I’m sick of being one of the worst paid subs on the job, there is absolutely no reason for us to be paid less than electricians and plumbers, heck, the guys who install closets and insulation make as much with no skills, it sucks.
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Replies
Go work for yourself or become a plumber....they make more than doctors and are as hard to get an appt with on time.
Be a plumber..lol
Namaste
a
"As long as you have certain desires about how it ought to be you can't see how it is."
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Ya, Be a plumber. Friend is at $65 an hour and getting it. Massive equipment outlay tho'.
My quality plumber charges $80./hr plus a flat $30. just to show up. No breaks either. My cheap plumber charges $65.
Not all carpenters are cheap. Maybe just you are(not you rez). People get paid for a variety of things.
Trade Skill
Timeliness
Risk (self employment)
Business Skill
Working 12-14 hrs a day -(what an employer does)
Licenses
Demand
Reputation
Can anyone add to the list?
WAHD
Edited 3/5/2003 9:25:55 AM ET by WAHD
"Working 12-14 hrs a day -(what an employer does)"
A friend GC says he encourages people to become self-employed by telling them that they only have to work half days. They inevitable ask "Really!!??!!" Then he tells them "Yup, you just pick any 12 hours of each day and get to work!"Average Joe says:
I'll wait here while YOU go wrestle the wild alligator.
The problem is two fold. Carpentry itself is a very general term. How many aspects of construction are "carpenters" actually involved in? I consider myself a carpenter first and foremost....however, once I begin to list all of the various jobs I perform on a daily basis, the question becomes how much actual carpentry alone does one do? I build cabinets on certain jobs. I install tile on a regular basis. I do roofing on a regular basis. I install drywall on every job. I could go on but, I think you catch my drift. You cant expect to be paid the same wages for custom woodworking as you do for sheetrocking. Unless you specialize in one particular area, you cant expect to bring home a big fat paycheck.
Another problem is the fact that most homeowners arent afraid to pick up a hammer. Give a proposal for a $10,000 to build an entire deck and many homeowners will scoff at it. Give a bid for $10,000 for the plumbing alone in a new bath and they wont even question you.
The best thing you can do for yourself is to make yourself irreplacable to your employer. For years I felt I was underpayed working for a contractor. I`d ask for a raise on a regular basis. Although I always received something, I never felt it was quite enough. My biggest problem was the fact that I didnt realize in truth how important I was to him. When I finally made up my mind to go out on my own, I told him.....he ended up offering me another $20,000 a year to stay. I took it as a personal insult that all of a sudden I was worth so much more. Long story short...I`m finally making what I think I deserve. It`s a lot more work, but I answer to no one but myself.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Amen, Jaybird.
I think you hit the nail on the head. Working for yourself is truly the only way you will be duly compensated for your efforts if you care about the quality of your work and strive to become better with each new project. Anyone coming into this business simply looking for a paycheck won't be worth their weight. If your focus is on quality and customer satisfaction, the money will quickly follow. I've been in business only 5 years, but only advertised for the first 6 months. My projects all come from referrals and I have only been out of work for 2 weeks in those 5 years.
Anyone who has motivation and energy can start their own company and do well. If you are weak on the management side, it may be a good idea to include someone else in your business such as a spouse to help balance the books.
God bless.
Why can't we get more? Because others will work for less. The quality of work that a hack may do is below what a skilled carpenter can produce, but if that extra quality is not worth it to the customer (either boss or homeowner) than what we are selling is of no value. Fine somebody who is interested in the added value that you can give them, then you can get an increase in compensation.
I'm seriously doubting that a plumber makes $65/hr. I believe the poster referring to plumbers getting that much is failing to take into account overhead, travel time, etc.
$65/hr. would most likely be the billing rate to the customer. Around here, thats probably toward the lower end of the scale. I know plumbing contractors billing close to $100/hr. My brother is a union plumber (bout ten years in) with an outfit a bit north of the immediate suburbs of NYC. His take home pay works out to about $35/hr. Once you factor in his benefits(medical, retirement, vacation, etc.) he`s closing in on costing his employer $60/hr. I`d bet the customer is paying upwards of $80/hr. for my brothers efforts.
If a carpenter takes home $30/hr. around my parts, he`s close to topping out. A plumber can easily charge $50/hr., cause his work requires a license.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
J.D.,
My point was that the billing rate to customers reflects not only the wage, but also overhead, profit, etc. If you compare wage to billing rate, it's apples to oranges.
