As a carpenter employed by a general contractor, I would like to know where to draw the line on which tools I supply and which ones the company should supply. In my case, I drfinitely expect the company to furnish air tools, jobsite tablesaw, sliding compound mitre saw when needed, and any specialty tools such as Hilti guns, rotary hammer drills, concrete saws etc. But when I am trimming a job, I use my own mitre saw, and don’t necessarily object to this, except when other guys on the job are also using it. If I was a subcontractor, of course I’d expect to supply the equipment needed to complete the job I was hired to do. But as an employee, what is considered a reasonable complement of tools to carry with me on the jobsite? I”d like to hear from contractors on how they deal with this issue.
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Replies
being a project manager ,if a carpenter shows up on the job with no tools ,then in my opinion he is a laborer. its the contrators resonsibility to supply blades and what not . its up to the carpenter to decide who uses his tools
being a project manager ,if a carpenter shows up on the job with no tools ,then in my opinion he is a laborer. its the contrators resonsibility to supply blades and what not . its up to the carpenter to decide who uses his tools
A carpenter is responsible for bringing his own hand tools. I never said it's OK to show up without any tools. Your company is responsible for blades.Thats a joke! So what happens with broken or stolen tools ? Too many headaches. When company tools break,they fix them.When the are stolen ,they have insurance to replace them.
I think I'll start my own company. I'll bring the office trailer and the carpenters can supply all the tools!
could'nt agree with you more.
who's the cantractor?
Any tools that are expected to be used by more than one person on the site should be provided by the gc.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Contractor provides all power tools - regardless of whether you work alone or with a crew. Power tools are everything that is driven by a motor - electric, gas - or compressed air. The contractor is also should provide any extension cords, bits, saw blades, scaffolds, floor protection materials ( drop cloths), ladders, tables, and saw horses.
Carpenter provides all hand tools - unless they are special or peculier to the job. By hand tools I am referring to screwdrivers, hammers. nail sets, caulk gun (both sizes), basic block planes, utility knives, hand saws (yes, that's plural), tool belt, tape measure, chisels (again, plural), squares, scribing tool, sanding block, pencils, etc.
We have a list of tools required of all employees and use it to enforce/ encourage job performance and responsibilites. This list is also used as one of the benchmarks for raises and promotions. Ya gotta have the parts before you can do/ be the part.
If the Boss requires that you have/ bring your own power tools he/ she a) cannot require that others use them, b) must reflect this in your pay, and c) must provide any and all tool matainence ie: blade sharpening, replacement of burned out motors if it happens on the job, and cord replacement
As an employee you should not need a truck to come to work - unless the Boss supplies the truck.
F.
I will provide all power tools, except the cordless ones.
but most carps prefer their own saws too. You get used to a certain balance and feel.
A guy who has all his own basic power tools in addition to the hand tools is going to gety paid more, and get that pay in the form of a "tool allowance" that is non-taxable for him.
I remember working a large (40-60 men) condo jopb where they had a tool trailer, tool nipper, and did not allow me to bring my own power tools on site. multiple reasons but one was that it made thigs easier at end of day. If anyone was seem carrying any power tool out, it was a theft, short and simple.
Excellence is its own reward!
but most carps prefer their own saws too. You get used to a certain balance and feel. Way back when I used to work for other GCs, I always felt comfortable suppling, 100' cord, saw, 4' level, framing square, nail apron,saftey glasses and my own drinking water. After I aquired more and more tools, I never hesitated to ask for more money, and most of the time, got more money. Jim J
How about a painter? My painter specializes in spray work, so he owns almost $15K work of Graco and DeVilbiss gear.
How many of the tools used by a painter do you think the GC should provide?
He paints for me evenings and weekends, and has a 40-hour day job as a painter for a development company here in the village. Seeking more money for his day job, he talked to one of the guys in town that does high end, really high end, rustic vacation homes and camps. $1MM to $4MM. This guy said he should bring and use all his spray gear.
The number one bossemployee problem is miscomunication .
Your answer may depend on what hes paying you now . One man might be getting 15 dollars while another that resembles him may be getting 20, but there is always good reason because its about money. But , the main thing for me is to have versatility. If I can call a mans cell phone and he can handle a job from his truck with out my hands on , hes certainly worth more for an example. The more dependent he is on me and my time the less hes worth to me.
Your question doesnt have a set answer unless its a union or commercial job where tools normally stay in a trailer or box with the work going on for a period of time in one place .
Tim Mooney
While most of the answers here are good and give a varied range on what is the norm, the only true answer would be that it is up to the boss what is required. If he wants you to show up with all the tools necessary to get the job done, and you choose to work for him then that is what is required. If he wants you to show up with a hammer and tape then that is what is required. You would be much better off asking the boss.
good answer
Thanks to everyone for the feedback! I am gratified to see that most opinion seems to support the idea of employees providing the minimal needed equipment to get the job done.
Don't get me wrong, I do not begrudge having to use my own tools to a certain point - as many contributors have remarked, it is often easier and more efficient to work with the tools you are accustomed to using. As one person pointed out, the best thing to do would be to talk with the boss and spell everything out in a clear company policy. Why does life just not often seem to work that way?!
Of course it isn't likely that very many bosses are going to insist that you NOT bring your own tools to work - if I use them, he will assume I'm willing to do it. And if I let other guys grab my stuff instead of getting their own out, I guess I am the sucker.
Time for a New Year's resolution - "From now on, I will insist on the company developing and maintaining a clear policy on tool usage - time to stop being a wimp!" Oh, and about that company truck.....
The company I work for does general contracting cabinet work building maint and just about anything else..they provide the larger tools..compressors..etc etc..I do use quite a few of My own tools tho..as well as My own vehicle..I like to have what I need and know its not broken or bent..for Me..to get the job done in a timely fashion and to do it with the quality I expect from Myself I will use My own tools..they are like family..you get used to how they "work"..possible small idiosyncracies etc.etc..the company provides bit sharpening and blade sharpening or new of each..the thing is with tools is ..well ..I guess I get that from being a mechanic for 15 years..the tools become an extension of who you are and what work you produce...you use them properly..maintain them care for them and respect them...just My 2 cents worth.
JC
most say they supply the big stuff ... but a real carp usually ends up bringing his own stuff....
when I worked as an employee ... I drove my van load of tools everyday ... and made it quite clear I was the only one to use my tools ....
but like someone else said ... my stuff was much easier to work with than the beat up company tools .... so I chose to use my own ... to make my own life easier.
Most other carps had a belt and hand tools .... plus a circular saw ... sawzaw ... and cordless drill and most also had a framing gun.
The leads had that ... plus their own compressors .. hoses ... trim guns .... chop saw... table saw ... that they'd set up and most all would use.
They company owned the brake ..... tile saw .... ladders/scoffolding/etc.
One word of caution .... I went back to "employee" status after I loaded the van fulla stuff while being self employeed ... it was nothing new to me to buy the tool needed to get the job done .....
I saw more than one good carp ... or lead ... that was so used to the company supplying all the tools ... that would absolutely refuse to spend one dime on a new tool .... because the company was supposed to supply everything.
