Sometime came up today that caused me to disagree with my helper. He and I were working on opposite sides of a wall to remove some rotten joists from above the wall. While pulling on a joist he became unbalanced and stepped off his step ladder, and onto a ShopVac nozzle. The nozzle broke and he told me. My opinion was that he had to pay for the nozzle because he had been careless in placing it where he would step when exiting the ladder. His opinion was that I had to pay because laborers as a rule do not pay for damage they cause while on the job. Who is right?
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One would think that negligance requires the labourer to pay. However if the equipment breaks due to regular/normal use then the "company" should pay.
The question becomes was this negligent?
So the guy had an accident and you don't want to cover the cost of a shop vac nozzle?
Wow.
What do ya do when he miscuts something and you have to use more material?
Guess you can tell I think the employer pays. My helper a few weeks ago was tired and cranky on Sat morn and screwed up a screen door frame side.....how do ya think paid him for a full day..and payed for the new frame?
That's what helpers do...sometimes they work with ya...sometimes ya have to watch them better. Either way..it's up to you.....
And if they keep wasting materials or stepping on shop vac parts.....it's up to you to decide whether or not to fire them.
Jeff
.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
Jeff is right. But let's look at it another way. You force him to pay for it. What type of attitude, and work, can you expect from him in the future, and I might add, deservedly.
Better dock him everytime he has to shapen a "company'" carpenter's pencil too, for reducing it's lifetime use. How about for also bending nails too by not hitting them hard enough?
Steping on a string line wasting chalk?
Also for not using that shop vac fast enough, thereby reducing it's usable lifetime?
Wait a minute! If you have to pick him up or drive him home, how about the loss of gas mileage due to the added weight of his body. Don't forget the weight of his bagged lunch also.
Sonny, Great to see ya herre again, I was just thinking about you yesterday...Hows "our"pool is it working yet? Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
'an i thot i wus cheap.
PS: My dear old Pa was personnel manager of a railroad in the 60's and 70's. Foremen were given classes even then that if any type worker has a near mishap (whole bigger ball game if an ankle was twisted even) the foreman IMMEDIATELY inquires about the welfare of the worker, not about any damaged equipment, even a derailed loco! Betch the tort lawyers would like to get ahold of .............
Edited 10/8/2002 12:16:11 AM ET by JUNKHOUND
practical man practicalHalf of good living is staying out of bad situations.
Forget the primal scream, just Roar!
OK, its clear I'm way off here. I'll pay for the nozzle, and whatever else my laborer breaks in the coming weeks.
Lets shift gears a little: is there ever a situation when a laborer would be expected to be finanically responsible for their decisions? Or, (from the perspective of the laborer) does being hired to work for someone free you from all responsibility regarding your decisions, and assure you that the worst that can happen, no matter what you do, is loose your job? What if, for an extreem example, through their sheer foolishness they destroy your brand new $30,000 work truck and all the tools in it? Ask them to help cover your losses, or just fire them and suck it up?
This is where insurance comes into play.
At the least, your new employee should know he is responsible for x, y, and z, up front, before he agrees to hire on.
For many years, I owned a taxi in this here city. Insurance had a $500.00 deductible. I cannot count the number of times a driver had an accident and I (or my partner) paid the deductible.
If a labourer destroyed my van, I would call my insurance company and go looking for a new truck.
If I lost all my tools in the acident, I would have to dip into my reserve fund (your accountant should have set it up for you), and buy new ones.
When you get to the stage where you want people to be responsible for tools, materials and the like, hire subcontractors. At my age, my fingers & knees arrive at work an hour after I do.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
I think you need to spend some time researching and understanding labor laws. You can not dock the wages of an employee for losses. You can only let them go and then you had better have a good reason depending on your state laws. And while your at it, even if you a two man shop, what safety training are you providing? What if the worker had broken his neck? How's your liability insurance to protect the owner your doing work for and how is workers comp? You get what you pay for. If you hire and unskilled labor then the broken nozzle comes with the baggage.
Hmmmm. I won't take umbruge at your post since I'm sure you did not read what I wrote. I agreed with everyone else that you cannot dock etc.
How I really know it was not my post, was because at the bottom of my post is my home city and country. We don't have states here.
Hope you don't cut wood that way. :)At my age, my fingers & knees arrive at work an hour after I do.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
Sorry,
I was replying to the beginning thread. We don't cut wood here. We chisel rock:-)))
Las Vegas, Nevada
Are you sure that "for cause" clauses are that wide-spread ? I thought most states were like Ontario in that you do not require cause to separate an employee. What you cannot do is separate an employee for a proscribed cause (age, race, religion)..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
In the lower Provences, only those that have a right to work law do not need to show cause to fire. It is oxi moron is a way. It is really a right to fire law, not a right to work.
I thought it was only the near-communist governments, like Italy and France, that granted life-time dancing lessons to employees ! Was't "right to work" legislation intended to prevent unions from becoming an employment gate-keepers. .
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
Right to work laws were instituted to kill unions. The housing industry shot themselves in the foot when they go rid of unions. Good or bad, (don't tell me how bad unions are when you have Enrons and Worldcoms, etc,) the unions provided a trained work force. Today you have anyone showing up on a job site with a hammer and a set of nail bags and they are hired as a carpenter. Less training of a labor force and less regulation of Contractors, and we will really start to look a third world country. Isn't time everyone stopped blaming communist? Just how many successful communist governments are left (China has become a Capitalist Distatorship)? An untrained workforce leads to construction defects. Consumers should be alert to check out the credentials of anyone who sets foot on their property. The beginning of this thread bothers me, because it appears maybe someone should have been working off staging or scaffolding rather than step ladders?
Sorry Jmarcus007- I've got to side with the others. If your employee breaks the customers window you pay and if it is a large expenditure your insurance pays. As for the the truck and all the tools........Nobody touches my truck!Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Dek..Dude where you been hiding..great to see ya here again Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Great to be seen Ron- LOL- Been real busy trying to make ends meet. They finally did when I started cutting on the proper side of the line :-)
Good to be back, I'll start posting more on the 1200 sq.ft. ironwood deck in the gallery real soon.Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
A couple of years ago, one of my helpers, tapping in some birdblocking on a second-story dormer, lost the piece and it landed on the hood of my 2-week-old, still shiny-with-temp-plates pickup. He fessed up before I even was aware of the dents. I appreciated his honesty more than being pi$$ed about his carelessness.