Jon Blakemore
The licensed plumbers--who are not self-employed--I know are making in the neighborhood of $65 per hour (nice neighborhood). However, they are not working 40 hour weeks either.
Using the rule-of-thumb I was taught for billing, $65 x 2.5 bills at $162.50 per hour. A one hour service call for a licensed plumber runs about $200, leaving about $40 for materials. That looks like a pretty good match to me.
The RoT comes from a rather practical formula; employee wage x 1 (pay for the time) + x 1 (make a profit) and + x 0.5 (pay the government, withholding, FICA, Medicare, etc.) Now, I learned that in architecting school, as a way to sell professional skill. Carpentry "ought" to count, as a bad carpenter will cost more.
Maybe, in the case of this thread, it's the work. Even the best framer works long hours, in all kinds of weather, and works hard. I've run into the misconception that "anyone" can be a carpenter before. It's still wrong now. Coping multi-layer crown into a corner (that is never plumb nor square enough) takes skill. Framing dormer hips with two different roof pitches, also takes skill.
Jon, you said: Why can't we get more? Because others will work for less.
I don't agree. Since I sold my remodeling business to my sons over 4 years ago, I started another company just doing small projects, mostly under $5000, and a lot of them can be considered "handyman" jobs, under $1000, some as low as "service call" work.
The rates I base my prices on vary from $85 to $125 per hour. I charge a $45 fee just to drive there. My competitors are charging between $30 and $55 per hour. I've been having a hell o fa time trying to get my weekly hours down to around 24 hrs per week due to the demand.
I also know any good carpenter could run rings around me.
Sonny Lykos, It is always good for me to read your Posts, always. Jim J
With all due respect to carpenters who are knowledgeable and highly skilled I think the root of the problem is that any slob who works as a glorified laborer on a construction site and knows which end of a hammer to hold and which end of a nail goes into the wood, sometimes just barely, calls himself a carpenter. Lacking any more detailed job description and title they settle on the default setting. Carpenter.
Unfortunately this waters down the average skill level of those who call themselves carpenter. It makes it hard on those people who have been trained, or trained themselves, to a higher skill level. As an electrician I have found that a highly skilled and effective carpenter makes my job much more productive and makes the entire project flow much more smoothly. Whatever they get for there services is well worth the money spent.
You refered to yourself as a sub but the way you describe things, you are an employee. Which is it? That alone can account for what you see as a difference in pay rates. If you are a sub, you set your own rate or price or value when you bid a job. If you take what they offer and get it by the hour, you are more likely and employee.
Specialists do make more precisely because they speciallize but that can be a downfall bewcause they can run out of work in that specialty. You seem to think that insulators or closet installers have no skills. That can be true but as often it is not and they are highly skilledd at what they do. It is in perception. When i was roofing, I often ran into the preception that any dummy can lay shingles. Now, I often see HOs who think that any idiot can push a paint brush.
Both of these trades are highly skilled positipons, when done right.
And highly paid when valued as such by the purchaser, general or HO.
My point is that you need to make sure that he values you by being highly skilled, putting out high quality and quantity, and then demanding or negotiating for what you are worth. In the end - we each are the ones who set the price for our own work - by accepting what is for each - a bottom line figure. There is a price below which each of us will not go to work.
Excellence is its own reward!
" It is in perception. When i was roofing, I often ran into the preception that any dummy can lay shingles. Now, I often see HOs who think that any idiot can push a paint brush. "
Well said .
Tim Mooney
Everyone knows carpenters are paid less because they only have 9 fingers!!!!!!!!
David
Edited 3/5/2003 8:54:40 PM ET by David Dansky
Well, when I was in the trades here in Chicago (I was a union carpenter for ten years and I worked for 4 years non union in Milwaukee) it was explained to me this way:
The carpenters union in Chicago is a "blanket" type orginization; we covered everything from residential and comercial carpentry to granite cutters, terazzo finishers, accoustic and drywall installers, insulators, siders, shinglers, carpet installers, lahers, stair builders, resillient and wood floor layers, and millwrights. As a blanket organization, we had alot of power due to the sheer numbers of people and trades that were represented, but at the same time they had to come up with an average wage for all the trades that they represented. What it all came down to was this, when I left the trades several years ago, journeyman scale was almost $30 an hour not including benifits. Builders and contractors had/have a problem with paying that kind of wage to generally lesser skilled trades such as drywallers and carpet layers, but at the sametime millwrights probably should make more than a carpente makes because of the skill and training that is necessary to become a millwright. I don't mean to step on anyones toes here, but that is the general thinking I have encountered here in Chicago.
