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Discussion Forum

Who to go for electric code violations?

rickchem | Posted in General Discussion on October 1, 2006 11:48am

I have a 3 yo home, second owner.  Replacing all the cheap light fixtures with period and quality appropriate; I’ve found some minor sloppy work, mostly insulation pulled out of flush fixtures (just a thought- they put it in there for a reason, maybe?!).  But today, I pulled a bathroom fixture and found no box- just a hole in the wall and wirenuts/junctions tucked into the wall cavity, right up against a stud. 

I have no problem putting in a proper box- I’m a recovering drywaller/part time renovater/ heavy DIY- but, it just doesn’t seem *right* for this to go unaddressed, because either the builder or inspector dropped the ball. 

Who would you go to first- the permits office, or the builder?  Is it even worth bringing up at all?  Is anyone responsible except myself, ala caveat emptor?  Maybe naive, but it seems pretty serious to me.  It also makes me wonder about the rest of the house. . .

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  1. CAGIV | Oct 01, 2006 11:52pm | #1

     I do not know if it is part of the electric code or not, however it is common practice around here to not have a box for bathroom bar fixtures.   It's not a good practice IMO but they get away with it.

    At this point there probably isn't much you can do to anyone who worked on the house and it probably wouldn't be worth your aggervation to try. 

     

    Team Logo

  2. calvin | Oct 02, 2006 02:42am | #2

    It is appropriate to make up the connections INSIDE the bar or fl. fixture.  Outside is not, nor is it commonplace.  No recourse now I would think, but it would also pique my interest on other connections which took the easy way out. 

    OR,

    the previous homowner replaced or installed it themselves and again, keep an eye out for other goofs.

    A great place for Information, Comraderie, and a sucker punch.

    Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.

    Quittin' Time

     

  3. Piffin | Oct 02, 2006 04:06am | #3

    Come on up here. I just did some hack electricaal work on my own house!

    Or - you ould go to HD, I hear they are a good plae to go for violations of code advice, LOL

    Seriously - the junctions in the wall should be in a box, but like Cal said, it might have been added by the previous owner.
    That is where I see most violations happen. Just keep your eyes open to fix whaat neeeds fixing, but it would probbly be a waste of energy to try chasing ssomebody.

     

     

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    1. highfigh | Oct 02, 2006 04:12am | #4

      I'm pretty sure the NEC calls for ALL high voltage connections to be made inside of a box. If it's metallic clad (BX), the box should be metallic inless the plastic box has clamps that are metallic and allow connecting a ground wire. If the wire is in metal conduit, the box must be grounded and a ground wire must run the length of the circuit.Actually, it's not a bad idea for low voltage splices to be in a box if they're in a plenum.I get to deal with some similar crap this week- I'm replacing a furnace (which I found out last week that has to be done by a licensed HVAC contractor. Too bad I finished it already), my electrical has to be done by a licensed sparky and the furnace has to have it's own breaker on a dedecated circuit. Mine is on a circuit with a bunch of lights and recepticals. I'll bet the city won't take any responsibility for missing the code requirement for the separate circuit, even though they did a "thorough" inspection when I bought the place, 11 years ago. If they make me spend a buttload of money on this, I'm gonna be seriously PO'd. They're making me want to move the hell away from here.

      "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

      Edited 10/1/2006 9:19 pm by highfigh

  4. alwaysoverbudget | Oct 02, 2006 04:45am | #5

    i see this quite a bit. technically there is no connection in the wall,only in the bar light.i usally just throw in a remodel plastic box-sideways so it won't stick out on either side of box. here no box would pass code as long as connections are in the light channel.larry

    hand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.

  5. rickchem | Oct 02, 2006 06:05am | #6

    Thanks all!  I figured as much, just do it myself and suck it up.  I've seen where the connections are made in the light bar or fixture, but this was more of a flushmount sconce.  I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, and they probably just left a stub there for the assumed light bar- but with this fixture, no room for the junction inside, so they just tucked the wire nuts inside the wall.  I'll through a box in and move onto fixing other shoddy items!

     

     

    1. User avater
      BillHartmann | Oct 02, 2006 07:21am | #7

      Another reason for leaving a stud is that the exact locaton of the fixture is not know.Wnat to wait until the mirror/medicne cabinet is mounted to get the right location.

    2. Mooney | Oct 02, 2006 08:36am | #8

      It is acceptable to make the connection in some types of fixtures as Calvin pointed out .  Wire nuts inside the wall cavity are illegal.

      You arent a  licensed electrician  . This sounds a little odd for a homeowner to be doing his own work and complaining . Truth be known you probably wont help the situation. Not because you are not a good guy , but limited education on the subject. You could start with an electrician since you asked the question you did.

      As far as the inspection service goes , they will cite the job  now . You cant catch everything inspecting and they arent responsible for whats done after the inspection is done. Happens every single day over 20,000 times. There is also  incompetent inspectors but you wont prove it now and neither any electrician that worked on that house unless you have pictures of him doing the work.

      Tim

       Memphest 2006

      November 18th

      1. nikkiwood | Oct 02, 2006 10:25am | #9

        I agree with every body else that there's nothing you can do about it. But it might be interesting to call your building department and see what kind of permits have been pulled over the years.********************************************************
        "It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."

        John Wooden 1910-

      2. torn | Oct 02, 2006 04:59pm | #11

        "You arent a  licensed electrician  . This sounds a little odd for a homeowner to be doing his own work and complaining."

