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A potential client handed me prints for a 4 bathroom 4000sf new home. It appears that the entire wastewater system needs to pumped (the site sits in a depression with the road bed raised about 4 feet from site grade). The Water/Sewer authority told them that they need a pump to hit the sewer main. My plumber (lots of experience – 30 yrs. in the business, used him several times before) tells me that this is an expensive proposition. My questions for all of you are:
1. I’ve used small ejector pumps before (2″ outlet). Is this a bigger pump/outlet? What size basin would this thing take?
2. Where would it go? Do I need a pit in the front yard, or does this stay in the basement? (This is in Pennsylvania)
3. Any experience with reliability? It’ll be Christmas eve, 40 guests, you know the drill.
Let me know. I’ve suggested perhaps raising the house out of the ground, but don’t know if that is an option yet. I’m examining what is needed if I must go this route. Thanks for your help.
Nathan
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On the house I recently built, we had to put a pit in the basement. But all the toilets on the first floor were high enough that they would gravity drain. So that house has some of both. Maybe this would work in your situation? The less stuff that goes into the pit, the less stuff will back up on your basement floor when the pump quits.
All pumps will fail eventually, and should be avoided if possible. Gravity doesn't have power outages.
Your plumber is the best one to ask about location and basin size.
*That was the same answer that he gave me as an option, but the first floor rim is (theoretically) beneath the sewer line. My plumber thinks that there would have to be a pit in the yard because otherwise, we may be too far away for the pump to "eject" properly. If indeed we have to go with the front yard, then there is the problem of the basin freezing in the winter, and that brings a whole host of other problems.
*Try and find company in your area that specialized in these and has service contracts. Where I live was on gravity sewers installed in 1928, but many of them had colapsed and houses had been built over the sewer lines and it was orginally for summer cabins and very overloaded.So they replaced the systems with grinder pumps going to a force main in the road. They are in a tank in the yard. I am guessing about 30" in diameter so there is not much exposed. And the tank has some room to hold waste for a day or so if there is a problem.We have had the system for 15 years and I have not had any failures. But the pumps have been replaced twice. The first one was to upgrade brands. The replacement came with a service contract and they are now replacing pulling them out one by one replacing a seal on them and then use that pump at the next location.The city has a pump and tank on a truck if they need to clear a tank and the service company has spares and special tools like A frames for pulling the pumps.
*Bill,Where was this located? What is the frost depth? I need to be about 4 feet underground so nothing freezes. That is one of the biggest concerns we have. A pit in the yard, large enough for a man to work in, all the while underground. This becomes a more expensive proposition all the time. My plumber a I tried to find someone else, but we can't seem to. The suppliers don't even have much info or input on this question. by the way, what is the make/manuf. and cost of the system you have, if you don't mind?Nathan
*NathanI am in Kansas City area. I think that our frost depth is 3ft, but I know the designer of my house spec'd 4ft footers.I have seen the tanks before they install them and I think they are about 8 - 10 ft long (deep). After they are setup there is no reason to get into the tank. All of the electrical connections are brought to the top of the tank in a loop and a cable to lift out the pump. The pump slides on a beveled slide with the outlet in it. They have a long handle with a t at the bottom. Then put that down and shutoff the outflow valve, unplug the electrical cable and then grabe the lift cable and pull it out.I don't have any idea of the cost. The whole city did this at one time for about 350 homes. And in our case there was a lot of rock breaking. Not only for putting in my tank, but for putting the new main in the street.A friend of mine also has one. He is in a private developement of about a dozen homes. I will ask him if he know the prices.I don't know of any names other than Meyers is one of the brands of the pumps. But I have no idea of the brand name of the tanks.Look in the phone book under Sewage Treatment Equipment. I know that the service company that we use is listed in that catagory.Bill
*Thanks Bill. It's my understanding that I have to provide this, not the city. I looked under everything relevant in the Yellow pages, and haven't found anything promising yet. I got a material only price for the pump & basin of $4400.00. That seemed high to me, but I really don't know. Thanks for your help.Nathan
*Nathan, If I were you, I would see if the local authorities would allow you to install a 1200 gallon septic tank with an outlet filter. Drain all the sewage from the house into this tank as you would in a normal home that uses a septic system. Then drain the effluent through a drop in filter at the outlet of the tank into a solid concrete sump. Install your pump in the sump. This is not any cheaper but it is light years less troublesome. You will be pumping just liquid instead of all the sewage. Your pumps will last much longer and you will have much, much less trouble with the pump. If you have a pump break down, you just call a septic pumper to pump out both tanks and you should have several days to repair the pump before the system fills up again.