I saw those same get screwed when fired/laid off or companies went outta business.
I'd say if you wanna go anywhere in this field .... buy the tools you need to succeed .... even if ya leave them at home ... nice and shiny in the box ... and use the same company crap as everyone else!
A guy with a van load of tools is always worth a few dollars more .....
and he's usually the guy sent off on his own ... even if the company is "crew oriented" ... to knock out the smaller remodels by himself.
and that guy can ask for even more money.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
I once worked for a a company where we framed spring -summer-fall and trimmed all winter. When I started there I had a saw,level, cord and my hand tools.
8 years later I had everything to run my own business and then some. It was always a matter of pride to own my own tools.
As time went on the boss owned fewer and fewer tools and two or three of us owned more and more. Pretty soon if it I took a day off, nothing got done because no one had any tools.
The last straw was when the son, who was a partner in the company, asked to borrow some of my tools to work on his own house. It was my wife who pointed out that I was using my own truck, tools and phone to run someone elses business.
To top it all off, the guy who wouldn't buy any tools had just bought a new Z-28 and a boat and paid cash. I'm not against a guy making a few bucks but it had gotten out of hand.
I would say buy what you feel you should have ( saw, sawz-all, drill, hand tools) and make him buy the rest. Even if you do buy other tools, don't let anyone badger you into using them on their job, UNLESS THEY PAY FOR IT.
In the end I was making $20.00 HR and it probably cost me $5 just to run my truck and keep up My tools.
I prefer working with my own tools and had no problem bringing them to jobsites as an employee, everyone who used them at a previous company was respectful and kept them clean and well maintained. My last job as an employee was what broke my will to ever do that again, it was like having tools on site meant supplying every non-skilled nitwit who worked there, practically every tool someone else used got returned caked in all manners of dirt, broken, or stolen. It infuriates me even typing this that these #### would treat someone's else possesions like that, suffice to say I'm now extremely stubborn about it and no one other than my employees is allowed anywhere near a tool I own. There is no situation where an employee is responsible for outfitting other employees with tools to use, I'm sick and tired of seeing managers/foremen go 'o you need a drill, just grab Mr. X's' than Mr. X comes back from lunch and finds whatever moron used his drill snapped all the bit and broke the trigger.
-Ray
You bring up a good point.
What is the cost for an employee to provide a truck and tools?
I have almost enough to start out on my own.
Boss started new policy effective 1-1-04:
He no longer is responsible for repairing tools owned by employees.
We get a montly tool/vehicle allowance (mine is 200$)
My Vehicle expenses more than cover this, so what do I use too repair my tools?
I am seriously thinking about leaving alot of my tools home now.
It may be a PITA, but so is losing money!Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
You seem like a good guy for your boss to have.
If I were you, I'd leave most of the high $ tools at home if he's now un-willing to repair them.
Why the policy change? People abusing it?
If other people are abusing the policy maybe you can work something out one on one, or get a bump in your tool/truck money.
My boss provides basically no tools, the shop has a few tools, not many his excuse is he has been wiped out twice or three times depending on how he tells the story so he ask's his employees to provide basically everything. Though lately he's been buying what we ask for.
In exchange he provides all wear items and repairs damaged tools or replaces if beyond repair and it wasn't a POS to begin with. Also has a "tool buying program" employees can buy tools and pay off weekly, never done it myself, but some of the guys like it.
hell my boss even offered to pay for the bent base on the skill 77 I ran over cause some no nuts put it behind my wheels when unloading.
If he expects you to provide your own tools then he needs to pay to repair them if they are damaged on the job. Personally, if I'm rolling out a ton of money worth of tools I need to be compensated one way or another.
Interesting points of view from all. My new year's resolution: I will no longer supply tools for other employees to use. I don't have a problem with my employer; on the contrary, they provide excellent power tools and other equipment like ladders, scaffold, trucks etc. My issue is with other guys who don't have the necessary hand tools: like 4th yr apprentice who still doesn't own 4ft level or chalk line. I don't expect that men new to the trade would have full set of chisels, hand saws, planes etc, but there are some basics that they really shouldn't expect to borrow. If I keep letting them use mine, I become part of the problem.
So thanks for the discussion. I told the guys today, as of Jan.1 my personal tools are exactly that - for personal use only.
Wally
Lignum est bonum.
Jeff,
Dude, you need to have a talk with my boss!
He loves it that I have a boatload of tools and a truck.
Till it comes time to pony up some $$.
Then everything else becomes more important.
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
actually ...
You should talk to your boss!
You're only worth what someone will give ya .....
so ask ... or demand more .... and if he don't bend .... break it and walk out the door.
Then .... you'll find out what your own tools are worth ....
might be more ... might be less.
On jobs I worked using my van load of tools .... I made it quite clear from the very begining that I felt that was worth more ... and wouldn't show up the first day unless they agreed .... then ... I made it quite clear ... that van load was mine .... not the companies .... and even my best-bud co-workers knew to ask first ... and they they'd usually get shot down ....
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Yeah I know.........
Economy around here sucks!
In the spring I am gonna start actively searching.
Went to the Union hall in October and they didn't even take my name!!!
I'm gonna update my resume' and get a portfolio together.
And give everyone I talk to my bosses Phone #.
Maybe if he starts getting calls he will realize he needs to give me more than lip service.
You guys are probably sick of listening to me bitch any hoo!
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
In Germany: Hammer and work clothes - everything that´s in your nail pouch at the end of the day is yours. Matt Employers make money off you - If you have own tools and transportation, it has to reflect in the pay (increased). Its a free world - and all depends on who is in the better position in the market of labour...
I've been gone for a while, but lurking very occasionally, and I'll sound in on this one with a couple of points.
Its human nature that people value tools differently when they are theirs. This is a good reason that employees should provide their own tools. It is also much safer when a well cared for tool is being used for the work. It is much more efficient to perform a job well when the well cared for tool is properly calibrated and adjusted. Which is easier to accomplish when one person is ultimately responsible for the tool's care and security. Ultimately their is a lower cost to the business owner when all of these criteria are met.
Does this mean that the employee should "buy" his own tools? The employees pay should be such that he can afford to and that some of his pay is earmarked or the purchase of at least some tools. But if I as an employer offer you an hourly rate and expect to you to buy some tools with it, you have a potential for conflict.
Here's what I do.
I offer a competitive hourly rate for you labor. If you come willing to use your tools thats factored into it. On top of your wage, among other perks, I offer a tool allowance. Currently $.75/ hour or approximately $1500 per year.
I based that on buying good quality tools that I expect to be carried to a given job. If you have them when you start it will cover replacement under normal wear and tear. If you come with nothing it will reflect in the hourly rate you get, because basically you will be a laborer.
Three years of 1500 bucks will buy alot of tools. I did the math.
A well cared for chop saw, for example is good for 5-10 years the way we use them. If I were to provide it, it might last a year. Or a day.
Battery tools are expensive. They probably aren't cost effective in the long run. A $300 dollar drill and batteries might last a year under our use.