        Why?  There aren't capable homeowners out there who can not only recognize something that doesn't look right, but also fix it?  Many locales don't require a licensed electrician for limited repair work (replacing outlets, switches, fixtures, etc.)  And how do you know he's not licensed, other than by the type of question he asked?  His original post stated that he is a "recovering drywaller/part time renovater/ heavy DIY", indicating that he's probably had significant exposure to the trades.  It doesn't take a brain surgeon (or a licensed electrician) to install a box if it's needed and make the appropriate (and safe, approved, code-compliant) connections.

        I don't disagree that calling an electrician isn't a bad idea, but he just asked a question...

        1. Mooney | Oct 02, 2006 05:27pm | #12

          Because from my experience of inspecting electricians work there are many violations.

          Homeowners doing there own electrical is horrendous in most cases.

          It takes a working knowledge with book knowledge most of the time .

          In most cases its simalar to hiring the lawmower guy to do your taxes.

          In most locales it is legal for the homeowner to to their own work if they can pass inspections. Most of the time they cant with out supervision or training .

          Its like saying anyone can paint which seems simple and compared it is but with out a working knowledge they most often dont cut it .

          I dont classify electrical work as DIY project because of saftey.

          He asked who to contact and I answered it based on his question. There was nothing wrong with asking the question.

          Tim

           

           Memphest 2006

          November 18th

          1. User avater
            BillHartmann | Oct 02, 2006 05:46pm | #13

            There is something else that migh have happened here.That the rough in was done correctly by the electrican. But when it was time to do the finish install they only sent out "helpers".I found that in my own house. A day or two before I was to move in they would finishing up and the helper said that one of the wires was short and the electrican was on vacation to replace that wire, but they had an alternate place to get the power.I was very busy at the time and assumed that THEY DID IT RIGHT WAY.Years later I found that the hot was shorted to the ground and neutral on one leg. They cut those off at each end and tied them to the ground from from a cable that feed downstream devices. That would nto have worked except downstream there was a multiple gain box with other circuits in it and thus other grounds.When tracing that out I also found that the furances, which where on a multi-wire circuit the two hots had been tied together, one switch was used for a disconnect, and at the panel the hots where moved so that they where on the same leg.I don't know who did this, but I susect that it was the furnace installers.

          2. Mooney | Oct 02, 2006 06:39pm | #14

            Thats pretty much a testiment of even pros at  work.

            HVAC is trained and licensed to wire with in so many feet of their unit . Its not like they are not trained.

            Tim Memphest 2006

            November 18th

          3. rickchem | Oct 02, 2006 09:19pm | #15

            To be honest, I hate doing electrical work- I'd much rather have an electrician do it.  I limit myself to installing/replacing fixtures.  I understand how horrendous electrical work can be, from homeowners or even electricians, and I know my limitations.  In this case, an electrician would likely not even return my call, so I'll pop the box in myself. It is a single line drop, so there is no complex connection- can only get better than before.  Although with the housing slow down, maybe I could actually hire someone from the various trades.  Maybe.

          4. hasbeen | Oct 02, 2006 09:59pm | #16

            I think you overstate the case, Tim.Sure, there's people who do stupid things to their own homes everyday (in every category), but there are also a vast majority of owners who simply wouldn't tackle such a thing and there are a growing number of DIYers, retirees, and various other non-licensed folks who can certainly do some safe and code correct residential wiring.In about any category, the ones who start with research, instead of starting with tools, will usually do a much better job, IMO.+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd." Voltaire

          5. gb93433 | Oct 02, 2006 10:17pm | #18

            "Sure, there's people who do stupid things to their own homes everyday (in every category), but there are also a vast majority of owners who simply wouldn't tackle such a thing and there are a growing number of DIYers, retirees, and various other non-licensed folks who can certainly do some safe and code correct residential wiring.In about any category, the ones who start with research, instead of starting with tools, will usually do a much better job, IMO."My dad is one of those. He retired from the utility company. He does fantastic work. When I started working as a carpenter I was shocked at some of the sloppy electrical work I saw in comparison to what I had seen him doing as I grew up. A development he built after he retired, the city required the work to be done by a licensed electrician. He really griped about that. So he went down and got his license. He came back telling me how easy it was and it was really nothing more than a simple piece of paper. He was disgusted at the idea, especially because they required so little compared to what he had retired from.

      3. gb93433 | Oct 02, 2006 10:06pm | #17

        "You arent a licensed electrician . This sounds a little odd for a homeowner to be doing his own work and complaining . Truth be known you probably wont help the situation. Not because you are not a good guy , but limited education on the subject. You could start with an electrician since you asked the question you did."Most states I have lived in the homeowner can do his own work. Some of it must be inspected and some it does not have to. Other states only a licensed electrician can do work on a building. Some states requite a licensed electrician and plumber but not a general contractor to do the work. It shows too. It always seemed odd to me that those states are more worried about the electrical and plumbing but they did not seem to care much abou the building.

  6. Shacko | Oct 02, 2006 04:58pm | #10

    You are lucky. I worked on a house years ago where the owner was finishing off his basemmet, he put boxes in,but he made them out of coffee cans!!! He set his house on fire!, that $50.00 that he saved cost him about $15,000; his insurance refused to pay. The only thing that I can say is to get as many of these hook-ups out that you can, most insurance companies will look for any reason to deny a claim. Lots of luck.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    "When all else fails, read the directions"

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