It is unsettleing that carpenters are generally some of the lowest paid trades in the construction work force considering the amount of knowlege that is needed by carpenters so the other trade's work goes smoothly (like keeping joists out of the way of the plumber's drains and such) and carpenters generally do have a very physically demanding job.
My suggestion to you would be this. If you are upset that you are not getting paid what you are worth, either change proffessions or do something to change the way builders and contractors think about carpenters. Personally, I don't know of a way to do this, and is a part of the reason why I left the trades. Carpentry is now a hobby for me, and I miss being in the trades a little (untill I do some work for myself or a friend outside when it's zero degrees or hovering around 95 ;-)
Ryan
Ryan , that was a pretty good post except for one thing .
" Builders and contractors had/have a problem with paying that kind of wage to generally lesser skilled trades such as drywallers and carpet layers. "
Funny you said that . The drywaller scale is the same as a carpenter in Arkansas . Painters and tapers are paid more! You are trying to justify knowledge in your post but it really doesnt have anything to do with the market , and what it bears. Price is paid on demand. Everyone wants to carpenter .
Tim Mooney
go work for the closet company...or install insulation...or
if you are a sub...charge more...and produce the work that people will wait for and pay for.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Fine Carpentery.....While U Waite
Jack,
Supply and demand. The only advantage to being a carpenter, for one who considers it as nothing but a "Job", is that it is much more possible, and likely, for the ambitious carpenter to work into GC work, then Spec Blding., then "Developing" than for a plumber and electrician.
The reason is obvious. Carpenters form the concrete; carpenters frame the structure, carpenters cut in the roofs, carpenters see well run jobs and abortion jobs, carpenters see how wiring is run, how soil lines are run, how drywall is hung, they install the trim, they build the builtins and the cabinets, hang the doors, waterproof the house with windows siding and flashings.
In short, carpenters learn how to build . This is not so true of plumbers and electricians.
The gamble is greater, but the possible monitary rewards are far greater as well.
Clampman
Hmmnn. I'm not so sure what are carpenters paid so little is the right question
to be asking and may actually give the wrong impression of what carpenters
are really paid. I see the wages that carpenters earn to run from a low of
$14 to a high of $46 around here (Westchester county NY) and that high makes
that particular carpenter that I happen to be thinking of is the highest paid
trade worker I personally know (higher than any plumbers or electricians that
I personally know). I think it all depends on what you mean by carpenter.
Jack Straw when you say "...the guys who install
closets and insulation make as much with no skills" I think you
might be misinterpreting the data that you have. While I do know of some
closet installers who are amongst
the highest paid architectural woodwork installers around I know of many many
more who are making under twenty per hour. if your installing lacquered cherry
cabinets inside a closet you better be paid alot however it's something else
to be installing closet maid wire shelving.
I think what Clampman is implying and I would agree with him on it is that
there is a far greater range of possibilities for a carpenter han there is
for plumber or electrician and that therefore also probably means there is
a much greater possible wage range too.
The truth is that the average plumber and the average electrician
are paid slightly more than the average carpenter (about 9% to 13% more) but
then again there is a much richer more robust education and intelligence required
for those average occupational profiles. However as soon as
you move away from the average into mastery the carpenter
starts to shoot up faster and higher than either of those trades.
But then again here's something else to consider, forgetting about the raw
base wage paid for a second and looking at it from the perspective of the plumbing,
electrical, or carpentry contractor,... who has higher overhead?
