Just read an interesting new article on the Housing Zone web site tonght that had some intersting numbers and figures in it.
Who will build the future?
Lifestyle changes, college mean fewer young adults enter building trades.
Any comments, ideas, or solutions out there?
A high-performance single-family home builder shares tips from his early experience with two apartment buildings.
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Replies
WOW, thats a very good question. I have a 8 y.o. boy my goal is him to have both a trade and a degree. But with guys sitting behind a desk pulling down big bucks why do it. Its a very tough question......
Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
"But with guys sitting behind a desk pulling down
big bucks why do it."
Ron, I'm not so sure about the big bucks for desk work like your thinking anymore.
The other day I saw a list of entry level computer jobs that a kid had left
on a table in the local coffee shop where I go and looking at the numbers I
know of entry level carpentry jobs that pay just as well. I think the tide may
be turning somewhat due to the laws of supply and demand. Due to the increasing
scarcity of carpenters it might be time to start recommending to the kids of
today who will be entering the job market in the years to come to consider carpentry.
Maybe??? Doctor wages are actually going down from what I've heard. Maybe we'll
be closing the gap? (Just an alternative point of view)
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
We seem to import most of them now. Recently I went on a job site that had a crew of about a dozen Mexicans. Not one spoke english. It made getting answers interesting. I had to wait for their boss to get back. They put up with conditions that few native carpenters would put up with.
They were going at it. From what I observed they had one tired old B&D sidewinder and two chainsaws for cutting and were sharing the single carpenters pencil. Industrious individuals doing about as good a job as could be expected under the conditions. With these handicaps they were still moving fast and built the 3 story apartment blocks very quickly. I can't say the quality was there but it passed inspection, on the third try, and will likely stand long enough for the check to the builder to clear. Being speculative properties the builder/developer just wants to get his CO and check as quickly and cheaply as possible.
When the Mexicans ask for more money and better working conditions I guess the builders will hire Portuguese or Chinese. Chimpanzees if the developer though he could get away with it. Moving down the line as each moves up in price. So it goes. In the 1890 it was the Germans and then the Irish.
Haven't we hashed this over before?
I've been hearing since 1970 that construction workers were going to be scarce, and that their wages would go up a great deal. But that hasn't happened. And I don't see any reason to think it will.
I also disagree with the "guys sitting behind desks making big bucks" statement. I've ben behind a desk for 18 years, and make less than union carpenters. I think this attitude comes from hearing about guys on wall street pulling down big salaries.
So what WILL happen? Probably more mexican and other foreign workers. (That's already happening) Maybe more females? Probably more prefabrication instead of jobsite building - Things have been moving in that direction slowly over the past 50 years anyway.
It will be an interesting ride..........
One time a cop pulled me over for running a stop sign. He said, "Didn't you see the stop sign?" I said, "Yeah, but I don't believe everything I read."
I haven't seen a huge increase in wages or people beating my door down because everybody feels there is a shortage of skilled workers. There may shortages in certain areas like large cities but I feel that it is only because, how in the hell can you afford to live there on carpenter wages and why would you. Unless you like the night life and who in this business has a the time to do things like that, why would you. The company that work I work for usually does 50 to 100 million in electrical contracts has laid off almost all of its guys because the economy sucks. There are no big contracts given out.
Carpenters wages will always be where they are now. Any hack can pick up ahammer and call himself a carp. People, customers and contractors, are just to cheap. Maybe if people decided they would like to pay 40$ to sit in a stadium and watch us put up a house, I could negotiate a 14 year 145million$ deal. Nah all that money would just make me..............................RICH!!!!
T
Do not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
Boss,
I think you're right about the pre-fab thing. A local pre-fab builder is turning out like 30 homes a month, and there not all little ranches. Panelized components are also showing up more often . Don't see much shortage around here. I believe there are like 300 licensed contractors in my general area, with a population of about 30 thousand in a 50 mile radius.
Brudoggie
An interesting conversation. For years I have been saying that ONE DAY, there wont be enough carpenters around who know how to do the good stuff and THEN, I am going to make a bundle!
I keep waiting. <G> The apprenticeship system here is a mess, not anywhere near enough new guys coming in and they dont get to learn what i considered the basics...............hang a door, install windows and frame up their own stuff. ( Including the roof )
There is a bit of a boom on right now, so hirable carpenters are rare. Good hirable ones are like chicken lips. Pay has gone up too. ( about damn time ) So I figgure there may be hope yet. Doctors are certainly not making what they used to.
Is it possible that there is a quiet shift in public attitude where a manual skill is seen as valuable and not a sign of a lower class? I am starting to think it might be so lately.
Wood Hoon
Could we end up like the Kuwaitis? Practical physical skills neglected and nationalized they hand those tasks to cheap imported labor. This continued until , at the time of the Iraqi invasion, a common observation was that many Kuwaitis couldn't change a light bulb.
This was admitted by at least two Kuwaiti men who were comparing their lack of skills before the invasion and after they had been in the resistance for some time. One was bragging that he had learned how to jump start a truck. Will we become dependant on imported labor or are we too late all ready?
