Story #1 -Wife and I went in to a Ford dealership about 5 years ago – wife was buying a car for herself with her own money.
We sat down in salesman’s office – I went to get a coke. Wife asked salesman a question – he said “wait til your husband gets back” and would not talk to her.
Story #2 – Last week a Single 55 ish neighbor lady nexy door bought a new big AC?Heat pump ($5000) for her house. One company asked her “will her husband be there to talk to the salesman? (she dropped them off the list)
Who do you “Sell” to?
and how do you figure out which one is the “decision maker”
Replies
My current job, a reroof...the Mrs. is the boss, Mr. is just not interested enough and works too much to devote much input, He also installed the failed first roof...lol.
A large previous job it was definatly the Mr. He was a retired CEO from BellSouth/Cingular and always had to try to tell me what to do when, and how...until I politly explained to him why I was finishing what 3 other builders could not do under his watchful eye.
The best was a preachers remodel, after the DW had us remove and replace the same wall about 3 times, and the subsequent change orders that were 100.00 ea. He came home for lunch, when I told him of our "little problem" with the Mrs. inability to stick with the plan, and his expense of the changes , his reply was
" She has 1/2 of the money, and all of the pu$$y, do what ever she wants"
I snorted gatorade.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
" She has 1/2 of the money, and all of the pu$$y, do what ever she wants"
a wise man in my opinion!!!!!!!!
My wife had that problem--with a car salesman and with a window salesman who wouldn't talk to her to the "man of the house" came home. At that time she wasn't married. Guess these people aren't hungry or not smart enough to survive.
My first paid drafting job, my drafting teacher gave me the name of a couple. I called and got the husband and he acted surprised, said, no, they had no plans to build a new house. Told my teacher and he says, call the wife (I think he gave me her work number); so I called and she says, "Oh, yes, I've been waiting and wondering when you'd call!"
The whole job was like that. Wife wanted a loft, husband wanted a low, rambling ranch-style. Wife wanted hole in patio roof so a tree could grow through, husband hated the idea. I remember I'd explain some concept in great detail while the hubby stared blankly into space. When I finished he'd sort of come back and say, "Hey, why don't we..." and then he'd say exactly what I'd just said. "Good idea," I'd say, "Why don't we do that." I remeber wife hated trusses--"You mean those triangles you see big piles of flopping around on those big trucks? Don't want them--they look flimsy." Next time I visit, she says, "The builder showed us something that will save us lots of money; it's called a 'truss'." Do, tell. I guess I should have emphasized the money savings (I did mention it, but apparently not with enough emphasis)! ANyway, the house has been up for 30 some years now.
Interesting topic.
When I write a bid/contract I try to identify whether the husband or wife is the driving force behind the job. Then I ask if it will be OK if I make the paperwork out to that individual. My thinking is that I really want a single point of contact, and don't want to get in the middle of any he said - she said miscommunications. Also, in the county where I live, tax records are on the web, so I can easily look up who is the actual owner of the property, although, more often than not, both husband and wife are listed. If only one is listed as the owner, I make the paperwork out to that person.
Really though, I wonder if legally it is better to have 2 signatures on a contract? Does that make more people liable for payment, etc?
Matt
I think that it is common in most states when property is jointly owned that all parties need to sign for any contract that would affect the value of the property and/or include an indebtedness. And a construction contract does allow for liens to be placed on the property.
It might also be wise, through to also include an item selecting who would be responsible for day to day decision making on the project (change orders, material selections).
When my mother sold her house my step-father was literally on his death bed. My sister had power of attorny for both. My mother had owned the house for 45 years, and my step father has lived there maybe 25. It was only in her name, but they jointly paid for all expenses include new roof and AC.
Although it was not required the attorny put my step-fathers name on the deed as a seller just to make sure that there would not be any questions of ownership rights. He also did a second one with his name inclase he died before closing.
I'm interested to know how you folks adapt your selling techniques in this regard to gay and lesbian couples."Our country is not the only thing to which we owe our allegiance. It is also owed to justice and to humanity. Patriotism consists not in waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous as well as strong." ~James Bryce
Great question. People are people. G&L couples come in all combinations of one or other or both or neither make all the decisions (or think they do), just like hetero couples. And factors that determine decision-making comfort, like experience and knowledge, vary just the same.
