Replies

1. 
   JeffBuck | Nov 09, 2002 10:44am | #1

   I can't be of much help....I'm right there with ya.

   I work as a sole prop....and I work sole. I'm a fairly healthy 35 going on 36 soon....and aside from the odd sore back.....I like the single life. I'm always on the look out for a helper....or even an equal partner....but haven't come across the right guy yet.

   A coupla yeras ago..I even fired my sisters kid..a few weeks into a busy summer.....as even he didn't do what I asked. Even on jobs when I pick up some side halp....I end up paying them and wondering why I bothered in the first place.

   So...new rule...not sure how long I'll enforce it.......no new help....I'll only work along side someone...which...I'm sure will end up having me question that logic too!

   I used to think I liked to teach others the "right" way to do do things....turns out...my patentience is limited farther than I thought.....maybe the wife was right?

   Wish I could help....all I can say is I think I'm in the same boat!

   Jeff

   ..............Al-ways look on......the bright......side of life...........

                      .......whistle.....whistle.......whistle........

1. 
   Handydan | Nov 09, 2002 12:02pm | #2

   Maybe you should reread your original post, it looks like the answer is already there.  You are way to much like me, hard to work for, stubborn and at least sometimes fussy.  Neither you or the help are going to be happy for long, so if you are making enough money now you should just enjoy the peace of doing everything your way, with limited stress.  Sure that boss's can make more, but I bet that not all do, and that is what keeps me on small jobs and lonely.  Good luck whatever you decide.

   Dan

2. 
   Rarebreed | Nov 09, 2002 03:23pm | #3

   I found myself at a point that my wife was no longer able to help wehn I needed her, (kids in school, day care prices to high during summer) so I talked to a friend I used to work with. He was ready to leave the contractor he was working for, but was lost as to how to bid and run jobs. He got his business permit and insurance, and I hired him as a subcontractor to help with the carpentry and design work. We ended up on a large remodel and found ourselves undermanned so I have repeated the process with a husband and wife, He does carpentry and concrete forming, she restores furniture and stains and finishes woodwork for us. This settup has worked out quite well for me. Hope it helps.

   TCW Specialists in Custom Remodeling.
3. 
   Piffin | Nov 09, 2002 06:08pm | #4

   "haul site debris away whenever I need. (sometimes that person is my wife, but that is a fringe benefit)"

   Is the benefit for you or for her?

   ;)

   I wanted to keep my busuiness small and one man for a lot of the same reasons you mention but the quality work I have a rep for meant that I was in big demand. What you have to be careful about then is that you find other people who do live up to your standards (while you modify your behaviour so they can tolerate you)or you ruyn the risk of ruining your reputation. I have lost count of how many small contractors I've seen follow the curve. They build a good rep in a one man shop, work follows that rep and demand goes up so more help is hirted but the one man finds that he can't manage it all and hasn't developed systems to control training, etc. and then quality goes down. A year later or so, his rep is turning sour while he is still investing in growth. Suddenly he finds himnself with almost no work and goes back to a one man shop, discouraged and cynical about the system that beat him without realizing that he beat himself by not controling it.

   One reason for all this is not realizing costs up front. I know you said to delete the technical but it spills into the philosophical. You would be doing more and more paperwork and selling to keep other help busy. Either you do that in the evenings or you work fewer physical hours on site your self. You still have to pay yourself. So you need to make enough profit off the help to grow. The alternative is to get burned out from working for free.

   Age is part of the mix. You can't do the heavy stuff forever.

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

   "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius

4. 
   Catskinner | Nov 09, 2002 06:39pm | #5

   Hey Justus,

   Man, I love the name of your company. <G>

   I think Jeff and Piffin have pretty much covered it for you, the only thing I'd add is to amplify the idea that your business is in many ways a highly personal expression of who you are, and you need to remain true to that if you want to keep being happy and succesful.

   You probably already answered the question for yourself, I think.

   The decision to go from a one-man show to a company with employees is huge in its consequence. It just depends upon what you want to do, i.e. how will you be the happiest at the end of every day.

   I hired employees as soon as I could, and now have a crew that I can hardly wait to see every morning. I think the world of these guys, they do amazingly good work, they're fun to work with, the clients always like having them around, heck, I could go on and on, but you get the idea.