I sincerely hope we never get that bad.
Just the location of our country means that a fair bit of independance will always be maintained. But, i have noticed an increasing number of people ( young people ) who seem totally unable to do minor car or home maintenance. Cant seem to come up with the clues to cook etc.
I have no complaints at all about being called in to do it and get paid, but I do wonder how bad things would get in the event of a disaster where all services get cut. I know way too many who couldnt light a fire and cook on it.
Wood Hoon
I wonder if this has anything to do with thee general poor level of workmanship I see in so many of the rich folks houses. It used to be that every family has one or more people connected to a trade that understood how houses were built and what to look for. These brothers, uncles and cousins would steer you away from poor construction. With fewer people associated with trades lots of families are buying houses that are expensive but cheaply made. Without the skilled family members they don't know any better. Lots of these well to do people don't seem to know what to look for and so they end up with very expensive trash IMHO.
You have a point. A lot of people regardless of income level are only focused on the look of the finished product. How it got that way doesnt seem to interest them at all.
We have a situation here where the mediteranean style of house, sheathed in polystyrene and plastered, is very popular. But, the damn things are failing at a pretty good rate. Reason is, lots of chemical free framing, water that enters via cracks cant get out = rot. LOTS of rot. What stuns me more though is despite this problem being on national news, this is still the preferred style. I wonder if they think that THEIR house will be different?
Wood Hoon
Two more cents.
There is not enough money to be made by paying a good carp a good wage.
Especially when you can hire a hack at half the wage and most people can't tell the difference.
TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
Lots of good comments, and I have to agree with Mr. T.
I work in a technical field, get paid good money for sitting on my a** all day, mostly bored and hating my job. My job completely lacks the satisfaction factor that I receive when doing construction. I've been doing construction for quite a few years on the side (primarily for myself) and love it, but I recognize two things that keep me from switching careers.
1. There's always some yahoo with a pickup, ladder, hammer, and dog that will call himself a contractor and undermine all the real ones out there. These are the reason the wages are depressed. When you don't have the insurances, don't do quality work, and are in no way legit, that's unfair competition. Yes, the legit guys will still get plenty of business (because they'll be called in when the hacks quit the job, screw up the job, or when the owners realize that they get what they pay for), but it makes it harder.
2. Let's face it, construction beats the crap out of you. I only do it part time (about 3-3.5 days per week when you add up the hours), and I come into "work" with my fingers numb from the carpal tunnel. I remember doing it full time in and out of high school... my hands got so bad I'd up be up five or six times a night shaking them to try to get feeling back. I'm by no means a wimp when it comes to physical exertion, but there's a difference between hard work and long-term pain due to carpal, torn disks (I know a few carps that have those as "battle wounds"), etc.
Just my $.02 worth...
Okay here's some more fuel for the fire. The other day I was watching the morning
news and they mentioned a story that would be on the news that evening regarding
auto mechanics that were earning six-figure salaries. I missed the news that
evening but I saw this Knight Ridder Newspapers story on the net that was about
the same subject:
From that article...
And...
And...
And...
Why aren't we making these kinds of statements and predictions for our industry?
Does Auto Mechanics require a hire skill level and a greater level of intelligence
than Roof Framing or Stairbuilding?
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Another reason carps rarely get paid well is that most contractors used to be carpenters. They were under paid and decided to go it on there own. Then they put in all the hard work of making the business successful . Then they finally get to the point where they can hire some help, and they want someone who will bust his #### like they did but expect them to be happy with the meager salary that was the reason they went out on thier own in the first place. Seems like your memory gets short when its your money that goes otu in payroll.
I did it myself!!, I hate it when a boss calls it his money!! It's the company's money. If the carps dont work there will be no checks coming in. I t is my firm belief that the boss should work as hard for the employee as the employee works for the boss. When you hand me my paycheck I have earned it and more, I have to do enough work so you can charge for my time and for your overhead.
I have put at least as much time and effort into my profession as most contractors. But since i have not opted to go into businees that some how means I don't deserve to make a living comprable to other fields.
my train of thought has derailed! it has been a long week.
TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
T, I think you've put your finger on one of the tragic self-defeating ironies
that we as contractors punish ourselves with when you say;
Another thing I reading the other day was about “What Do Employees Really
Want? The Perception vs. The Reality,”. One of the things I gather from
what I read was that --"For early career employees (30 and under)
job security does not have a positive effect on either retention or commitment,
whereas career advancement is very significant to the retention of this group."--
It's incredibly rare to hear about career path development amongst the bulk
of the contractor that I know. No wonder then that they aren't attracting or
retaining any of that demographic.
Boss Hog said earlier "Haven't we hashed this over before? " Yeah
we have but as best I can determine form all those part discussions we still
haven't put forth any possible alternatives or solutions to the problem. We
gripe about it but nothing is happening to change anything.
