilled 3/8" holes and spun a twisted piece of wire in the wall cavity to extract insul. samples) and found no insulation near the bottom plates. The landlord informs me that the walls were only insulated to just below frost line. Talk about a lucky break!
The whole place dried up real quick...and the four big blowers have been going 24hrs/day for 5 days now. The place feels dry and smells good. Carpets are coming back tomorrow. I just need to nail down a few sprung baseboards, install underpadding and carpets, and reposition the furniture.
I've certainly learned a few lessons on this one, one of which is that any plumbing work done remotely close to a house's main shutoff only gets done once the plumber gets the City to turn water off at the curb. And I will be there to make sure it happens. I should have insisted on this but let myself be persuaded out of it. The other lesson is that insurance can be a good thing.
Thanks again.
Glad to hear it all worked out. Your landlord client could have been a pain on this one... and he deserves kudos for working through it in a seemingly business-like fashion.
And yes... insurance IS a good thing ... except when you make a claim, have to pay the premium, go through an insurance audit, get on the phone them, or for that matter... have any dealings at all with them!! Just like the old saying bout the fairer sex.. "can't live with 'em, can't live without 'em... but they do have all of the...(oh well, I can't post the rest of my particular take on THAT topic! LOL).
Thanks. Let me help you out:
...the booty?
Since you haven't filled in your profile I don't know where you are... state? province? overseas?
After reading through the entire thread, I think that you and the plumber should be damn glad to pay all bills 50/50. It would undoubtedly be the least expensive route to go. Paying now is nearly always the best solution. Forget some notion about who is responsible. Focus strictly on fast and friendly resolution.
You might also want to have an attorney draw up a release for all parties, once this is settled.
Who would prevail if such-and-such went to court?
Forget any nonsense about court being fair or just... it's closer to a crap shoot.
If you live in Colorado and the owner wanted to push it, I'm fairly certain that your A$$ would be grass.
You refer to yourself as an agent of the owner. In that position, what do YOU think that your fiduciary responsibility is to the owner. I wouldn't want to be anyone's agent without being insured.
You mentioned that you write the wording for legal documents used in the leasing of property. I'm pretty sure that if you charge for writing such documents you are guilty of practicing law without a license. This is not to say that you can't write them up... you just can't charge... but IMO you'd also be liable for anything that goes wrong between owner and tennant.
All in all, for your own protection, I'd say you should take this experience as a wake up call! You should not only pay whatever part of the bill, but should also bump up your own knowledge and professionalism a few steps. You'll sleep better. Your customer will be better protected and will also likely raise their opinion of you and your capabilities. Customer will likely do same when stand up and offer to pay part out of your own pocket. And positively impressed customers are better for your business than all the advertising you could buy.
And, yes, of course, I learned about this the hard and stupid way. : )
I'm thankful for the loyal opposition! It's hard to learn much from those who simply agree with you.
Thanks for the good advice.
British Columbia
Just out of curiosity, can the plumbers not turn of the water at the street in your community by law or something? I thought most plumbers carried one of those big 'T' type wrenches around to do this.
Some municiples frown on anyone even touching their shutoffs and will beat you with a club if you do.
Other municiples welcome it to ease their work load.
In this situation it was said even the qualified city workers couldn't find the shutoff to the house so they had to back up to a shutoff that effected other homes in the vicinity as well.
Me thinks that is why the plumber decided to throw the dice on this one, an unforunate gamble that didn't pay off.
Hey, he coulda been the hero, if just for one day.
be some ya win, some ya lose."Live Free, not Die"
The City's shutoff is buried maybe 12" below grade in the back alley, on City land. Only they 'know' where these are...and they're quite proprietary about the shutoffs. Shutting off is free, turning the water back on costs $25 on the spot. Water dept. uses a metal detector to locate, unfortunately, there were many stray signals from metal (nails, scrap) accumulated over the last 80 years and they couldn't figure out where to dig. Having snow on the ground did not help. Days after the event, I asked the City if they were going to do a GPS survey of their shutoffs, and they sort of shrugged.