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
Edited 3/5/2003 9:30:56 PM ET by Jerrald Hayes
That was pretty informative. Maybe I didn't express myself enough in my post. I do run my own business and now only do high end trim and cabinets/millwork. It is the only way I know that I can get paid a fair wage. The reason I posted this was because I read a previous discussion where someone was offered a grossly unfair amount for the job being offered. I frequently scan the ads in the paper and online just to see how the market is doing and am shocked at the numbers being offered for highly skilled carpentry labor. The average wage is 18 to 22 dollars an hour to work in a high end millwork/cabinet shop with field installation, unskilled labor for framing /roofing/siding starts at 8 to 13 depending on who hires you. And as all of you probaly know , those first years are the toughest, freezind, boiling and in general miserable working conditions.Either number in my opinoin is not a living wage without another source of income or spouse who works. I guess my point is how do we expect to perpetuate our trade when it really doesn't pay that well??? Hey Gerrald , where in Westchester are you around ? Grew up there but moved to Dutchess 10 years ago, stopped commuting to Rye Brook and Greenwich about 3 and now work on some of these big homes up here. It's getting to be just like Westchester up here now, my next house is 5000+ sq.ft. w/ tons of built ins, wainscoat,etc. , no need to trave; anymore although I do miss working on some of those big estates down county. Last house I trimmed before heading north was 12000 sq.ft., just don't see anything like that up here yet, but soon.
Hey Jack....I`m down here in Westchester myself.....Pelham to be precise. I`ve thought about headin` up to your neck o` the woods, but its never easy with kids. Got two of them in school...dont want to pull them away from their freinds. I started in the trades working for a local guy who moved up to Carmel a ways back. Best carpenter I ever met....I learned much. Havent seen him ages, but can only assume he`s doing well with all the work going on up there.
I`ve looked at several jobs up that way in the past couple years. All were attempts to correct shoddy workmanship of new homes. You finding this to be common? All were also pending court cases against builders. I declined them all until settlements were reached. I don`t like to get involved with homeowners who`ve got an ax to grind. I know that what is deemed shoddy by a homeowner is often what was agreed to at time of contract signing. J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Yeah, when I first came this way that seemed to be true on occasion. The clientele who buy these homes are no dummies anymore on the whole. You have to have some kind of head on your shoulders to afford a home that starts at 400,000 and can easily go to 700,000. The houses that I worked on 3 years ago sold for 360,000 brand new, that same house is now reselling at 590,000. You really just have to choose the right builder. You should take a ride up here when the weather breaks and look around East Fishkill. New huge homes everywhere. When Toll Bros. (I'm doing a house on a lot in their development for a private builder) announced their opening sale 'Ronnymeade Estates' in EF they sold 10 in the first week, all over 4000 sqft and are a clear indication of what Dutchess is like now. I'm from Yorktown originally, really liked it there but just can't afford to be there. It's not the small town it was, lot's of bmw's and suv types now.
Hey Jack I'm in Katonah, I grew up in Chappaqua, went to college at SUNY Purchase
so I lived in White Plains while doing that and other than a few years of living
and working in Manhattan I've been in Westchester all my life.
Where you see "The average wage is 18 to 22 dollars an hour to work in
a high end millwork/cabinet shop with field installation," that's sounds
like pretty much like what I see to. What that really may be indicative of
however is that is just the wage range that the company is looking to fill
at the time. A typical company may have 2 carpenters at a 25-30 per hr wage;
5 at 20-25; and 2 at 15-20 so I think what we see and perceive really depends
on the labor distributions within those companies.
And the different project profiles they handle will also effect those skilled
and un-skilled labor distributions. While in a dream world it would be great
to have nothing but $35 and $40 per hour carpenters working for you the reality
is if you are installing nothing but thousands and thousands of feet of of
1x4 square edge base you be pulling your hair out paying them to do that for
1500 to 2000 hours a year.
All of this nit picking and attempts to redirect the way we are looking at
this on my part is not to defend what going on. This industry is very
screwed up in my estimation and there is an enormous amount of money
being wasted all over the place that should be going in to the pockets of business
owners and the employees that do the work but is instead getting "left
on the table" or thrown in the trash. It's just I think to really
solve the problems we need a better clearer picture of what the problems really
are.
Ya know I read a while back that Dutchess county was really booming and I
also read somewhere else that it's expected to be one of the hottest most active
building and remodeling markets in the northeast for the first decade of this
new century.The big estates are coming. In fact some of them are already there
but I am sure there will be more.
What the answer to all this? I don't know. But I guess that's why we are all
talking about it here.
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
Jerrald, I know everybody in Katonah in the trades. How come I don't recognize the name? I guess you don't spend any time down at Jimmy's.