That's one of the reasons I think our industry is caught in a potentially catastrophic
negative reinforcing loop. A French schoolchildren's tale illustrates the process
and the potential danger of the problem we may be facing. Lily pads can grow
fast. Imagine that you discover a variety of lily pads that can double in number
every day. First there is just one lily pad in a corner of a pond. But every
day the number of lily pads doubles. For the first 28 day no one barely notices
then on the 29 day the villagers become concerned when they notice the pond
is half full of lily pads but by this time there is little if anything that
can be done. The next day, the 30th, their worst fears come true and the pond
is full of lily pads.
The article I originally referenced said:
While that's not as bad as the lily pad example it's certainly approaching
it. If we need 225,000 workers each year and only get 155,000 (75,000 short)
then that means the next year we'll need to get 300,000. The same 225,000 plus
the 75,000 we failed to get the year before. The problem will only get geometrically
worse each year.
What does this mean to the small contrating enterprise or busines and the competion
for talent?
And what will happen as a result of this to the one-man shows?
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Either we will have Mexicans doing our work, or the pay will have to be good enough to draw our kids for example. This is not a very good business to invest in as a young man , or lady . I dont think I need to list all the reasons why. We can not compete with factories now !!!!!!!!!
Tim Mooney
The problem ain't the pay Tim. At least I don't think so and some of my research
is bearing me out on that too. As I mentioned in my
post earlier --"The other day I saw a list of entry level computer
jobs that a kid had left on a table in the local coffee shop where I go and
looking at the numbers I know of entry level carpentry jobs that pay just as
well." While that's just an anecdotal example it supports what I've read
elsewhere and that article regarding auto mechanics being able to make six-figures
parallels it to. Hey construction superintendents around here all make six-figures.
However as I also just mentioned above --""For early career employees
(30 and under) ... career advancement is very significant to the retention
of this group." I think the problem is the career outlook we present
to these 30 and under prospects. A building and remodeling contractor we hire
bodies to use as tools and not as minds that can think and problem solve. I
think that's a bigger part of the problem. What do you think?
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Maybe I do need to explain why. benifits , retirement , nice place to work, central air and heat , not responsible for even clothes , not necesary to have transportation , company matching stocks feature, profit sharing , will pay for your education , scolarships for your children , many have incentive programs in place, need I go on ?
RE:benifits , retirement , nice place to work, central
air and heat , not responsible for even clothes , not necesary to have transportation
, company matching stocks feature, profit sharing , will pay for your education
, scolarships for your children , many have incentive programs in place
Why don't we? How come some many other businesses can
offer those kinds of things yet we can't?
"Do not go where the path may lead, go instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Edited 6/28/2002 10:34:03 PM ET by Jerrald Hayes
Because our companies arent as profitable . Im my opinion .
Tim Mooney
"Because our companies arent as profitable . Im my opinion ." Your
absolutly right on that one Tim
Yup your right about that one for sure. But for no real
good reasons though. One of the problem/reasons is the dominatnt felling among
most contractors is that they think they need to compete on price whereas most
of the really sucessful businesses in other industries have figured out that
not really the case. Even the companies that we know of and identify as low
cost providers aren't really competing with each other on price ( Home Depot
vs Lowes for example) They compete against each other on the "value proposition"
they deliver.
So therefore then the builder-remodeler-contractor
that has figured out how to really market and sell on value and who is earning
nice consistant proifits is in the best position to win the coming Talent War??? Sound right???
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
Yes, it sounds right in specialty trades. My favorite is the handy man business, although Im not one. Sonny has shed great light on that for me. Now if I could put a fleet of Sonny's in the field. Well, capable of doing any thing a building threw at him. I will say men that know several trades well.
However; I dont see it in the house building market , not ours any way. I can still hire a carpenter to frame me a house for 15 dollars an hour, and so can all my friends. I can still hire a carpenter and put him on payroll for 12 dollars an hour. These men will work for anyone for that money , and they are not to bad. Trusses , doors ,drywall, cabinets, etc. are not done by carpenters any more. The only things a carpenter can do to stand out is frame a " from hell roof", or a complicated set of stairs. Real carpenters have just about been fased out around here . Now they are installers . Theres a guy that shows up that says "stairs on his van " , or harwood floors and stairs. There is only one man on the job that needs to be able to cut a roof , and he can also be hired for a short time. You know the type . He was a builder , but now he is semi retired , and he will come out and cut a complicated roof by the hour. So the rest of the hands on the job could be elementry teachers working for the summer . Where is the specialty in a carpenter any more ?? Im sorry to have to do this guys , but it stands .
Tim Mooney
Tim I have no problems with specialists (in fact I'm a specialist). The all-around carpenter who can do everything is fine for what he is but the jack-of-all-trades-excells-at-nothing rule bears some weight. I happen to a stair and railing specialist. My van goes out to project venues with about $12,000 worth of tools. I need them (or might need them) to do what it is I do. If I was an all-around carpenter and I was off doing a deck about 90% of that stuff would be gathering dust and the would be a few tools and pieces of equipment that I would need instead. Then again the drywall specialist doesn't need any of the equipment I carry and the stuff he does need is will cost 1/10th of what my stuff did.