I agree with others that sometimes you just have to eat bad outcomes. If an employee builds a history of carelessness, send him packing. If your guy had fallen off the ladder and broken his ankle, you'd have paid for that! Be grateful to the Shopvac for breaking his fall and maybe saving you a Worker's Comp claim.
Notch-
just a different way to look at things- you parked your truck in harms way and it found you. People working overhead... who is careless?
Just curious...isn't parking your new truck underneath your worker about the same thing as the laboror parking the shop vac nozzle under foot?
Something like that. Actually, the truck was about 30 feet from the building. I could go into the trajectory of a piece of blocking being knocked into a tight spot, flipping out of it's intended home, bouncing off a roof below and caroming onto my truck, but it's been a long day and the math is too complicated and besides, the truck is fixed, the block was properly installed, the house is finished and being lived in.
And my helper? He is now a remodeling contractor himself and drives a new Chevy van with a ladder rack....in Washington state.
Jim Blodgett used to work for you ???
: )Don't bogart the Ghost
Quittin' Time
This has been an interesting thread...to say the least! I think I was taking the term "tapping" to lightly! :o)
Some 20+ years ago, I was putting a new deck on a floating home on lake union...yes, I'm from WA. also. (But don't think I ever worked for you.) Uh...what color was your truck?
Anyhow, on the first day of demolition, my helper immediatly dropped a crowbar in the lake! I was thinking that the next item he'd drop might be my skillsaw or something a lot more expensive. So my comment to him was something like "Okay, that was your freebee...the next thing you drop you pay for, or bring your own tools."
Guess what? He didn't show up for work the next day! Since then, I have learned that you just have to 'grin and bare it ' if you are going to have your guys use your stuff, and it gets broken, unless I want to do all the work yourself.
Did the whole job by myself...never dropping any tools in the lake! Oh yeah, I didn't get away completely unscathed. Sent 'Davey Jones' one really small present...my truck keys!
Dropping tools on trucks....once, when green, I was on a job in Ottawa, doing restoration work to what is now the British High Commisioners rez (formerly the home of the Canadian Prime Minister Sir John A. MacDonald)....beautiful old, pre-Confederation house n the Ottawa river. We built and installed something like 150 windows, and a bunch of other stuff, including doing some bas relief stuff to a fascia board on a tall, one story wing wing of the house....doesn't matter what it was, really, but it involved me hanging over the side of the (flat) roof, with another guy on my legs so I wouldn't topple, while I hung upside down and nailed the stuff on....and no, not the smartest way to do it, but not my call.
The day we were doing this, was one of many when the diplomatic crowd showed up to lunch, or whatever they do...Daimlers, Rolls, Bentleys, etc....lined up in a row, chauffers hanging out waiting....and me, hung upside down like a bat, over the room where they were doing lunch,trying to get the last pieces on before we were shushed, which happened a lot....then I dropped my hammer. Straight down, 20-30 feet, missed a limo by a hair....and all I could see in my minds eye was that hammer, next time, bouncing from Daimler to Rolls to Bentley to me on skid row, with embassy staff coming down on their spare afternoons to kick me black and blue. Thankgod, someone pulled the plug on us that afternoon.
Someday, I'll tell you how I broke a major artifact in the museum I worked at....I have like two black hairs left in a field of gray.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
One thing I ALWAYS ask of people before I commence with any pounding, or sawing or ripping on their home is to PLEASE remove any collectibles or fragiles from walls or shelves.
Several years ago, remodeling a store space in a strip mall, I heard the shattering of glass in the adjoining furniture store. I dashed next door to find several employees and the store owner staring mortified at a pile of broken glass that had, just a few moments before, been an expensive set of handblown lamp bases.
They were gracious and faulted themselves for displaying the pieces on shelves attached to drywall with DW screws and refused my offer to pay damages, but it was a major wakeup call for me.
Someday, I'll tell you how I broke a major artifact in the museum I worked at....I have like two black hairs left in a field of gray.
Tell us now Adrian, and while we're doing true confessions -
I was cutting some holes in fine floors for air supply vents. Had a vac hose hooked up to the saw and somehow, as I set it down after a cut, the hose mde it rock over and let the gaurd roll so I eneded up with one of those half moon shaped gouges running across the floor. I got sick to my stomach thinking about trying to find matching wood and the cost of refinishing the whole room. (We all know insurance is only good until you have to use it and mine is a high deductable)
I called the owner into the room for the confession and discussion. He just said, "Don't worry about it, that's where the couch goes. We'll deal with it next time we remodel." Whew! I didn't charge for thqat day's work though.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
I work on some vacation homes and boat houses on a lake down here near Coos Bay from time to time and, believe me, the lake bed is littered with tools from years and years and many builders working over the water. The big things, like chainsaws and tablesaws are usually retrieved by going after them before they disappear into the muck on the bottom. But smaller power tools, hammers and chisels, etc. are usually lost forever.
The most common item lost is framing squares, because they can drop right between the plank gaps on a dock. Anymore, when I work out there, I take plastic framers and speed squares that will float and I'm pretty careful with other tools as well.
I was working with another contractor a few years ago and one day we drove to Eugene to pick up some equipment. While there we stopped by an industrial supply known for it's inventory of oddball stuff. My friend spotted a selection of follower springs for a variety of hammer tackers and picked up a replacement for one of his staplers that had spit its spring into the lake. I suggested he buy two, since they were hard to find. He reluctantly agreed, but the next day, out on the lake, while installing one of the new springs into the stapler, it sprung out of his hand, and into the lake. He gave me a look, then installed his second spring.
I believe there are things called 'insurance companies' that will cover the loss of material goods, like $30,000 trucks. These companies, so I've heard through the grapevine, also insure 'tools' and other things like 'liability', 'injury' and 'medical costs' over and above the 'deductible.' I'm given to understand the 'deductible' is there to prevent frivolous claims for minor things like a $10 vacuum hose nozzle. It might be worth checking this out as a cost of 'doing business.' This cost of 'doing business' is usually 'chargeable' to the 'customer' as an 'indirect expense' or 'overhead.' At least,--- that's what I do. As an employer, you take the risk, and you reap the profit. If your employee is an incompetent liability, then you exhibited bad judgement as an employer, and you fire him/her-- or euphemistically, you 'let them go.' You don't make them responsible for your incompetence as a hirer and as an unskilled employer. Would you ever consider rewarding that employee with a $1,000 bonus for saving your arse when he could have just dropped you in it? Slainte.
Website
Edited 10/8/2002 12:52:08 AM ET by Sgian Dubh
"Lets shift gears a little: is there ever a situation when a laborer would be expected to be finanically responsible for their decisions?"
I'll bite on that one.
If I make it clear to the helper what I want from him. Let's say we are re-roofing a house with lots of little sections. One area is a porch with that plastic / fibreglass sheets to let light in thru the roof. You tewll the guys not to walk on that roof because it might break and we haven't bid for replacing it. You provide a plan, tools and equipment to avoid needing to walk on it.
Ten minutes later one of them is walking on that roof. You repeat your instructions.
An hour later, you have to ask hium why he is back walking on that piece of plastic roofing. "It's easier for me to tear off these other shingles from here so I don't have to bend over so far"
Your reply has to be one of two things;
"Get off the roof and go home before you end up breaking that"
or
"OK, go ahead if you want, but I'm taking the cost of it out of your wages - hear me?
Here's another one;
You set up a job and tell the crew, "This is the area we are working in. The customer does not want us in any other part of the house. He wants to keep it all clean, amoung other reasons"
Next morning you find one of the crew trackingt mud into the forbidden part of that house.
Willful abuse, misconduct, or negligence is reason for docking pay as well as termination. .
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, do you pay a generous $7-8 an hour or so to a labourer to go with those instructions, and do you expect them to have an analytical brain to go with that level of pay? What do you expect for a top whack $16 an hour carpenter, with no benefits, running his own truck, and supplying all his own tools? Not a surgically precise smart-arse for one, I'd wager. Last weekend, I spotted an advert for 'skilled restorer required for mantlepieces, stairs and furniture. Inside the Loop for architectural salvage company. $8- $10- per hour. Houston'-- something like that anyway. I just went, "huh!!!" And followed that up with, 'they must be joking,' or maybe not, this being south TX,. America, even, richest nation in the world. Nah. couldn't possibly be? It was a misprint? Maybe they really were serious?' For $8 an hour, I wouldn't expect anyone to be able to fart and sh-i-t synchronously(sp?), let alone be a responsible worker. Slainte.
Website
Edited 10/8/2002 1:58:29 AM ET by Sgian Dubh
Know what you mean but I always pay a little above ave. then can the ones that can't or won't work up to standard..
If a guy is going to continually disregard or ignore, he's gone quick.
Seriously, if he can't follow insrtuctions and is constantly not watching wherer he's walking, he's a danger to himself and others.
I'm curious how much the duster breaker is getting paid?
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 10/8/2002 2:34:50 AM ET by piffin
Sgian
I know that this doesn't have anything to do with the thread but are you kidding about the pay in the Houston area? My wife is considering a transfer to San Marcos area and I'm not going to move to make $10 an hour!
Hopefully things aren't that bad, are they?
Doug
Doug, I found the advert, and I quote it below. I'd say even for Houston it's a bit on the low side. $10 an hour isn't going to buy anyone with any real skill, even here. You could phone the number and see if they really are serious, and I'd bet they are. Waged woodwhackers in Houston seem to top out at about $16+ an hour. I'm going to go back to the Houston Chronicle websiteand see if I can add a link to the actual advert. "Inside Loop" means inside the 610 Loop, the freeway that circles the city, it being about 20 miles in diameter. Pay for carpenters in this part of the world is not, well, generous. Wood butchers such as you and I fall into the category of expendable labouring classes as far as I can tell. Working conditions tend to be just a little, uuhhm, basic--- certainly they are in cabinet shops, which is what I know having never been a site joiner or carpenter. Air conditioning in workshops is for wussies, and as long as you're okay with sweating like a dog for about 8 months of the year, you'll be happy. Bosses tend to be a bit cheap-- for example, they want their staff to pay for tools that get broken accidentally on the job, and often there are no benefits offered, such as no vacation, no sick pay, no medical, etc.. If you can speak a language other than English, that may be helpful too, ha, ha.
I may fail to be able to add the link, but you could do a search on Google. Try this, it might work. http://houstonchronicle.abracat.com/c2/employment/search/index.xml and type in carpenter as the keyword. if the link works, you should find the actual advert. No guarantee that the link will work though. San Marcos wages tend to be a bit lower again, or so I've heard, ha, ha. My tongue is so firmly buried in my cheek, it's almost in my ear. Some dark wry humour is intended in this post too. Slainte, RJ.
"CARPENTER - ARCHITECTURAL Antique Shop needs experienced Carpenter to repair doors, mantels, furniture, etc. $8-$10/hr. Inside Loop. 713-528-3808."Website
Richard, I kinda liked this one:
Carpenter/Cabinet Maker with tools and truck. SW Houston. Only skilled need apply. Call 713-528-5188.
I can see it it now.... Uh yeah sure boss got all my own tools but havent go a clue how to use em. Got em at a swap meet. Oh yeah, the pickup truck... well its stolen but don't tell nobody. Eight bucks and hour... I make more than that on unemployment... When do I start.
Doug , I only know one thing about that area . Something like 30 percent of the factory jobs have been lost . A lot of plants are running 50 percent , which is above the ones that went belly up in the previous year. Add problems from Mexico. Im not making a statement about carpentry , but you know how it is when people get layed off. The construction industry fills up quick. Prices have always meant demand.
Tim Mooney
San Marcos is halfway between Austin & San Antonio, about 30-40 miles to either one. Not a big town, but nice, has a college, not much industry, big Wal-Mart distribution center. Home building in Austin & San Antonio is doing pretty well. In general, Austin pays better for most evereything. If she takes the transfer, you'd do well to live closer to one of the big cities so you could take advantage of the jobs there. People do commute from here to Austin everyday, and commuting to San Marcos for school is very common.
Thanks Tim and Elcid, didnt mean to take over this thread with my situation but when I saw someone from nearby I thought it was a good time to ask.