I prefer to let my employees use what they like, because tools are a highly personal choice.
Bottom line is this should be negotiated at the outset.
Tom
I'm here to help the humans.
Here's what I do.
I offer a competitive hourly rate for you labor. If you come willing to use your tools thats factored into it. On top of your wage, among other perks, I offer a tool allowance. Currently $.75/ hour or approximately $1500 per year.
I based that on buying good quality tools that I expect to be carried to a given job. If you have them when you start it will cover replacement under normal wear and tear. If you come with nothing it will reflect in the hourly rate you get, because basically you will be a laborer.
Three years of 1500 bucks will buy alot of tools. I did the math
Tommy B.
At $1500 per employee per year. Why not invest that money back into your company to purchase tools? Three years of $1500 per employee would buy your company plenty of tools and equipment. Tools and equipment are considered consumable and can be written off as a expense every year.
For everybody that posted here and said they supply a vanful of tools for the job. Stop investing your tools into the company,while your boss sees the profits. He owns a construction company.He should be the one investing capital into the company,not the employees.
H*LL if your supplying the truck and the tools you might as well get some insurance and become a SUB,then you can see the profits.
For everybody that posted here and said they supply a vanful of tools for the job. Stop investing your tools into the company,while your boss sees the profits. He owns a construction company.He should be the one investing capital into the company,not the employees.
You missed the point .... my point at least.
Don't invest in the company ... invest in yourself.
Better tooled guy should get better money ... plus ... the better tooled guys are generally the better carpenters.
A guy with a van load can always walk out on Fri and find work by Mon afternoon.
And he's much better off if he decides he don't like working under a "boss" anymore.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
All three paragraphs you wrote are erroneous and contradict themselves.
See profits as a sub? I subbed for many years and still do. I occasionally find contractors who allow me to make around 15% after wages to apply towards profit and overhead, which isn't enough.
I did 90k last year with one contractor that builds 300 units a year. He just found someone cheaper. Same thing will happen to the new guy in a year or two, when he finds out he isn't making money.
There is no shortage of guys who are willing to work at 1.5 times their wage as an employee, who think they are making profits.
Tom
I'm here to help the humans.
All three paragraphs you wrote are erroneous and contradict themselves
I don't think so! Maybe you should reread.
Let me simplify this just a little bit more. Instead of paying a $1500 per man per year tool allowance and other perks as you claimed in you other post. I suggested that money to be used by you to purchase company tools. As years go by tool costs lesson as compared to the first few years of start up. Tool breakage and usage can be written off as business expenses by you. Your employee cannot do this. If company tools are stolen the company should be insured so they are covered. If the employees tools are swiped he's SOL.
See profits as a sub? I subbed for many years and still do. I occasionally find contractors who allow me to make around 15% after wages to apply towards profit and overhead, which isn't enough
Here in Western PA subs make a good profit. If your good and can keep a timeline you can do quite well as a mater of fact. I'm sorry to here that your not making enough. But your are giving generous tool allowances and other perks.Maybe your in the wrong business or don't know enough about it! I have one question. How much overhead can you have besides insurance ? You just explained your employees supply tools because of your tool allowance you give them. Something doesn't sound right.
Don't worry about what I "claim", or what I make.
I'm not interested in arguing my resume with you either.
I happen to have practiced as an accountant so I have a little background in business.
I am also fairly certain that your idea of doing well as a sub is being in the lowest tax bracket.
Practice your reading comprehension skills and you might learn something from this site.
Maybe you can define overhead for me and show me how you arrive at your hourly rate. But again, I'm pretty certain that you take what they tell you they'll pay, then at the end of the week you divide it by the hours you worked to arrive at your hourly rate.
Have a great day. You've earned it.
Oh, and keep a dictionary by the 'puter to help you with your cipherin'.Tom
I'm here to help the humans.
Having trouble accepting a little constructive critism is how I see it. Nobody asked what you make or claim. You told us you weren't making "nearly enough" and nobody said a word about your resume.
Hey John,
He made the statement of what I claim, implying that I am a liar.
Then he went on to suggest that I don't make enough. Which I never stated.
Then he questioned my business acumen. And he's wrong on his logic. Hence the reference to my resume.
The internet is full of weenies.
I am fortunate to make more than enough. But that has nothing to do with business. It has to do with living within my means, which I do.
I read a very good article many years ago about an woodworker who made all his art from scrap. At that time he had stores in some very high end malls.
His point was that he valued a piece on based on its own merits. Not what it cost him in materials and time.
Example:
Addition in high end neighbor hood where houses sell for say 200/s.f. That is what the job is worth. Maybe more. Comparable quality of course. Is that my price? Maybe.
Do I know what my costs and overhead are? Yes. More importantly, I know how I value my time.
I sounded in here because someone else was looking for constructive criticism.
So I'll leave now and leave you guys to your own wits.
Bye.
Tom
I'm here to help the humans.
John,
I don't think TommyB was out of line responding the way he did. Jpawlikowsky make some strong statements and Tommy responded in kind.
Jon Blakemore
Edited 1/1/2004 3:05:52 PM ET by Jon Blakemore
Tommyb called jpawlikowsky's comments erroneous and contradicting which is totally untrue. Do you agree?
Tommyb posted he rarely gets 15% and that's not nearly enough. Right there he told everybody here. Nobody asked him what his profits are. Then he's going to be offended when jpawlikowsky posts that tommyb is not making nearly enough in a rebuttal argument. When you post that kind of information you better be prepared to take some criticism
Tommyb cited that jpawlikowsky statement that subs make profits is untrue. Subs will do fairly well if their business is sound. I'm not talking about a rusted pickup and a magnetic sign. Come on.
As for the questions about jpawlikowskys profits you'll have to post them to him.
Happy Safe New Year
John,
"Tommyb called jpawlikowsky's comments erroneous and contradicting which is totally untrue. Do you agree?"
Yes, I do agree. Tommy was sharing his opinion that an employee will take better care of items that the employee has personal interest in. A good way to achieve this is to give him the extra money and let him buy the tools of his choice. I would be inclined to agree with Tommy on this one. I am very protective of my own tools. I researched the buying decision, paid for them, and maintain them. If you are working alongside me and you do something with my tools that I don't like, I will tell you. If I am working with a fellow employee, I will not be as assertive, as it is now the bosses responsibility to ensure that his employees are taking care of the tools. This is not to say that I would ignore the laborer who is about to cut a 2x4 laying flat on the garage slab with a 7-1/4" saw, blade at full depth, but I will not be as excited if he sets it down in a mud puddle.
Moving on to the business side of things. Tommy was expressing that there are too many workers that think they can sub for wage + 15%. This is not a profitable venture. They are losing their pants, but think they are doing well. This in turn makes it very difficult for a legitimate sub to work for most GC's. Why would they pay Tommy $65/hr. when Joe carpenter will work for $34.50/hr? I don't believe that Tommy was whining about not being able to effectively sub, I think he was just passing his experience along.