The specialist-all around carpenter debate is a whole other issue to discuss that I was hoping to engage with Jim Blodgett on one day . I know he's a fervent all-around-carpenter advocate and I really respect his opinions and point of views even though some of mine run counter to his on that topic. BUT that's not the issue here. Start another topic discussion on that one and I join in. In the fact the company I envisioned that I would like to build is a company of specialists.
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
In other words , they have these things in addition to what you read on that sheet. Many get to work with co workers that look and smell better. [I had to do that one ]
I think remodleling is a different story . There is more money in that right now. That needs very experienced help, in several fields, with tools in several fields. Kinda like the car tech thing. What do you do with a kid in remodleling ? [full time ]
Tim Mooney
Tim Mooney
Jerrald, in real numbers the average carpenter might make only slightly less than the average say computer technician, but like people have said think the difference is in how young people perceive the job image btwn carpenters, masons, engineers, computer programmers, etc.
like people have said before the fact is that construction, unlike medicine, law, computers, does not require a high price for entry. so for entry you get a low price.
from the article: "These days, the interest is just not there for young people to work with their hands," he said. "Kids aren't brought up doing that kind of work now, and they don't want to."
And they might not have to. I agree that pre-fab construction is going to get bigger and bigger, to reduce labor hours. I'm not saying the demand for high end contractors and specialists will go down, but if some engineer thinks up a process where one man does the work of 10 men, your 80,000 person shortfall becomes a 8,000 person shortfall.
What's likely to change faster, technology or how people perceive the construction industry? Take two 'revolutions': hand nailing vs. pneumatic nailers, and women in the construction industry. Which has changed faster?
I'm 27 and I feel a strong bond to these issues (though an 18 yo is going to call me old for sure).
One way to alter the perception of construction might be to promote an image-change/business paradigm shift...I'm not talking about gc's rapping or spinning electronica on the job site or whatever but a difference in how businesses are run and for what reasons.
For example, I think that the construction industry could tap into the 'environmental' movement, strong in young people, more than it has already.
high end shops could make an active effort to forge alliances with trade schools and high schools (if they don't already?)
more on the what if end of things the construction industry could go after the college bound...have you been to a college fair? talk about a herd. It's not unrealistic to think that trade schools or even associations of contractors could get a table at one of those fairs if the contractors self-organized into a college...you see weirder things at those fairs...hindu business management colleges, buddhist environmental schools, etc. this might sound weird but how else do you get talent? You don't fish in the same pond if you ain't catching fish.
anyway, a lot to chew on,
GO
GO--"like people have said think the difference
is in how young people perceive the job image btwn carpenters, masons, engineers,
computer programmers, etc. " Yup I certainly agree on that. Did
I say that? That's what I was getting at when I said "I think the problem
is the career outlook we present to these 30 and under prospects. A building
and remodeling contractor we hire bodies to use as tools and not as minds that
can think and problem solve. I think that's a bigger part of the problem."
"...if some engineer thinks up a process where one
man does the work of 10 men, your 80,000 person shortfall becomes a 8,000 person
shortfall." That's very true but that's not happening very fast
at all and should we just sit around and hope and wait for it to happen??? Hope
is Not a Method.
What's likely to change faster, technology or how people
perceive the construction industry? Take two 'revolutions': hand nailing vs.
pneumatic nailers, and women in the construction industry. Which has changed
faster?
Great questions GO! 27 years old huh? Great observations. Want a job? My answer
to the first question is perceptions are the hardest and therefore the last
to change. As for part two I was going to bring up the women in the construction
issue I actually think that that will be a key part of our salvation if it takes
hold and moves. What will it take what can we do to push that kind of change
along? I was holding off on that an sort of hoping someone would carry that
idea over from the How
many female carpenters do you know ? discussion.
One way to alter the perception of construction might
be to promote an image-change/business paradigm shift...I'm not talking about
gc's rapping or spinning electronica on the job site or whatever but a difference
in how businesses are run and for what reasons.
That's just great and I think that's the real core key
action we have to take. ( Ironic side note- my company is Paradigm Associates).
Designing and then generating a regional or sectional paradigm shift is the
major difficulty we face? What would it be? How would it start? The "Green"
movement is taking hold in certain places but I think that's just part of what
can or should happen.
high end shops could make an active effort to forge alliances
with trade schools and high schools (if they don't already?)
'Been thinking about how to do that myself after all the reading I've done
on this subject these past few months. I was thinking of recruiting artists,
metalworkers, and carpenters at my old school SUNY Purchase ( School of Visual
Arts and the Theatre Design & Technology School). Great ideas GO keep thinking.
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
I just wanted to pass this along.
Recently I read somewhere that the CEO of Home Depot wants to increase the volume of installed sales from its current level of $2 Billion to $10 Billion within 5 years.
My question: Who's going to do the work?
BTW Lowes just decided to get out of the installed sales business. Wonder Why.
Thanks, I hadn't heard exactly that but I did know that Home Depot was going to try and increase their volume of increased sales and while I do know one of the ways they are considering handling the problem of "Who's going to do the work? " I'll hold off till tonight or tomorrow to see what some other people might have to say about it. I know the topic of Home Depot draws a lot of passionate discussion here.