Going down in a couple weeks to look around, I'll try the Austin area first, really appreciate the info, maybe I should just stay here in Iowa but it seems like a good deal for the wife. Lived in OK in the 80's so the heat doesnt scare me.
Thanks
Doug
SA depends on the Edwards Aquifer for ALL its water, and every year (without fail) we go to water rationing about June because the aquifer level drops below some arbitrary level. Austin is farther enough north that it gets more rain and thus stays greener. Also, they have a lake, so if water sports are part of your interest, there's nothing to comopare in SA. There is also a place called Hippie Hollow that is a skinny dippin beach on the lake. I offered to help apply the sun tan lotion, but my DW said she wanted to go too, so that trip was cancelled. Traffic is much worse in Austin, especially the north side, but you would probably be south so that wouldn't be an issue. And of course Austin has a professional football team, the UT Longhorns (of course they're pro, and so is every other big college team).
"Going down in a couple weeks to look around,"
Make it 2 and a half to three weeks, and stop by for TexFest.
November 2 and 3 at James DuHamel's place.
: )
Don't bogart the Ghost
Quittin' Time
Not joking at all about the rates of pay Doug. We are fairly ' low-cost' down here in Houston, everything from wages to houses, to cost of living as compared to the US west coast and US east coast.. Austin is a tad more expensive-- well, lots more expensive. I wasn't joking about the rather 'difficult' working conditions though. They are reality. Slainte. Website
Piffin
I don't think that the wage and hour boards (state labor laws) will allow to dock the pay for damages.
I know that you can't dock a cashier if the till comes up short.
But nothing prevents you from firing the person. And if the damage is worth it then you could sue them.
That may be, I've never tried it. If the labor is that bad, I just show them the road..
Excellence is its own reward!
Or, (from the perspective of the laborer) does being hired to work for someone free you from all responsibility regarding your decisions, and assure you that the worst that can happen, no matter what you do, is loose your job?
Oh dear, can't seem to shaddupalready on this topic.
You would have to ask the laborer, I expect, but I'd wager less than half feel as I do; laborers, in general, are a transient group. If I was that laborer, working for you, I'd do my best to get a good recommendation before I left, and I would be looking to leave ASAP, but you can't be a worse boss than my Bro (even other tradesmen on the job complained abt how he treated me)!
Different employers provided different levels of supplies--a bigtime tile contractor did not supply dust masks when we demo'd, my smalltime Bro did.
It depends on the trade--no tile contractor expects his laborers to each arrive w/a wet saw, and none would charge them if the saw breaks while they are cutting tile.
Likewise, if the laborer loses his balance and ruins the tile, hey, that's just a job hazard, but employee safety should be foremost.
Except for me, Bro has treated his laborers like jewels--one employee has been with him, off and on, for 15 years and now owns houses in both Tijuana and San Diego.
Over the years, more contractors supplied more tools. I've been out of the trade for quite a while, but Bro supplies shirts, hats, drywall knives and blades, dust masks, and who knows what all else. Wish my back allowed me to do this type of work.
Hope you find a solution that works for you. Personally, I will bend over backwards for a boss who does the same for me. Perhaps you didn't express yourself as well as you might have liked, but I got the impression that you really weren't concerned abt this helper's health. Should that be true, you either need to work solo or do a 180 mindset IMHO.
Sonny , its good to see you here .
Prodeck, its also good to see you here.
I wish you boys would post more here , anyway, its good to see your comany.
Tim Mooney
What about all of MY pain and suffering? I'll never be the same again.
signed,
the shop vac nozzle
LOL I feel your pain!
just a little note to cheer you up, who owns the business, who gets the lions share of the profit from the work, who is responcible to the customer, who is responcible for the health and welfare of the employees, who will get the credit for the completed job, who is the one that is libel if a mishap should ocur(any mishap).
Take note if the ship sinks its the captains fault no matter who caused it to sink and its also the captain that will get the credit if the battle is won no matter who won it for him.
so if you own the business and you have employees then my advice is get gooood insurance and a big bottle of tums. also if you hire someone to hold the dumb end of the stick make sure that they know what a stick looks like before you hire them.An adventure is an unplanned journey!
I see it as you being the employer are responsible for any and all expenses. Those that work for you do so because you hired them thus your responsability. Unless you`re going to start paying them extra every time they save you money, I dont see it as fair to charge them if it costs you money. Those that start to cost more than theyre worth shouldnt be around long anyhow.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
no
is there ever a situation when a laborer would be expected to be finanically responsible for their decisions?
substitute "employee" for "laborer" as the position they hold is not relevant. In the normal course of business, the employer is financially liable for all the actions of the employee... that's why you have insurance or a bond. If the actions of the employee constitute a crimminal offense of some kind that the employee knowingly entered into, that may be grounds for financial indemnification. If the employees actions are outside of the normal business environment, but utilizing company property, there may be liability. For example, you employee crashes your company truck at 2am while legally intoxicated resulting in injuries; the employer may be responsible or perhaps not. If the employer did not take reasonable action to prevent the misuse of company property, or had knowledge of the employees behavior (drinking problem, at the bar with him/her, etc.), then liability would likely be assumed, but the employees liability in this case would not be excused either.
By the way, when he lost his balance on the ladded, I hope the first thing you said was "are you okay?". If not, you may wish to consider the kind of atmosphere you are creating and how that will impact worker productivity and satisfaction.
Just curious, but how much did that nozzle cost? Also, did he know (i.e., did you tell him) to keep all tools out of reach in case he became unbalanced?
Warn your next helper.
Oh, and what if he had tripped over that nozzle and landed in the hospital. What then?
Are you starting to feel like a pincushion yet?
Excellence is its own reward!
Man! You sound like my first boss. I whacked my head on the forklift and he told me not to bleed on the truck.
sometimes board sometimes knot
There is that little bird again!
Listen carefully.