There's a huge literature in Psychology about factors that determine how decisions are made with and without hesitation and with or without subsequent anxiety and second-guessing. Most decisions in a major reno or build fall into the 'double-approach-avoidance' type. Two competing options each have large and lasting potential benefits worth trying for. Each option comes with huge and lasting costs and consequences worth avoiding. And the typical homeowner may have little confidence in their own ability to correctly estimate the relative chances of a good or bad outcome of each choice. Plus they'll have varying levels of trust in the advice they are given.
Research shows this is precisely the scenario which leads to longest time-to-decision delays, and greatest anxiety around the decision. Many of you here have been dealing very effectively with this, from instinct and experience, with no benefit from the fact that some psychobabbler put nice titles on it. ;-)
One couple I know (hetero this time) are doing a massive reno and interviewed several general contractors and architects. The best few and the final winners showed they had a lot of experience working with couples through the decision-making timelines. They acknowledged how painful this was going to be from time to time, validated how this would sometimes cause stress and minor arguments and they tried to get the couple to pre-guess dispute-resolution strategies. For example, does one spouse hold trump in which phases (e.g., foody husband gets the kitchen but cares little about....) and directed them to sub-trades and suppliers, info sources, and previous clients to get additional input where the couple of was most undecided or conflicted.
Construction pros also vary in how comfortable they are doing verbal therapy with anxious clients, particularly with the opposite sex - and it is perfectly fair to acknowledge that too. Maybe the preacher's wife would have changed her mind fewer times if someone (sure wasn't hubby) had given her the time to discuss and debate different configurations in advance. Maybe that chatty carpenter already on the crew could have spent the time in advance and avoided the changes.
Either way the Preacher's wife story made for a funny punchline and was well-shared in this forum.
When I worked with the framing carpenter, the HO's (wow, never thought about how those initials may seem to be saying something other than "Home Owners") would often come up to me and ask me stuff like, "Do you think we could put a window in this wall, so I can watch my kids while they're playing in the yard?" or, "I thought the plan called for a room over the garage." I'd tell them I'd check with the boss or the designer and then I'd always report back what I found out. I figured that for some reason I was more approachable than the honchos.
On one job I was walking a wall a couple stories above the first floor and the HO said, "Man, I'd be scared to do that!" I said, "I'm scared to do it too, but it's part of what I get paid to do."
WHY I WOULD NEVER..................No not really just thought I would go for the typical midwestern thing. I try to figure out who is who. Tough sometimes but frankly most gay couples I have dealt with are pleased to have find someone who isn't turned off by their situation and is willing to deal with them fairly. DanT
I work for an architect/builder who is a magnet for gay women. Over the past 9 years, he's done 6 houses for lesbian couples. Now that you've made me think about it, we ended up treating all but one (who would have been evil, no matter what her sexual persuasion<G>) as equal partners in their housebuilding venture. You just have have to switch master bedroom to owner's bedroom<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Well, with the gay men, it's really hard to admire the more obvious signs of the basis for our taxonomical class classification; peripherally or overtly.
And with the lesbians, it's much harder to fanaticize about a client jumping our buffed up bones as in some of the more imaginative literary genres.
"It is as hard for the good to suspect evil, as it is for the bad to suspect good."
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator, writer (106-43 BCE)
Theodora, I dealt quite a bit with gay and lesbian couples, and had good sales success with them. I really didn't modify my approach much, people by and large want the same things, regardless of sexual preference...at least that's my take.
Oddly enough, the company I worked for seemed to attract an inordinate number of them. We never judged...(would have been stupid from a sales perspective), and consequently I think we got many referrals from within that community. I occasionally overheard our competition dissing gays (reflecting personal beliefs), and thought it kind of shortsighted to soapbox on something like this. The money spends the same. PJ
Whatever you can do or dream you can,
Begin it
Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Goethe
I too have worked in areas of more than average population of G/L couples. And I love working for anyone who has a handle on the ideas they want, and are not afraid to say it.
IMO, some of my best customers were G/L and what a great attitude. I wish straight folks had such a joie de vie..