(Right now I've got some other real work to take care of while at my desk today too)
"Architecture is the
handwriting of Man." - Bernard
Maybeck.
My question: Who's going to do the work?
I dont know who will do it but we all will get to fix it!!!
TDo not try this at home!
I am a trained professional!
I think the reason that auto mechanics get paid more is because they are supported by big business, the auto manufactures. Another item which probably works in there favor is that they have to go to school to get certified and then they continue with on going training. Plus there jobs are paid by the job and are a fixed fee. You do it quicker and you make more money. I also don't run into to0 many people who just all of sudden get up one day and think they can go diagnos the latest computer controlled lexus etc....
Burpnboy-
I am in a very similar position as you except I have lots of family that are in the construction business. I could of very easily worked in construction as a career but after working for several family members during the summer since I was about 12 I decided to go to college and get an engineering degree. I love construction so I just work on my own house or family/friends, so I get all the enjoyment with out any of the hassles etc.... There is just way too many problems with the residential building industry to make me want to work in it.
When I go to work, I deal with professionals in a professional manner and we all get paid well for it. You don't see engineers, lawyers, CPAs, doctors etc...... all fighting each other trying to be the cheapest. We all demand the highest salaries or else we simply won't work.
The problem is that it does not cost much to "buy in" and many contractors have no problem hiring people who are not qualified or breaking the law etc.....plus homeowners do not demand the best qualified, they are so hung up on getting the best price.
I am curious, what changes would you make in the construction industry to make it a better place to work?
27SEAN the building and remodeling portion of the GDP (Gross Domestic Product)
is roughly four times the size of truck and auto segment and it's well populated
by big businesses too although the market is much more fragmented than trucks
and autos.
While --"I also don't run into too many people who
just all of sudden get up one day and think they can go diagnos the latest computer
controlled lexus etc...."-- may be true I also don't run into too
many people who just all of sudden get up and decide to fabricate curved handrailing
wreaths. As the Auto Mechanic article mentioned "There
are some who certainly make more than $100,000, and there are some who make
less than $50,000. But the average is probably in the $60,000 to $80,000 range
for most technicians." Your not going to make six figures shoveling gravel but
there are plenty of high value skills in our industry that will pay.
"plus homeowners do not demand the best qualified,
they are so hung up on getting the best price." I don't think that
necessarily true as much as it is dominating ( and limiting) belief structure
that most of us have adopted. All the real good remodeling salesmen will tell
you that's a myth.
I am curious, what changes would you make in the construction
industry to make it a better place to work? I think that
question when you asked it was directed at Burpnboy but that was my whole reason
in bringing up this discussion again. Yeah it's be discussed before, I know
that.
Ya see I'm thinking about growth.
At this stage in my career I want to build a company more than I want to build
and remodel homes. I think the primary key to building a powerful profitable
and viable company is the acquisition of talent. And that the big question facing
all of us and the winners of the talent war are going to be the winners in the
early part of this new century. I really do think we need to rethink our business
models if we are going to survive in the future. In the future the competition
is going to be for clients (i.e. getting the jobs) it going to be getting the
talent to execute the projects that the clients want.
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
"plus homeowners do not demand the best qualified, they are so hung up on getting the best price." I don't think that necessarily true as much as it is dominating ( and limiting) belief structure that most of us have adopted. All the real good remodeling salesmen will tell you that's a myth."
I don't think its a myth. When you give a bid presentation the homeowner only has one thing on there minds, how much? How many times have you given a contract or a estimate to someone and they immediately flip to the last page to see what the price is? How many people are concerned when they get there bathroom remodeled that the shower will be built to TCA guidelines, or when building a new house what kind of main breaker panel they are getting or if you use drywall screws to hang there new kitchen cabinets (got to through that one in :) ). There are only a few items that they care about and price tops the list for most people. This is just my opinion of course. I know people who have gotten 8 or 9 estimates on job searching for a lower price. As a matter of fact I know many contractors that simply do not want to work for homeowners that want to spec. out a job in detail with a very specific scope.
"I am curious, what changes would you make in the construction industry to make it a better place to work? I think that question when you asked it was directed at Burpnboy but that was my whole reason in bringing up this discussion again. Yeah it's be discussed before, I know that. "
I was just asking in general to anybody.
I definitly agree that people will go after the jobs that give the best all around oportunity for advancement, benefits, enviroment, salary etc.... It really is to bad that it is the way it is. I wish it wasn't.
I also think a big problem is that the general public think what these contractors do is very easy, "I mean, just anybody can do it"
How often does that auto mechanic have clients that want to supply all the materials or help perform part of the service to try and drive the price down.
Good luck in building your business. Always spend the money to hire the best and charge your customers what you NEED to charge them to make a certain profit and then market/sell them on the company and product, not price.
27 Sean--There are only a few items that they care about and price
tops the list for most people.
Nah TRUST DOES. You should read or listen to the tape of Selling
The Invisible and think BRANDING. If they TRUST your company (or you, if
your an individuual) then the price is not at all the issue you imagine it is.