I drive by it a couple of times a day but in the fifteen or so years I been here I think I've been in there twice. I'm more likely found drinking coffee and reading a book down at Perks.
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
jack.. do you play james baird ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I'd love to say that I do , it's really a beautiful park, but I don't golf. Ride my bike(two pedals) mostly in the summer. How does a guy from Rhode Island know about Baird? Former IBM?
my brother lives in Newtown.. Baird is our favorite place when we go ...
hell of a deal..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I can't believe you like James Baird. Do they have any irrigation on that course yet? Last time I played there it was a dust bowl. Next time you're in the area you should try The Links at Unionvale or Centennial ( Carmel, NY) Both cost about $55 w/ cart weekday early morning or after 3:00. Hey, ever play Farmneck on MV?
yes.. they have some irrigation.. i only remember it bad in that drought summer, when the irrigation ponds all dried up..their greens have always been pretty good
i'm thinking $22 - $25 with no cart.... .. who wants to spoil a nice walk.?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Most places today won't let you walk during peak hrs. A great course to walk for cheap is Montauk Downs. It 's in the same NYS system as Baird. Golf Digest top 100 public courses.
i'll see if i can get him to take the trip.. is that on Long Island ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
At the very end of the South fork. You could take a ferry from RI. Actually there is a ferry from Block Island that would put you to a mile away. Otherwise the ferry out of I think Port Judith or Newport would bring you to the North fork and an hour car ride away. Play before June or after Labor Day.
Plumbers and electricians are smart enough to be organize and create a limited amount of members by legislating tiers of apprenticeship requirements. Because of this, they can charge the correct amount for a real business with real overheads. On Cape Cod, a local plumber charges $90 per hours for his plumbers AND for the carpenters too! When I am called for repair work or minor remodeling, I tell the callers that work will cost $40 per hour cost-plus. I give no quotes under roughly $5000. This gets rid of %90 of callers and reserves time for more serious customers. I stopped working for builders years ago. Builders will not pay overtime,workers compensation, self-employment,or provide a safe worksite. Let them hire the kids. They will anyway!
jack; tere is an old saying that goes "always demand what you feel you are worth because the world isnt about to give you a raise" if your willing to settle for a low rate youll find that thats generaly all that you be payed , honestly decide what you should be payed and stick to your guns , it may be tough at first but youll find that after a while it will becomewhat you average
I just hired a plumber to move a gas line and move the drain line at my sink in my condo. Something I would have readily done in a single family home, but the Condo Associations makes you hire these "Approved" professional hacks to do it.
The first estimate was $110 per hour time and materials. A second was $105. I was floored. I called another on the list and they sent someone to estimate it. His estimate, $1100 for what looked like about 5 hours work.
Long story short, I went with the one with the fixed price and they hacked up my copper drain line, brought the stub out crooked, kinked the flexible gas line and used a Sawz-All to drill a two inch hole (I am convinced that is the only "carpentry" tool a plumber really uses). I sent them home early out of disgust and finished the job myself.
I didn't pay for any skill, or training or anything else on that list. They pieced together a 6 foot length of 3/4" Black gas pipe out of 3, 2 foot sections, so I am not paying for a stocked van. There were 5 instances where they could have used a Street Elbow, but chose to use a nipple and regular elbow. The guy who actually did the work was the 27 year old estimator while the licensed plumber carried a few tools in an sat down. I don't think I paid for experience or a license.
I know an excellent carpenter. He shows up to the job on time everyday, works a solid 8 hours, 5-6 days a week until the job is complete. He drives a large van filled filled with more tools then any plumber would ever have (one of the tools is a vacuum that he uses everyday to clean up before the homeowner gets home). He has 35 years of experience. At $50 dollars an hour, he is one of the most expensive around, but this is a far cry from the standard $100+ the plumbers are getting.
My beef. The first of many.
babaum I read you message here and reading your last paragraph
"I know an excellent carpenter. He shows
up to the job on time everyday, works a solid 8 hours, 5-6 days a week until
the job is complete. He drives a large van filled filled
with more tools then any plumber would ever have (one of the tools is
a vacuum that he uses everyday to clean up before the homeowner
gets home). He has 35 years of experience. At $50 dollars an
hour, he is one of the most expensive around, but this is a far cry from
the standard $100+ the plumbers are getting. "
The thought that immediately came to mine (immediately) was the great
Henry David Thoreau quote:
Most
men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still
in them.