Finally, I do agree with you that subs will do well if their business is sound. This includes finding the right niche and charging what you need to survive. But, once again I agree with Tommy. It seems that jpawlikowsky is taking comfort in a false economy. This is only our opinion, but I would like to see proof to the contrary.
I will repost my question to jpawlikowsky.
You too have a safe new year.
Jon Blakemore
for what it's worth ...
you're arguing with someone that's made a total of 4 posts ....
John probably is jpaw ....
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Jpawlikowsky,
"How much overhead can you have besides insurance?"
I think if you're asking this question, it would behove you to spend some time searching the archives of the business section. There are many costs other than insurance that a real business incurs. If someone is not charging at least 2x wage, than they are either selling themselves very short, or are not prepared to meet the costs and risk of a legitimate business.
"Here in Western PA subs make a good profit."
I have a question for you. Do you know how much profit you are really making?
Jon Blakemore
Yes I do.But at the end of the week I take what they want to give me, then I divide that by the number of hours worked and I get my hourly rate which puts me in the lowest tax bracket. I learned that from tommyb.
Having worked for myself and as a union carpenter, I can say that I really have a low opinion of those gc's or carpentery subs that try to get you to use more than your hand tools. By union rules, you are not supposed to use your tools--and most large gc's around here (chicago) don't want your tools on site for insurance reasons. But there are always the lowlifes that try to get you to use up your tools instead of theirs--always a good sign that working for such a company will be bad news. I wouldn't dream of bringing my tools to a large site--and no union contractor pays more for someone who uses their own tools--they grudgingly pay scale and that's it. If you can get your boss to pay you a fair amount--and $1500/year wouldn't cut it--and you don't mind subjecting your tools to the abuse and peril of a job site, go for it. I'll save my tools for side jobs and down time.
side jobs?
I thought that went against union reg's?
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Shhh---don't tell anyone!! My main point is that unless you are hired as a sub, the gc/carpentery contractor should supply all but your handtools. If your boss kindly lets you use your tools at your expense, and you insist on doing it, then go for it. Obviously any carpenter would probably rather use his own tools, those that he is used to, but I think we give enough already to those who employ use without giving them "free" use of our tools.
I have a pt helper ...
that's probably gonna become ft this year ....
he doesn't have nearly enough tools for my liking ......
and since I plan on sending him out on his own on smaller jobs from time to time ....
we both agree he's gotta tool up.
one idea we're kicking around .....
a "bonus" program ... or "big job" program ....
basic idea .... I buy him a tool he'd not afford on his own ....
my reasoning .... he uses it to make us both money .... more productive ....
the basic idea ..... I decide what tool he needs ... or better put ... the job in question decides .... I get his input ... but he's not as tool junkie as I am ... so I'd make the final decision .... and I buy it.
But it's his tool to keep.
He's only got a belt and the basic hand tools ...
so basics like a decent chop saw if we have a big trim job .....
sooner or later a decent portable table saw to replace the circular saw and guide ....
I'd guess most of it'll be good quality ... name brand ... used or reconditioned ...
compressors .. hoses ... old guns ... I don't see why I can have him loaded by years end .... not a van load ... but a truck full.
The deal ... he starts using his stuff instead of mine!
I hate to share.
Like I told him .... in the near future ... I'm planning on setting him up to leave and be my competition!
On a big crew ... at a big company ... I'd say no way to using my stuff ...
but on a smaller remodeling scale ... most guys are crazy to not tool up.
no telling what the future holds ... better be ready.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
I totally agree---I probably have at least $30,000 tied up in tools--whenever things are slow with the union, I'll do smaller stuff for myself. I'm not saying a carpenter shouldn't have tools---probably can't have enough--just that unless his boss is reimbursing him fairly, all you are doing is padding the guy's bottom line. I love to use my own tools--they're almost always better than what's on the site, but as I said it's technically against union rules to use any of your own power tools and also a lot of gc's won't let you use your own stuff for insurance reasons. If everyone had a boss like you, we would all be "tooled up".
I would sincerely like to congratulate both Jeff and Tommy B.
It would seem that BOTH are putting some effort into developing high quality professional tradesmen. Professional tradesmen own and use their own tools----and are paid accordingly.
without exception--- in my limited experience as a business owner and employer----workers who own and take a bit of pride in their tools make more and have much brighter futures than those who show up with a rusty hammer and a broken tape.
and from an employers perspective----an employee who is adamant that he is only gonna bring the minimum tools and grumbles about padding the company line------he is a minimal employee with minimal responsibilities and pay potential.
and---for those of you driving around with a van full of $30,000 worth of tools and feel you aren't being paid adequately-----it's time to start your own business.
BTW---employees are supposed to pad the company line----why do you think you were hired in the first place? To make the owner money! He is not running a charity.
Once again---congrats to Jeff and Tommy B.
employees are supposed to pad the company line----why do you think you were hired in the first place? To make the owner money! He is not running a charity
He is not running a charity But niether am I.
To many Bosses out there who Want teamwork and commitment and Quaity and efficiency, But don't want to Pay for it.
Sure I got problems with my boss and I should find a new job or go out on my own and see what it is like.......
But that isn't the answer for every one.
I make my boss GOOD money and he appreciates it but he isn't giving enough back because he doesn't have to.
I hate the prevailing "I'm the boss" attitude in this business, like they are the only ones that deserve the $$$$$
I gotta feed my son , later
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
Stephen,
Out of curiousity, how much would you pay an employee extra if he came into some amount of money and decided that he would "tool up".
Scenario:
Joe roofer drives a Ford Escort, owns a tool pouch (empty except for tape, hammer, chalk line, utility knife, and a pencil that he "borrowed" from your pouch a while ago). Contrary to his lack of tools, he is a good employee, shows up early, willing to work late to get the important job done, has picked up alot in the 2 years since he started with you as a grunt.
Now he inherits $15k. He then buys a F250 with ladder racks. He gets a wheelbarrow compressor, hoses, and one gun. A few ladders to get where he needs, a skilsaw, sawzall, cordless drill, etc. He may not have everything that you have accumulated, but enough that you could send him off to patch a damaged roof after a storm, or you could leave him at noon to finish up the small roof that you are redoing.
Now, if he does this on his own then comes to you and asks for a pay increase that is commensurate, what will it be worth to you?
Jon Blakemore
He just went from 10$ an hour to 15+ and a lot more freedom and bonuses upon completing profitable jobs.
I am now also looking out for more small jobs to send him on to make me more money.
ANDYSZ2
I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Edited 1/3/2004 10:56:18 AM ET by ANDYSZ2
While you might reward your employees fairly--I don't think the majority of owner's and bosses do so. It's human nature to take advantage of a situation and if it makes sense from a profit standpoint--any owner will let his employees use their tools intead of his. If a carpenter thinks that $15/hr is a fair wage and pays him to replace his tools, then he should make the best of the situation. If the boss gives him more responsibility, etc and bonuses---I'd like to know what percentage of companies pay bonuses consistently---it's a great idea, but I don't think enough do it.
Andy,
If that is the case, I think your employees would be sufficiently motivated to do what I explained. I figure that he would bring home an extra $7000/yr., which would probably translate to an extra $1500-$2500 in take home pay (after his increased expenses).