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
"Nah TRUST DOES. You should read or listen to the tape of Selling The Invisible and think BRANDING. If they TRUST your company (or you, if your an individuual) then the price is not at all the issue you imagine it is."
You are absolutely right, but how many (insert your favorite trade) have a branded name that the majority of homeowners in the area they work in would know. There are always a few top builders that have accomplished this but for the smaller jobs and other more specific trades (plumber, electrician etc...) the general homeowner doesn't have a clue so they pick a few that they think will do the job and pick the cheapest among the ones that they feel good about.
I was just stating problems in the industry as it is today (IMHO), not what should be done to improve it etc.... I wish every contractor was trying to get jobs based on there product and company instead of price. Some do and they are very profitable, most don;t and they go broke.
I don't know how many times I have heard someone give a contractor reference and in the same breath also say how inexpensive they where.
When just calling people back or showing up when you said you would makes you a good contractor in the homeowners eyes, something is not right. Things like that shouldn't even be an issue.
I hope I am not coming off as a DIY that dislikes contractors. I have the utmost respect for good, honest contractors, most of my family are in the biz. I just wish that more contractors would get some education on how to run a business and that licensing was required everywhere and that to get the license required some real effort and time.
Hope you guys don't mind that I hop in on this one real quick. The thread topic caught my eye. "Who will build the future"? As I see it most don't want to go in the field, due to having to actually do physical labor. Most want to sit behind the desk in an airconditioned office etc. Those that end up in construction do because it is a last resort. You then also have those that do construction because that LOVE IT! Wouldn't think of doing anything else. They are the ones that care about quality work. Then there are the ones that get into the field because they want to be a GC. They feel that a couple years working with someone then off to get their GC license and they can start their own business. These are the ones that scare me the most. I see people like my husband that care so much about the end product. The quality of the job. Yet it is hard to find help that takes that much interest in the quality of the job. I would say the first place to start is to look at our schools. Make them feel that their is a career in construction. Show them the possibilites that are there. Other than that pray that you find someone that will care. Usually those type have their own construction business. Tamara
I have enjoyed all the posts on this thread. But. We seem to be very concerned about what we can do as an industry to attract the builders of the future. I don't know about anyone else, but I have a hard enough time figuring out what to do myself, much less a whole industry. I think we need to concentrate more on what we control, our own work and our success in business. If we do high quality work and are financially successful, we set an example that young people will want to emulate. I am not saying that this is easy but unlike trying to change all possible clients or all possible competitors, it is possible. Not only is it possible but we can all think of a half dozen things that will move us in the right direction and working on any of those ideas is a lot more satisfying than issuing the same tired complaints.
Schellling, the I'm having a hard enough time figuring
out what to do myself, much less a whole industry thought was what hit
my head and got me going on all of this. I don't know or even believe that anything
I do can change this industry as a whole but if something different doesn't
happen for me right now I could leave it all behind. I just want change.
I think the building and remodeling industry as it is sux and I want to change
my little world around me. I think doing things that way I have (we have) been
doing it for so long is just plain stupid and counterproductive. If I had a
real gun by this point in my life and career I would have shot my self in the
foot some many time that I'd be hoping around on the stumps of my thighs. I
just think there has to be a better way.
I'm smart enough to realize that the time to deal with the employee recruitment
and retention issue is right now and not when it becomes an impossible crisis.
As I inferred earlier any company that figures out a solution to the problem
and impending crisis will dominate and succeed in the early parts of this new
century. I can be part of the problem or a possible solution.
I'm metaphorically getting set to reboot my company and I'm working on replacing
the system software (metaphorically again) so it doesn't crash anymore and I
just want to make sure I have the right system software in place this time rather
than building on a crappy buggy system.
I got a lot more questioning and thinking in areas other that recruitment and
retention that I am sure I will ask about soon enough. Hopefully what I learn
and discover will be worthwhile for a young person to follow and emulate. I not
trying to change the universe( like some people I know) just my planet.
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
"Hopefully what I learn and discover will be worthwhile for a young person to follow and emulate. I not trying to change the universe( like some people I know) just my planet. "
Jerrald- Good luck. I think you are on the right track for yourself. I guess I just have a more optimistic view. I have work that I like, a chance to earn a decent living, nice folks to work for and an opportunity to pass on a little of what I've learned to the next generation. Yeah, there are plenty of bumps but whoever said life was easy or that we make things easy for ourselves or others.
---Walking around on my stumps----Schelling
Don't mind your jumping in at all Tamara. I appreciate all the view points
I can get on this subject.
"As I see it most don't want to go in the field,
due to having to actually do physical labor". That might be true
with a lot of kids today however there is a large segment of people who unless
they see a physical tangible result of their actions they feel somewhat unfulfilled.
Those people end up as artist, sculptors or architects, builders, and remodelers.
Ya get what I mean? One of the problems facing this emerging Knowledge Based
economy and society is that some people hit their mid thirties or forties and
feel strangely unfulfilled because they haven;'t done anything in their live
from their internal psychological point of view.