That said that carpenter with 35 years under his belt, working on the job
generating 2400 billable man hours a year charging just $50 per hour is robbing
himself. When his solid eight hours on the the job is done is he really done
for the day or does he still have work to do? Figuring a real conservative
modest ratio of 1 hour for every eight he's still got another 300 hours of
non-billable work each year still to do. An even more realistic number might
be 480 to 500 hours of un-billable time. So that works out to approximately
2900 man hrs a year with only 2400 of those hours billed at $50 per hour. There
are about 900 hours a year there that if he was working for some company other
than his own that he would be earning overtime for. Is he paying himself time
and a half for overtime? I doubt
it.
He is certainly not doing as bad as some but then again I don't think he is
really charging enough. Sure it all depends on the region of the country you
are talking about but I still feel confident saying he is probably undercharging
for the work his is performing.
No personal offense intended but from your assertion and the inferences you're
making I feel you really don't really understand much at all about the differences
in the cost of doing business for a plumber electrician and carpenter. When
I posed the question above " forgetting about the raw base wage paid
for a second and looking at it from the perspective of the plumbing, electrical,
or carpentry contractor,... who has higher overhead?" -
I was looking to see if anyone here really knew. The cost of doing business
for the plumber and electrician is typically higher than that for a typical
carpenter and the ratio of non-billable hours to billable hours is typically
higher for them too. The average plumbing contractor and the average electrical
contractor should and probably always will always have a higher hourly rate
than an average carpentry contractor.
As for your bad plumbing experience I wouldn't pin that poor workmanship tag
on plumbers (or electrician) as their exclusive territory or domain. I could
just as easily cite those same kind of experiences with roofers, finish carpenters,
tin knockers, and computer technicians etc. It happens. It doesn't mean those
high rates you perceive are necessarily unjustified or exorbitant. However
the carpenter you wrote about is probably on the other end of the spectrum.
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
I think another thing to note along the lines of risk is this.
I love to have my crews frame houses. It requires a lot of skill to do well and efficiently. It is also somewhat fun to do. There are very few catastrophic errors that can occur a properly managed frame job. If you cut a board to short, you can almost always use it elsewhere. Materials are relatively cheap. I have never heard of a framer being called back to fix a mistake after the job is complete. Even some of the most horrendous frames I have seen, once it is covered with drywall, siding etc., there framer never gets called to fix his mistakes. In other words because all the work is covered, the liability is lower. Maybe untrue of other areas like california but in my area this is true.
Alot of the same things apply to trim carpentry, plus guys will give the trim away so they don't have to frame.
This is just very small part of the equation.
Plumbers and electricians, have serious problem if the work is not done right. Basically the more forgiving the trade, the cheaper the labor. Painters always wonder why the carpenters make more.
Tom
Hey great points Tom! " If you cut a board to short,
you can almost always use it elsewhere." is a great illustration.
We do a lot of stairs and especially hand railings. A custom fabricated helical
easing only about 6" to 9" long can cost $350 to $400. You cut
it just
slightly wrong and the only thing it good for is a sample.
Not really sure of what you mean though when you say "Alot
of the same things apply to trim carpentry, plus guys will give
the trim away so they don't have to frame." Huh? Give
the trim away? (We trim, we don't do framing so maybe I'm missing something
you're trying to say)
"Plumbers and electricians, have serious problem
if the work is not done right." Yup their liability insurance
is higher (not just their worker comp) so right there their cost of doing
business (overhead is going to be higher)
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
Jerrald,
I guess what I'm saying and you've probably experienced it is that there are framing guys who are willing tor trim for the same hourly rate, but they haven't factored in for all the risks.
If the materials are expensive, the or the liability is greater, the person performing the work has to be that much better.
Carpenters generally make more than guys who cut grass. Hair cutters make more than grass cutters.
I appreciate the time, effort and content you contribute to this site.Tom
Hey Tom ya know one thing that (I think) I've seen is that the framers who
do trim (for the same hourly rates) are paying more than they should in terms
of worker comp. Comp rates are I think three times higher for framers than
they are for interior trim installers. There are a couple of framers I know
of who do do interior carpentry too and just knowing them I doubt they have
given it enough thought to ask their agents about getting different rates based
on the hours worked on the two different types of work. That's one of the things
I was getting at when I said above:
While it may not be that important if the split of work is 90% framing 10%
interior finish it starts to mean something if it's more like 50/50. Adjusting
for that difference in comp rates can start to pay for the more intensive tool
and equipment requirements that start to take hold as you move up the architectural
woodwork food chain.