Do you hear him?
cheap cheap cheap
Do not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
By now you probably wish the hell you never started this post . But , since you did ;
Just this last week my hand broke a milwauke 1/2 inch angle drill. Heavy duty. Seems he broke the chuck right off just changing the bit . [ he said ] I cant descibe what went through my whole body. Im not sure Brian would want me to. Only thing I know about it was that I saw it laying in the doorway of a bath room he was working on , and he is pretty big. I never said anything about it to him after he was forced to tell me as he was wiring the bath room . [He had to have another drill] That said ;
I never at any time had the thought to make him pay for it, not even if he had said he stepped on it with his 230 frame. My result would have been the same; I pay. Thats the reason I didnt say anything. I try to avoid arguement when the results wont change , and I was sure to pay for the drill. I wont share a profit on the next job , probably the next one either. But hey, that probably didnt cross your mind either . I can usually think of suttle ways to make my point other than insulting ones. My question to you is this ; What did you gain by bringing this up to him? I believe I can buy a whole package of assorted nossels for 10 bucks. So, Im placing the loss to the plaintive at 2 dollars , which you already lost in attitude multlple by the defendant , plus the loss of likeing his job any more that day . You probably lost 40 bucks after you mentioned it to him . [ just a figgure to hang out there to make my point ]
I have never heard of a case that an employee was financially responseble. But , I guess you were amazed at how this post turned out . So go figgure .
Tim Mooney
Tim,
A bit of irony...the chuck on my Milwaukee 1/2" drill snapped last week...as I was changing bits.
Stood there kind of dumbfounded for a while...did that just really happen? Did it unscrew? How the heck did it snap?
I suppose a few years of fatigue and there it went.
For the thread:
The boss pays for items he provides. If the help breaks them, the boss replaces them. If the help is too clumsy to work in construction, that help can't be on a construction site. Too dangerous. They may not hurt themselves, but they may hurt someone else.
MMM, well, ....I figgure at the most honest thing that happend is he stepped on it and then tried to chuck a bit . But , at any rate Im glad I didnt say anything , because what Iwas thinking wasnt pretty. I just wonder if yours was stepped on , since you have had yours for a while . I had only wired one house with this one and only used it for angles , so to me it was still new. Be interresting to know if they have had a recurrent problem. That is exactly what he said happened though. I did take the angle off of it and now have a straight drill, but the angle drills are so much more expensive, and that gives me four straight drills of heavy duty , and two makita lighter duty 1/2 inch drills. I already had too many , but I was on UBID and picked up two at a good deal. [that I didnt need ] lol! I guess I will try to get the angle replaced.
Tim Mooney
so anyway- you pay- unless that laborer is a subcontractor it is your baby.
everything all the folks posted previous is truth- they just need an editor...
hoo own thes borde kneads en adaptor?
LMBO!!!!!
nobody- yer all the best and get right to the point and never belabore things except for sometimes on days with vowels or mebee consonants in them- I only have so many brain cells left and if I read every word of say ten replies to any given question I will die cause the cells that were running the breathing part are off trying to absorb some answer somewhere and oh hell I feel faint...
Too funny, last year I snapped the shaft off my 1/2'' Millwalkee angle drill by tightening the chuck. "I am tough," I thought.
mmmm, this is getting very intrresting .What did you do? Maybe we should move this to tools.
Tim Mooney
It was an accident, and a $3.00 nozzle. Speak with him calmly. You might even be able to back peddle and tell him you had a bad day and is sorry. As for the nozzle, your paying. Unless the kid is beating it against the wall, or using it for a crack pipe, the tool money comes from you. Consequently, if he is doing the above, shoot him.
Can't I go 1 day without spilling my coffee?
You've already gotten hammered pretty hard here, but I wanted to add in one more thought.
If your employee had found a way to save you 10 bucks, would you have paid him the amount he saved you?
If not, then I can't imagine why you think he owes you for the nozzle.
Affluence trivializes, excessive affluence trivializes to the absurd. [Dren Geer]
Question……..Was this a first time occurrence or is this a regular event? Point being……All of us have accidents, but some of us are what the insurance companies refer to as "accident prone". This category would include folks who just don't think ahead in a manner that helps them avoid these "accidents". Usually this is because they don't have their minds fully on the task at hand and the potential various outcomes from the sequence of foreseeable possible events. Sometimes it's simply because they are reckless for any number of reasons including that they just don't care about the outcome of their actions or they are trying to proceed too hastily.
Time will tell whether or not the individual has or can then be "cured" of an accident-prone nature and whether or not they will turn out to be an asset or a liability.
If this is a first or second time occurrence, I wouldn't be too rough on the person as there's a learning curve involved in avoiding accidents. Remember your first days behind the wheel?
They may well feel bad about what happened and do what is necessary in the future to help avoid costly mistakes. But if it is or becomes an everyday occurrence, then you may decide that you simply can't afford their help.
On the other hand, I have to agree that the learning curve is usually substantially shortened if one's wallet is affected; that's what drove the point home to me in my youth and still does today. Nonetheless, all of us will still have accidents. I wouldn't be too hard on the guy for a shop-vac nozzle.
BH kind read my mind. You dont give the laborer a share of the profits do you? Do you give him a piece of any bonus you recieve for completeing the job ahead of schedule? What are the conditions of employment? Did you tell him he would be responsible for any tools he accidently broke? I think you would have a hard time hiring anyone with those type of conditions. If he continues to cost you more money then he makes you then you can fire him. But who knows what your going to hire in his place...I know you've been hammered pretty hard on this one. so Ill leave it at this Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
nobody has to pay.
take some duct tape and tape it together.
listening for the secret.......searching for the sound...
Who's gonna pay for the duct tape?<g>
Sorry, I gotta side with the pack too but... When I cause greif I try to make it as painless for my boss as possible, like if I have made a mistake that just shouldn't have happened I usually do what's necessary to remedy the situation and don't bill my hours.
A few weeks ago my company cell phone fell out of my pocket while I was driving with open doors (icecream style van) the phone smashed and I took it upon myself to buy a used replacement for $40.00 rather than lay it on my boss. Working this way gets me way further ahead with him then butting heads, it's a joke now rather than a sore spot and that money will come back to me in other ways 100 fold.
That may not always be the best way. For all you know, the boss might have bought insurance on the phones or have them covered under his AMEX and could have a new phone now instead of the used one.
Or if your boss is billing out your hours at cost plus and you deliver fewer billable hours to him, you have just cut his income.