I must say that I agree with Brian that most employers tend to undervalue the cost of tools and truck. I once worked for a guy who said that he would give me an extra $25/week (non-taxable) to bring my truck and all tools to the job. I declined as I would easily spend that much more money in gas just driving the truck.
Jon Blakemore
Just checked in on this thread and I have to say once again, I am impressed with all the brain power here on breaktime. All the brains that agree with me that is:-)
Jon, Stephen, Jeff, I know all of you guys are dealing with the same struggles that I am dealing with and learning as you go.
I could care less what jpauwluskzi or whoever thinks, I was just trying to offer some friendly advice.
Jeff, I'd strongly urge you to consider a system like I use instead of just handing over tools. I spell the system out very clearly in my employee manual, but it goes something like this.
The employee accrues (currently) tool allowance at the rate of $.75 per regular hour worked. After they build up a bit of a balance they can purchase an approved tool which they either buy on company credit or with their own funds. Depending on the case, the amount is deducted from their accrual and credited back on their next check, or just deducted from the accrual. My payroll co. handles the numbers. I keep the receipt, but it is always available for returns or warranty.
I approve the tools because they must be tools that I feel will benefit the company on a day to day basis. Usually, the guys look at their checks when they get them and will tell me what they are thinking about, and I give them a nudge one way or the other.
Bottom line is my guys love it, and they earn it. And they are not afraid to bring tools to work because they are paid for it. And they don't use mine that much, but they are always available if they need them. I'd hate to think that I am that small of a person to worry about whose tools they are.
I don't look at it as my employees work for me, I work for them. Everything that we make in terms of money, equity, and goodwill is ours to share or to increase our assets. That's one of the hardest parts of being in business is figuring out the percentages.
To Brian, I'm not a big union guy, in theory maybe, but your attitude about side work if your union prohibits it, pretty much destroys your credibility.
Tom
I'm here to help the humans.
Ok, from now on I'll just sponge off the government rather than do some honest work. Sorry, but if I'm laid off or things are slow, I'd rather do the sidework than collect unemployment. Not sure what the process is like where you live, but it isn't exactly the most uplifting thing---rather depressing. If that destroys my credibility, so be it---there's not much difference to me doing sidework and a non-union guy working his 40 and then doing sidework for himself. And I haven't seen a union guy say anything yet, because like everyone else, all of them are trying to make a few extra bucks too. Moreover, the whole point of the post is that if guys use their own tools rather than the company's, then they should be paid accordingly---not some pittance. This is not, repeat not a union-nonunion issue---it's called working for a living.
Brian,
I'll spell out the difference for you. You agreed to not take side work, any carpenter outside the union may or may not have.
So all the other union guys feel the same way? Then I question their credibility too.
You know, I've lost some guys to the union over the years, and I've know quite a few others who've went union. And the story's always the same. I think most if not all make less than the non union guys, they just work less. And they think they make more because the hourly rate is higher. Your bosses and companies are making way more off your labor than any non union companies, that's a fact. So who's the bad guy?
You brought the union element into this thread by comparing what union policy regarding tools is to non union. Two different animals altogether.
I don't have a written policy about sidework with my guys, but I do expect them to be fresh for my jobs. If they are not, then its time for them to go out on their own. But if I told them it was a condition of employment that they not do side jobs (whether its enforceable or not) and they agreed to it, then I would expect them to stick to their word.
That makes your word not good in my opinion. Sponging off the government doesn't have anything to do with it.
No hard feelings, but I don't respect your point of view. If you can't make it on unemployment, quit and get a new job that you can make it on, or don't agree to such things. I wouldn't take unemployment, not that I ever could, I'd find a new job.
To each his own.Tom
I'm here to help the humans.
You seem to have a bit moire of an honest attitude than the last union guy I tried to hire, more or less.
He was on a layoff period and his skill level was low - for the kind of work I did. He came to me looking for work.
I offered him a fair wage for what he could do.
He turned the work down saying that he could make half that by staying home. He said he could do it if it was cash under the table, which I don't do. That would make me an accomplis in cheating the govt and all the hard working people who pay taxes out of their money.
I have an uncle who is a big union guy. He seems to think like this guy too. Is this cheatumup anythingIcanget culture common in the unions? My impression is that it is, tho my union contact has been almost nill for the past fifteen years.
Excellence is its own reward!
Jon----I think that is an excellent question------but lets back up a bit first.
1)what is straight laborer worth to me---no tools,no experience, mostly just tears off shingles,carries material up the ladder,helps load and unload the truck etc? $10/hour.
2)what is a "roofer" with the basic hand tools you described worth to me? $12-$14/hour. he will likely be extremely un-dependable and show up only 3 or 4 days a week---but be reasonably productive when he IS there. won't have car or drivers license.
3)another guy with the same tools,but with a license,car, pretty dependable work ethic------shows up every day( or at least calls to let you know he is "sick" ), stays late if needed, doesn't need to be babysat around customers( polite,clean, not intrusive) is worth at least $16-17/hour---although they generally prefer to be paid by the day( $130)
4)now that same guy who gets his act together and is gonna "tool up" as you say would be worth at least $200 a day----but would be worth more AND would be earning more because I would happily be referring side jobs to him pretty steadily. he is gonna go into business for himself---he knows it and I know it----so i might as well encourage him and help him along if I can
what is my best bargain as an employer? well in the roofing business it is guy #1 and guy #3. guy#2 is where most of my employee headaches come from.
guys equiped like #4 are rare---and when I get 'em they have usually screwed up somewhere---jail,divorce,booze---whatever---and they are sliding back to #3 or #2 status.( after owning their own "business")
what I really try is to take guy #1 and turn him into guy #3 as quick as possible. I tell 'em pretty early on that there is little future in this trade as an employee and encourage them to plan on their own business some day------If they are thinking like a business owner then the job site stays neater,the material is wasted less, MY tools are damaged less etc.
I will say it again---in my trade there is no future as an employee---so I make that clear---move up or get out ( I will help 'em to either)---it is largely a pass through trade-----look at all the guys on this forum that "used to" do some roofing.
If you have any other question I would be happy to try to answer them also.
good Luck All,Stephen
Sorry, one more post. Would you all agree that it is the boss/gc who is making the overhead/profit on any given job??? Unless you have an arrangement where you are happy with your hourly pay and then get some compensation for bringing your tools, your truck, etc, you should consider this:
1.) What is the extra cost of driving your fully loaded truck to work every day??
2.) What is the cost of the insurance to cover that truckload of tools from theft,etc.??
3.) What is the replacement cost/repair cost for the year so that your tools are in the same condition at the end of the year as the beginning??
4.) What is your liability situation should someone be injured by your tools???
I'm sure the list goes on--these are some of the costs that a jobs overhead is supposed to cover--who gets it, you or the boss??
If you make the max for your area, and then have actually figured your yearly costs for using your tools, and your happy about it--great. If you run your own business, that's when you supply your tools---work for someone else, they should supply them or at least pay for them.
sorry to be in this so late.