*I have had to install sewage pumps in a few homes that I built in the last couple of years, although these all pumped out to a modified drain field.These systems all had 1500 -2000 gal septic tanks that emptied into a 500 gal pump tank that pumped to the field. Depending on the design of the field, the outlet pipe was either 2" or 1 1/2".I would assume that yours would just have a pump tank with a 2" discharge.The crap is not going to freeze, don't worry about the frost depth. They normally hold the tank as close to the surface as possible.$4400 sounds about right. The system that is going into a house this spring is bid at $12,500 for a 1500 gal tank, 500 gal pump tank, and 500 sq ft of field and I still have to provide electrical.Terry
*i (the site sits in a depression with the road bed raised about 4 feet from site grade).20 minutes after the thing is finished, you'll get the 200 year rain/flood....
*My nephew dug a hole to build his walk out basement in, by comparision your client is not too stupid. But building in a depression is just stupid.$5000 for sewage disposal is insignificant on a 4000sqft house.Since you failed to inform the client about the problems of building in a depression and are unable to get a sewage pump in, perhaps your client should walk away from you.
*George,I fail to understand what I perceive to be your uniformed, accusing attitude. I informed no one of anything. I was handed prints, shown a site, and left to work out the details. Part of that process is to collect all of the information possible, and the previous 9 posts were assisting me in that effort. I never posted that I couldn't manage the install, or that the site is at the absolute bottom of a total depression. You wouldn't know that, though you could have asked. Thanks for your effort in education, of which I am apparently lacking.Nathan
*The systems that our plumber has installed are as Terry describes. They used two pumps which alternate and serve as there own backups. In addition there is an light alarm if there is a malfunction. The frost level is no problem though we had plenty of problems setting the tank and running the pipe under an adjacent stream when the temp was -15F and windy. An ice chunk crushed the pipe and we had to go back the next week to redo a short section of the line, in warmer weather.
*Nathan ---You had a plumber with 30 years experience that you trust on site. You didn't like his answer, so you came here.Your plumber told you you were an a** and it was going to cost you lots of money.Nothing people here say will change that.
*George,Incorrect once again. My plumber said no such thing. All of my subs and I work together to find cost effective solutions for the problems our customers face, and in this instance, may face long term. i didn't come here for a different opinion, only the experiences that others have had in similar circumstances. As you correctly pointed out in your last installment of wisdom, the price is irrelevant on the total job-cost. I want to be as certain as possible that the long term risks and service commitment of such a solution balances with the cost of installation & upkeep. I ask for building advice, no other. While you can feel free to voice an opinion, I would appreciate a kinder hand toward those of us in this business, I'm sure that we would try to respect yours.Nathan
*make sure the pump is a type used locally so repair parts are available quick and cheaper.
*NathanI saw my friend today. He could not remember the price, but was thinking $6k in 1986.But he said that he did not have a service constract and the only repairs since them was to replace the float switches last year.But he said that one of his neighbor had the mounting brackets on his unit corrode.BillPS, I have not idea what George's problem is. All I see is that you are asking about what others people experiences have been with this kind of system and the cost. And since this is not commonly used on the "typical home" it would make sense to do the extra research.
*Nathan,I see you have mentioned the possibility of raising the building as a solution to your sewage problem. Any rules or monetary challenges preventing a combination of solutions, such as starting with your basement floor at approximately current grade level and then adding fill around the site to enclose the sewage pipe which would exit the building near the top of the basement wall? That's less fill than bringing the entire site up and virtually no excavation for a standard basement. How high above the sewer main would that be? Outflow from the house could then start as much as 3' above road grade. Savings from no pump, no tank, no periodic maintainance and no extensive basement excavation could offset the cost of fill and grading.
*Good post Ralph.