Your heart is in the right place, but it might be wiser to go to him with an explanation, apology, and offer to remedy or accept his alternative solution. .
Excellence is its own reward!
You pay, he learns. Its why you get the big bucks and he starves trying to make a living. In the end he'll have his own business, you'll be retired and, well, guess who will be asking the same question then.
Do you still wear polyester suits? It would be difftern if he was throwing dirt clods and broke a window. In the line of duty you should pay.
Dear JMARCUS,
I am speaking from the perspective of a bottom-tier laborer, but you may find my opinions refreshing after all the other "nays" from my fellow forum readers. Recently, I borowed my boss's ext. ladder for personal use and it fell out of my truck on the way to work the next morning and was forever lost. Now that's not exactly on the job damage, but he still offered to write it off. I told him no, I'll replace it and so I bought a new one out of my own pocket since I felt responsible for the loss (and I was!).
Now there's another guy on our framing crew who is a real scatter-brain--shot me in the back of the shoulder with a nailer a few days ago (second time that's happened to me with him). He has damaged or broke every one of our Paslode guns and is constantly cutting through nails with new saw blades. Now I would fire him if I was the boss, b/c not only is he careless but also incredibly undependable. But since he is a long-time friend of the boss, he gets a slap on the wrist every time.
I suppose from the laborer's POV, the boss paying for helper-related damages or mistakes is a good way to show the boss has compassion and cares more about taking care of hs/her crew than about petty financial loss. But on the flipside, a consistently careless helper doesn't deserve the boss's respect b/c the helper isn't doing their part to accomplish the boss's goals on a given project.
I would think the boss should be concerned over the welfare of all his workers, yourself included. The long term friend of the boss is a definite catastrophe waiting to happen. Not once but twice? Glad it was your shoulder and not an eye.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations, the other half gets so complex I don't deal with it.
I never had a problem with character, people have been telling me I was one ever since I was a kid.
Rez,
Agreed.
In fact, this all about the boss being a stand up guy.
First, The boss pays for everything; mistakes, mismeasures, saw blades, razor knives, dust masks, gloves, goggles, ear protection, porta-potties, anything that makes people more productive. All these things mentioned are cheap! And a real stand up boss pays for lunch once a week. At least offers to pay for lunch.
Second, the boss never pays for bail, lunch, (the other four days!), expected hand tools, clothes, taxi rides, vet bills, flat tires, hangover treatments, in other words, the boss is not thy guardian.
Whenever I have silently reacted in the same way as our original poster, in hindsight, my reation was the result of fear. And that was because I was working broke. And that was because I wasn't charging enough. Cheap = cheap.
Also, the stand-up boss is a great observer of other humans. Never keeps a guy on because of blood or friendship. May sound cold, but as in the case of the Captain, a friend or relative that's kept on because of those facors rather than on merit is dangerous to the rest of the crew. And what does that say to the worth of the rest of the crew?
Also, klutz has no business on a job. A stand-up boss fires klutzs and tell them why they won't get a recommendation.
And why can't we collectivly price our work so we can pay the least skilled people a living wage?
Thanks Rez, Tim, and Mark. Yes, it is really hard working with the good ol' boy/total idiot that's the friend of my boss. I actually appreciate when he doesn't show up to work b/c that means I get to work with the other, very competent journeyman on our crew. I'm considering looking for a new crew b/c of this guy's carelessness. I have been shot in the leg once, shot in the back (as I mentioned before), almost knocked off a scaffold, not to mention being the one that has to help him fix his screw ups. Our crew had another helper who quit partly b/c this guy came to work for us and the old helper knew about this guy's carelessness. Did I mention every hand tool this guy has (and his tool belt) has come from other crew members? Did I also mention he has borrowed and broken three of my chalk lines in the past month, and never even offered to replace them? I'm sorry but I've priced a basic set of quality hand tools for framing, and it comes out to about 175 bucks. Spread that out over a few paychecks and it is silly to have to borrow tools every day. Maybe I'm just lucky to be 19 and have all the specialty tools I have (compressor, nailers, CMS, etc.), but even at age 15 when I did handyman work around the house I could afford top-of-the-line hand tools. BTW any framers in the Pascagoula, Ms. to Pensacola, Fla area need a hard-working helper?
"I do everything I'm good at, and I'm good at everything I do."
Cap'n
You've done a good job right here, of outlining a lot of the ways that having this guy around, is actualy costing the boss.
Why don't you just write it all down, and take it to the boss ?
All of it. The cost in carelessness. The cost in tools. The cost in production. The cost in other employees. The cost TO other employees. The overall cost to the boss.
Write it all down today. Think about it. Revise it tomorrow. Think about it. Revise it again the next day. Etc. Until you know that you have said it all in the best manner you can. Then take it to the boss next thursday. You'll probably stop revising my monday or tuesday. But hold it anyway, until next thursday or friday. You may surprise yourself with a last minute change. And it is better to be absolutely sure.
Besides, if he goes with his buddy, and gets rid of you... better at the end of the week, no ? LOL
.....
You never know, the boss could possibly be wishing for just such a list. He may want to have a real excuse to fire the guy, but hasn't been able to come up with the list himself. Or feels too guilty doing so. He may actualy be thankful.
Hey ! It could happen !
: )
Don't bogart the Ghost
Quittin' Time
Hi Strap,
While reading this, I sat here, thinking, "What a fine young buck this is, articulat, knowledgeable, wise enough to come to breaktime to learn..." I was actually amazed to learn how young you are.
If you were in my neck of the woods, we'd be talking about work. I'm sure you'll find something that you derserve. One word of caution tho', Find the next job before you quit this one - keep working and leaarning in the meantime - unless it gets too dangerous. This situation reminds me of the times that I've worked in outfits with a relative in the crew, not good!.
Excellence is its own reward!
Cap,
Are you sure you aren't working in N.E. Wisconsin? Sounds like the crew I used to work with. Mostly great guys , and one who the boss felt he had to adopt. Wouldn't have lasted a week if it were up to me. Part of the reason I left. Tired of fixing the problems. You sound like you're serious about a carreer as a carpenter. Find someone as serious about who works for them, for a boss. Got an opening here!! Probably a bit cold for a southerner though;) And the boss is a real piece of work, oh wait that's me! Good luck, and keep us informed of how your situation works out. We had a small discussion a while back, about culling the "dead wood", pertaining to workers. Most of us are probably too slow in doing this.
Brudoggie
Mark's comments are important enough to repeat them. These few short paragraphs says volumes :
"Â Rez,
Agreed.
In fact, this all about the boss being a stand up guy.
First, The boss pays for everything; mistakes, mismeasures, saw blades, razor knives, dust masks, gloves, goggles, ear protection, porta-potties, anything that makes people more productive. All these things mentioned are cheap! And a real stand up boss pays for lunch once a week. At least offers to pay for lunch.
Second, the boss never pays for bail, lunch, (the other four days!), expected hand tools, clothes, taxi rides, vet bills, flat tires, hangover treatments, in other words, the boss is not thy guardian.
Whenever I have silently reacted in the same way as our original poster, in hindsight, my reation was the result of fear. And that was because I was working broke. And that was because I wasn't charging enough. Cheap = cheap.
Also, the stand-up boss is a great observer of other humans. Never keeps a guy on because of blood or friendship. May sound cold, but as in the case of the Captain, a friend or relative that's kept on because of those facors rather than on merit is dangerous to the rest of the crew.  And what does that say to the worth of the rest of the crew?
Also, klutz has no business on a job. A stand-up boss fires klutzs and tell them why they won't get a recommendation.
And why can't we collectivly price our work so we can pay the least skilled people a living wage?"Â
In fact, for a job being done tomorrow by an employee, I just bought a package of razor knife blades, gloves, knee pads and two scrapers - all included in the job estimate. Line item: "Disposable misc. tools - $50."
Hey Cap, -You considered using this forums 'help wanted' listing? That's what it's there for. Chances are if they're reading here at this site they're probably better suited to further your education without putting a spike in your shoulder:)Half of good living is staying out of bad situations, the other half gets so complex I don't deal with it.
I never had a problem with character, people have been telling me I was one ever since I was a kid.
SONNY; Very good to see your comment, I been missing your insights into the business side of the world, I for one am glad to see you here.
CAPTAIN If even half of what you have said is true, you should already be employed elsewhere. Life can be way to short to have that much trouble at work, especially from just one other person. I'm with Pif, find the new job first, but I would be looking tomorrow, before the idiot causes lasting damage. Luka had a good idea with the list, but in my opinion that should have been several problems back. You are young, intelligent and willing to work, a rare combination that deserves better treatment. Somebody should help you out, and turn a profit doing it. Ask for help here and you will receive. Good Luck
Dan
PS I think that if it was me, I would tell the idiot if there is a third misfire, that yu are returning fire of like kind.
Yeah, something like, "Do that one more time and your ears are gonna be nailed to the header over there with your toes about three inches off the floor".
Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks again to everyone for the excellent advice, and I am definitely taking Piffin's advice after today--almost got into a physical confrontation (most certainly not a good way to resolve problems) with the guy b/c he was slacking so badly b/c of his "hangover" and just his general disregard of quality in favor of haste. Tomorrow is Sunday, which means the big classified ad section comes out in my local paper--I will definitely make some phone calls and visit some job sites this week. Although I do feel a strong sense of loyalty to my current boss (and he is an excellent framer and teacher), I still know that being around this kind of poor workmanship will eventually commit me to the same carelessness if I just simply go along with it, so to speak. Again, thanks, and I will let all of you know how my job-hunting goes.
Wait a dang minute. Your last post makes it sound like you're not the boss, just another craftsman on the job, and this guy was assigned to help you. What's the relationship?
ELCID,
You are correct in assuming I am not the boss, but rather a helper. The "relationship" I have with the guy-in-question (GIQ) is that he and I are always assigned to group tasks on my crew; i.e., felting the roof, hanging rafters, setting windows, etc. So I have to work in close relation (and sometimes in close quarters) with him and as the tote man for the crew, what he asks me to do or get for him affects how hard I have to work and/or how many trips I have to make around the house every day. Now I don't mind hard work at all, but unnecessary work and time wasted are counterproductive to my health, the job accomplishment, and my foreman's bank account.
Maybe I'm a little slow, but all along I've been agreeing with (most) everyone else about the boss absorbing the cost of a damaged tool. But if you and the GIQ were both craftsman on a crew and he broke one of your tools, then I don't agree that you should eat the repair/replacement cost. It's either him or the boss, and they can work it out.
T'was JMARCUS007 that started this thread.
He was the boss. The guy who stepped on the vac nozzle was his helper/laborer.
Cap'n Strap's situation was a side trip in this thread.
So, you were not incorrect or mistaken.
: )
Don't bogart the Ghost
Quittin' Time
"Once I thought I was wrong, but I wasn't." Is that how it goes Luka?
My apologizies to Capn Strap for misreading the messages.
ELCID, you were not totally incorrect in assuming that the guy-in-question broke my tools b/c I had stated earlier that I had loaned him three new chalklines in the past two months, all three of which were somehow broken and never replaced or paid for. I finally gave him a fourth to keep (a top-notch Fat Max at that!), which thankfully is still in service. BTW, the GIQ has also managed to damage or break all six of our Paslode F350's, including one that was just repaired the day before and which I had used successfully for half a day before he got ahold of it! He seems to have a knack for sitting them on top of our step ladders and then trying to move the ladder. (DUH!) I'm just glad he's never dropped my personal gun!
I've learned something from this thread,
I've got a couple of guys who stop by when they feel like it and give me a hand. By and large any broken tools I've replaced or repaired without comment including some very expensive ones. They either were not familar with them or I hadn't explained carefully enough to them how to use them.
I have gotten real direct about cords. Carefully showing them how to keep cords out of the way while they do a job and demonstrating the correct methods. I won't use a frayed cord that has been taped or a spliced cord for saftey reasons so I take real pains about cords.
I'll replace cords a couple of times without comment and then replace them a few times while I reinforce cord handling.
15 minutes after I handed a belt sander with a brand new cord to the guy who tore off the last cord he had the cord rapped so completely around the sander that replacement was the only solution. The bill was $21 ... I handed it to him and without comment he reached in his wallet and handed me the money. Since then only one cord has been cut and not by him.......
Maybe I shouldn't have handed him the bill?