"Would you all agree that it is the boss/gc who is making the overhead/profit on any given job???"
No
overhead is a cost
Profit is money taken for a job proportional to the risk taken and investment made.
There is a great difference between the two and you use the terms interchangeably.
But in spite of your premise being inaccurate, you overall points are right. The carpenter who brings tools on the job needs to make a proportionate profit based on that investment..
Excellence is its own reward!
Hey Pif:
Sorry for the misuse of the terms--what I guess I was trying to say was that the gc/boss should have the tool cost, etc figured into the overhead cost he is charging for the given job (or the % he uses to figure it). I didn't mean to infer that the boss/gc makes money on the overhead--sorry about the phrasing. I have worked most of my life as a non-union guy doing remodeling--got into the union late in the game, so I have seen both sides of the coin. Believe me when I say there are plenty of union carpenters who work their #### off because the estimating was off, etc. I have been doing mainly trim, and being the last guy in a unit/house, you are expected to make up for everyone in front of you. So if the framer's were over (assuming it was your company doing the framing) budget, that cuts into the time the trimmers have---it can really suck trying to do your best work when it was supposed to be done yesterday. Actually, it can be very counterproductive, and since I worked for myself for a long time, it is very conflicting as to where the priority goes--time or quality. I know I like to go for quality, but when the foreman wants you 45 all the corners and caulk, you don't have the time to do it right.
Piff I agree with most of what you say and with some of what brian is saying.
I believe that it is good for a carp to want to have his own set of tools.
BUT He needs to be compensated for it AND that does not mean the boss can stop buying tools!
I get 200$ a month for tool & truck expenses.
This started 5 years ago in lieu of yearly raises.
Bossman supplies Tablesaw miter saw compressor nailers ladders scaffolding etc.
All small power tools are mine with exception of the belt sander.
For abut two years now I have been on his case to get a new SCMS
The 2 milw. we have are not true any more.
He keeps making excuses and asying things like "it is 90%operator 10% saw" (????)
But he is buying a NEW dump truck for close to 30K and wants to expand the Office/shop because he can't concentrate when the office manager is there working.
You think there would be 600$ in there some where for a new saw!
When he built his log cabin he bought a 16" circular saw that sits in the shop collecting dust.
Am I venting again!!!???Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
Go ahead and vent. I've read enough about your boss to know you are right... It's all about return on investment for contractors or employees..
Excellence is its own reward!
Funny,
I was looking at a job today, and union pipefitter was there. He was laid off and working for cash. Does it all the time he says, even when he is working.
I have never know a union guy who didn't moonlite for cash now that I think about it. Then he's going on about making 70 or 80k last year working 9 months. Gets laid off every year.
Went on to tell me that the reason they are better paid is they are more skilled. Don't know about pipefitters but screwing steel studs together doesn't even make you a carpenter in my book.
I try like hell to not stereotype, but when you hear the same story over and over, it gets hard.
We have a big factory in town with lots of union workers, so I know the attitudes. Never seen a one insist on union labor on their own house. They can't afford it.
Don't get me wrong, I think union guys deserve what they get paid, I just think it should be all union or no union. Level the playing field.
Flame away matey's!Tom
I'm here to help the humans.
You're probably right.
I'm less interested in the details than I am in the human nature side of this thing. Greed, selfishness, or whatever seems to hang on a top peg at union hall. Kind of a "I got screwed once so I'm gonna screw the system eery chance I get" thing.
What mental convolutioins a person must half to go through to rationalize behaving that way!.
Excellence is its own reward!
I agree Piff,
Do what you love and the money will follow. That's what my Dad told me.
I guess the reciprical of that is "follow the money and do without love".
Unions, government, they cater to "victims". Which I ain't.Tom
I'm here to help the humans.
Wow! Stay away from the Forum for a few days, and there are lots of postings to catch up on reading! I am amazed and delighted with all the responses to my original query - now I feel that I'm on pretty solid ground for negotiating with the boss next time over wages, etc.
As for the whole union issue, don't know if I dare touch that, but here goes anyway. I've never worked as a union carpenter, so can't compare fairly. But it does seem to me that some union people have the kind of attitude described by many of the guys who posted here - ie "I'm not doing any more than the minimum, and I better be getting time and a half for every extra minute". I don't mean to tar everyone with the same brush, as doubtless many union workers are just as dedicated as we non-union types. I just worry about our society sometimes when too many people live their lives with a "what's in it for me?" outlook. Not that I am naive enough to believe that most employers are totally benevolent, either! Without unions, we'd all be working for slave wages, and not daring to stand up for our rights. I've heard too many complaints that "you can't find good help anymore". Well, duh! Good help expects good treatment and good wages- and if they aren't forthcoming, good help can always find another job.
What especially bugs me about unions is the way they fanatically seem to defend all their members regardless of competence, attitude or whatever. Even when acts of vandalism are committed during strikes, often the union seems to demand any charges be dropped as part of the settlement. Yes, union solidarity makes sense, but there is a limit, or to me at least there should be. There are too many stories of people coasting towards retirement and a great pension, with the employer unable to get rid of them in spite of incompetence, poor attitude, or unreliability.
Well, I've probably made enough enemies out there by now! Thanks again to all who responded to the question of who supplies the tools.
oops, I spoke too soon. I see you think it is OK to use your own tools after all..
Excellence is its own reward!
"I'll save my tools for side jobs and down time."
SCAB!
Wassa matta?
The Union rules only count when they suit YOU?
Taking work away from your under-represented brethren!
But then wadda U care about us schmucks who have to work for a living?
I wish I could go around pointing at the Union hand-book every time the boss got cheap and greedy!
I'm so tired of double standards in this profession!!Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
I'm sorry you feel that way about union carpenters--I certainly am not saying we are harder working, better paid, etc---because we all know that doesn't apply to every union carpenter or non-union. I guess that when things are slow, I should sit at home and not make any money--tell that to my creditors. I have worked most of my career for my own company--so please don't preach about hard work. If you read my posts, I am all for a guy doing what he has to do and if that is using his own tools to the bosses benefit, OK. I just don't think you should use your hard-earned tools without being fairly compensated. This is not a union--non-union issue--it's about being compensated for using your own tools. By the way, how many union guys do you know that don't do sidework----I thought so.
I'm not picking on you personally, just the way things are.
When you do a side job yoou take work away from somebody.
You can goe collect Unenjoyment at the max rate for a few months and still make more than a non union guy.
If walked on to one of your jobs and offered to work for the GC for less than you get and he let you go How would you feel?
In know the rules don't allow such things, But I'm not gonna be standing at you side job with a picket sign either.
I'm just Venting here Sorry you had to take the steam!
Have a cold one on me!
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
Just so we all know, last time I collected unemployment, it came to about $650/every 2 weeks before taxes, so we aren't talking a lot of dough. Now if it was workman's comp, I believe that would be closer to $800/week---but you have to be injured on the job.
" Now if it was workman's comp, I believe that would be closer to $800/week---but you have to be injured on the job."