*Ralph, The combination that you are talking about has some other benefits that I am trying to impress on the customer for more reasons than just the sewage. To start with, though, the water/sewer authority has yet to determine the exact depth of the main. I don't blame them, roads are resurfaced, etc. that change the depth of the pipe continually. They just did a main tap for me several months for sprinkler service at another job, and they figured the main was six feet under the road. it wound up being eleven feet down. At this point, no one knows where the main is.The current basement depth on the print is 10 feet. That's a big hole to dig (app. 2100 sf that deep) and if the building sits that deep in relation to the road, the someone standing on the road can almost look into the second floor windows.As you can see, there are some decent arguments for raising the house, regardless of the pump issue. My excavator, surprisingly, knows about these pumps, and had enough info that the plumber and I feel comfortable with the mechanics of the situation. We all feel that that the potential maintenance is still an issue, though. The info that I'm getting here is helpful, and encouraging that the pumps aren't failing and backing up with any regularity.Nathan
*Nathan, We unknowingly bought a house with a sewage ejection pump system buried in the yard due to a high main and I have to say that 30 years from now the owners will be cursing the architect, you, and the plumber for not having the foresight to plan the house in relation to the site it is going on. Over the lifetime of the house, that pump's existence will be forgotten as it is buried under the grass, and the owner sells the house as being hooked up to city sewer. When it dies, it will back sewage up into the house. Maintenance is expensive (ours cost $3000 to replace). If the owners are honest about its existence, it lowers the resale value of the home. Convince your owners that Ralph's suggestion is better.
*My initial reaction to the pump situation was one of terror. When it comes to sewage, that pump could fail one in 30 years, and that one time will be the defining moment in our relationship. Like I posted earlier, I still don't know if there is an option to the pump, but I'm looking for ways to eliminate it from the plan.The client (or potential client) bought the land, about an acre, some time ago. Then they had the prints drawn, and the two have to go together as best they can. It's a nice property, and a nice house, but I feel the architect should have been counseling them along these lines the whole time. They looked at me in absolute amazement when I voiced concern about the sewage pump. In any case, if they use me for the construction, I'll make it work. My plumber and I don't want them to have a lifetime of maintenance (again, with sewage maintenance once every ten years may seem to be a lifetime to them). Thanks, Amy for the input. i appreciate it.Nathan Meredith
*question? I dont know much about this but- and I know this is a stupid question but here it goes.for 6 grand I had an at grade septic system put in for my house. how big is the lot? would there be room for a drain field or is there a problem where if there is city sewer you have to use it? would you have to still pay for city septic? questions questions questions please enlighten me ( dont be too hard on me)trying to think outside the box(sorry)sam
*I don't think that the lot is big enough for that system (though I'm not sure). As for the water, as long as you are on the city water, then you pay sewage based on your water consumption. Also, I think that given an option, the client would opt for the risk of a pump, rather than septic. I'll ask my plumber about it though. There were some other good posts about installing a septic tank and then pumping the liquid only out. I think that is a good hybrid, as it allows for no solids to jam the pump, and if the pump goes, there's somewhere for the waste to be "held" until it is fixed.Nathan
*I've done a couple of these ejector pumps. Very simple. Set a 30" X 60" pump basin OUTSIDE the house. That way there is no potential for backups IN the house. Also make sure that a high water alarm is installed in the basin. Next choose your pump. Approx. $1200 for a grinder pump or $250 for a 2" solids handling pump. Let the customer decide and also make sure pumps are correctly sized for pumping the distance. Do not cover the lid of the basin. If it's visible, it won't be forgotten. Should be able to do it with about $1000-2000 in materials (depending on pump). Make sure that all electrical connections are in a watertight box.Have fun & rest easy,John
*Nathan, do you not have sewer-manhole covers in the street? Here, try this one, 1st- purchase a few bags of small marshmellows,2nd - head on down to the water/sanitary office, or better yet, their yard, and find the man or woman who knows their job,take them along with you and find those manhole covers , measure the invert(s). 3rd-Thank them, and then give them the marshmellow as a gift.If no sewer manhole covers, hmmmm, I suppose my very next step , verify the funding w/owner's, call Blue Stake, check on street cut permit, then find the sewer line with your favorite backhoe operator. With that knowledge in hand, it then takes the thinking out of that part of the equation.Best of luck Nathan, J.J.