Thanks for the compliment too Tom. And while I appreciate it one of the great
things about this site is the great mix of thinking come from all types contractors
and trades people. I am absolutely humbled and amazed at how many posts some
people have here, wow!
I guess I could ask my boss, but you seem to be fairly knowledgable about this so..
Do you have any idea on how they figure workmens comp rates for a remodeling company? Or what those rates are?
We do framing of two story additions, trim, basements, painting, demo, roofs etc. Remodeling covers such a wide range of other speacialized trades, at least in the company I work for, how do wc companies figure out percentages of what is done and what rate to charge.
If you can't answer this no big deal, just kind of hit me. Don't bother wasting any time if you dont feel like it.View ImageGo Jayhawks
"Do you have any idea on how they figure workmens
comp rates for a remodeling
company? Or what those rates are?" Well yeah CAG I do but I take
it from your Go Jayhawks tag line you're in Kansas?? Workers Comp rates (and
if I understand it correctly the categories too) are set by the governing state.
When you say
your company does "additions, trim, basements, painting,
demo, roofs etc" those categories I've highlighted
in bold are distinctly different workers comp categories with distinctly different
rates. Looking it up in an old (2001) R.S.Means Repair & Remodeling Cost
Data
Book
it says some of the rate for Kansas rates are:
5651
Carpentry-3 Stories or less
12.10%
5437
Carpentry Interior Cabinet Work (aka trim)
7.5%
5474
Painting & Decorating
7.28%
5551
Roofing
20.54%
Those numbers aren't current and they might be based on averages since them
come from a national estimating data guide but it does give you an idea of
what's going on. What happens is a lot of contractors just get one rate and
it based on the highest rated category of work that they do so it is costing
them more than it should to do let's say interior trim work.
Does you company have you record your timecard information based on the different
categories or task classifications of work that you do? For instance if you
work on roofing in the morning but come inside for the afternoon to work hanging
kitchen cabinets are you all recording information like..
Worked on addition roof
8am-12pm
4hrs
Hung new kitchen cabinets
12:30pm-4:30 pm
4hrs
3/7/03 Total
8hrs
If you are it may be just so your company can present that data to you worker
comp insurer when you have an audit so that your rates can be applied based
on the work your really doing.
"Don't bother wasting any time if you dont feel
like it." I have been out working in the field for over two weeks
now. Came down with pneumonia so I'm at my home office with some time to
kill so it's no problem. I'm just here working on estimates and some other
computer stuff. Not sure that answers your question but then again I know
from what I've read here in the past that there are for sure some people
here with more expertise on the workers comp topic than me. This would probably
be a good topic for the Business folder here.
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
Edited 3/7/2003 12:41:31 PM ET by Jerrald Hayes
Thanks, So I guess they workmans comp company takes you at your word as to what you are doing and how long.
We have a time sheet which requires job name and what we did for how long very similiar to what you demonstrated.
Thanks, and get betterView ImageGo Jayhawks
They kind of do take you word - up to a point
They get a paper audit report once a year from me wherein I can separate work according to these classes and more.
Then they can come back and ask for more detailed documentation at random or for cause. For instance, if I filed a claim for a guy falling off a roof in december and another one for a strained back whilke stocking a roof in June, but my audit report showed only one percent of my work on roofs that year, some alarm bells might go off in the underwriter's office. .
Excellence is its own reward!
--Sorry good folks. This post is off topic so you might want to skip this one. Just taking out the trash.--
BOBCAT-
OK. Here I am happily reading away when I come across another copy of your canned diatribe. Like maybe I should care about some imagined slight? Grow up. With this posting you went too far. I'm tired of seeing this sort of dross over and over again.
For the first time ever, on any forum, I feel forced to take punitive action. I'm setting your posts to ignore. Sorry but you forced my hand.
If you post under another name I will contact the system operator. Any decent net tech can track your ISP and have you shut down for spamming. Most ISPs have spamming as a prime offence. And yes you are spamming. You are posting the same thing many times without being requested to do so. Doesn't matter that it is a non-commercial posting.