I'll never forget the one pair of guys, in NC, the one guy was a hairdresser and he insisted on "doing" both the DW and I..HAIR that is..best haircut I ever had. His partner was a conniseur of fine alcohol..anykind, man we got snokered..lol
I built them an island w/ granite top, a deck, a r&r of the exterior doors, a walkin shower ( for 10, big parties, I guess), and odds an ends..got no less than 15 referrals from those guys.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
i have worked for all kinds of people and my bank account don't seem to care if they are black white yellow purple gay or grumpy
male or female- so what
everybody dreams
people stop dreaming of something better- we are out of business
screw traditional roles- somebody leads somebody follows
i drive the bus where they tell me to go
you got it.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
I have always enjoyed working for gay and lesbian people. Seems like they have lots of money, good taste, high standards and willing to pay for quality work and with strong social networks. What more could you ask for in a customer?
I was just thinking about a job I did for a gay man 15 or so years ago. I was repairing some holes in a plaster wall. He was in the next room on the phone telling a friend about the work he was having done and about the carpenter (we had been talking and joking a lot). So he tells his friend, "And now he's in my bedroom filling a hole." Gales of giggles. I laughed too but I had to tell him to try to keep his mind out of the gutter.
Ron
>>i drive the bus where they tell me to go
Just don't stop to pick up Thelma and Louise!
"It is as hard for the good to suspect evil, as it is for the bad to suspect good."
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator, writer (106-43 BCE)
Out of that list, I try to avoid Grumpy ( and his six brothers).. ........
One company asked her "will her husband be there to talk to the salesman? Your point is valid, but in this case the appopintment setter was trying to verify that both parties would be home so a decision could be made and the contract signed.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
All the info I have read and was also told this in a sale seminar that 85% of home remodeling is dictated by the woman of the house. The old man may hold the check book but he is going to write the check that she wants written when it comes to the home. So I sell to the woman, sometime acting like I am talking to the man. DanT
Dant, I think you nailed something here. Never sold houses to be built or remodeling, but in my previous job selling boats and motorhomes, it was frequently the kiss of death to not address the woman if both were present. I would seldom ask about her ability to make a decision without her husband should she show up alone. If she was shopping by herself, that told me she carried some weight in the decision. I conversed directly with her and showed respect and concern about her needs.
The key is trust, I'd shoot for the trust of the DW even though the technical details are what interested me, and most often the husband. Statisticly, there is much to suggest that women want to like and trust who they're dealing with while the guys want the nuts and bolts of the product. I found little to loose and much to gain by this assuming that this was going to be the case in the majority of presentations. I even had men tell me after the sale that part of the reason for them buying was because DW was comfortable and confident with me.
No trying to toot my horn, but I imagine that this hold true in almost anything that a couple is purchasing. Sell yourself to the woman but save the tech details for the man. Win her over and better than half the battle is won. Not that everyone responds the same and no formula is pat, and adjusting to the given situation is good, but a lack of genuine-ness is easy for most women to spot.
Many women put as much weight in the emotional element as the any other factor, men are frequently oblivious to it. There are obviously exceptions and I don't mean to sound sexist or condescending...or pidgen-hole people. But I would never minimize the influence of the DW... even though she might seem demure and all that.
And a couple of non-PC funnies:
PJ
Whatever you can do or dream you can,
Begin it
Boldness has genius, power and magic in it. Goethe
Edited 7/25/2004 3:07 pm ET by Peter J
when i make my initial contact i always ask who they want listed on the Proposal, and how the property is owned.. then i want the same signatures on it..
also i pay close attention as to how the decisions are made .. i always try to include both parties in the conversation.... you never know if you are dealing with a passive / aggressive who is lying in waitMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
LOL, When one of them is a pasive/aggressive, you have three people to satisfy!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I sell to the woman but never exclude the man. As a furniture maker I generally deal with the woman and the man is more of the technical sort so I aim the nutz and boltz at him, the appearance at her. Women feather the nest and with only two exceptions in my life as a furniture maker the design is the woman's domain and she drives the purchase.
Gay and lesbian...I've worked with gay designers but never gay clients. Most designers are professional enough that gender preference does not play a role in my discussions with them. Frankly, it's never come up.
Without women I'd be throwing checkered table cloths over milk crates and selling them as coffee tables.