And your point about Workman's comp is ?On a hill by the harbour
There is no point--I just thought there might have been a little confusion--like that unemployment is anywhere close to normal wages, as opposed to workman's comp which is closer to 2/3's. Everyone needs to chill out a little---no hidden messages here. I have no problem with anyone who is injured on the job collecting workman's comp---I personally don't like collecting unemployment for a lot of reasons.
HI I am also a union carpenter up here in Canada and in the market that I live, the Union rate is lower. Sad thing when you have a city getting ready for the Olympics. And we have a huge shortage of form carpenters. So the nonunion contractors pay the going rate while the union contracts are paying our contract rate. So half of our members have left or are working nonunion
By golly, this sure turned into a hot little old thread while I was missing it and letting it slide by.
May I read your context wrong, but I think you are dead wrong to take a contractor who gives employees a chance to get ahead in the world by helping them own tools and paying them more and calling him a lowlife.
But Like I said, maybe that union environment has your view of the working world warped. In the real world, income is related to what a man invests in himself and in productive tooling..
Excellence is its own reward!
You are right to say that something doesn't sound right.
It is the way you fail to factor in human nature, taxes, and maybe tool transport that sounds wrong to me.
A tool allowance is a common widely used management and motivational tool. Tax codes encourage or at least make it possible.
When guys are using my tools they break and disappeear at twice the rate as when these same tools are owned by the employee. If I give a dollar an hour in a cafeteria plan to employees, they are motivated to make good use of the money, shoppiing hard and then taking good use of the tools they buy with money they don't have to pay any income tax on. I still get to deduct the money.
Then they get to use those same tools on side jobs rto make even more money.
Keeping the money and all the tools under my control puts me in total control and the help feeling like they are only that - the help, unrewarded and without much cahnce of getting ahead. And I get to watch careless attitude destroy or lose good tools that I need working to make me money..
Excellence is its own reward!
exception, when the tools are very specialized and the employee is paid based on that specialty..
IE timber framers..
Most own their own tools.. from 16 inch saws and big planers to the slicks and etc..
A regular carp may earn 15 an hour outstate and 25 in the metro area.
a timberframer will earn closer to 25 outstate and as much as 40 in the metro area.. he also has 20,000 worth of tools etc.
I supply all power and stationary tools. Also all extension cords, hoses, ladders, scaffolding, drop clothes, wheelbarrows, shovels, sledgehammers, jacks, levels, prybars larger than 12" (pouch-sized), torches, ramsets, brushes, pans, rollers, and sprayers, and cleaning equipment, including 20L buckets....
I expect a carp or apprentice to show up with a framing hammer, a smooth-faced finish hammer, a pouch, a tape, a pencil, and a rough chisel for reefing. It's nice if they have a few other odds and ends, but I leave my own personal hand-tool box on site and it's contents are available to all my people. Except for my personal hammers and pouch and tape, of course.
I expect a labourer to show up with appropriate clothing, including work gloves--although my truck always has a few spare pairs of gloves in the back just in case.
I don't hire individual plumbers or electricians; if I don't do that work myself I bring in my preferred subs, and they are expected to show fully equipped, hand, power and incidentals, although I frequently work side-by-side with them and we then use whoever's tools are closest, for convenience sake.
I expect my people to understand and accept that I'm paying them less than I'm charging the customer for their time, and to take care when using the tools I provide. Accidents happen and nobody is ever docked for busting something that way. Carelessness is another thing, and will get you fired or at the very least hollered at. Only I have the right to heave my @#$%?&*&?%$# tape measure across the site when it slips off for the seventh time and the blade slices my fingers to add injury to insult...'cause I'm the one that has to pay to buy the new one, LOL.
I don't particularly like someone bring in their own power tools, because I don't want to be responsible for repairing or sharpening theirs as well as mine. But it doesn't happen often; my people know my stuff is good quality and well maintained--often better than their own stuff.
I am glad that I still run a small enough operation that this set up still works well. I don't know how well it would fly in a larger outfit.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Ok, here is what I do. I expect the guys who work for me to have a set of basic tools...ie a tape measure, pencil, hammer, screw drivers, plyers, basic stuff.
The power tools, I supply and I maintain. But they also know that I make the profit on the jobs, not them. I have the costs associated with the jobs not them. But I also expect them to use the appropiate care of my tools. If I see you toss my tools, or miss handle them I will call you on it. and at the end of the dday I expect that we will all be working together to get the tools provided by me stowed safely back into my vehicle.
I had one guy that particuliarly liked his own tools.....I told him no problem, but they are your responsibility not mine.......he used mine!
The 'profit' I make on my billing of hours versus my payroll costs comes out to a bit over $2.50 per man hour billed. Actually, it comes out to a bit under that, because if I make a mistake that I feel I can't charge off to the customer--I still pay the guys the time they were on site even if those hours are not billable and I have to eat it. Fortunately, this doesn't happen often.
My real profit comes from my own billable hours; what I make on materials and labour mark-up is peanuts, and at the end of the year if equipment and tool amortization is factored in, it probably evens out to zero.
The only way I can continue to operate like this is to have no standing overhead--no truck payments, no warehouse, no outside shop (I use the one in my own home or set up a temporary fabrication shop on site when necessary and possible), no full-time employees. Everybody gets paid when we're working--nobody gets paid when we're not. But they run no risk except not having a guarantee of work (and there's never any real guarantee, as we all know), while I run the risk of having to make good out of my own pocket if anything goes wrong. I think that justifies a couple of peanut butter sandwiches from time to time for the ol' bossman.
As I said in my post earlier, I'm glad I'm still small enough to get away with this type of operation; but if I double my billing next year like I did last year, I'm not sure I'll be able to keep it up. We'll have to see, and play it by ear....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
When did you start living my life? We are on the same page, and operating the same way.
Without guys that operate at this level, HOs would be stuck buying building services from the contracting equivalent of the Big Box store or some kind of multi-national like Chrysler. Which means the quality would go down, and the price would skyrocket.
I'll give you a medal, if you'll give me one....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
You don't deserve a medal. You need an education.
Start reading all the posts on this board having to do with business. Better yet read the lates JLC. Theres an article about markup and margin.
Otherwise, you are just an unpaid whore.
More importantly, you have a responsibility to yourself, your family your employees and your business, to make money in this endeavor.
And I don't mean 2.50/ hour off your labor, assuming your paying them more than a dollar and hour.
Sounds like you're in business to do favors.
Thanks for making it tough on the rest of us.
Unfortunately, there are alot of "businessmen" out there who think a lot like you. Report back in 5 years when you have either wised up, or gone out of business.
Tom
I'm here to help the humans.
The picture you posted of yourself on your Breaktime profile succinctly describes my opinion of you, too, Shirley Temple....
But to answer a couple of your points:
1. Don't call me a whore, paid or unpaid. I just woke up one day after working for about 30-odd years and realized I'd been working for @sswholes for most of my life and decided I wasn't going to do that anymore. If you're not that smart, that's not my problem.
2. I do make money. I just figured out how I can have a very nice and comfortable life without having to rip off or screw over everybody around me, from my employees to my customers.
3. I pay my guys between 15 and 25% OVER union scale. You got a problem with that, go see the union.
4. I am in business to do favours. This is based on the philosophy that what goes around, comes around. I do favours for my guys. They pay me back in kind when I need one, too. I do favours for my customers. Their loyalty is unwavering, and they pay their bills on time. And I do a favour for the entire construction industry by giving everybody with whom I deal a good impression of contractors to help counteract the widely prevailing one that we're all a bunch of money-grubbing theives who're only in business for one thing: to make money.
5. If I can make it tough for guys with your kind of attitude, well, so much the better for the industry as a whole. For the world as a whole, I ought to say.
6. I won't bother reporting back in five years. I've already been doing this for more than twice that long, and from what I hear, it's you who's more likely to be out of business in five years than me.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Dinosaur,
"And I do a favour for the entire construction industry by giving everybody with whom I deal a good impression of contractors to help counteract the widely prevailing one that we're all a bunch of money-grubbing theives who're only in business for one thing: to make money."
Is there a problem with that motive?
Jon Blakemore
There's no problem with the motive in itself--the problem comes when it becomes the only motive. From there to 'The end justifies the means' is just a short slip of the subconscious away, and bingo--our industry rep winds up in the dumpster again....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Agreed.
Jon Blakemore
Dinosaur,
I hope your kind never goes extinct!
You have it SO right!
One of the main problems with this industry, and the world for that matter is greed.
Mking a comfortable living is OK but stepping on people to make more, just because you can has become the preferred MO.
There are too many business people who think that if there is win-win solution then it just means that they can screw the other guy a little harder and win more!
Make me an offer!!!Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
Thanks, T. Even when you know in your bellybutton that you're right, it's nice to get outside confirmation from time to time.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
The 'profit' I make on my billing of hours versus my payroll costs comes out to a bit over $2.50 per man hour billed. Actually, it comes out to a bit under that, because if I make a mistake that I feel I can't charge off to the customer--I still pay the guys the time they were on site even if those hours are not billable and I have to eat it. Fortunately, this doesn't happen often.
Ok, so for the sake of the argument, lets say you have ten guys, and by you last statement and the ones that follow, you make $25/ hour contribution to profit and overhead. For fun, lets pretend that you spend no time managing, equipping, and supplying said ten employees with work, tools and supplies. Now out of that 52k per year, again, for fun, lets say you spend no time, doing all the other things, that managing 10 employees, all the jobs (lets say 5 at a time), paperwork,etc. Is 52k adequate compensation for all of the liability you are incurring? At ten employees, you must be doing 1M a year, gross! If you only have one or two, I hate to say it, but I actually feel pity for you.
My real profit comes from my own billable hours; what I make on materials and labour mark-up is peanuts, and at the end of the year if equipment and tool amortization is factored in, it probably evens out to zero.
You have billable hours after doing all of this? Please enlighten me in you business program. Honestly, maybe I need to eat some humble pie, Shirley Temple.
The only way I can continue to operate like this is to have no standing overhead--no truck payments, no warehouse, no outside shop (I use the one in my own home or set up a temporary fabrication shop on site when necessary and possible), no full-time employees. Everybody gets paid when we're working--nobody gets paid when we're not. But they run no risk except not having a guarantee of work (and there's never any real guarantee, as we all know), while I run the risk of having to make good out of my own pocket if anything goes wrong. I think that justifies a couple of peanut butter sandwiches from time to time for the ol' bossman.
Sounds like we're playing the old my employees are "subs" game. Do you have a comp policy? Do your "subs"? Maybe you are paying over union scale to your "subs".
Dinosaur (a fitting namesake), you are funny. Fortunately for you, a lot of people don't have the reading comprehension skills to understand what you wrote before they reply. Obviously you don't.
I'd tear your post apart word for word, but being a dinasaur with your brain size to body mass ratio, it would be pointless.
I'm wondering where you "heard" of me and my business.
Please don't beat your wife or your dog on my account when you read this.
I'd love to meet you for coffee, and breathe in some of your wisdom.
Have great day!!
Tom
I'm here to help the humans.
I'm here to help the humans.
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That is the picture you posted of yourself in your profile, isn't it? And that is your tag line?
Sounds to me like the only human you're here to help is yourself....
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
Hey Dinosaur,
Why not look at the words you typed?
You said something to the effect that you don't know how long you will be able to go on with your current system. Want me to repost it?
Look around you for the nearest wall. Then talk to it. You have a lot to learn, even from a wall.
Bye, Bye.
Hope you get that medal you feel you deserve!Tom
I'm here to help the humans.
Tommy B,
What is it specifically that you feel Dinosaur is doing wrong with his business plan/setup? I take it you feel he should be charging more for his/ his company's services, this resulting in more profit from the jobs. Its kind of hard to critic or give advice, since we dont really know Dinosaur's business plan at all, but what do you think/feel would be some good changes?
For me, I think I would want to make more than $2.50/hr profit from my employees, but I dont know. What do others usually make off of there employees time?
Thanx,
M2akita
Food for thought .............
Disregard hairdresser gear please
PS. this is a work in progress with our local
Novy,
To put things in perspective, I estimated the price of the tools required of the "scenic carpenter" (I'm guessing either that's supposed to mean lead, or you're in a theatrical environment, like Jerrald H). I don't think you would spend more than $1500 to get everything you need in good quality, Lie Nielsen plane fans need not apply. With the exception of the cordless drill, all the tools would last 5-50 years, properly cared for.
The cost of the tools on the list are a mere fraction of the my cost for van and tools.
This is not criticism, just comparison.
BTW- I assume this is union? What is your scale for the three levels of skill?
Jon Blakemore
Hi Jon,
Thanks for the reply..........
"Novy,
To put things in perspective, I estimated the price of the tools required of the "scenic carpenter" (I'm guessing either that's supposed to mean lead, or you're in a theatrical environment, like Jerrald H). I don't think you would spend more than $1500 to get everything you need in good quality, Lie Nielsen plane fans need not apply. With the exception of the cordless drill, all the tools would last 5-50 years, properly cared for.
The cost of the tools on the list are a mere fraction of the my cost for van and tools.
This is not criticism, just comparison.
BTW- I assume this is union? What is your scale for the three levels of skill?"
I will start at the end of your question..... The rates ?
Construction Coordinator
Negotiable
Negotiable
Negotiable
Construction Foreman/Lead
$27.50
$26.50
$25.50
Assistant Lead Carpenter
$24.50
$23.50
$22.50
Scenic Carpenter
$22.50
$21.00
$20.00
Construction Buyer/Clerk
$18.50
$17.50
$16.50
Carpenter's Assistant
$18.00
$16.00
$16.00
Labourer
$16.10
$15.40
$14.00
These rates reflect the size of the show.
Not theatrical ....... Film
PS. The Coordinator suplies the tools ( The whole package )
The lead supplies the brains
The Asst. lead supplies the rest
On a hill by the harbour
Edited 1/6/2004 6:58:26 PM ET by NOVY_7
Responsibilities Hopefully attachedOn a hill by the harbour