As a kid my parents consciously encouraged me towards a "paper" career
not a "hands-on" one. I think they realized a while back now what
a tragic mess that would have been had I gone that way. I think it's dangerously
wrong for parents today to categorically and single-mindedly encourage their
children towards "paper" careers and they are certainly a lot more
adamant about it today than they were when I was a kid.
Unfortunately as I've sort of said above as far as building and remodeling
are concerned we haven't given parents any kind of constructive alternatives
for them to encourage their kid towards.
Those that end up in construction do because it is a
last resort. Nah I'm not sure I agree with that. I think the majority
of the people in the business are in it because they love "making stuff".
Unfortunatly for the business end "loving building and making things"
does not a necessarily translate in to or lead to building good businesses.
For years now I have personally been saying "people pay all this money
do stuff that I would probably do for free". Unfortunately most of us do
exactly that we do it for free or nearly so just because we love it. I thought
the Sit
at the desk or make sawdust was an interesting discussion to read just for
the insights it provide on that.
Then there are the ones that get into the field because
they want to be a GC. They feel that a couple years working with someone then
off to get their GC license and they can start their own business. These are
the ones that scare me the most. Me too. A lot of the time in those kinds
of cases it about power and control issues and power and they are the ones who
often don't give a crap about career advancement and employee welfare.
Yet it is hard to find help that takes that much interest in the quality of
the job. Well yeah nothing is easy but even when we find them we do a poor job
of keeping 'em. I worked for others for something like eleven years and none
of my employters ever showed me that they were interested in developing and
growing my own talents and interests so I left to do it for myself.
Good point all, Thanks Tamara.
PS- "Usually those type have their own construction business." Hey
here's and idea. What about using an acquisition strategy to recruit talent.
In other words wrap up or fold in to a larger company a bunch of other small
independent contractors? A Cisco type approach.
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
<? L?n, the questions you've brought and asked regarding both your impression
and what you think consumers look for form our industry are all very interesting
and worthy subjects for debate but they are sort of getting off the subject
and reasons somewhat for which I started this topic. In my original post was
trying to be Socratic in trying to open discussion about what we can actually
do to attract new blood in to our industry and just how and where that new blood
might be coming from. That' what I really want to know and am looking for advice
and ideas oX.
Your basically asserting that we can't offer the "new blood" anything
enticing because it's impossible to make any kind of decent money in this industry
because every consumer in your view shops is shopping only for the low price.
No offense but I think that's an incredibly narrow-minded view of what's going
on.
Sure if you meet your friends in the Sam's Club warehouse parking lot and talk
about contractors the basis of that talk is going to be about "how
inexpensive they were".
But I know a breakfast cafe shop in my hometown where the coffee cost a buck
more per cup than it does in Starbucks and the place is always crowded. I am
sure the the people in they are not talking about their contractors in terms
of "how inexpensive they were". The positive
attributes that they talk about are "how clean the project was", "how
smoothly it went" and "how great this that or the other thing looks"
and when they talk negatively the are talking about the same things too. Admittedly
I'm in Westchester County NY and this is a center of affluence in this country
but I'm presenting that just to say to you that your view is not comprehensive.
I've got a lot of information from the Harvard University's Joint Center for
Housing Studies as part of the Remodeling Futures Program. One thing it says
that I think is interesting and I extrapolate an assumption from:
My assumption: Of the people I just mentioned I thin the Westchester Coffee
Cafe fits in that top 10 percent while the Sam's Club crowd more closely resembles
the other end of the spectrum.
Also I just read in the latest issue of Roofing Contractor (yeah, I read Roofing
Contractor even though I don't do roofs) a good article called Seven
Offbeat Marketing Ideas by Jim Olsztynski one of the the ides he had was
(and I quote):
When you say "but how many (insert your favorite
trade) have a branded name that the majority of homeowners in the area they
work in would know." There is a slight caveat to branding techniques
that applies here. Brand image doesn't have to be nationally recognized or even
regionally. The contractor only has to be recognized as a Brand in the eyes
of the individual consumer he or she is addressing at that particular moment.
There is a brand new Handyman service that has popped up here recently ( boy
I think that's a market segment that is getting crowded fast). They put storefront
offices in two villages, they consistently advertise in the local media, and
they put out a solid direct mail campaign and in spite of being a "fresh-out-of-the-oven"
new business in the towns that they have targeted they probably have the predominant
Brand image among handyman services (for anyone interested too their advertised
basic rate is $75 per hour).
"I definitly agree that people will go after the
jobs that give the best all around oportunity for advancement, benefits, enviroment,
salary etc.... It's really is to bad that it is the way it is. I wish it wasn't."
-- Huh? Why? That's the way it should be everywhere. Unfortunately it
isn't. Especially in our industry. I went in to business for myself exactly
because none of those needs were being addressed for me especially career
advancement .
"I hope I am not coming off as a DIY that dislikes
contractors". Nah don't worry about that. I do feel your view of
the business is narrow however but it illustrates some of the problems and stereotypes
that we face and have to deal with. I appreciate you point of view even though
I strongly disagree with it.