   Was it easy to get to this point? No way. Was it worth it? For me, definitely, but I can't do the kind of work I want to do by myself. If your creative aspirations require a team effort, go for it. If it's working fine the way it is, why mess with success?

   Glad you asked. Writing this gave me another chance to appreciate my crew in a new light.

   Semper Fido.

   DRC

1. 
   NHufford | Nov 17, 2002 11:18pm | #10

   The answer is in the name of his company- Running Pug!  I can't imagine a better name for some one who prefers to work solo.  When I have help around they usually cost me more than they're worth.  I don't lay the blame on them, it's me.

                                             Huffy

5. 
   Brudoggie | Nov 09, 2002 08:53pm | #6

   When I started, most of the work was one man stuff, high end trim, custom cabs, etc. My reputation, from being so-called lead for former employer, was for building quality, high end homes. Didn't take long for this to catch up with me, as a house came along. Hired a helper, did the job, good results. Then spent alot of time, trying to keep him in work he could handle, not up to the custom stuff. Finally, after a year he quit. That's a whole other story. Now I'm solo again. Stress level is about half, paper work, less than half, schedule overly full. Homes keep coming. I'm trying a different approach. Have an old friend, who's a small ( 2 man) contractor. He does great work, and is willing to help me close in projects, which is what requires the most help. I have to schedule around his work, but that gives me the chance to go back to smaller custom jobs, when he's not available. I also have another 1 man contractor, who I trade labor with when we need an extra hand. That ,may be your best route.Takes some flexability in your schedule though.

    Brudoggie

1. 
   Justus | Nov 10, 2002 09:28pm | #7

   Thanks guys. In truth I've never really considered hiring anybody on, What I was really trying to find out from your expirance was just how a one person shop turns into a company.

    There is a lot of great stuff above this, on both sides,  and I'm getting a better idea of how it works.  I respect anyone out there that not only takes responsiblity for their employment but also for one or more other people as well. I'm also happy to hear that there really is good help available. It is hard to find though.

   Justus Koshiol

   Running Pug Construction

1. 
   ProDek | Nov 11, 2002 12:09am | #8

   I've trained lot's of guys to become their own boss. Right now my Son works for me and we get along great together. I might mention, he is also a licensed contractor so he takes care of his own taxes. Hiring a licensed contractor will save you the grief of time cards and payroll taxes.

   There are lot's of guys out there that are dependable but need a little extra training. They may not have the same disposition as you, but then sometimes you may be able to learn from them. It's hard to be humble in this profession if your head gets in the way all the time.

   I would try to find an eager but peaceful spirited type of guy that was willing to learn the trade and willing to grow in terms of customer relationships, business ethics, cleanliness, how to make a profit, and how to build a quality end to what the customer wants.   

   Bob

   "Rather be a hammer than a nail"

1. 
   Snort | Nov 11, 2002 02:19am | #9

   Sounds like you're happy working solo. I did it that way, too, 'til I wasn't. When I started trimming whole custom houses with unbid, unexpected extras every day, no way I could keep things on schedual by myself. Throw in a bunch of overhead and scaffold work...I needed help. Plus, I really would rather work with other folks, the two heads better than one therory, I subscribe. Sometimes help is agravating, but I can get over it...

   You can can solo, incorporate, save on taxes and be ready for the time you can't make the living you're accustomed to, all by yourself.

   I'm old, I need all the help I can get, and I have some great young bucks who put up with my persnickity perfectionism, and we have a pretty good time, too...

   and pro-bob glad to see you got the animated pounding going!

   I swiped this from some ancient memory, wish I could give due credit...

   It's okay, I can fix it!

2. 
   FramerJay | Nov 25, 2002 07:56am | #18

   Mr. Koshiol,

   I highly respect the fact that you are "no-compromises" when it comes to quality workmanship, as there are far too many who sacrifice quality for speed and accept "good enough." Having said that, I would also like to add that I wish I could find more people like you (and the others in this forum) in my area that I could really learn from working with. Even though I only frame houses and my boss is a good one, there are still times when I would like to slow the pace down some and really concentrate on quality and technique. As a last note, I an assure you that somewhere there is someone who is both willing to meet your standards and able to tolerate fussiness. If I lived near you, you could bet I'd show up at your site, if only to watch you work.

   Best regards,

   Jason

   aka Captain Strap

1. 
   Justus | Nov 25, 2002 09:35am | #19

   You've got a great attutiude Capn' I think you will do just fine.

     Framing really is Go Go Go, you don't make any money if your sweating 1/16 of an inch on a 2x4 wall. At the same time the framing is the skeleton on which everything is built. The better it is the easier and better everything goes from there on out. From drywall to finish carpentry.  There is no reason not to take pride in your work just because no one but you will ever see it.

    Thanks to all for the great input on this topic. I've discovered something about my personality just recently while working with someone in my shop. There I'm twice as demanding, but I have no trouble teaching and working well with my student. (This is something I cannot do at a job site) Maybe it is because the shop is my place, if something takes twice as long as it should, big deal. Justus Koshiol

   Running Pug Construction

1. 
   don26299 | Jan 27, 2003 07:13am | #20

   I started out working for other contractors '65 to '70. 

   Then I worked by myself for 18 years.  There were benifits to this,  but it was a lonely haul.  There was a certain anxiety making all (or most, depending on the customer) of the decisions.  There were overwhelming stretches. 

   During this period I tried hiring guys, searching like you for the answer, which turned out a lot like being in jail.  I remember one guy I hired when I started work on an A frame house and found out he a. didn't know right from left  b. couldn't read a rule  c. was afraid of heights  He was a great ground crew. 

   The last 15 years I have "buddied up" with another carpenter from another background of experience.  This is the best I can imagine.  We each have our own contractor's insurance/license.  We each make our own bill.  We split the material markup. 

   It just gets easier and easier.  It's hard to describe all the advantages to this.  It seems when we meet a design problem we are bouncing ideas back and forth and come up with a far better idea than either could individually. 

   It is safer.  It is more fun.  Less stress.  It does have to be the right person. 

2. 
   jimblodgett | Jan 27, 2003 05:48pm | #21

   Any of you guys play much racquetball?  Chess?  Ping pong?  You ever notice it's way more fun if the person you play with is about the same ability level as you?  Same goes for partnering.  It seems like a great solution, but you have to partner with someone who shares your artistic and business values or there will be bigtime conflicts. 

   The best thing about working alone is I find myself doing what I need to do, when I need to do it, not worrying Sunday night about Monday.  But then again, I really don't enjoy telling other people what to do, or how to do it.  Others enjoy "leadership" - that's okay, we're all different.

3. 
   don26299 | Jan 29, 2003 07:01am | #22

   The "partnering" setup we have (myself 58 and another guy 55) is equal and complimentary abilities.  It is also not a legal partnership, strictly informal.  It's not for everybody, I wasn't saying that.  It's just the best I have found in 38 construction years. 

4. 
   Mooney | Jan 29, 2003 07:57am | #23

   I think there is a lot to what you said ,but I get more meaning because I have struggled over it. Heres my take;

   If you have to pull tools to service someone else and schooling lessons, then I find it hard to make it. Too much of the time theres 2 people looking at a 1 person job. Profits seem to suffer.

   If there are two  people with separate talents with their own tools aboard their truck, with  knowledge to work  alone and be humble enough to play wing man , the profits , and the amount of work done can be high if done in a business like manner.

   Examples;

   Help me hang the ceilings, then you form the driveway by your self with a lazer while I hang the walls by my self. [ give me a hand on the high walls] I will hang all the ceiling butts and small closet ceilings alone. We both  finish the pour and texture together.

   Ill wire the house while you roof it. But we both stood the framing and trusses.

   Sub it and forget it.

   You work alone while I do a service call . We both have our tools on board.

   Too many to mention ,..... But two are only together when necesary.

   Tim Mooney

5. 
   jimblodgett | Jan 29, 2003 08:53am | #24

   Yeah, that works well, no question.  Or the example Fonzie gave of having complimentry skills, and each being secure enough to defer leadership on one task and take it up the next.  That's probably where parnerships have the most potential, if there are clear areas of expertise.

   But there always seems to come a time when one partner has different standards than the other, artistically, or ethically, and someone ends up having to compromise their values - not good. And of course, both their names are on the project...just gets real messy real fast if you aren't partnered up with the right person, that's all I was saying - like a marriage almost.

6. 
   don26299 | Jan 30, 2003 07:24am | #25

   It's true you can imagine a lot of ways the set up mentioned can "go wrong"(it could) and I have to admit there was a time I didn't envision it working.  In this case it is. 

   One of the biggest advantages is that all decisions aren't being made from one point of view.  This is a stress reliever and job insurance.

   As Tim Mooney mentions each has to be willing to play wing man, second fiddle or whatever.  First fiddle isn't all it's cracked up to be.

7. 
   don26299 | Feb 01, 2003 04:34am | #26

   Yeah it is like a marriage, almost.  And in some ways working for people for extended lengths of time (17 months recent example) is like a marriage,  almost. 

   One factor we haven't mentioned in this thread is the issue of hiring new help and bringing them in to people's homes.   That is a factor.  It is another reason I like the set up we have.  We know each other.  It can be hard to know a new guy like you need to for remodeling situations. 

6. 
   FrameBoss | Nov 18, 2002 03:00am | #11

   I say this knowing I use to have a full head of hair now I'm bald!

   Dont do it! I have have a crew of 10 employies  went through partners(business that is )  and still get frustrated. If and when I get caught up I'm going to down size.Big jobs big headaches.... In all honesty it is what ever you want to make it. If you want life to be simple stay small. The more you are in need the more you can charge  or so says the supply and demand theory!  Hope this plastic pearl of wisdom helps!

1. 
   user-409932 | Nov 25, 2002 04:20am | #12

   I went from single man up to a 3man crew. It was nice for scheduling and keeping up with demand. Quality and productivity went down though. Have been back on my own since May of last year. The biggest benefit? I raise in my average manhour rate of $15-20/hr. It's just a matter of selling it to the builder and being willing to bust a$$ to keep up sometimes... Money's all mine, everthing looks pretty and when I run out of work, it's vacation time!!! Just your average lurker...

1. 
   StanFoster | Nov 25, 2002 05:40am | #13

   Justus:    I am a one man stair shop...my wife helps part-time.   I would never want the headaches of having an employee.   I can leave when I want...only have to  worry about scheduling myself.....less paperwork....less headaches.   I feel it is far more efficient as well.   I have no complaints on my income...and to make a little more with some help wont do me one bit of good as I would no longer be enjoying my work.

1. 
   55512122 | Nov 25, 2002 05:59am | #14

   Theirs some really good and varied perspectives here, I too owned a business for 18 years went from myself to about 10 employees back down to two. Also was a perfectionist and build a reputation with that which almost always suffers when you hire someone to do the job you were doing. Then all you have time for is keeping the jobs rolling in and paying and collecting bills, taxes, paper work and trying to get the quality your customers expected while keeping good help and getting rid of the slackers. I sold out ( got tired of the southern california lifestyles and cheap built but expensive houses). Moved to NC (home) and work for a major company doing product development. Much less headache and cant beat their health insurrance and paid holidays & vacation and retirement benifits. Something you dont get when self- employed. JMHO, Roger

7. 
   1stingray | Nov 25, 2002 06:25am | #15

   working by oneself is, in a word, lonely.

   The other question is one of goals. Is it the business or the craft that you love? Judging by the thread it is overwhelmingly the craft. I have a two man company and I love every day on the job but... I want to build a business and I cannot do that if I spend all my time in the field. The ability to delegate is a halmark of all good leaders. Finding and hiring people that you trust and that represent your business well can be motivating and liberating. The knowledge that I have a crew to keep busy gets me out of bed and keeps me hungry for new and interesting work.

   Edited 11/24/2002 10:20:01 PM ET by 1STINGRAY

1. 
   JeffBuck | Nov 25, 2002 07:24am | #17

   That's a fantastic line....."is it the biz or the craft".......

   and also the perfect reason/excuse for me to justify staying solo.....for the time being....

   I'll keep that line in mind....and if the gears switch to biz...I'll know it's the right time to try to grow.

   As I've been looking at bigger jobs lately...I've been giving this more and more thought...the hiring an employee or two part........

   Your line just hit a nerve and sums things up for me. Thanks!

   Jeff..............Al-ways look on......the bright......side of life...........

                      .......whistle.....whistle.......whistle........

8. 
   NedMogul | Nov 25, 2002 06:28am | #16

   You're right, employees can be a real headache.

   But the right ones can also be a very profitable experience.

   It's up to you if you want to make the jump to at least 50% manager, 50% artisan.