There are other ways of finding work than in the classifieds. Many of us who hire think of them as the last thing we'd want to use to find help. So the very best employers might not use them in your area.
Suggest you contact the builders who are know for doiung good work. Or talk to other craftsmen to find out who is good to work for and let them know that if an openning comes up...
You might talk to the lumber and building supply folk. The ones in the back room who actually talk to the builders, not the lackies at the handyman/DIY counter out front. Let them know you might be interested in opportunities.
Variations of all this depoend on your local culture. You run the risk of your current employer learning that youy are looking and blowing a gasket. My sense is that if you are as well spoken and present yourself in person as well as here, you will find somebody calling you shortly once you start getting the word out.
The Saints of Breaktime are watching....
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
Thanks again for the head's up for this young carpenter! I have already been around town many times on days off, going to other framing sites to see what other crews do differently, how they work, how many guys there are on their crew, the quality of their work, etc. And there are several framing crews here in town, so I don't believe finding one to hire on with will be a big problem; rather, it will be finding one that more or less meets the quality of person and workmanship I'd like to see from fellow carpenters. Most crews here build tract houses, where speed and profit take precedence over quality. My boss (crew leader) also has a really good reputation among fellow framers, as well, and our crew's accomplishments are almost legendary with some other crews.
As far as I go, yeah I'm young and I've only been doing this for a job for about six months, so I'm not the smartest or fastest helper there is. However, I have all my own tools from tool belt to air tools, have my own reliable tansportation, and I'm very dependable. (Only missed one workday in six months, and that was partly job-related.) Not to mention I gave up a full scholarship to college b/c I loved building houses and working with wood so much.
Anyway, tomorrow is Monday so I am going to try and talk to my boss about the situation before I go and try to hire on with someone else--you know, exhaust all other options. I'll let y'all know how it goes.
Strap:
You've been shot three times....with gunails....by the same guy.....and pushed off a ladder....by the same guy....in six months!!???!!! Your boss is a nut, and it sounds like you're lucky to be alive. You've got to get this resolved or get out of there, before this guy gets you killed. Good luck.cabinetmaker/college instructor. Cape Breton, N.S
Now just how big a boy is he? Maybe he needs a 55 gallon barrel of whup #### on him . Is he gonna be there all day? Youve got a sitch-u-ation on your hands boy!
Quoted from "RD Mercer " LOL.
Tim Mooney
Tim- call milwalkee and they'll send you a replacement part for your drill at no cost.Half of good living is staying out of bad situations, the other half gets so complex I don't deal with it.
I never had a problem with character, people have been telling me I was one ever since I was a kid.
Why would they?
Tim Mooney
Well, I think it all comes down to they want your business and the way to get it over others is the repeat business, taking care of customers.
Case in point. My one year old Milwaukee sawzall suddenly cracks the collar that holds the blade. You know what kind of abuse a sawzall can go through. I call the toll free number to explain the situation and order whatever is needed. The guy asks for my mailing address. I give it and ask how much. No charge. Couple days and it's at my door. I wasn't looking for a freebie but I got to tell you I appreciate service like that.
End result: I still like Milwaukee tools and buy them. I think the bulk of better quality tools among the different manufacturers is so similar that personal preference as to how a tool feels and runs is about the only deciding factor in purchase coupled with what kind of service you get after the purchase.
Seeing the sudden acknowledgement from other owners of that drill having similar problems puts Milwaukee in a bad light and the cost of the replacement part to remedy the situation is a small price for them to pay to keep a positive image. Bet they'll take care of you quick if you contact them.
IMHO of course:0)Half of good living is staying out of bad situations, the other half gets so complex I don't deal with it.
I never had a problem with character, people have been telling me I was one ever since I was a kid.
He's shot you twice and yet he's still working... better yet still alive... WOW!
I guess that exactly the point. Accepting responsiblity. My experience has always been...um...on the lower end of the tier. I was also one that could be labled as being "accident prone". It's not that I was careless, it was just that I would be a bit too agressive and would take too many risks. The one incident comes to mind was when we were tearing a roof (including sheathing) off a house. I was attempting to carry 60lb chunks of roof while stepping on the bottom cord of the trusses. I was doing pretty good until my back foot slipped off sending it through the drywall ceiling. I fell backwards dropping the chunk of roofing which fell onto a sawzall box. The box was pretty well flattened. It was the lead carpenter's personal box (we owned our own tools with the company covering repairs and replacement) and I promtly offered to replace the box. Why? Because he didn't damage the box, why should he (or the company) have to cover something that I damaged? Ultimatly he decline my offer (which was suprising knowing how anal he was about his tools) and just beat it out with a hammer. As for the drywall ceiling, that was never brought up. I assume that it was just absorbed into the existing drywall work.
as a former laborer extraordinaire, if you charge me for a tool that got broke from an on-the-job accident (not me doing something like walking on a roof were told not to), i'm out there. At laborer wages I didn't need a s hitty/pissy boss-. you make the big bucks, you take the risks. (As a side thought, once we all figure out how to get past the Tounton censors, does it make sense to have all of this censored).
Liabilities are everyday and constant , good help is cheap and a major assett .
What state are you in? In most Western States (I'm in WA.) the employer is resposible for any and all breakage. You can fire a guy, but you can't charge him for losses except for theft, missing cash from a till (with special conditions), and purposeal destruction (you would want to fire them anyway).
Kay, it's all subjective, but here is a method I use regularily, keeps everyone happy, and keeps my foot from the vicinity of my mouth. On small mishaps, I use the 'eyebrow raise'.
They just broke something. They feel bad already. If you didn't see it, then they've come to you to report it (the sign of a good, trustworthy laborer). They know how you feel, cuz it is/was yours, and now it's broke. If you can keep your head, and just raise an eyebrow, while keeping your mouth shut (maybe just a sigh...), you might just be surprised. They will be grateful that you didn't go off, and sometimes, SOMETIMES, they will offer to pay for it before you comment. It's a hard one to practice, but it doesn't hurt to try this, and you haven't said or done anything that will affect their future work performance. Then go buy the new one, and whine to the store clerk. This makes you feel better, and they have to listen. And you have not stepped in anything.
"If left is wrong, then right is the only thing left, right?"