I just wish that more contractors would get some education
on how to run a business. That however is one of the core problems of
this industry, the acute lack of business knowledge and professional management
techniques by a such large segment of our trade.
As part of all this reading and research I've been doing regarding "who
will build the future", recruiting and employee retention one of the concepts
I came across is Developing an Employment Brand or Making Your Business
an Employer of Choice. Given that acute lack of business knowledge and professional
management it no wonder that we are having problems attracting new blood. Why
would any kid want to go to work for most of the contractors he sees out there.
So 27Sean what do you think we should be doing differently. What would have
attracted you to going in to the building and remodeling industry rather than
the engineering alternative you chose?
"Do not go where the path may lead, go
instead where there is no path and
leave a trail."-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I definitly agree that people will go after the jobs that give the best all around oportunity for advancement,
benefits, enviroment, salary etc.... It's really is to bad that it is the way it is. I wish it wasn't." -- Huh? Why? That's
the way it should be everywhere. Unfortunately it isn't. Especially in our industry. I went in to business for myself
exactly because none of those needs were being addressed for me especially career advancement ."
Jerald, it is actually an incomplete thought on my part, I caught the error after I posted it and didn't correct it. What I forgot to say is that since people care about those things, benefits, salary, advancement etc.. and that most construction companies can not offer those benefits that it is too bad that is the way it is.
"I hope I am not coming off as a DIY that dislikes contractors". Nah don't worry about that. I do feel your view of
the business is narrow however but it illustrates some of the problems and stereotypes that we face and have to
deal with. I appreciate you point of view even though I strongly disagree with it. "
I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. My view point may be narrow, actually I am sure that I am concentrating on just one aspect of the construction industry. It is very refreshing to hear a contractor talk about what to do to make the construction industry a better place to work.
I just think that the change has to come either from the top down (the contractor/builder) or from the top up (the homeowner). It doesn't seem like contractors are willing to pay better salary, benefits, career advancement etc.. and the general homeowner doesn't demand the best quality while be willing to pay top dollar to get it.
Most companies simply just charge more so they can attract the best labor by offering good pay and benefits and turn out a product that sells giving them the profit they want. Either the public buys that product or not. There is no reason why contractors just couldn't all raise there prices, the people will pay, they won't have much choice. The only thing preventing this from happening is there are a lot of contractors who like to lower there prices to the point of going out of business. I think it just comes down to education. If the contractor new that he was losing money on every deal he wouldn't continue to do it.
I just can't think of another industry where business owners run there business into the ground as much as the building industry does. It really is to bad.
I got a litle lost somewhere in this thread, so exscuse me if this looks out of 'tune'.
I dont have any experience of carpentry in other countries, but here the term 'carpenter' has been almost totally eclipsed by 'builder'. It is often pronounced 'bildah', like somehow bildah's are way down on the food chain.
It gets my back up a bit, so I correct them and say that i am a carpenter. It says so on the certificate i got on completion of my 4 year apprenticeship. It was also what i wanted to be. I sure as hell didnt sign on to be a 'bildah'.
The skills required now are minute compared to what they once were. ( not long ago either ) As stated above, carpenters pretty much assemble the bits. all the subs do what was once carpenter domain. I am totally in favour of carpenters being able to do ALL aspects of house construction. I frequently give silent thanks to the old guy I learned from that I am able to do what i can. At the very least I had a good grounding that I could add to. For a young person now, who really wants to work like a dog doing monotonous work, for low pay? when they can make more money in a warm office?
We have 'commercial carpenters'. A joke really as they never get to see wood. All day they make formwork, tie steel and pour concrete. The pay is awful, the work is worse. They cant do 'real' carpentry cos they dont know how. I rapidly got to the point where I flatly refused to do it. Glorified labourers.
However, renovation work makes a fella think. a good job looks like a good job. even the dimmest customer can see that it went well. the sad thing is, that kind of work is limited, there is lots of competition for it.
Unfortunately there always seems to be some moron who will do the job on the cheap and get it. nobody is making a living. You wont see a lawyer charging 20 bucks an hour. Lots charge 300 and get it. It is because you EXPECT to pay lots. You might complain but you pay it.
Would you trust the advice of a 20 dollar lawyer?
I want to know when will the day arrive where carpentry is seen as a valuable SKILL, one that gets paid accordingly.
Wood Hoon
IMHO
- Society pays for what it values. Society doesn't value carpenters much.
- Way too many craftsmen who can't run businsses become contractors.
- On small, low-cost jobs, contractors can't afford to pay help well, nor give benefits
- Why should management be paid better than the guy walking walls 50' up? They are both skills... some are better at one than the other. Never understood it.
- Unions used to be a way for people to learn off the job in a structured way. Vo-Tech schools now do this, but it seems rarely concurrent with the job.
- Unions offer benefits, not the company.
- Very few carpenters view themselves as professionals. It's unfortunate. Expand, grow, read, as we are doing here.
- Perhaps we will begin to act more professional when we are paid like professionals. Perhaps we will be paid like professionals when we act more like them. Something to ponder.
- Gotta go, lightning storm!