Lee
That might be changing. There's quite a trend toward more (straight) men paying a lot of attention to design (as well as more technically astute women doing DIY and expecting not to be talked down to by technical pros). Do a quick google search on the term metrosexual and you might find a whole new clientelle.
metrosexual (met.roh.SEK.shoo.ul) n. An urban male with a strong aesthetic sense who spends a great deal of time and money on his appearance and lifestyle.—metrosexuality n.
From http://www.spyword.com
"Metrosexual", hah, hah, ha...we need labels to identify aesthetically aware men? Nah, there have always been males with a keen sense of design and aesthetics (I'm a fine example). The label might make it more popular among men looking for an identity but aesthetics is a study and does not come easily or quickly. I'm awaiting a renaissance when more people place greater importance upon aesthetics but some trendy term like "metrosexual" is not going to make it happen, I'd run from that label at top speed.
But, hey, if it causes someone to appreciate fine work I'm all for it.
It's the quite ones I like, introspection is more key to aesthetics than trends.
Lee
Lee, When you start plucking your eyebrows, you can be a metrosexual...LOL
This whole thing is a complicated matter of reading the couple with experience and instinct to see how they do things and react to questions posed. In the first post above, I am not surew if the car salesman was unwilling to work directly with a female, or if he was just trying to be fair enough to include both. For me, I want both parties there so I can read them , their decision making process, and whether I can work with them both, no matter what their sexual preferences. I want to know who makes the decisions, in public and behind the scenes.
With one of my customers, He wants to contrrol every thing and to appear in charge, and his wife stays away from much public contact, but when I ask many of the interior questions, he says, " Let me think about that, and I'll get back to you" That is code for "Let me ask my wife what I think."
With another couple, he is always away on business trips, so She is in charge of the majority of decisions, but since He has the checkbook, we have built a number of areas in that house twice... She builds, and he initiates change orders.
I have done a couple big jobs for couples where I never even saw the man of the house. That leaves me uncomfortable unless she has the checkbook also...but these are people in a differt class than most of us.
gay couples make no difference. Some work as equals and some have a dominante partner, either by personality or by interest. I know one hetero couple where the woman took on the decisions simply because she was interested in handcrafts and tools, etc, while he was a lawyer/cerebral type who didn't want to even think about getting his hands busy.
Almost all the gay men I have worked for were living a single lifestyle, and almost all the gay women I have worked for were coupled, so far as I know. My impression is that most of the older/more mature gay female couples worked on decisions pretty equally, while most of the youger couples were still working out a lot of control/dominance issues, making me ask specifically who owns what and who is responsible for decisions and payments, for the paperwork.
Another relationship issue that can complicate things like this is trusts and inheritances. sometimes, after a death, the house eneds some spiffing up to put on the market by the heirs. Or the survivors sometimes all inherit equally, thru a trust. When you hav three to five branches in the family tree, the proposal contract can look more like a commercial bid and satisfying everyone is hard
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, I wax.
Lee
Last City I worked in had a "Spa" dedicated soley to Metrosexual type people, offering waxing, tanning, hair removal, and other options....
barf...Renaissance RestorationsAntique & Victorian Home Restoration Serviceshttp://www.renaissancerestorations.com
metrosexual-
term used by homophobic straight men who want to be disassociated in all respects with those queer boys who call themselves male.
always striving to be politically correct in a political world."sobriety is the root cause of dementia.", rez,2004
"Geodesics have an infinite proliferation of possible branches, at the whim of subatomic indeterminism.",Jack Williamson, The Legion of Time
did your bagel catch fire in the toaster this morning?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
in those 2 stories ...
the salesmen just might have been trying to make sure all the decision makers were there for the slick sales pitch.
The first one reads like he coulda been a little slicker ....
but it gets old repeating the same info ... and it's real bad to think the proper info will get relayed correctly at home if they both can't make it.
as far as who do you sell ... you try to sell them both ...
unless one is clearly making all the decisions.
Then ... I still try to sell them both!
gay .. straight .. doesn't matter ...
both is better.
and I know sales guys that'll cancel any meeting where all the decision makers aren't there .... either they're both serious about doing this ... or that're wasting everyone's time.
story one ... I would have answered the question ...
but the full answer would have waited till you came back and were interrested in buying a car.
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry