Why can’t I find a contractor that . . .
JourneymanCarpenterT
| Posted in Business on
Okay homeowners, this one’s for you. What do you wish you could get a contractor to do? What do you wish you could get a contractor not to do? This is your opportunity to express what you want in a contractor. There’s one catch though – you have to be willing to pay for it.
Example:
You get three bids for a particular job. One bid is considerably more than all the rest. You’d be willing to take the highest bid IF . . .
–T
Replies
he'd show up when he says he will and concentrate on getting the job done once started.
i have never had a job done here that the guys didn't intersperse way too many other jobs and i guarantee that none of the clients were happy with all the waiting.
I understand and accept that sometimes there is down time while waiting on supplies to ship, or due to weather conditions, or for things to dry/cure etc, and the workers make use of that time by going to other work sites. but i've had people overbook too many jobs and have had parts of my house torn up for unnecessary months at a time. BTW, these were not necesarily the lowest bidders. usually they had been the ONLY ones to call me back or give me an estimate, or appearedt to behave the most responsibly relative to their competition, at the start.
>> he'd show up when he says he will and concentrate on getting the job done once started.<<
That is probably the most surprising to my clients and many have commented on that one factor -- exchange usually goes something like this:
HO: "I can't believe you are here again today!"
ME: "Uhhhh, well the job is not done - today I was planning to .........."
HO: "That's not what I mean -- you have been here every day"
The conversation digresses to past horror stories of absentee contractors.
Obviously, I cannot be on their job every day - weather, family, life, interfere sometimes. But, I always try to warn the HO ahead of time - "Mrs. X, I will have to leave no later than x o'clock tomorrow to take my daughter to the dentist."
Cleaning up after myself helps popularity also - I leave a job area as clean or cleaner than I found it. Every day.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Don't worry the coming few years will sort out many of these things.
During a building boom many contractors get work that in slow times go bust due to the fact they are no longer able to get work without good references from satisfied customers. I have also had delays in jobs due to others involved in the job One example was a kitchen remodel and custom cabinets were not ready to install when promised and then when they did show up they were sent back because the finish was not right. But I had other jobs scheduled following that cabinet install so even though the cabinets were ready the following week I had to make the home owner wait until I finished the other jobs I had scheduled for after theirs. It is simple if my schedule is interrupted at all during a busy time of year it could be sometime before I can get back to a job that was delayed no matter what caused that delay. I try not to let this happen but sometimes it is unavoidable. It is not always because a contractor over booked. Home owners do not always remember that when the contractor showed up to work they had to waste a day because the old cabinets needed to be empted or the electrician the home owner wanted to use was not ready when they told the contractor he would be.The key to keeping clients happy or at the very least appeased is to communicate with them throughout the job so they understand that if things do not stay on schedule or a change is made it could and probably will delay a job for more then just the extra time of that delay or time the change took to complete. If it causes a run in to a another scheduled job. They may not be happy about the delay but they will understand it better.After all put your self in the place of the other customer they are ready to go and were promised I would be ready to start I might have subs scheduled for that job. Or the customer (especially if they are a GC) may have other subs also scheduled for that time or need you me to complete my work so another sub can come in after me.
I can’t say I will get to you next week. Sure I understand living in a construction zone can be trying and if all stays on schedule contractors should try to finish jobs without delays but at times things happen. Even a single day missed or delayed could mean a total delay of a week or more even if that one day is all that is needed to complete your job if your job was not kept on schedule and it can snowball if a contractor tries to stay and finish one job that was delayed and then starts jumping around. Actually they are trying to please everyone but in the end they just cause more delays on the other jobs.
Not to mention those customers who cause the delays, by neglecting to make a decision in a timely manner, or changing their mind in mid-job...then gripe because the job took longer than you said it would!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
not a HO ... but ...
once had a customer tell me they had 3 bids, and I was the highest.
said 2 of us were fairly close ... think a 2K difference in an $80K bid ...
and the third was more than $10K under us.
other high bid was a large company.
my company ... just me.
it was an extensive basement remodel.
in the end ... I got the job.
they said they felt that to me, it would be something to be proud of ... that I'd be more "involved" ... and actually care about the small details.
to the other company ... just another job.
which was cool ... because I try to force myself to ask "why" ...
when given both good and bad news.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
This is a great thread. Homeowners, keep it coming!
I'm trying to figure out how to promote myself right now. I need to know why homeowners will choose me over the next guy.
This thread is right on target!
Btw, how much does cleanliness factor into it? In my old job, our boss advertised that we had the 'cleanest installations.' He was right. He figured that he owed a LOT of business to that, which may or may not have been right.
He was right.
The best money on any tool that I have ever spent was on a vacuum.
I get/have gotten more refferrals from giving a degree of respect for HO's residences than anything else. It's easy for me - I'm not here for the money.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
My experience dovetails with Jhole and John T8. I do restoration work and I commonly have to field complaints on why it takes so long or what have you but One thing I do that has had an enormous positive response is; I put up containment on every job that generates dust. Even as small as 36"x36". Its not all that difficult to do or work in and the customers really appreciate it. (It also makes clean up easy. I try to vacumn (Sp?) even if its the customers dirt I am cleaning up. I try to accomodate the customer as well. I.E. I have a customer right now who is sick so I don't press the issue to work. (I don't want to get sick and when I run the air hose through the door it lets in 20 degree air!) Is it a bit of a hassle? Of course But I have plenty of work. But calling the customer is a huge deal. They just want to be in the loop. Treat them like you would want to be treated and you will be covered up in work. Oh yea, and don't go to the customers house sick. Especially when they have kids. They'll literally thank you!
KD
I too have one ( customer) at this time who is a real stickler for communication. I mean hand holding , explain in detail both schedule and progress and the 5 w's.
I do what I can, and I charge for the time it takes to repeat what was already laid out. Fine with him. If thats what he wants to buy, I'll sell it.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Even as a contractor, getting others to return a call, show when they say, do what they say . . . unfortunately, its out there. Usually if I have any kind of rapport at all with someone that goes miles towards the rest of it, but there are occasions where the frustration level is high.
And the devils advocate side of that coin - there are some days, if the phone does not just get ignored, the work will. There are some customers, if you talk, you're talking for an hour. And again this afternoon. And then tomorrow. And they want ten hours of time and a drawing and an estimate, and then want it itemised, and then want to change it . . . for free. Whatever. So are there some people that I just ignore? Yup. Honestly I hate to admit that, but it is reality.
But its like saying all contractors are "x" when you're really just talking about the bad example set by one or two. Most homeowners are just fine. Its the one or two that drive you nuts that make for the storytime.
I wish more of us had better time management skills. I wish more of us used good, thorough contracts. I wish more of us were willing to stick to our guns on items of principle like charging for an estimate. It has always struck me as silly to see the guy in the slow time cut his own throat just to stay occupied. I heard of a drywaller here last year, 67 cents a foot, materials and labor, turnkey. Figure that one out. How much are you losing every day?Real trucks dont have sparkplugs
Most of what you said makes absolute perfect sense and I agree with it.
One thing I didn't agree with was the ignore comment. That just puts you right back into the box with the "others", who don't answer and won't call back. I would prefer it if you would just say - I can't handle this job. Simple and direct, no hard feelings. Anyway, that's my two cents.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renvoations - New Construction - Rentals
Amen Brother Don!! spread the word!to all--if you don't want the job, tell me asap. If i don't hear from you, i assume it's par for the course since FOREVER seems to be an acceptable timeline around here and i will keep waiting on you and probably bugging you. (my personal style is to leave messages after a certain point explicitely saying, please call me either way because i need to move forward).if you don't plan on giving me an estimate or doing the job, get it over with and let me know. we'll both have less unfinished business hanging over our heads.
Edited 1/4/2008 9:43 pm ET by msm-s
We have built a business on many of the things mentioned here. We set a date and time to show up and do so 95% of the time. If we can't we call as soon as we know, at least 48 hours notice.
We clean up at the end of every day. It is to be clean enough the homeowner can walk in and inspect that evening in their socks. (thought bare feet might be risking it lol)
If you have a warranty call we will be there in 24 hours for a leak or such. If it is an adjustment or something of that nature we will be there that week.
One guy is assigned that job start to finish. He is there everyday and will only leave early or show up late when he has told you so. Other people will come and go on the job but that one man is the lead and everyday guy and it is his job.
We tarp from the door to the job site every day and pull the tarps daily and vacume around them. I got most of this stuff from reading Sonny Lycos rants. It really works and once everyone gets used to it take little time. DanT
i have had experience both ways. i have been a contractor and a customer this year as i had a auto accident and have not worked in 1.5 years. as a customer i love it when someone keeps me in the loop as far as time is concerned. the thing i hate the most, is a result of how easy jobs have come to us the last 15 years. people, if you want to survive, treat your customer as you would want to be treated. remember the golden rule.
AMEN!!!
AMEN!! You hit the nail on the head!
BIG p.s.- if you call promptly even to let me know you are declining the job, i am far more likely to call you again or recommend you to friends.
You are so right. They are burning bridges that do not need to be burned. How do they stay in business?
Is this the person who will be begging for work in 6 months? Just once I wish they would call me then.
What does making a phone call take?
Once had a guy answer an internet inquiry I had posted. Said he would come look at the job. Came out and said it was bigger than he could handle but would be interested in building my deck because that was his specialty. Gave me a few names of who to call for my project. Guess who I'm calling when its' time for my deck?? Nice guy....appreciated his honesty.
I used to do some work for a company writing software and worked with another person that developed the hardware. We had to communicate a lot.He would call and ask if I was busy and say no. An hour later he might ask the quesiton.Learned to respond, Yes, but what do you have.He would ask and we would be done in 5 minutes.Then he got to where he started the calls with "I know you are busy, but can you answer this...".I don't have the smarts to do this much, but it really helps when you can learn to direct the conversation..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
it's the old...
man i wish i had 10 customers like you.....
problem is i have 100......
p
>>But calling the customer is a huge deal. They just want to be in the loop.
Definitely!
After waiting a bit more than the 3 week estimated leadtime for my garage door installer, I called to see if he had a scheduled install time. He had just received the door in that morning, and was hoping to schedule for the following week.
That week came & went, & I called again just to get a feel as to what his schedule might be - realizing that this was a busy time for him and the winter weather is a major player at this point.
Apparently he had come by the previous week to install the door, but found when he got there that the door was the wrong style. He was scrambling to try to get the right door, and would call me the next day to let me know where things stood.
That was almost 4 weeks ago, and I haven't heard boo from him.
This is a large (16x9) insulated steel door, so fairly significant, at least to me.
I understand things happen, the holidays & weather affect schedules, & this garage has already been 2-1/2 years in the making, so a little more delay isn't a big deal. If he'd given me a call or 2 in that period, just to let me know what was up - even if it was that he was waiting for an answer from the mfg -- I'd be ok.
As it is, even if he shows up next week, does a great install job, there's always going to be that little bitter taste left from the lack of communication, which will taint any future referral, as in "yeah, he did a good job, . . . But . . . .
Don
I second this
I got many jobs from customers just driving by the jobsite, then commenting how clean the site and the construction site looks. It does not take much to have a clean site, besides it is much safer to work in clean conditions. It looks organized when your lumber material is nicely stacked and not spread like a dog's breakfast. People WILL judge you by appearance.
I'm trying to figure out how to promote myself right now. I need to know why homeowners will choose me over the next guy.
Do good work for people who aren't shy about sharing your name with their family/friends.
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
return the first initail phone call. if i need a roof done i will need to call 5 companies,wait three days and see i f anyone responds,then go to the next 5. usally in 10 calls i will get2 call back one guy bids and usally if i like him ,the jobs his.
the only exception to this rule is here in our local paper in the classified section they have a professional service catagory. i have great luck with these guys ,i think it's because they are looking for work,thats why they placed the ad for that day. so i get the call back and can get a bid.
one of the greatest guys i have found on there, his company name was "woodbutchers " now that might scare off alot of people. but i got a sense of humor so i called him. needed help setting some `13/12 x 40' rafters and i just wasn't into climbing around in the top of them. so any way he came out and looked said yeah i'll help ya ,30 bucks a hour,hired. day comes crane trucks here,he looks at me " guess since i'm making the big bucks i'm up at the top " just grinning . at the end of the day rafters up,sheeted,tar paper down. gave him a 200.00 tip i was so happy.
so simple answer,callback even if you don't want the job,tell em.they may call you next year for a job you want.larryif a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
my business ads (when I ran them) used to say "old fashioned service - all calls returned the same day"
I've not been out of work since that time.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
"Everybody wants to know what I’m on...
What I'm on? I’m on my bike, busting my ### 6 hours a day…
...What are you on?"
- Lance Armstrong
"I've not been out of work since that time."
uh ... dude.
U work for a magazine.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
U work for a magazine.You're a little faster on the trigger than me today.http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
nice to know there's backup!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
True, but I only spend about half of my weekly work hours at Taunton. The others are doing remodeling projects.Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
"Everybody wants to know what I’m on...
What I'm on? I’m on my bike, busting my ### 6 hours a day…
...What are you on?"
- Lance Armstrong
I too am a contractor but we hire others such as AC,plumbers, etc. I have hired the most expensive electrician before because he would do a quality job and do it in a reasonable time frame.
Only he didnt, but that is another story. He did come back and fix it though after bothering him to no end.
Where there's a will, there are 500 relatives
I just did some more work for a lady I overheard at a garage sale:
"It must be in the job description to be a flake and not show up!"
"I know I can't get this guy to even come look at my door!"
I introduced myself, gave a card and said I'd show up.
That was all it took.
Okay homeowners, this one's for you. What do you wish you could get a contractor to do? What do you wish you could get a contractor not to do? This is your opportunity to express what you want in a contractor. There's one catch though - you have to be willing to pay for it.
Call when he/she says they're going to. Show up when they say they're going to. Mail or call with the bid when they say they're going to. Most of the problems I run into are with folks I haven't worked with before. I figure if they can't bother to call when they promise to or show up for a meeting, I sure don't want to risk thousands of $$'s on their work.
You'd be willing to take the highest bid IF .
If I have 3 bids and I've had people give me glowing reports about the high bidder and I don't have any info on the middle & low, then I'll probably go with the high. Better to pay a bit more for a known quantity than risk hassle with an unknown.
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
Sometimes if they'd just return your calls, that would be enough. Even if it's "Sorry, I'm too busy for new jobs right now, but try back in April, if you're still looking."
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Sometimes if they'd just return your calls, that would be enough. Even if it's "Sorry, I'm too busy for new jobs right now, but try back in April, if you're still looking."
And I wouldn't have any problem with that response. They could say they were too busy or that the job wasn't up their alley... or whatever. I'd tell 'em thanks for taking the time to look at it.
But instead some of 'em will say, "I'll send you that bid next week" or "I'll call you with that bid tomorrow." etc... When they have NO intention of giving you a number. To me that has shades of dishonesty to it, and I won't do business with them even if I do get a job more to their liking.
Whereas with the guys who were honest about it, I would be willing to try again in the future.jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
In the past serveral years, I have interviewed many contractors. As we speak, the project has officially started 3 days ago.
How did he get chosen? Numerous reasons, some tangible, some not.
First, and foremost, I became more knowledgeable. I lurk on this board daily soaking up as much info as I can comprehend, especially if it relates to my project. I was able to explain more in detail, in somewhat a proper lingo, what I wanted. Had also spent countless hours on the design, asking questions on this board, in trying to determine what could and could not be done, and what my budget would allow.
I also made errors. The worst one, that sticks in my craw even today, was to pay a design fee to someone who couldn't design his way out of a hat. Lost $2100.00 and learned my lesson.
So, why didn't the others appeal to me? One made the mistake of showing me his portfolio of one kitchen that was butt ugly and gave me a bid that represented that kitchen. Don't get me wrong, I liked him and know he certainly wasn't to blame for what his client chose. He also seemed knowlegeable but from that one kitchen, I knew we weren't on the same wave length. Another guy was very likeable also. Gave me a bid but talked about all the commercial work he does and how that is how he makes his money and it comes first. Told me to get the kitchen designed and give him a call. Didn't seem real interested in the project. His bid was very very vague, also.
The contractor I chose came recommended from an acquaintance even though the scope of work was not near to what my project entails. He called immediately, came out within a week, quoted within a week and so far has kept me informed of what I need to have done by what date. He has suggestions for the areas in which I'm lost and seems to have the vision of what I want. He does not do the designing. Also, the subject of budget never came up. He gave me his price and I added in all my extras.
Of course this is not how I started out.
I can understand why bidding is so time consuming and wonder where you guys get the time to put together a comprehensive bid. While "interviewing" contractors, I found it much easier for them and myself, to use allowances in their bids for cabinetry, windows, floors, etc. Some of the allowances were mine, some theirs.
In my fact finding over the years, I'm sure a couple of people were well qualified but they never called me back. Just recently had need for a new garage door and a roof repair Guys came out, gave me a price and now I can't get them to call me. What gives? I still have a leaky roof and am hoisting a wooden double garage door every morning. I get so fed up. When some one complains business is slow, I'm ready to send them a plane ticket. Just show up and do the work!
Sorry for the novel. This thread hit a sore spot for sure.
from a contractor's point of view...
So, why didn't the others appeal to me? One made the mistake of showing me his portfolio of one kitchen that was butt ugly and gave me a bid that represented that kitchen. Don't get me wrong, I liked him and know he certainly wasn't to blame for what his client chose. He also seemed knowlegeable but from that one kitchen, I knew we weren't on the same wave length.
Yup. Eliminate this one because you didn't like the taste of one of his clients, what could be more logical than that? Lesson learned: don't show portfolios of previous work, might be on the wrong "wave length".
Another guy was very likeable also. Gave me a bid but talked about all the commercial work he does and how that is how he makes his money and it comes first.
Too honest. Don't want him! Lesson learned: Heck with honesty, tell 'em what they want to hear.
Told me to get the kitchen designed and give him a call. Didn't seem real interested in the project. His bid was very very vague, also.
What!? Expects you to have a completed design before he could give a bid? Not interested in bidding a project without plans and spec's? Nonsense! Lesson learned: The guy with enough integrity to refuse to bid on a non-existent design is out of the running, best to give a bid even though it wouldn't be worth the paper that the plans aren't printed on!
Sorry - guess I have some sore spots too!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
So, why didn't the others appeal to me? One made the mistake of showing me his portfolio of one kitchen that was butt ugly and gave me a bid that represented that kitchen. Don't get me wrong, I liked him and know he certainly wasn't to blame for what his client chose. He also seemed knowledgeable but from that one kitchen, I knew we weren't on the same wave length.
Yup. Eliminate this one because you didn't like the taste of one of his clients, what could be more logical than that? Lesson learned: don't show portfolios of previous work, might be on the wrong "wave length".
He only had pictures of ONE kitchen, what else does he have to look at?
Another guy was very likeable also. Gave me a bid but talked about all the commercial work he does and how that is how he makes his money and it comes first.
Too honest. Don't want him! Lesson learned: Heck with honesty, tell 'em what they want to hear.
The Contractor basically said, -you'll get seconds because my bread and butter is the commercial kitchens!
Told me to get the kitchen designed and give him a call. Didn't seem real interested in the project. His bid was very very vague, also.
What!? Expects you to have a completed design before he could give a bid? Not interested in bidding a project without plans and spec's? Nonsense! Lesson learned: The guy with enough integrity to refuse to bid on a non-existent design is out of the running, best to give a bid even though it wouldn't be worth the paper that the plans aren't printed on!
This one I agree with you %100, hard to bid something that you cant see.
I know that we see these things through our own eyes and therefore interpret them differently, just my take on it.
I do think the one big thing that will get you/anybody the job is about the simplest thing to do, call the customer back and show them some attention. The people that are looking for the bottom bidder isn't going to go for you regardless but they should be treated just like everybody else.
I knew an old GC that used to tell me that he enjoyed the best reputation, "I was known to be very expensive but very good" - I believe he was right, don't think he was ever without work, even during the tough times.
Doug
He only had pictures of ONE kitchen, what else does he have to look at?
Right. So its better to have pictures of NONE than of ONE. There was no mention of any problem with the quality of the work. There was no mention of the job being incomplete. OP admitted the contractor didn't design it. Mentioned that he seemed knowledgeable, likeable even. No mention of any other contractors showing their pictures. Bottom line: OP didn't like the "butt-ugly" style picked by a previous client, this is their grounds for eliminating the contractor from the bid list.
Did they want a contractor who takes pride in his work? This guy brought pictures of his last job with him. He wasn't proud of the design - since he didn't design it. He was proud of the work he did. By their own admission, he was personable, knowledgeable, he showed up, gave a bid, brought pictures - Nope, not good enough, hit the road, thanks but no thanks, sorry.
The Contractor basically said, -you'll get seconds because my bread and butter is the commercial kitchens!
Right. Had he lied, and said "You'll get first priority" he might have gotten the bid. He was refreshingly honest and up front - he makes more money on commercial work, so he gives his commercial projects first priority. Probably how he keeps his prices down on residential work. He wanted them to know where he stood - he could do their job, and for a lower rate than he usually charges. He would save them money by working their job in around his more expensive jobs. This opened the door for dialogue on scheduling, completion dates, time frames, etc. Nope, not good enough, hit the road, thanks but no thanks, sorry.
I agree with you %100, hard to bid something that you cant see.
Then you're out. Have to eliminate those guys who want working drawings and spec.'s in order to give a firm bid. One guy whose price was "vague" - because there were no drawings was eliminated.
I know that we see these things through our own eyes and therefore interpret them differently
Well, that's certainly true. I just thought the OP might benefit from seeing one contractor's reaction to their post. ...Or not. =)View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Huck
OP didn't like the "butt-ugly" style picked by a previous client, this is their grounds for eliminating the contractor from the bid list.
OP said that the guy was trying to shove that same kitchen on to him! If he thought it to be butt ugly then why would he go with the guy that could only produce one butt ugly kitchen for him to look at?
He was refreshingly honest and up front - he makes more money on commercial work, so he gives his commercial projects first priority. Probably how he keeps his prices down on residential work.
How much residential kitchen work you do, its pretty damn competitive so I doubt the guy is doing commercial work so that he can keep his prices down for the poor residential market!
This opened the door for dialogue on scheduling, completion dates, time frames, etc. Nope, not good enough, hit the road, thanks but no thanks, sorry.
Maybe the HO/OP wasn't into waiting for someone that would "fit" him in-between his good customers. Where did you read that he wanted a better deal/price on the kitchen and was willing to sacrifice for it?
Its obvious that you feel some need to defend contractors that you think are being vilified, have fun. There are some bad contractors out there, maybe the OP found a few, don't know, I wasn't there, but apparently you see it different and that's cool, I didn't read it the same as you but I wasn't looking for it.
I have to go back and see what the title to this thread is.........
Doug
Sorry Doug - not trying to start anything. Just wanted to show that there's another side to the OP's judgement of contractors that didn't 'measure up' for various reasons.
I have no argument with you, or even with the OP. I'm just trying to show that maybe its not always best to go into a bid situation looking for reasons to eliminate bidders. To me, each story sounded like it could have been a viable situation, but wasn't given the opportunity.
So many here have bemoaned contractors who don't show, or return calls. Here were several contractors who did show. Yet they were eliminated for reasons that, to me, seem capricious.
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
And it very well might be the way that you perceived it, I'm more wrong then right when I guess.
All we have is the OPers version and we both know that's not always a good barometer.
Regards
Doug
And it would seem to me that they showed up on their own dime. Ending up in a bad / uncollectable investment. Maybe the other people who are so pissed about contractors not showing up, is due to the contractors running around spending their time talking to people who are just wasting the contractor's available time.
Seems like AC ( I think it was ) Actually was the only one who came out somewhat ahead in this. He had nothing invested and got serviced at least three times. The contractors had tangible assets invested and got nothing out of it except bad mouthed.
Huh.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
This is a sore spot for me, because the area I live in is a depressed economy. Meaning everyone, whether they have money or not, is looking for a "deal". I couldn't begin to list the time-wasters and tire kickers that I deal with DAILY. People just fishing for free information, who have no respect for the value of my time and the years its taken to acquire the knowledge I have.
I've even had friends (ex-friends) of mine call me to discuss a project, have me discuss various design options, costs, etc., over a period of weeks, all on my dime - then go hire an unlicensed bootleg contractor to do the work because he's cheaper.
I also have a wealthy client who trusts me, leaves her key with me, uses me all the time, but calls another contractor for a bigger project because he's the guy all their friends are using! Then complain to me how expensive he was, while they're hiring me to finish his work. - Go figure.
You wonder if people had to pay us for our bids if they'd be so wasteful of our time. And ain't it amazing how they'll dump a bidder for some reason known only to them, and never even discuss it with him, or tell him why! Didn't want to hurt his feelings. What's so hard about saying "I liked you, but feel a little uncomfortable about ....., can we discuss this aspect of your bid?" Then they complain about contractors who don't communicate!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
OK, yeah, you have run into goofy HO's. I think you should start a couple threads: one thread for "how to filter out the tire kickers" and maybe another thread for "how to keep from wasting a lot of time on a project that goes to another contractor"
Seems like I remember reading that some of the pros hereabouts charge for bids.
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
I would like to reply to your comment. Yes, contractors invest a lot of time getting no return. Like I said, you are walking a fine line. Do you spend hours with clients and end up not getting the job or do you submit a general quote to see if people are serious, maybe risking an opportunity by not spending enough time!
I would not want to be in your position. I don't feel I bad mouthed anyone....just trying to relay deciding factors. Were they the correct reasons? Maybe not, but I had to go with who I felt comfortable with. Yes, I feel bad for having wasted someone's time but how else can someone do this? As a consumer, we are told to get three quotes, minimum. Well obviously, two are not going to get the job. What else can be done?
And it would seem to me that they showed up on their own dime. Ending up in a bad / uncollectable investment. Maybe the other people who are so pissed about contractors not showing up, is due to the contractors running around spending their time talking to people who are just wasting the contractor's available time.
If the contractor is worried about "tire kickers" wasting his time, he/she could probably post a thread here on BT asking other pros how to avoid tire kickers. Otherwise, if he makes an appointment with me and doesn't show up, I'm not going to think positive about him. I don't believe in tire kicking because I don't want to waste a contractor's time, but I will occasionally bring them in several months before I'm planning on having a job done. If the job is several months off, I will tell them so on the phone when I first call them and leave it up to them when to make an appointment.
Seems like AC ( I think it was ) Actually was the only one who came out somewhat ahead in this. He had nothing invested and got serviced at least three times. The contractors had tangible assets invested and got nothing out of it except bad mouthed.
The contractor had time invested, just like the HO. If the HO doesn't go with the contractor, then both have lost their time investment.jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
I appreciate the feedback from the other side. I really do. It helps to keep me somewhat in touch with what I'm trying to accomplish in my service oriented endeavor.
But I have to temper that with a plead or degree for understanding from some one who , by time stamps, spent from 11:15 until 2:06 on a wednesday afternoon telling people why they should return calls.
In that same time period today: I juggled two new projects and advanced another project that was on my plate for today, which I stole time from my main project to get accomplished. I spend over 2000 minutes on the phone each month, and that is with screaning my calls.
My tire kickin' days are over. Just dealing with GREAT customers and keeping their needs met is an overwhelming task - it does not allow for 3 hours in the middle of the week to kibitz about phone calls and how rude someone may think it is that I didn't get right back to them.
The contractors had sooooooo much more invested than the HO that the point you are trying to make is almost lauffable. Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I don't know about others, but I come here during the day to kill time when I'm waiting for a computer run to finish, etc. Kinda the equivalent of waiting for the plumber to show up, only plumbers are more predictable.Anyway, it may seem like I'm doing nothing productive when in fact I'm keeping quite busy on other stuff and just drop in and out for five-ten minutes every now and then.(Of course, at home in the evenings this is my replacement for TV, which I find incredibly boring these days.)
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Ok.
Maybe you should use that time returning phone calls.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Nobody calls me. Or when they do it's drop everything anyway.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Same here. I get a couple mins and want to get my mind off a problem, I can pop up the notify emails, follow the link, and read & reply. Can help you solve a problem if you get your mind off it for a couple mins. BT is good for that.
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
But I have to temper that with a plead or degree for understanding from some one who , by time stamps, spent from 11:15 until 2:06 on a wednesday afternoon telling people why they should return calls.
Was that directed at me? Are you trying to make this personal? You don't know me and have no #### idea what I do in a day, so I would be a little slower in making judgements. You want a cookie for working on 3 projects? Sorry, but not from me.
it does not allow for 3 hours in the middle of the week to kibitz about phone calls and how rude someone may think it is that I didn't get right back to them.
Maybe you should work on your multi-tasking skills then. Or perhaps your reading skills, because we're talking about people who DON'T return calls and who don't show up for appointments. If you return calls and show up for meetings, then I guess we're not talking about you, so you don't have to get ruffled and defensive.
The contractors had sooooooo much more invested than the HO that the point you are trying to make is almost lauffable.
How so?
I appreciate the feedback from the other side. I really do. It helps to keep me somewhat in touch with what I'm trying to accomplish in my service oriented endeavor.
No you don't. You've had crappy customers and therefore came out swinging on the side of the contractor in this thread. When people tried to explain a point, you simply kept swinging. You don't appreciate feedback from "the other side", you're simply looking to make your own point.
I've already admitted that there is no end to crappy customers. Are you going to tell me that there are no bad contractors out there? If you're working 3 projects, that means you've already sifted through the bad guys and have a stable of good subs, but surely you can remember a few of the bad ones?jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
Hey, slow down. If you are trying to figure out whether I'm jumpin' on you then it probably means I'm not.
You would know if I was.
I threw a frickin' bone out there.
I still don't have time for this, but I'll get back to you.
In the meantime you may want to settle down a bit.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Hey, slow down. If you are trying to figure out whether I'm jumpin' on you then it probably means I'm not.
My first rule is I don't pee on anyone else's charcoal and expect the same from them. Rule #2 is that if someone is going to try to pee on my charcoal, I'm not going to stand there and let them do it.
So if you weren't attempting to pee on my charcoal, I apologize for getting ruffled.
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
Hard to believe that this isn't going better then.
Because one of my rules, not my first, but it's on the list somewhere, is not to whip it out around major heat sources,
anymore.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Hey, I've met him and I know what kind of guy Mr Tate is. He's one of the good ones. But he is a big mofo. Try not to pisss him off.http://grantlogan.net/
View Image
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
I never did, ( try to pisss anyone off)
In fact, i think I said that I thought it was cool to hear from the other side, to keep me in check on what I was trying to accomplish - ( keeping my customers happy). In fact I think I stated that it was good to hear from the other side - twice.
Second, I just posted my thoughts on a bullitin board, in response to others who posted theirs.
I'll take your word for it, on the fact that he's an ok guy, never really thought that he wasn't, didn't cross my mind.
I do not go into inter personal interaction giving a damn about the size of the person I'm dealing with.
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
"No you don't. You've had crappy customers and therefore came out swinging on the side of the contractor in this thread. When people tried to explain a point, you simply kept swinging. You don't appreciate feedback from "the other side", you're simply looking to make your own point."
Yes, I do.
Crappy customers are long behind me, or at least now I know how to not take the worst - and deal effectively with the rest.
It was not my intention to "swing". Maybe it got lost in the typed word.
I see both sides of this to some degree.
It is just wrong for anyone who isn't in the mix to judge someone who is. No matter what profesion they are in.
"walk a mile..."
Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I appreciate and understand your view point as the contractor. The first meetings between contractor and client, as I see it, can be likened to having a date or two. You meet and talk with each other to get a feel for who and what they are about....kind of sizing one another up. Some times its' immediate whether you mesh or don't. You may not always be able to put your finger on it as to why it works or doesn't but you just know one way or the other. It has nothing to do with the people involved, only that it isn't working.
From my point of view, this person and is family is going to be in my home for months so there has to be some sort of "clicking" in the relationship.
It seems my post did not come across as I intended. What I intended to do was to give some sort of concrete reason to why that particular contractor was not selected.
Yup. Eliminate this one because you didn't like the taste of one of his clients, what could be more logical than that? Lesson learned: don't show portfolios of previous work, might be on the wrong "wave length".
Really now. The guy had one project to show me.....laminate floors and what looked like plywood cabinets in a room that may have been 12x14. My project has a $100,000.00 price tag consisting of 2 bathrooms and a high end kitchen. What did he show me that would make me feel comfortable that he had the skill and experience to do my project. I'm not saying he didn't. He just didn't show it to me. I don't know him from Adam. What else do I have to go on?
Too honest. Don't want him! Lesson learned: Heck with honesty, tell 'em what they want to hear.
Again. Really. Tells me his commercial work comes first. Now come on. I have a 3-4 month project and he is just going to up and leave to take care of his commercial clients? That's fine if I was redoing a basement or some other room but not a kitchen and bathroom. I'm pretty flexible but you're not going to leave my job to take care of another when I'm living in chaos. Don't quite understand the selling feature here. Honesty??? Just tell me you will not finish the job in a timely matter because someone more important will come first. I am your customer, I am the important one.
What!? Expects you to have a completed design before he could give a bid? Not interested in bidding a project without plans and spec's? Nonsense! Lesson learned: The guy with enough integrity to refuse to bid on a non-existent design is out of the running, best to give a bid even though it wouldn't be worth the paper that the plans aren't printed on!
This probably was not clear in my post and I apologize. I, at this point was not looking for a general price, I already knew the ballpark figure. I knew what walls were to be removed, what support had to be added and what size beam needed installed. The only item not finalized was kitchen cabinetry layout and exact window sizes. I had my own drawings of room size, where furnace ducts needed to be relocated and the fact that the electrical panel needed replaced. Couldn't tell him exactly where the plumbing had to go until the walls were opened up. I even gave him the allowances for the cabinetry, appliances and windows. What more did I have to do?
Yes you have some sore spots and rightfully so. Generally, people are not educated when it comes to having work done on their home. They do not have a clue as to what things cost. Unfortunately, your time may be wasted going out and giving an estimate and having people tell you its' too much money. I can't even imagine how frustrating that is. But you can't take your frustration out on the consumer. Its' all business.
I'm glad for the opportunity to have this conversation. You seem like a reasonable person. I'd like to explore some of your statements. I'm going to write my reaction to your statements - of course you don't have to answer everything, I just want to show what I as a contractor am thinking. And I think I could benefit from understanding your viewpoint better. And since you mention it frequently, I'll just say now for all my statements -yes, really.
Really now. The guy had one project to show me.....laminate floors and what looked like plywood cabinets in a room that may have been 12x14. My project has a $100,000.00 price tag consisting of 2 bathrooms and a high end kitchen. What did he show me that would make me feel comfortable that he had the skill and experience to do my project. I'm not saying he didn't. He just didn't show it to me. I don't know him from Adam. What else do I have to go on?
So... he hadn't done any other remodels but that one? Was he new at the business? Aren't most cabinet carcases made of plywood? Or was it the doors that were made of plywood? I've installed some beautiful cabinets with frame and flat-panel doors that contained plywood - is that bad? I recall you saying that he seemed knowledgeable, and that you liked him. It seemed to me that you were indicating he would have had a better chance to get the job if he had showed you no pictures, rather than the ones he did bring. Did you ask for other pictures? Did you ask for references? Did you communicate to him that his one kitchen pictured wasn't enough to give you confidence?
Again. Really. Tells me his commercial work comes first. Now come on. I have a 3-4 month project and he is just going to up and leave to take care of his commercial clients? That's fine if I was redoing a basement or some other room but not a kitchen and bathroom. I'm pretty flexible but you're not going to leave my job to take care of another when I'm living in chaos. Don't quite understand the selling feature here. Honesty??? Just tell me you will not finish the job in a timely matter because someone more important will come first. I am your customer, I am the important one.
How did you know that it was a 3-4 month project - did you have a timeline mapped out for the projet? Did you discuss your timeline and scheduling at all with him? Did he say "I'm going to up and leave you for my commercial clients, and leave your home in chaos" as if that were a selling point? If so, then I see where you wouldn't want to hire him.
It seems to me that if a contractor says he makes more on his commercial projects, then he is making less (meaning: charging less) on his residential projects. Is that bad? Is it possible he could keep your project moving while doing other projects? Is he the only contractor who bid your project that does more than one project at a time? Did you discuss the relationship between cost and priority? Did you ask how he would handle scheduling if another project came up?
I agree, everyone wants to hear that their project is the only priority - and lots of contractors will tell them that, to get the job -whether its true or not. So a guy who says up front that he has other jobs is, I think, being honest. I think that would open the door to a conversation about how he plans to handle that situation.
This probably was not clear in my post and I apologize. I, at this point was not looking for a general price, I already knew the ballpark figure. I knew what walls were to be removed, what support had to be added and what size beam needed installed. The only item not finalized was kitchen cabinetry layout and exact window sizes. I had my own drawings of room size, where furnace ducts needed to be relocated and the fact that the electrical panel needed replaced. Couldn't tell him exactly where the plumbing had to go until the walls were opened up. I even gave him the allowances for the cabinetry, appliances and windows. What more did I have to do?
You already knew the general price, and the allowances. Sounds like you were giving him the prices, not the other way around. And he was supposed to make a commitment to build your project, at your price, without working drawngs, without knowing the layout, the window sizes, and the plumbing locations? And this was a bad thing?
Would you promise to buy something from me for a set price, even if I wasn't clear exactly what I was selling? I run into this a lot - 'could you give me a firm bid for my project, even 'tho I have no drawings, no spec's, and no clear idea of exactly what I want?' Like him, I have a hard time being anything but 'vague' with those parameters. Not sure how it could be otherwise, but I'm all ears if you have a system figured out.
I can't even imagine how frustrating that is. But you can't take your frustration out on the consumer. Its' all business.
Really, what's frustrating to me is bidding work to consumers who make desicions arbitrarily based on supposition and assumptions, without discussing these with the bidders. If a consumer respects my time, appreciates my efforts to work with him to put a price on his project (no easy task, and generally done for free), and discusses his concerns openly, giving me an opportunity to address them, then its all business and no bull - which I'm all for!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
So really. :>) I don't want you to think that I'm putting these guys down. I'm just trying to relate my impressions of them and what led me hire someone else. I am probably much different than many consumers so I'm not sure my input would be beneficial to you. Did you ever have that oddball customer that may not neccesarily have been difficult but .....not sure how to describe it. Maybe eccentric? That's me. Why they were not chosen may have more to do with me then them.
So... he hadn't done any other remodels but that one? Was he new at the business? Aren't most cabinet carcases made of plywood? Or was it the doors that were made of plywood? I've installed some beautiful cabinets with frame and flat-panel doors that contained plywood - is that bad? I recall you saying that he seemed knowledgeable, and that you liked him. It seemed to me that you were indicating he would have had a better chance to get the job if he had showed you no pictures, rather than the ones he did bring. Did you ask for other pictures? Did you ask for references? Did you communicate to him that his one kitchen pictured wasn't enough to give you confidence?
Of course the cabinets contained plywood. What I saw were the end sides and the appeared to be stained plywood instead of whatever finish they put on them. Cabinet doors? Once again, not his fault if that is what the client wished but I would hope that he tried to talk them into a finished end. Other items that turned me off, and once again, it's just me, was he tried to change everything about the floor plan drawings. I am very open to ideas and love design input but from the start, I showed him the drawings, explained I have worked on this for years and now let's do it. He suggested the same things 3-4 times which kind of put me off and gave me the impression that he did not see the space as I did. No, I did not tell him his picture did not impress me. I don't think I could have communicated that...too afraid of coming across as a put down.
This all sounds so negative and is not meant to be. The bottom line is, he was pleasant and seemed knowlegeable. But did not make the cut out of the three.
How did you know that it was a 3-4 month project - did you have a timeline mapped out for the projet? Did you discuss your timeline and scheduling at all with him? Did he say "I'm going to up and leave you for my commercial clients, and leave your home in chaos" as if that were a selling point? If so, then I see where you wouldn't want to hire him.
From learning about all that was involved in the remodel, I calculated 3 months plus a little extra for the unforseens. Of course, if there was a crew of 10 with all trades there everyday, like Extreme Makeover, that would be shortened considerably, but that's normally not the case.
It seems to me that if a contractor says he makes more on his commercial projects, then he is making less (meaning: charging less) on his residential projects. Is that bad? Is it possible he could keep your project moving while doing other projects? Is he the only contractor who bid your project that does more than one project at a time? Did you discuss the relationship between cost and priority? Did you ask how he would handle scheduling if another project came up?
No, because I just did not think to question his statements about his commercial work. It actually made me wonder if he just said that to impress me. I've met a few people that have made a point of saying they do commercial work. Is that a selling point? It may be, I don't take it that way. To me, residential remodeling is in a class of itself and appears to be a bit more challenging; requiring more finesse? I may be totally off base, just my impression.
I agree, everyone wants to hear that their project is the only priority - and lots of contractors will tell them that, to get the job -whether its true or not. So a guy who says up front that he has other jobs is, I think, being honest. I think that would open the door to a conversation about how he plans to handle that situation.
I see where you're coming from and once again this is just me. Maybe I was looking for more hand holding instead of someone that sticks his head in everyday for an hour. And of course, I want my job to be the first priority. Actually, the guy doing the work now will be on the job sight everyday and involved in everything. He subs out electrical, plumbing and tile work. Not that he is not a contractor of some sort, and I won't be surprised if he isn't there some days, but he will be doing the majority of the work.
You already knew the general price, and the allowances. Sounds like you were giving him the prices, not the other way around. And he was supposed to make a commitment to build your project, at your price, without working drawngs, without knowing the layout, the window sizes, and the plumbing locations? And this was a bad thing?
Would you promise to buy something from me for a set price, even if I wasn't clear exactly what I was selling? I run into this a lot - 'could you give me a firm bid for my project, even 'tho I have no drawings, no spec's, and no clear idea of exactly what I want?' Like him, I have a hard time being anything but 'vague' with those parameters. Not sure how it could be otherwise, but I'm all ears if you have a system figured out.
Ha! Do I have a system figured out? It has taken me 5 years to get to this point so my system stinks. I don't feel I set the price. The actual cabinet layout was not set so instead of having a contractor spend time determining what cabinets were going where and having me reject the layout several times, I came up with a material price allowance for the cabinetry and countertops. The same with the windows; knew there were going to be 4 windows, exact size undetermined. We came up with a material allowance for the windows. I had already selected the tub and that cost was in the allowances. This seemed so much easier for the contractor and me. I'm shopping for what I want. If I go over the allowance and blow the budget, that's my choice. The markup on those items are included in his total cost. Hope some of this made sense.
In remodeling, as in some other businesses, there is a high level of distrust at the begining that needs to be knocked down. Consumers distrust contractors because of negative publicity and contractors distrust consumers because they can put their heart into a job and not get paid. Contractors spend a lot of time educating people about their homes, all that is involved in remodel and repair, basically, to explain what generates the costs. If they do not understand, they will always feel as if they were overcharged.
I have read a lot on this board and I took it upon myself to learn what I could about what would be involved. Ha! Of course, I still got sticker stock to the point of nausea when I got my first estimate, but I got over it. Now the cabinetry is a different story. Totally blowing the budget on those!
I'm not sure what exact business you are in , remodeling, new builds, etc but one thing that came up when I first started getting estimates was budget. At first, everyone asked what the budget was. The last three guys did not. I asked for a price and got one. It was refreshing.
I know you probably have some arguments with this but I did not like the questions about what my budget was. I'm aware of the reasoning behind it but it did put me off. I have a long drawn out explanation for it too! :)
Huck, I try to see things from both sides. It is a very fine line you guys have to walk. I hope I have given you some insight also.
I am replying only to the fact you are put off by someone asking your budget.
You can not imagine how many people we quote work for that "thought it would be a lot less, wow, I guess we better hold off on this for now".
That single question can save us (contractors) a lot of time and money if the budget is not in the ball park.
And let me say if the contractor is honest and wants to do a good job even a tight budget is not bad. We can help with the decision process as to what you can do to get the project you want and still do it with what you have to spend.
A poor choice example is a client that bought cheap cabinets (really cheap) for a really nice house and then put granite counters on top of it. She is now trying to sell the house. Guess what everyone says? We advised good cabinets with less expensive counter tops which can easily be changed later compared to the reverse.
A good choice was a client that needed a new tub and surround plus wanted an update in their bath. They had a quote for $7600.00. They leveled with me and said they had 5k. We managed to get all their basics done for $4650. I quoted that leaving some for hidden issues that never happened. We made money, they got a nice product and in the end they could go out to dinner. I realize that 5k is not much to spend but it was the first example I can think of.
If you don't want to share your budget that is your choice. But I don't understand being "put off by it". Over all some of your points are good but I also wouldn't quote the job with that many loose ends. People have a way of asking for something, you quote it, they change it and then want the same price. And are appauled that you want more. Not you of course. Just a lot of people. DanT
Dan
I totally understand what you are saying. Maybe "put off" wasn't a good way to put it. Like you stated, you are trying to give me what I wanted on what I could afford.
I guess it was that mistrust issue. I give you a budget and you give me the cheapest products so you can make the most money. Believe it or not, that is what I thought. If someone had said the laminate floor would cost this and a tile floor cost this much, maybe it would have been clearer. But instead the quote would include laminate flooring and I was told I couldn't afford tile. It was true, the budget couldn't fit tile, but I wanted to decide that. I should have asked the price difference but was trying to not take so much of the man't time while I sorted all this out. Until I started to understand the labor involved and pricing out products, did the light bulb go off.
In the beginning, I was definitely one of those tire kickers, trying to find out exactly what the costs were. I tried to not waste anyone's time and was very upfront about everything. During the spring, I worked with a guy that really taught me alot. He made many suggestions that I ended up following. Had subs at the house to quote the numerous repairs and I thought I had finally found the person to work with. The problem? He would just disappear! He would quote me a price, I'd say okay, then not hear from him for 2 months. He'd call again, and the process would start over. Then he would disappear again! I was so disappointed but I had to move forward.
I guess I just wanted to make the decisions on where my money was going to be spent.....granite countertops and linoleum floor. Ha!
I was wrong about how I perceived the whole process in the beginning. I took it upon myself to learn more from both ends so I was comfortable but it took a long time.
AcC
I like working for a guy like you, you have a plan in your mind, some idea of what its going to cost and it doesn't sound like your living in some fantasy world about when it should be able to get done and how little it should cost to do it. Its refreshing to work for someone that actually has some idea what it takes and especially what they want.
I do agree with what DanT says about finding out the budget up front. I also understand where your coming from when you don't want to reveal that figure ahead of time, I'm reluctant to show my cards first. I think the problem that you have is that you know something about what your doing so therefore giving out the number goes against the grain but you have to understand what Dan is saying, no fun when we come to a house and work up a bid/price just to find out the customer didn't have a clue, or the money, to do what they wanted to do.
BTW, I don't get these guys that say the contractor is giving you a free bid, sounds like they don't know much about the business end of things. The time to make up bids is all part of the cost of doing business and therefore its calculated into the costs associated with it.
I think Huck and JHole are just looking out for the "good ole boys" when they stick up for the contractor, this is a site that comprises(at least those that post, don't know about the lurkers)of a lot of contractors so your going to get that sort of feedback when you find fault in one of their own. Its easy to read between the lines on these forums and it happens all the time.
Doug
The issues brought up in this thread are a prime example of "two sides" and neither of the sides are wrong.
Both sides are based on experience and that is life's biggest educator.....but not always the best one. One bad experience and you think you know it all.
There have been a couple of horror stories on this thread. As a homeowner, it's scary! And I hope contractors and tradesmen realize that this is what people read and hear about. Contractors also have their own horror stories that they base their actions on and their replies reflect that. Understandable. It sometimes seems like a no-win standoff but I hope it's not. As a female with limited resources, I appreciate all trades. Reading about some of the projects on this board humbles me. The knowledge and artistry is amazing.
BTW, I don't get these guys that say the contractor is giving you a free bid, sounds like they don't know much about the business end of things. The time to make up bids is all part of the cost of doing business and therefore its calculated into the costs associated with it.
Exactly. Homeowners get 3 quotes...guess what, 2 are not going to get the job. End of story. Don't mean to sound harsh but I see no other way around it.
In the beginning, the quoting process was for me to get an idea, no matter how rough, of what cost I was dealing with. How else could I do this? The material cost research that I did was so I can make an informed decision of what I was willing to pay for. Ha! I am presently waaaayyyyyyy over budget on the cabinetry because I went with someone else's numbers without researching and they weren't even close. My bad. Won't happen again and I will just have to cut corners somewhere else.
As it became closer to beginning the project the quoting requests was more for me to decide who I was comfortable with. I already had an idea what this was going to cost. It became an interview. I chose a guy based on my gut. Doesn't mean the others were bad. Doesn't mean this guy is great. He may turn out to be the wrong decision. I hope not and I will do my best to make the relationship work through communication and hopefully informed decisions.
"Exactly. Homeowners get 3 quotes...guess what, 2 are not going to get the job. End of story. Don't mean to sound harsh but I see no other way around it. " Quote
At the risk of getting flammed. This is just my third posting on this forum. I should know better than to get into a discussion like this. I also have to admit that I am having troulbe sorting out who said what and may other have said what I am about to say.
I am a Homeowner and some people might describe me as a reformed DYI er. I worked for over twenty years as a Professional Engineer (hope no one holds that against me) in the Oil and Gas Industry. Residential construction is in many ways different than building oil and gas facilities. So, in some respects I am no smarter than the average homeowner when it comes to house construction. For four of those years I worked as either the Project or on site engineer responisble for building oil and gas facilities. Preparing bid documents, selecting contractors and getting the facilities built.
Things cut both ways here. Unfortunately (maybe it is fortunate since it is not always a pleasant ezperience), most homeowners get involved in major home renovations or building a custom home once or twice. I am sure we learn from our mistakes and will probably do something differently the next time. And in most cases it would be one on the largest single personal expenditure that we make.
Having said that, I am a little troubled here and can understand Hucks and JHoles point of view. AcCable is correct in saying that only one bidder would get the job. The problem that I see here is that one of the bidders put in his time and effort to submitt his bid but did not have a "hope in getting the job."
Unlike some of you, I always take the lowest bid after I normalize all the bids. I know that it costs time and money for any contractor to submit a bid. So, before I ask anyone to submit a bid, I talk to the contactor and look at his or her work. Do I like the quality or the work, do they have the time to work it into their schedule and meet my schedule, can I work with them etc. Is there something that troulbes me about the situation. I get all that resolved in my mind before I even ask anyone to bid. I don't ask someone to bid and then after they go to all that effort say sorry but I am not going to give you the job because I don't like the quality of your work or whatever.
The problem that I see is that someone who should "not" have been asked to submit a bid was asked to bid. I am sure that this happens all the time on residential construction projects but that does not mean that is right. The Homeowner has the right to give the project to whomever they wish. The Homeowner should have said, after talking to the contractor, I don't believe in my mind that the quality of the work will meet my needs. Those people should not even been asked to bid. But I believe that anyone who makes the time to bid on my projects will at least have a chance of winning the bid.
What do I mean by normalizing the bids. Once I receive the bids, I want to make sure that I am comparing apples to apples. Each contractor is different and may bring special skills to the table that others can not replicate. This may include special custom made doors or a special way of insulating walls. So some of those special features could be worth paying a higher price. At this point I would be prepared to have any of the bidders do the work based on the quality or their individual work. I might "not" be prepared to pay $20,000 for the extra custom door or whatever but I might be prepared to pay $5,000. I just use those numbers as an example. So, I might still end up giving the highest bidder the project because those extra features would be worth the extra price.
I don't automatically give the lowest bidder the project. I also look very carefully at the lowest bid. This becomes very important if there is a huge difference between bids. Did the contractor miss something ? As the Homeowner you can not get "blood out of stone." If the contractor missed something really big, then you both become potential losers. The contractor could go bankrupt or cut corners at the end to finish the job. In either case you will both be unhappy.
In some cases the Homeowner is better off going cost plus. In those cases, the Homeowner needs to be even more careful. In my mind, a fixed price contract only makes sense if the project is really well defined and there is a reasonable number of qualified contractors who are willing to submit a reasonable bid. How can you have a fixed price contract if you can not put the project down in writting with referrences to drawings. In a heated economy, the best contractors are already fully employed. The best of the best are already fully employed and don't need more work. They don't have time to chase after sucker projects. Some may just place a really high bid and if they get the job then great.
Put it another way. If you don't have good drawings then you don't have a well defined project. If you don't have a well defined project, all sorts of things can go wrong.
I hope I did not offend anyone or repeat something thing that someone has already said. This is such a long thread and I am having trouble remembering what everone said. Just my personal views.
Welcome to Breaktime.
That was a very good post. Well said.http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
Very well reasoned and stated post.
Welcome.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I'm sure some homeowners might find this upsetting, but sorry, I'll be charging at least as much as the local home center to come out for an estimate. I really don't care if that means it'll take a while to grow my business. I plan on starting a company while working for someone ells part-time.
If a homeowner wants a ballpark price, I'll give them a quote, but only over the phone. Additionally, I'll only give a quote over the phone after the potential customer answers a few questions that will qualify him as someone I'm willing to work with. (That's right, someone I'm willing to work with.) If they're not that "someone," I'll politely let them know. As for any contractor that says it's not possible to give an immediate quote because of too many complications, I think they need to specialize in one field at a time until they nail down their numbers.
There! I probably offended both customer and contractor because I was blatantly honest. I'll probably be flamed beyond Breaktime belief for saying it, but what else would you expect from me? My character just won't let me hold back the blatantly obvious. It needed to said.-T
As for any contractor that says it's not possible to give an immediate quote because of too many complications, I think they need to specialize in one field at a time until they nail down their numbers.
You sir are full of hooey. Just my humble opinion.
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Edited 1/14/2008 1:36 am by Huck
you just now caught on to that?
I think you are expecting way too much of yourself to be able to put a number on a job immediately. It seems like you are going to take some big losses if you do not take the time to fully understand the scope of work involved.
I'm not sure I would trust someone that shoots from the hip for a price plus you need to protect yourself.
I prided myself on knowing where the plumbing would be rerouted or the furnace ducts. I knew where the floor supports were weak and that the electrical needed updating. Not that you would not figure that out but I don't think you would know without fully examining the job. If you quoted me a price and didn't know the floor needed supporting or major plumbing was in order, your quote would be invalid. Pus you would have those yahoos out there that would try to hold you to that quote not knowing that these types of repairs would not be included in the original scope of the project.
I think you are greatly misunderstanding what I mean by quote as compared to an estimate.
Example of quote:
A homeowner calls and wants to know how much it would be to drywall a room. I tell him I'll give him a rough idea (quote) if he gives me the square feet of the room and the height of it's walls. I then use a multiplier to find the approximate square feet of wall in the room. Then I multiply the approximate square feet by my average drywall job's square foot cost. That is a quote.
A "quote" is non-binding and is explained as only a rough idea so they can determine their budget. If a customer wants an actual accurate and binding "estimate," they'll have to pay for it.-T
>If a customer wants an actual accurate and binding "estimate,"
I'm thinking the terms people use is part of the problem around here.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
I agree in principle with this - but find resistance from the buying public. I've even given people a bid - but verbal only. Told them it would be $50 to put it in writing, refundable if I get the job. Nope, then we won't consider your bid.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Perhaps it’s just a terminology thing again, but from I get from your post, I can see why that might happen. To me, a bid means one thing: A commitment to a price. For example, if you bid on something at an auction for $20,000.00 then you’ve already committed yourself to that price. If you say you want $50 to put it in writing now, then you are simply charging for writing a contract, because you already made your bid. Why should someone pay you for writing a contract when they haven’t even decided to choose you? You did, however, say that they would not even consider your bid under these conditions. A few simple questions can eliminate this type of customer on the very first phone call.<!----><!----><!---->
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For the sake of clarity, let me change what I understand as a quote, to the expression ballpark. Now say someone calls and you ask them a few questions to qualify them. Once you deem them worthy of the information, you give them a ballpark. You refuse to commit yourself to a bid price, however, until you can create an accurate estimate. As far as I’m concerned an estimate includes a bid, but is more than just a bid. An estimate is one of the things that separates the contractor from the wannabe. It is an itemized list of what you propose to do for the bid price.<!----><!---->
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Although other contractors may be willing to spend their gas and time to come up with a bid and write a contract, it is only by using contractors that provide estimates that a customer can compare apples to apples. There is, of course, another reason a customer should WANT to pay for you to visit their project: The opportunity to get your advice. Therefore, an estimate, and possibly consultation, is reasons for a homeowner to be willing to pay you to visit their home.<!----><!---->
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By the way, does the local home center charge $50 to come out for an estimate where you are? It’s $35 where I am. There are evidently people paying it. I think it’s great if you can get the whole cost (including labor) for an estimate. For some of us though, the direct costs (gasoline, mileage, paper, electricity, phone calls, etc. . .) of creating an estimate should be enough to preserve cash flow as well as eliminate tire kickers. As was mentioned though, in this instance the cost of your labor gets figured into your overhead, and then all of your customers end up splitting the bill.<!----><!---->-T
Journeyman-
What do you do to cause your font to be so small and not possible to enlarge by adjusting the font size?
Peace in.
Edited 1/14/2008 10:21 pm ET by rez
Edited 1/14/2008 10:22 pm ET by rez
Journeyman-
What do you do to cause your font to be so small and not possible to enlarge by adjusting the font size?
Does everyone have the problem of my font being small, or is it just him?-T
Having read all of the above my not so humble opinion is that anytime you are willing to "state" a price, ballpark, quote, etc. with no more information than some strangers version of what it will take to do the job you are asking for trouble.
We do a lot of bath remodels and face lifts. 25 in 2006 and around 35 in 2007. I wouldn't put a price on a bath remodel without seeing it, ever. There are just too many variables. A bath tub can cost $100 to 5k easy. Tile can cost 50 cents each up to $20 each. And without talking with the homeowner and getting a clear picture visually of what they want and you are up against as far as condition of the existing bath I don't know how you would even guess a price.
Now, once I have seen the existing bath and have chatted with the client if they are using standard materials I can do a price sitting there at their table in 10 minutes. But blindly I wouldn't be willing to do that. And I know my product and know how to make money at it.
The other issue is the people factor. I once quoted a price in the newspaper in an add. Worst mistake I ever made. People would have you come out and flash the add and that price. Make 3-6 changes. You increase the price to match the upgraded material and to a person they said you were trying to take advantage of them. The add clearly stated that material changes would probably cost more but that didn't matter.
Stating a price over the phone I think is a mistake unless you are simply trying to thin the heard and weed out the folks unwilling to spend at your level. Also by stating a price over the phone you lose the opportunity to sell yourself and your product. Granted you wind up with a few flyers but that is true in our business no matter how hard you try to avoid it. DanT
Having read all of the above my not so humble opinion is that anytime you are willing to "state" a price, ballpark, quote, etc. with no more information than some strangers version of what it will take to do the job you are asking for trouble.
I can appreciate that point of view, and I also realize it's not all that uncommon. However, expert and 3rd generation contractor Myron Ferguson stated the very ballpark technique I mentioned in his book Drywall: Professional Techniques for Great Results on page 18, and then said: "I use this method to give a rough estimate over the phone, for example."
We do a lot of bath remodels and face lifts. 25 in 2006 and around 35 in 2007. I wouldn't put a price on a bath remodel without seeing it, ever. There are just too many variables. A bath tub can cost $100 to 5k easy. Tile can cost 50 cents each up to $20 each. And without talking with the homeowner and getting a clear picture visually of what they want and you are up against as far as condition of the existing bath I don't know how you would even guess a price.
I'm glad that someone with a business like your's is willing to share his experience. Perhaps you cannot guess a price. What, though, if a homeowner called wanting a bath remodel, but not knowing if they could afford it asked; "How much does the average mid-range bath remodel usually cost?" Couldn't you ask them what neighborhood they lived in and then tell them "Usually somewhere between $$ thousand and $$ thousand," so that they could get a hold of their budget?
Now, once I have seen the existing bath and have chatted with the client if they are using standard materials I can do a price sitting there at their table in 10 minutes. But blindly I wouldn't be willing to do that. And I know my product and know how to make money at it.
I'm guessing you are either speaking of a ballpark price, or you specialize in kitchen and bath remodels. Otherwise (with the limited knowledge I have about estimating), I really don't see how it's possible to do that accurately in 10 minutes.
The other issue is the people factor. I once quoted a price in the newspaper in an add. Worst mistake I ever made. People would have you come out and flash the add and that price. Make 3-6 changes. You increase the price to match the upgraded material and to a person they said you were trying to take advantage of them. The add clearly stated that material changes would probably cost more but that didn't matter.
Thanks for sharing that experience, but I would never even think of putting a price like that in writing unless there were no changes allowed.
Stating a price over the phone I think is a mistake unless you are simply trying to thin the heard and weed out the folks unwilling to spend at your level. Also by stating a price over the phone you lose the opportunity to sell yourself and your product. Granted you wind up with a few flyers but that is true in our business no matter how hard you try to avoid it.
Well, what if you are trying to "weed out the folks unwilling to spend at your level?" I can understand a customer not wanting to reveal how much money they have, it makes you feel like your buying from a used car salesman. I'd just like to help develop a realistic view of their budget. BTW, what are "flyers?"-T
"Myron Ferguson stated the very ballpark technique I mentioned in his book Drywall: Professional Techniques for Great Results on page 18, and then said: "I use this method to give a rough estimate over the phone, for example.""
Myron only does drywall. Big difference in doing a single trade vs a remodel of a room, kitchen or bath. If you want a phone price range on painting a room I can do that but I assumed from your conversation you were talking about multi trade remodels.
"How much does the average mid-range bath remodel usually cost?" Couldn't you ask them what neighborhood they lived in and then tell them "Usually somewhere between $$ thousand and $$ thousand," so that they could get a hold of their budget?"
A few months ago a client called for a bath remodel. Went to her modest, middle class older house to view the bath. If I were to guess I would ball park the neighborhood at 5-10k for a bathroom remodel of the description she provided over the phone. 18k later we finished the bath. Lots of tile, new wood work. Much nicer bath than that house should have had IMO. But she inherited some money and they had lived in the house for 30 years so she decided to have the bath of her dreams. There is simply no way to account for that. And no way to tell when it will happen.
5 years ago we did a multi bath face lift in a very nice home in a very exclusive area of our town. 3 and half bath house with a full 2nd story master suite, lots of great built ins, super trim and flooring. Kind of house that makes you glad to go to work.
The material and work list went like this: Paint the rooms, leave the tile. Don't change the tub or shower faucets, they will do. Install new vanities and tops, 2nd cheapest ones that Lowes had in stock. Custom order faucets, nickel finish that literally cost more than the vanity they were sitting on. Grout the tile but only where needed because who really notices if it doesn't match. Replace the toilets with lower line models. Paint the ceilings, "seems like a waste since they are white already but if you think we should we will go with that extra".
My point again, you simply can't tell by address or over the phone. A flyer is just a family taught slang for someone that is putting you on. Bad term for a forum.
The way I can do a quote in 10 minutes is that with the amount of bathrooms we do I developed (Thanks to my friend Bob Kovacs suggestion) an installed price list for most commonly requested bathroom items. I just go down the list and their I have it. Most guys here talk of going for the high end custom clients. Nothing wrong with that and we have a few. But I found in my small market that a lot of guys went after those few clients. We have built a business of going after the middle/upper middle clients with strong service and great warranty work if needed. We are not so much craftsman but high quality installers of others products. DanT
You have your terminology all back-aswards, beyond that your entire post is filled with ####...
An estimate is just that, it estimates how much time and how much labor it will take, a bid or quote is usually taken as a solid number for a given scope of work that will not change so long as the scope does not change.
An estimate is one of the things that separates the contractor from the wannabe. It is an itemized list of what you propose to do for the bid price.
You are talking about a proposal, and most "professionals" will agree you do not itemize a proposal.
Maybe it's a regional terminology thing, but what I really think it is, is you're full of #### and don't belong in the big leagues... Try playing ball with the farm teams for a while.
should be enough to preserve cash flow as well as eliminate tire kickers.
You're kidding right? You want to use 35-50 dollar fees to preserve your cash flow? There are a lot of good reasons to charge for a detailed proposal but "preserving cash flow" has to rank on the bottom of the list. And the price you're suggesting is only going to scare away the cheapest of people.
You constantly try to portray yourself as some sort of expert here, in reality you're not even close.
You might "flame" me beyond "breaktime belief" but I just had to be brutally honest.<!----><!---->
You might "flame" me beyond "breaktime belief" but I just had to be brutally honest.
Why would I flame you? I have no reason to flame you because you are not simply attacking me but you actually have something to say. I will reply shortly, but right now I'm on a tight schedule.<!----><!----><!----><!---->-T
You have your terminology all back . . . wards,
That may be partially true. I thought it might be a little off, and I was planning on starting a thread about the differences between a "quote" and a "bid," as well as a "contract" and a "proposal." If this goes anywhere, you may have saved me the trouble.
beyond that your entire post is filled with ####...
That is interesting, since my post was mostly filled with paraphrases from expert sources. Allow me to demonstrate. . .
"An estimate is one of the things that separates the contractor from the wannabe. It is an itemized list of what you propose to do for the bid price."
An estimate is just that, it estimates how much time and how much labor it will take . . .
I don't dispute that.
You are talking about a proposal, and most "professionals" will agree you do not itemize a proposal.
Are you saying I'm talking about a proposal, simply because I used the word "proposal?" I agree (at least until someone demonstrates to me otherwise) that you don't itemize a proposal, that's why I'm calling it an estimate.
As to whether you itemize an estimate or not, David Gerstel answers this question in his book Running a Successful Construction Company on page 83: "Those of us who develop cost records enjoy another advantage. We position ourselves to charge for our preconstruction services as well as our construction work. We have something tangible to offer during preconstruction . . . You can learn to get paid for it rather that pump out all your estimating work for free." -Emphasis (bold) mine.
Yes, I realize that cost records are not the same as an estimate. What I'm saying is that he provides something tangible he can charge for. If you doubt that this tangible thing is an itemized estimate, simply look at the examples in his book - that's the way he does it. It might not be the way you do it, but it is the way David Gerstel (who wrote the book on Running a Successful Construction Company by The Taunton Press) does it.
a bid or quote is usually taken as a solid number for a given scope of work that will not change so long as the scope does not change.
Well, you got me there. I should have said "rough estimate" or "ballpark" instead of "quote." Thanks for the clarification. The reason I called such a rough estimate over the phone a "quote," was because I was a little confused after reading the book "Construction Forms and Contracts," which contained a form entitled "Telephone Quotation." After re-examining it now, I can see that it verifies what you say in this regard. Apparently it's a form designed to record a quotation of a subcontractor's bid. From examining the explanation for this form, as well as the forms "Quotation," and "Fax Quotation," it appears that the difference between a bid and a quote is that a quote can be only part of a bid or even just a price for materials. Is this correct?
Maybe it's a regional terminology thing, but what I really think it is, is you're full of #### and don't belong in the big leagues... Try playing ball with the farm teams for a while.
I wasn't aware that I had to be part of the "big leagues" to participate in this forum. We will see what it is I'm full of when I'm done with this post.
"should be enough to preserve cash flow as well as eliminate tire kickers."
You're kidding right? You want to use 35-50 dollar fees to preserve your cash flow? There are a lot of good reasons to charge for a detailed proposal but "preserving cash flow" has to rank on the bottom of the list. And the price you're suggesting is only going to scare away the cheapest of people.
No, I'm not kidding. A $20 charge was what was suggested in The Journal of Light Construction to discourage tire-kickers. (March 2007 "End of the Free Estimate") One of the reasons given was gas money, which I mentioned as a direct cost of estimating. BTW, all of the professionals that Huck mentioned who don't give free estimates when he was on his "roll," were all mentioned in the first paragraph of this article - whether he realizes it or not.
You constantly try to portray yourself as some sort of expert here, in reality you're not even close.
I really don't know what you are talking about. If I have ever promoted myself as any kind of expert, it would only be somewhat of an expert in carpentry. As a journeyman carpenter I have that right. However, I have often accepted the advice of others on this forum even when it comes to building. Most of those same people can benefit from my knowledge of building as well sometimes if they are really honest with themselves.
As far as being a business expert, I have never claimed to be that. I have openly admitted to not being in business right now and have often enlisted the help of others on this forum to create a successful construction company. At times I may try to help in what I can on the business forum simply out of a since of obligation to contribute, and sometimes I may even do so if it means entertaining a hijack, but you have me pegged all wrong. The only thing I'm trying to do is learn, and contribute something to the exchange in the processes.-T
There may be some confusion over "itemize". To one person it may mean "27 squares shingles, three rolls ice shield, 220 feet drip edge" (just pulling numbers out of my a**), while to another it means "brand x style y shingles installed, with ice shield for the first 6 feet, all new drip edge".The customer doesn't need the former, but he's a fool to not demand the latter in a contract.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
"As to whether you itemize an estimate or not, David Gerstel answers this question in his book Running a Successful Construction Company on page 83: "Those of us who develop cost records enjoy another advantage. We position ourselves to charge for our preconstruction services as well as our construction work. We have something tangible to offer during preconstruction . . . You can learn to get paid for it rather that pump out all your estimating work for free.""What kind of "something tangible" can you give me for $35.I will take all that you have..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
journey... bill has a good point
$25.... $35.... for preparing a Proposal ?
what good is that ?
depending on the scope.. i typically charge $500 to $3000 to prepare a Propsal
that's without any design fee...
if it's a straighforward job, and i can identify my costs easily.. i will probably not charge for the Proposal....IE: sometimes i do... and sometimes i don't
but most of the time i find that i am the only bidder.. so i'm not really risking much
another point... sometimes they balk and decide they don't want to pay my fee for preparing a Proposal... i keep track of those jobs.. most of them never got built..
ie.. they weren't willing to invest in the job with me... and they really weren't in love with building the job anyways... most of the ones that do not go forward wind up selling their homes
they found out one way or another that they didn't want to invest in their existing house.... so ... suppose i had done the work of preparing the Proposal without a fee
i'd be out 40 to 100 hours.. and the job never got built.. i was better off asking for my fee and being refusedMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I found your last post very interesting, and I wanted to reply sooner, but it's been a rather busy weekend. Anyway, I’d like nothing more than to get “$500 to $3,000 (without a design fee) to prepare a proposal.†However, how long do you think a contractor would have to be in business (and also what area would he have to live in) to make that happen?<!----><!----><!---->
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Nobody, and I mean nobody around here charges for an estimate or proposal except the nearest home center which is a ½ hours drive away. Even if I were to target the city I travel to work for in the union (1 hours drive away), there would still be almost nobody, and I mean almost nobody that charges for an estimate or proposal except the local home centers that charge about $35.<!----><!---->
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I remember telling a friend who wanted an estimate, just before I closed shop, that I’ve learned to charge for estimates now. He snarled at me, and said: “I can get anyone ells to come and give me an estimate for free.†Free estimates are so common around here that most contractors have stopped advertising for them because it’s become like advertising an all natural banana. Everyone around here expects an estimate to be free just as much as they expect a banana to be natural.<!----><!---->
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Can you imagine what would happen if I were to start a construction company today and begin by charging $500 to prepare a proposal? I’ll probably get my first job in the year 2020! I don’t even want to think about what would happen to me if I tried to charge $3000 to prepare a proposal, I’d probably be tar and feathered!<!----><!---->
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After the JLC article “End of the Free Estimate†came out, I created a post in the JLC online forum about how to determine the amount to charge for an estimate. Nobody answered my question, so I came up with the answer I posted in this thread and nobody disputed it – although it was somewhat applauded.<!----><!---->
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That led to believe one or two things: Either I had found a rather accurate method of determining what to charge for an estimate, or; nobody really knows what to charge for an estimate. They figure out what works for them, with their business, in their location, targeting their specific market, every time using the method of years of trial and error. What is more, by the time they figure it out, they’ve been in business for so long, that not only are the numbers they use unique to their business/location/market, but those numbers would be completely useless to even their own business if they had been starting it anew.<!----><!---->
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I hope I’m wrong about this, I really do, but so far NOBODY has been able to give me substantial advice on how to figure a price to charge for a proposal.<!----><!---->-T
Just to be clear about some of my comments.I won't pay a penny for an estimate. If I pay for something I want something of VALUE to ME.An estiamte that says that it will cost $23,412.78 for a kitchen remodel is has no value to em.what I would pay for is a DETAILED PROPOSAL, which might include some design work.That proposal is now mine, I paid for it and can use it as I want..
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A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
I've read about charging for our estimating time and writing proposals also. But like you, I live and work in a community where that NEVER happens. We have always been a depressed area in comparison to the rest of the state - and now the rest of the state is in crisis also.
However, I feel strongly the "free bid" system has been and is being grossly abused. Its hard for me to feel any compassion for homeowners who come here and whine about contractors who don't return their phone calls, or don't come up with their bids, when I can sit here and type up bids and return phone calls all day long seven days a week (yep, they call me on weekends too, and get pi$$ed at me if I tell them I can look at their job on Monday), just to watch the jobs I bid go to lowball bootleg contractors who are avoiding overhead by avoiding the law.
Or they just needed a written bid to submit to their insurance, so they can keep the check and do a shoddy job themselves. Or they just never do the work at all - they just wanted to pull a contractors chain to get me to put a couple hundred dollars of unpaid research into satisfying their curiosity on a whim.
From my standpoint, my bids are not high - they just barely cover the cost of doing business. I pay my workers. I pay my subs and my suppliers. I cover my overhead costs and just barely have two nickels to rub together after that. Yet I am consistently high bidder, or in the upper range.
A typical (for this area) and very successful contractor I did some work for ran his job this way: Immigrant workers were being paid $8-$10 an hour, and then living on his property and paying him rent. He was a 'get in your face and scream at you in the most demeaning way possible' type of employer. Often his guys worked 12 hour days, then got drunk, urinated all over the jobsite, and often even slept on the jobsite. Don't get me wrong - I place no blame on these guys, who were mostly hard workers trying to better their lives, imprisoned in an abusive situation. I don't judge them, because I would probably have to drink to cope with that myself.
They were stretched way beyond their technical capabilities - meaning most the time they didn't know what the he!! they were doing. The work was shoddy, the jobsite in total chaos, the workers were often fighting with each other to climb up his little self-made internal pecking order, and he eventually was run off the job. Did you recall I said he is very successful? Has a fleet of shiny new vans and trucks, built a vacation mansion in Mexico, huge ads in the yellow pages.
Another very successful stucco/drywall contractor I know operates on virtually the same business model.
It is so difficult for a legitimate contractor to compete in this 'bootleg' economy, and this preposterous "free bid" system literally sucks us dry. The Big Box stores seem to be taking over the remodel market here. And they are advertsing locally for lowball contractors to do their work for them. I've seen some of their jobs - the quality varies from acceptable to pure cr*p. There are very few, if any, sizeable residential remodeling contractors in this town, that I'm aware of. They just don't exist. Oh yeah, there's one kitchen remodel franchise, I don't know how they're doing.
I have begun to work more on getting government contracts. The advantage there is that you have to be licensed bonded and insured to even bid their work. You have to be able to get a bid bond, a performance bond, and a payment bond, which means your finances have to be in order. So far I have only won two small bids for the county. But I'm learning the ins and outs of bidding city jobs, and plan to expand into bidding state jobs eventually. Otherwise, I will let my workers go, let my office helper go, and go back to cutting in doggie doors and fixing leaky faucets to people who complain that I sure do charge a lot.
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Edited 1/20/2008 11:49 pm by Huck
huck... who u shiddin ?
i bet u could talk a dog off a meat wagon ... so..
i bet you could sell a Proposal fee if you tried
i do know that we've been talking about Proposal Fees here for about 4 - 5 years
Sonny used to talk at length about them..
i've heard from many that it won't work where they do business
but i also know that some here decided to try it when they saw the opportunity
they had enough success to change the way they did business
maybe some will come forward and tell us about their quest for the holy grail
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/21/2008 1:41 am ET by MikeSmith
I'm leaning in that direction. But unlike you and Sonny, I get nearly zero work from return customers, and nearly zero from referrals. People here just don't remodel to that extent. I'm almost completely dependent on cold calls from new customers, all of whom are getting free bids from other contractors. I've definitely scaled back on the time and energy committed to a project before I get it, but that's about the extent of the progress I've made.
I hang on every word you and Sonny write, and you guys have opened my eyes to many things. But its an extremely tough market here, and I don't think you or Sonny would believe it until you came here and experienced it for yourselves. Just not sure the same rules would apply here.
I had one customer (who I gave a firm bid price to) call and say he wanted my bid in writing. I said Look, I came and measured and figured and worked up a bid. You have my price. If you give me the verbal assurance that I'm hired, I'll write up a detailed proposal as our contract. Or I'll do it right now, for $50, refundable if you hire me. His response: If you won't put your bid in writing FOR FREE, I won't consider it. Fine with me, #$7hole. (See how upsetting this whole thing is to me?)
As always, I'm open to learning.
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Edited 1/21/2008 2:56 am by Huck
well... the showing up is step one.... as you know
but...... the first visit is free.. that's where you sell yourself... one shot
if it's an easy figure, you can offer to write the Proposal for free.. but you still need a commitment from them.... some time out of their life
you are giving twice.. once when you go for the job site interview... and 2d when you prepare the Proposal..
they have to give you something in return.. some more of their time..
IE: never phone or mail it in... hand deliver and ask for a commitment...let them read it.. when they're ready to sign ... they can keep their Original... no commitment... no paper... they want the paper.. believe me.. especially if it's got all the terms & conditions on it
time is as valuable to most as it is to you.... make them pay in time
OR.... if it's a complicated job that's going to take say, 10 or more hours... tell them so ( not the 10 hours ... don't use time )... me i say ( 10 x $30 = $300 ).... "I'll write up a Proposal for you for $300....."
if they want step two ... they have to give you $300... you can also use it as a test..
say "$300 ... half now, balance when i deliver the Proposal"
you're gonna be surprised how many will agree... if you have sold yourself in the first meetingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
well.... i decided about 15 years ago to stop buying jobs and start selling them
first of all... i actually had a track record... you know.. like 20 houses i had built
numerous kitchens & baths remodeled
roofs ... siding... garages .. additions
so.. it wasn't like i had anything to prove
i remember one ... big victorian remodel..... for a real estate agency owner... i spent about 2 months ( say 100 hours) developing the proposal.. i knew my costs..
and she wanted me to do the job... but they decided not to invest that kind of money in the project.. so they sold it.... bought a new waterfront lot closer to town... and designed and built a new house.. never asked me to bid
so........
when i thought back on that ... i knew... if i had asked for $3000 to prepare the proposal.. they could have said yes..... or no... if yes.. i had the job... if no... i saved 100 hours of my life to devote to somethjing else
next time...another customer, big new house.. they liked my act.. but wouldn't pay $3000 for me to prepare the proposal ( and meet with their architect, etc )
that house never got built... but they did screw around with some other builders
next time.... another house... didn't want to pay my fee.... they got another builder... and a year later they broke ground..... wonder how many hours he had into thjat before they signed
so... here's the secret... you're selling yourself... your price can be $25... or $500.... or $3000
if you make the sale on yourself... you've got the job... so.. if i make the $3000 sale.. they've bought into me and my company... a month later , when i've prepared my proposal... they've already invested in me... we already have a arelationship..
my propsal is pretty thorough but it does not break down prices, one price..
it usually has a schedule of Allowances, specifications, and a Payment Schedule..
some ask me to break down my price, but that was never part of the deal.... breaking down prices is just an invitation to negotiate price.... i don't negotiate price
i treat my customers fair... but i know that some items are going to be profitable... and some i'll lose money on... i will make money on the whole .. but not if i negotaite the parts
what i've found is that it's better for me to make my sales up front ... not on the back end... if i can sell peparing the Proposal... selling the job is a foregone conclusion
so..... if you sell a proosal for $25 or $50... what do they have invested in you ?
can they affford to lose it ? ( you bet ) if they have $500, $1000, $3000 invested in you..... what are they going to do when you present our Proposal ?
they are going to ask you when you can start...
now...... sometimes it is just not going to work .. so i make exceptions
like.. if my kitchen designer brings me in on a job.... and one or two others... i will compete head to head.... no fee... but those customers are Pre-qualified... i've got an inside track... high percentage of closing success
also... don't forget... unless they have an architect.... we do in-housed design... so i have a leg up on the other contractors who don't have design availability
i can slide in design sketches to help make my sale... but i never leave them with customers unless i have their money
and if they have no plans..... i can do the plans, for a fee....
if we do the design , it includes our Proposal... but the design fee is higher than just a Proposal fee... and the design is for us to build from only... not for some other company to build from
complicated, ain't it ?
and ...lemme just add... i've always heard the bit about how charging for proposals won't work where you live... where ever that is
what make you think so ?.. because people run adds that say "free estimates " ?
what is a "free estimate" ?
and do you think that customers really have a clue as to how we as builders , actually do business ?
do builders actually know how we do business ?.... heck no... why do you think they go to seminars at trade shows... and hang out here... and read books...
there is no one business model for what we do...
there are a lot of bad business models for what we do.... but why would we want to emulate them ?
reinvent yourself.. get your courage up.... look for an opportunity.... then ask for a real Proposal fee... don't forget.. if you sell the Proposal, you've probably sold the job
now... trick question: what do you say if they ask you if you give a credit to the job for your Proposal fee ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
and don't worry, you ain't gonna get a dime out of Bill.. we've already established that he won't hire me...
thankfully there are a lot of other customers out there.. some are gonna love doing business with youMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
what do you say if they ask you if you give a credit to the job for your Proposal fee ?<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I’m guessing you say yes, not because it’s really a credit, but because you hide the amount of the proposal fee in your bid. The home centers do that. You pay for the estimate, but it’s “refundable†if you use them for your project.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I see you offer quite a bit of preconstruction services. The preconstruction services I’m familiar with are:<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
Consultation<!----><!---->
Estimate<!----><!---->
Itemized Bid (Even if the prices are not itemized)<!----><!---->
Proposal<!----><!---->
Cost Planning<!----><!---->
Design<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
Are there any other preconstruction services besides these?<!----><!---->-T
<<<<
what do you say if they ask you if you give a credit to the job for your Proposal fee ?<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I’m guessing you say yes, not because it’s really a credit, but because you hide the amount of the proposal fee in your bid. The home centers do that. You pay for the estimate, but it’s “refundable†if you use them for your project>>>
i'm always tempted to do that... but to this date i just explain that people who do that just add it into the cost of the project, then issue a credit... which really isn't a credit
preconstruction svcs:
Consultation<!----><!---->
Estimate<!----><!---->
Itemized Bid (Even if the prices are not itemized)<!----><!---->
Proposal<!----><!---->
Cost Planning<!----><!---->
Design<!----><!---->
to that list you can also offer permitting and representation before zoning & planning boards, conservation commissions, etc
and under consultation ..... pre-purchase review before people buy property
keep an open mind and a helpful attitude.... it's amazing the many different ways you can sell your services..... and help people out
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/21/2008 11:19 pm ET by MikeSmith
I got to thinking today how much time it might’ve taken to write your last post (#183). I don’t know if you can pull stuff like that off the top of your head, but thanks for taking the time to explain your system for pricing proposals. It clarifies a lot.<!----><!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I’ve been trying to break your system down, but it took some time for it all to soak in.<!----><!---->
first of all... i actually had a track record... you know.. like 20 houses i had built<!----><!---->
numerous kitchens & baths remodeled<!----><!---->
roofs ... siding... garages .. additions<!----><!---->
so.. it wasn't like i had anything to prove<!----><!---->
From this statement I gather that the price of a proposal may very well be “free†until you establish a track record.<!----><!---->
i remember one ... big victorian remodel..... for a real estate agency owner... i spent about 2 months ( say 100 hours) developing the proposal.. i knew my costs..<!----><!---->
and she wanted me to do the job... but they decided not to invest that kind of money in the project.. so they sold it.... bought a new waterfront lot closer to town... and designed and built a new house.. never asked me to bid<!----><!---->
so........<!----><!---->
when i thought back on that ... i knew... if i had asked for $3000 to prepare the proposal.. they could have said yes..... or no... if yes.. i had the job... if no... i saved 100 hours of my life to devote to somethjing else<!----><!---->
Looking at what you said here, it seems that a proposal fee should be an investment in the job the homeowner makes, and a high enough investment to ensure that they’ve already decided to have you do the job.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Simple records should reveal what this amount would be in a short time, but from the numbers you used here, it seems it could be (depending on how much a builder made in Rhode Island 15 years ago) either your hourly base rate, or your base rate + labor burden (overhead and profits are excluded) for the hours you’ll probably spend preparing that particular proposal.<!----><!---->
now...... sometimes it is just not going to work .. so i make exceptions<!----><!---->
like.. if my kitchen designer brings me in on a job.... and one or two others... i will compete head to head.... no fee... but those customers are Pre-qualified... i've got an inside track... high percentage of closing success<!----><!---->
I’m not exactly sure what it means to have ‘your kitchen designer bring you in on a job and one or two others,’ and I’m not exactly sure why that pre-qualifies those customers. <!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
However, by examining this statement, I take it that it can be a good business practice to prepare a proposal for free if the customer is very likely to use you for the job anyway. But, does that mean that you don’t charge a proposal fee for customers that have done business with you before?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
if we do the design , it includes our Proposal... but the design fee is higher than just a Proposal fee... and the design is for us to build from only... not for some other company to build from<!----><!---->
So if you offer design service, then the design price should include the price of the proposal.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Am I catching on?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Well, I guess that covers figuring a price for a proposal fee. Thanks again for clarifying that.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
<!----> <!---->
_____<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
I am, however, still unclear about one thing, especially after your comments to Huck. Do you charge for estimates? Let me clarify what I mean by that:<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
When you go out and look at a prospective job site to give an estimate – whether that estimate be a rough ballpark estimate, or an estimate that quotes a price on the spot (like DanT’s example), or simply an estimate for the price of a proposal (in the case of a more complicated job) – after you pre-qualify a customer on the phone, when you go out and visit a potential customer for the first time (although I’m curious as to repeat customers as well) to “estimate†(survey) the job, do you ever charge for that?<!----><!---->-T
journey
<<<
like.. if my kitchen designer brings me in on a job.... and one or two others... i will compete head to head.... no fee... but those customers are Pre-qualified... i've got an inside track... high percentage of closing success<!----><!---->
I’m not exactly sure what it means to have ‘your kitchen designer bring you in on a job and one or two others,’ and I’m not exactly sure why that pre-qualifies those customers. >>>
that means that she stuck her neck out by recommending me and one or two others of her regular builders... so... in the eyes of the customer.. we were pre-qualified..
the kitchen designer that was going to sell them $30,000 worth of cabinets.... was not recommending every tom , dick & harry... it was a select list
..... and they had already proven that they were willing to spend some serious money
and... it was obvious to me that they were going to be looking for a quality job
so... i was willing to gamble on that one... and i won the gamble... we're half way thru the job now<!----><!---->Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
journey...
<<<<<
When you go out and look at a prospective job site to give an estimate – whether that estimate be a rough ballpark estimate, or an estimate that quotes a price on the spot (like DanT’s example), or simply an estimate for the price of a proposal (in the case of a more complicated job) – after you pre-qualify a customer on the phone, when you go out and visit a potential customer for the first time (although I’m curious as to repeat customers as well) to “estimate†(survey) the job, do you ever charge for that?>>>>
we don't do "estimates".. when i go out for the initial job site visit... i am there to listen, look over the scope of their work, look at the conditions of the job.... sell myself and our company... and advise them as to the next step if they want us....
most people do not have plans.... so .. i tell them we will draw the plans, write the specs and prepare our Proposal for a fee... then i tell them what the fee is
and that i will return with a Design Proposal... which will spell out the terms of the Design Contract... i have a blank sample one so they know what they are getting into
if there are no plans, the job is simple, and i am confident that this is a probable sale
i tell them i will get back to the with a Proposal... and i usually set a time for 3 - 4 days away... i return with the Proposal, , we sit down and review it , and i expect them to sign and accept, and give me a deposit to bind the contract
if there are no plans, and the job doesn't require plans, but it is complicated and will require say 10 hours of my time ... i tell them i will prepare a Proposal for X-amount of money...... i ask for half of the Proposal fee and the balance when i deliver the Proposal
if there are plans, by someone else, but it is a complicated job and is going to take me a lot of time... then i am going to get a propsal fee in the range of say $3000
my Proposal fees have run from $400 to $3000
and i usually get them when i ask for them
and i usually get the job when i present my Proposal
below $400 it is probably not worthwhile for me to seek a Proposal fee
and the rate has nothing to do with our labor rate..... it is more or less $30/ hour
.... our labor rate for everyone is $45
so the $30 involves a discount to share the risk with the customer that they might not hire me when i present the Proposal
i never say that this is my rate... i just say $400.... or $500.... or $1200
or $2000 or $3000..... it is always an amount that they will not gladly part with... they will only give it to me if i've sold myself and they think that this is going to work out
so .... getting the Proposal fee is really part of getting the job
i know pretty fast if this is going to be worthwhile or not....
and all they have to do is check my references and they should know if we're the company for them
here's the alternative ....from my past..
we meet... we talk... they say we'd like a Proposal ( estimate, bid, quotation, whatever it was called ).... i come back the next day, take measurements, call my suppliers, my subs, make site visits, do some estimating.... assemble my costs, figure my overhead & profit
i devote say, 40 hours of my life to this, while i'm neglecting other things like paying jobs, or customers that might have hired us, or golf, or visiting our daughter... you name it.... it's 40 hours invested in a POSSIBLE job
i call them up , we meet, i present my Proposal, they say they'll think about it..
and that 's the end of that
i like the pre-sell way better... i either keep the 40 hours , or they pay me to devote the 40 hours to them
where do you draw the line ?... where do i draw the line ?....... i guess it depends on wether they are pre-qualified or not... and the scope of the work
previous customer... sometimes they get a freebie... but probably not
a referral .... maybe
a small job that i can price in two hours ?
maybe......
but i'm not doing the 40 hour gig for anyone unless i get paid
and the small ones build your confidnece that you can actually get paid for your Proposal.. and that your Proposal has value to the right customer
and no value to the wrong customer
were you really going to sell the job to the wrong customer ? don't know
<!----><!---->Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks. That helps a lot.
I'm glad you won the kitchen, although I'm not surprised.-T
Very well laid out message.
I am surprised your company only charges 45 per hour for labor though. Seems low given your location in the Upper East Coast.
Must be a terminology thing - I look at it as just the opposite. When someone gives me an "estimate", I look at it as an educated guess.
To me, a "quote" is a hard number, having the same meaning as "bid".
Don
Around here, an ESTIMATE is a guess, a ballpark figure. A PROPOSAL is just that. I propose to do this work for that amount.http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
Works like that around here too.
And a bid is on what you are asking me to do.
Except we in Ohio don't sleep with our relation.
Kinda' the same but just different after hours.
;/Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Except we in Ohio don't sleep with our relation.
Next time you see your mother tell her I said "Hi".
"cept you might not recognize her. She asked me to shave her.
;/http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
Izzat you Grandpa?Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
t.... sheesh... good olde English will tell you this is not a true statement :
<<<
99048.129 in reply to 99048.122
I think you are greatly misunderstanding what I mean by quote as compared to an estimate.
Example of quote:
A homeowner calls and wants to know how much it would be to drywall a room. I tell him I'll give him a rough idea (quote) if he gives me the square feet of the room and the height of it's walls. I then use a multiplier to find the approximate square feet of wall in the room. Then I multiply the approximate square feet by my average drywall job's square foot cost. That is a quote.
A "quote" is non-binding and is explained as only a rough idea so they can determine their budget. If a customer wants an actual accurate and binding "estimate," they'll have to pay for it.>>>>
neither of those is an example of a firm price..... but a "quote" is a lot closer to afirm price than an "estimate"
a " quote" is short for " quotation"... ususally used when discussing sub-contracts
or when getting prices from a lumber yard
part of your discussion with a potential custoerm is educating them on the differences
do you intend to give them a "Fixed Price Contract".. then you are giveing them a Propsal for a "Fixed Price Contract "
if they accept your Proposal, and you both sign the contract .. then you have a "Fixed Price Contract".... the only thing that can change the bottom line on a fixed price contract is a "Change Order"
a CO can be an ADD or a CREDIT.. and it can effect the "completion date " besides the price
so... IF you want to be a stickler for terms.. then you should read some books about construction contract law
the public thinks like this :
i want some work done on my house... so .. the gurus tell me i need three estimates
so they ask dumb-azz "contractors" for estimates... but as estimate is just that .. it's an estimate.. some are good, some are bad.. some are detailed... some havea a basis in reality
if you want to know how much something is going to cost you ask for a PRICE..
adn the specifications will describe what the Owner is going to get for that PRICE
but hey, whadda i no ?
ironic , ain't it ? i'm talking about gud english & i can't even speel right
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 1/16/2008 3:43 pm ET by MikeSmith
First of all, thanks for the clarification regarding a proposal in comparison to a contract.<!----><!----><!---->
do you intend to give them a "Fixed Price Contract".. then you are giveing them a Propsal for a "Fixed Price Contract "<!----><!---->
if they accept your Proposal, and you both sign the contract .. then you have a "Fixed Price Contract"<!----><!---->
What you’re saying makes since, but I wanted to be sure:<!----><!---->
‘When you propose a deal to a customer, the written offer is a proposal. When they sign that deal, the proposed written offer becomes the contract.’<!----><!---->
BTW, after reviewing the contents for contracts in the book Construction Forms and Contracts, I noticed that there are contracts provided for a “Proposal,†a “Remodeling Proposal,†a “Fixed Fee Itemized Proposal,†a “Time and Material Proposal,†and a “Time and Material Itemized Proposal.†I bring this up for the sake of others who might not realize that contractors itemize proposals. Apparently sometimes they do.<!----><!---->
One of the things that confused me before is that there is also a “Prime Construction Contract†in the contents for contracts. After reading your definition of a proposal, one particular phrase jumped out at me when I went back and re-read the instructions for the “Prime Construction Contract:â€<!----><!---->
“On smaller jobs, the proposal becomes the contract when it’s signed by the owner. But for larger, more complex jobs, you’ll need a longer, more detailed and technical contract – like this one.â€<!----><!---->
That statement leads me to believe that a proposal is also usually a short contract for smaller uncomplicated jobs. Would you agree with this?<!----><!---->
_____<!----><!---->
“. . . only a rough idea so they can determine their budget. If a customer wants an actual accurate and binding "estimate," they'll have to pay for it.â€<!----><!---->
neither of those is an example of a firm price..... but a "quote" is a lot closer to afirm price than an "estimate"<!----><!---->
a " quote" is short for " quotation"... ususally used when discussing sub-contracts<!----><!---->
or when getting prices from a lumber yard<!----><!---->
First, although I have come to understand that a quote is NOT a rough estimate or ballpark, I don't understand why a quote wouldn't be a firm price, unless of course you are simply saying it is a firm PART of that TOTAL firm price.<!----><!---->
but as estimate is just that .. it's an estimate . . .<!----><!---->
the public thinks like this :<!----><!---->
i want some work done on my house... so .. the gurus tell me i need three estimates<!----><!---->
so they ask dumb-### "contractors" for estimates... but as estimate is just that .. it's an estimate.. some are good, some are bad.. some are detailed... some havea a basis in reality<!----><!---->
Well, what kind of estimate do you think a real contractor should CHARGE for? For example, David Gerstel in his introduction to his chapter on “Estimating and Bidding†says:<!----><!---->
“Estimating is not the rough, vague process that the term, and its rough cousin, “guesstimating†can imply. Capable builders do not roughly estimate/guesstimate the costs they submit to clients. They calculate the costs. They figure the charges. They nail down those numbers and get them right!â€<!----><!---->
so... IF you want to be a stickler for terms.. then you should read some books about construction contract law<!----><!---->
I wasn’t trying to be a stickler; I was simply trying to clarify what I was trying to say.<!----><!---->
if you want to know how much something is going to cost you ask for a PRICE..<!----><!---->
adn the specifications will describe what the Owner is going to get for that PRICE<!----><!---->
Can’t the PRICE also be the same thing as the BID?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
For example, Gerstel defines estimating in comparison with bidding this way:<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
“Estimating and bidding are not the same thing.†Estimating involves calculating the direct costs of building a project.†Bidding involves figuring markups for overhead and for profit and then adding the markups to direct costs to get a bid price. In other words, bidding includes estimating, but estimating does not include bidding.<!----><!---->
–Bold and italics mine.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Of course, I also re-read the instructions to the “Bid Form†that the book Construction Forms and Contracts (by Craig Savage and Karen Jones-Mitchell) presents on page 138. There it says that such a form is used to “show itemized costs†(italics mine) of “work to be done.â€<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Therefore, while I can see that “price†would be the most accurate term that would apply to all jobs, I also gather that a “bid†can either be a price for a job that’s out for bid (more specifically referred to as a bid price), or it can include an itemized list of work to be done with a price for each item and a bid price as the total.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Whether you charge for an estimate, a bid, an itemized proposal, or a lengthy contract with specifications, I think it should basically amount to the same thing. When you advertise you’re giving customers an estimate, it should be a number that will also be the bid price. And if you’re CHARGING for an estimate, that estimate should not only be the bid price, but it should also include (because I think the customer would usually expect it would include) at least a contract/proposal, but more preferably an itemized bid and (if accepted) a contract/proposal.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Thanks for helping me with this research. Feel free to tell me if you think anything needs to be clarified.<!----><!---->-T
In case that was too small for anyone:<!----><!----><!---->
First of all, thanks for the clarification regarding a proposal in comparison to a contract.<!----><!---->
do you intend to give them a "Fixed Price Contract".. then you are giveing them a Propsal for a "Fixed Price Contract "<!----><!---->
if they accept your Proposal, and you both sign the contract .. then you have a "Fixed Price Contract"<!----><!---->
What you’re saying makes since, but I wanted to be sure:<!----><!---->
‘When you propose a deal to a customer, the written offer is a proposal. When they sign that deal, the proposed written offer becomes the contract.’<!----><!---->
BTW, after reviewing the contents for contracts in the book Construction Forms and Contracts, I noticed that there are contracts provided for a “Proposal,†a “Remodeling Proposal,†a “Fixed Fee Itemized Proposal,†a “Time and Material Proposal,†and a “Time and Material Itemized Proposal.†I bring this up for the sake of others who might not realize that contractors itemize proposals. Apparently sometimes they do.<!----><!---->
One of the things that confused me before is that there is also a “Prime Construction Contract†in the contents for contracts. After reading your definition of a proposal, one particular phrase jumped out at me when I went back and re-read the instructions for the “Prime Construction Contract:â€<!----><!---->
“On smaller jobs, the proposal becomes the contract when it’s signed by the owner. But for larger, more complex jobs, you’ll need a longer, more detailed and technical contract – like this one.â€<!----><!---->
That statement leads me to believe that a proposal is also usually a short contract for smaller uncomplicated jobs. Would you agree with this?<!----><!---->
_____<!----><!---->
“. . . only a rough idea so they can determine their budget. If a customer wants an actual accurate and binding "estimate," they'll have to pay for it.â€<!----><!---->
neither of those is an example of a firm price..... but a "quote" is a lot closer to afirm price than an "estimate"<!----><!---->
a " quote" is short for " quotation"... ususally used when discussing sub-contracts<!----><!---->
or when getting prices from a lumber yard<!----><!---->
First, although I have come to understand that a quote is NOT a rough estimate or ballpark, I don't understand why a quote wouldn't be a firm price, unless of course you are simply saying it is a firm PART of that TOTAL firm price.<!----><!---->
but as estimate is just that .. it's an estimate . . .<!----><!---->
the public thinks like this :<!----><!---->
i want some work done on my house... so .. the gurus tell me i need three estimates<!----><!---->
so they ask dumb-### "contractors" for estimates... but as estimate is just that .. it's an estimate.. some are good, some are bad.. some are detailed... some havea a basis in reality<!----><!---->
Well, what kind of estimate do you think a real contractor should CHARGE for? For example, David Gerstel in his introduction to his chapter on “Estimating and Bidding†says:<!----><!---->
“Estimating is not the rough, vague process that the term, and its rough cousin, “guesstimating†can imply. Capable builders do not roughly estimate/guesstimate the costs they submit to clients. They calculate the costs. They figure the charges. They nail down those numbers and get them right!â€<!----><!---->
so... IF you want to be a stickler for terms.. then you should read some books about construction contract law<!----><!---->
I wasn’t trying to be a stickler; I was simply trying to clarify what I was trying to say.<!----><!---->
if you want to know how much something is going to cost you ask for a PRICE..<!----><!---->
adn the specifications will describe what the Owner is going to get for that PRICE<!----><!---->
Can’t the PRICE also be the same thing as the BID?<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
For example, Gerstel defines estimating in comparison with bidding this way:<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
“Estimating and bidding are not the same thing.†Estimating involves calculating the direct costs of building a project.†Bidding involves figuring markups for overhead and for profit and then adding the markups to direct costs to get a bid price. In other words, bidding includes estimating, but estimating does not include bidding.<!----><!---->
–Bold and italics mine.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Of course, I also re-read the instructions to the “Bid Form†that the book Construction Forms and Contracts (by Craig Savage and Karen Jones-Mitchell) presents on page 138. There it says that such a form is used to “show itemized costs†(italics mine) of “work to be done.â€<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Therefore, while I can see that “price†would be the most accurate term that would apply to all jobs, I also gather that a “bid†can either be a price for a job that’s out for bid (more specifically referred to as a bid price), or it can include an itemized list of work to be done with a price for each item and a bid price as the total.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Whether you charge for an estimate, a bid, an itemized proposal, or a lengthy contract with specifications, I think it should basically amount to the same thing. When you advertise you’re giving customers an estimate, it should be a number that will also be the bid price. And if you’re CHARGING for an estimate, that estimate should not only be the bid price, but it should also include (because I think the customer would usually expect it would include) at least a contract/proposal, but more preferably an itemized bid and (if accepted) a contract/proposal.<!----><!---->
<!----> <!---->
Thanks for helping me with this research. Feel free to tell me if you think anything needs to be clarified.<!----><!---->-T
well... your post is long.. so i'll break it up
<<<<
“On smaller jobs, the proposal becomes the contract when it’s signed by the owner. But for larger, more complex jobs, you’ll need a longer, more detailed and technical contract – like this one.â€<!----><!---->
That statement leads me to believe that a proposal is also usually a short contract for smaller uncomplicated jobs. Would you agree with this?<!----><!---->
_____>>>>
couple things... porposal is probably prepared by a "contractor" (cause that's what we do) presented to the Owner for acceptance.. they sign and it becomes a contract
but for larger , more complex jobs.. the contgract is probably prepared by othr professionals, like lawyers, architects , etc.. hired by the owner
usually the contractor is solicited by these professionals.. maybe with an RFP (Request for Proposals ) or they might just be solicited to bid on teh plans and specs
contracts might be 1 page, 6 pages, 20 pages , or 200 pages.. the more complex, the greater scope, the more money involved.. it goes on and on
most of our work involves one page Proposals that i prepare
sometimes it involves one page plus plans
or one page , plans, scedule of Allowances , and a payment schedule
or sometimes a 5 page contract and all of the above
i will usually not sign someone else's contract.... most of them are too onerous and designed to remove my rights as a builder...
all of my contracts include a mandatory Arbitration clause
<!----><!---->Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
2d....
<<<<
First, although I have come to understand that a quote is NOT a rough estimate or ballpark, I don't understand why a quote wouldn't be a firm price, unless of course you are simply saying it is a firm PART of that TOTAL firm price.>>>>
a quote is whatever the parties think it is... or decide what it WAS after troubles arise
when customers ask me for a quote.. i tell them we don't give quotes, and we don't give estimates
i will prepare a Proposal for a fixed price contract..
if it's a sub and we've dealt before.. we both know i'm looking for a fixed price.. that's what i get, that's what i pay.. unless the scope changes
i prepare the scope of work.. and it's clear enough so they know what they're giving me a price on<!----><!---->
.Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
3d....<<<<<Therefore, while I can see that “price†would be the most accurate term that would apply to all jobs>>>>
well.. if you see that.. then use it.. say "PRICE" don't say bid...
bids are formal processes.. usually by some entity.. maybe by an architect using an AIA form
the process might be''' RFP.. sent out to a selected list of bidders... a bid opening.... or like some unethical people do... they solicit bids and ue it to gain leveage from the company they really want to do teh work
but... in the useages understood by the public a "bid" is the same thing as an "estimate" and they think that both of these things are the same thing as a "price"
but , often as not.... they are not..
because.. the guy giving the "bid,estimate, or price"..never intends it to be a fixed price.. and he relies on the unsophisticated Owner to just go along when he gets into the job and says .." well, i need more money.. it's costing more than i thought"
"but i thought you gave me a price"....
NO, you asked for an "estimate"....
or .. NO, you asked for a "bid".....
or ... NO, you asked for a "Proposal".....
it doesn't matter what you call it.... unless it's a Fixed Price Contractor some other form of contract that spells out how costs /prices/ billing will be assesed to the job
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
4th......
ok.... pick up a weekly newspaper... go to the "service directory " part
look at the contractor ads..
now tell me what these things mean?
"free estimates"
"fully insured"
"lifetime warranty"
all three mean the same thing... they mean whatever the guy/gal writing the ad wants them to mean
now .. the bottom line is... it's up to you to educate your potential customers..
so.. you'd better educate yourself..stop using inadequate terms that convey unclear meanings
have samples of your contract/Proposal... think about what you want to bind yourself to.... and what you don't
are you going to bind yourself to a start date.. to a finish date ? your normal working times?
portajohns ? dumpsters ?
materials ... finishes ? what ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Well written post.
Your comments on the bidding made me realize a possible verbiage error. I was not asking for bids, but quotes. Although, after researching what is involved and receiving a few "quotes", I pretty much knew what the cost would be. In short, I was not looking for prices but "interviewing" who would be doing the work.
I never did put the job out to bid. Wasn't interested in the lowest price but like you, if I had, I would also make sure that everyone was bidding on the same items.
I put alot of the product allowances in, cabinetry, windows, etc., to save everyone time. There are too many unknowns in a remodeling project to nail down what those costs would be and I would rather do my own shopping. He tells me what he needs by when and I go pick it out. He doesn't have to worry about staying within my budget on those items, I do. This is done in the interest of saving him time and money and allowing him to concentrate on the actual remodeling.
I can understand where you're coming from. I'm always open to ideas and input from anyone, but I don't appreciate it when a subcontractor tries to force a major change down my throat.
Give me your ideas/suggestions and the reasoning behind them. If I like them, I will tell you so and try to encorporate them. If I don't like them, lets move on. Occasionally you run into someone who wants to do it his way period. Well, I'm sorry, but if it is MY project and I'M the one paying the bill, then I'm the one who makes the final call.
You really have to go on your gut reaction with a lot of these folks you haven't worked with before. Better to say, "sorry no thank you" now rather than waste months and thousands of $$'s. If you get a bad feeling about a contractor, I tend to think you should listen to your gut. Even if you're not able to explain WHY clearly on a forum. :)
And one problem with these threads about problems with contractors is that some of the contractors on this forum get their feathers ruffled and get defensive. Not much you can do about it. Ironically, I tend to think that it is the good customer who runs into a bad contractor that details their problems BUT its the good contractors who have run into bad customers who get defensive.
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
"And one problem with these threads about problems with contractors is that some of the contractors on this forum get their feathers ruffled and get defensive. Not much you can do about it. Ironically, I tend to think that it is the good customer who runs into a bad contractor that details their problems BUT its the good contractors who have run into bad customers who get defensive."
I like the fact that you are honestly trying to understand.
I don't take your points from the other side in a defensive posture.
It would be amazing to se the response of anyone on the other side - that followed a contractor - not a laborer - for a week.
These guys generally handle more issues than is even fathomable for the above average employee to understand in a week , in a day.
I know I do.
I got more, but I really aint got time for this.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Honey, I just want someone to return my phone call! You're 75% in if you do that much.
Show up for the estimate.
Actually give me the estimate.
If you get the job...
Show up when you say you will.
Don't take 3 hour lunch/Home Depot breaks.
Do the work you're contracted to do w/o giving me reasons why it's so hard. If you're a pro, you should know in advance that it's more difficult to run wire through plaster than sheetrock. (Yes, a licensed electrician used that one...before his assistant stole some tools.)
Take pride in your work.
Clean up after yourself. Do ya think I've had bad experiences? We've hired day laborers to high end contractors. 80% of the time, we end up fixing "mistakes".
Take pride in your work!!
http://www.reclaimedhome.com
I understand what you are saying. Ha! That is why I don't have working outside lights, garage door opener and a leaky roof! You're right. Show me some iota of interest and you've got the job.
Had a friend call four electricians for a small job. One showed up and said "its' going to cost about $300.00" She told be, unbeknownst to him, I would have paid him a $1,000.00 because he's the only one who called!
Its' rough on both sides of the equation, for sure, but, from a HO point of view, I have a hard time drumming up sympathy when someone states business is "slow" or they can't find work. When they were busy, they didn't call you back!
You guys kill me. "Return my phone call. Show up and give the estimate. Don't take 3 hour lunch/Home Depot breaks" - Oh, you mean, like, to eat lunch, run to the supply house, return a few phone calls, and show up at the next customer's job who wants an estimate? Sheez. Wish you could walk a mile in these boots.
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Edited 1/13/2008 10:48 pm by Huck
Good point! :)
I believe there are some misunderstandings. If you are a contractor only, you would not be doing the actual job but hiring someone, correct? Then I would not expect you to be there during the whole period. Obviously, you are not only lining up the subs for the current job but for the next project also.
This is where the misunderstanding lies. The complaints aren't neccesarily about a contractor. If I call a plumber and he doesn't show, a contractor had nothing to do with it.
I also believe if you counted all the complaints about trades people and divided it amoung all trades, the percentage would be very low. One complaint divided up among all roofers or plumbers or electricians doesn't mean a hill of beans. The same with a contractor, two guys stiffed me, three others showed up. I hope the two that stiffed me go out of business but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.
Ha! Unfortunately, I still need my roof fixed.
What is with the font change?
Yeah - believe me, I know there are flaky contractors out there. Its just frustrating when I have to bear the brunt for them, and I'm not a flaky contractor! Really, a lot of the problems are in the system itself, not just in the people.
Could you imaging calling three doctors, telling them you have a health problem, then expecting them to come to your house for free, check you out, diagnose the problem, and write up a bid to treat you? I dare anyone here to try it and see how far they get!
Or how about calling three lawyers, telling them you have a legal problem, could they come on over to your house, look over your paperwork, tell you what they recommend as a legal strategy, and write up a bid to solve your legal problems - all for free, of course? Who would have the nerve?
OK, I'm on a roll. Try calling three mechanics, asking them to come to your house, diagnose your car's problems, and write up a bid to fix it. And then tell them how long of a break you expect them to take while they're working on it, and they better not leave in the middle to go fix the vehicle of a regular customer who gives them a lot of business. What do you think they'd tell you?
We just frankly don't expect other professions to be governed by such ridiculous parameters.
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Edited 1/14/2008 1:31 am by Huck
You know I had a specialized timber frame restoration contractor come out to look at a job and you know what he charged for estimates. $250.00 just to come out and look at the job and give his opinion on what was needed to fix the problem.But you know what his experience and his references backed up his claims and he was worth paying. Things is I have been asked to not only bid on a job but also do design work at the same time then submit that bid and then loose that job based on a few dollars. I Wondered did the other guy just look at what I designed and say hey I can do that for X dollars. What about the time I spent going to their house looking at the job listening to what they wanted, doing the design work, giving them choices in finish and trim walking them through the design only for them to go with someone else using my designs.After that I thought no more if I have to do any design at all I get a proposal fee. I explain there is no such thing as a free quote you pay for it somehow. And if you hire a guy who gives free quotes then you are paying for all the time he spent doing quotes for the jobs he did not get. After all he needs to get paid for his time some how. I just make you pay upfront for it. You can choose to use me or not but I was payed for the time I spent working out your job so I do not need to add to my prices to cover unbilled time spent on it or other jobs I did not get.
I like the way you think!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
I drove by and saw this the other day. The patio roof to the left of the garage was designed by me for a friend. I spent some time on this - drew it up, made a materials list, took it to my lumber yard, got a price on everything, concrete, shingles, etc., gave him a bid, and waited. I really needed the work. After a month of waiting (I didn't want to bug him), I called - he said Oh I hired a guy who's not a contractor, but just works on weekends, and his price was cheaper than yours. My design. Thanks.
View Image View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
With friends like that you dont need enemies
sancho... where ya been ?
the rumors of your demise must have been greatly exaggeratedMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
let the celebrations begin
Really, a lot of the problems are in the system itself, not just in the people.
From the homeowner side--AMEN!!!
Regarding calling three doctors--no, but I go to the doctor about once/year. So do most people I know--so getting references is a whole lot easier.
Three lawyers. Most lawyers advertise (we've only been to a lawyer once--for a will) 30 minutes free consultation. Not much, but it's better than doctors. Most people I know don't go to the lawyer's once/year.
Mechanics. We've been fortunate in not needing one for anything other than some basic stuff (rotating and balancing tires mostly).
But with all three of these, the cost for a basic visit and service will be substantially less than for any remodeling or construction job. AND I'm more likely to have several friends who have used the services of one of these other professions. AND the doctors and lawyers, even good ones, are listed in the phone book. That makes finding a good contractor harder.
We just frankly don't expect other professions to be governed by such ridiculous parameters.
You must not deal too closesly with the government!! The State of New Mexico has fined a Dept. of Energy contractor $800K+ because AFTER all the audits and AFTER several years of following the audited and approved procedures, the state decided unilaterally that the procedures were insufficient.
"Ridiculous" doesn't even begin to describe the rules governing the nuclear industry.
Kathleen
I go to the doctor about once/year Good point. If people had maintenance, repairs, and smaller remodels taken care of on a regular basis, they'd already have a rapport with a contractor they could trust. I've often wondered why more people don't take this logical approach. If I was going to hire a contractor for a huge job, I'd hire him for a small job first. Some people seem to think they can roll the dice on a big gamble and win every time.
Most lawyers advertise (we've only been to a lawyer once--for a will) 30 minutes free consultation Excellent point - we contractors should really limit our initial visit to 30 minutes. Then charge $5K non refundable just to retain our services, and we could just work up until we determined that the money ran out (including billing for every phone call, bill mailed, etc.), then send 'em a bill for more.
But with all three of these, the cost for a basic visit and service will be substantially less than for any remodeling or construction job. Wow, I didn't know that. Open heart surgery cheaper than open wall surgery? Unplug an artery less than unplug a kitchen sink? Remodel your face less than remodel your house? Boy, you'd think more doctors would be getting into construction. Probably will, once the word gets out!
doctors and lawyers, even good ones, are listed in the phone book. That makes finding a good contractor harder. Now that's a good point I hadn't realized - that some phone books don't have any listings for contractors. Ours does, and I'm in it. Well, not all of them. But once I start getting my 5K retainer, and limiting my initial free consultation to 30 minutes, I'll be able to afford those full-page ads like the lawyers do. Coupla grand a month for the ad, no problemo.
You must not deal too closesly with the government!! The State of New Mexico has fined a Dept. of Energy contractor $800K+ because AFTER all the audits and AFTER several years of following the audited and approved procedures, the state decided unilaterally that the procedures were insufficient. "Ridiculous" doesn't even begin to describe the rules governing the nuclear industry. Thanks for the heads-up - if I should make a late-in-life career change, it won't be to to a New Mexico Energy Contracting business, and I guess I'll steer clear of any nuclear energy businesses too! (For years my wife, daughter, and myself were part of a nuclear family - fortunately the government never caught on!)
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Edited 1/19/2008 9:36 pm by Huck
Open heart surgery cheaper than open wall surgery? Unplug an artery less than unplug a kitchen sink? Remodel your face less than remodel your house?
I said basic. For a doctor, that's about $150 for co-pay and basic blood work on an annual check-up. To get our wills done was about $400--once. Last time we had tires rotated and balanced was maybe $100 (although that one's been a long time).
...that some phone books don't have any listings for contractors.
Any number of contractors on this forum have stated that they don't advertise. The two contractors that I've found in our town don't advertise--found one through the spouse of a colleague--she happened to hear me talking to someone else about finding a builder; the other is my kids' tumbling coach--but he tries to avoid construction as he wants the gym to be his full-time business.
If people had maintenance, repairs, and smaller remodels taken care of on a regular basis, they'd already have a rapport with a contractor they could trust. I've often wondered why more people don't take this logical approach. If I was going to hire a contractor for a huge job, I'd hire him for a small job first.
It's not a bad approach, certainly works for some people--my sister-in-law being one. But I'm not sure what I'd be having someone do. Check the window caulking--easy enough for us to do. Ditto on painting. Fix the screen--with kids pushing on it all the time, that be at least once/month. So we have the little tool thing to push the spline in and we retighten (or replace) the screen when we can't stand it.
Plus, both my husband and I come from families where hiring someone to do something you could manage yourself was simply not an option--even if that meant the work was not quite as good as a professional would do. When something goes wrong with the house, the car, the computer, the whatever, the first thing that comes to mind is not "who do I call to fix this" but "let's see if we can figure out what's wrong".
Kathleen
I said basic. For a doctor, that's about $150 for co-pay and basic blood work on an annual check-up. To get our wills done was about $400--once. Last time we had tires rotated and balanced was maybe $100 (although that one's been a long time).
OK, OK, I get the point - you want me to believe that medical and vehicle repair work are less expensive than construction work. Yeah, right. Like I said - when I see doctors switching over to my profession, I'll start to believe it. Oh that's right - basic. Like 20 minutes of my doctor's time for a simple visit, compared to several weeks of a contractor's time for a kitchen remodel, that sounds like a fair comparison.
Any number of contractors on this forum have stated that they don't advertise. The two contractors that I've found in our town don't advertise--found one through the spouse of a colleague--she happened to hear me talking to someone else about finding a builder; the other is my kids' tumbling coach--but he tries to avoid construction as he wants the gym to be his full-time business.
The profit and overhead markup on our work is often so marginal, most of us can't afford to advertise anywhere near the amount that other professions do. And the percentage of people responding to our ads who do not hire us, and have no intention of hiring us, but are merely looking for some free advice, and someone to do their homework for them, is far greater than the other professions mentioned.
Yes, we are expected to give free diagnostics, free estimates, even free bids to do complex jobs. Will your mechanic do that? Do a free diagnostic on your car's problem, and work up a price to fix it, that he is obligated to stick to come what may - all for no charge? Oh yeah, and be sure to tell him you're taking it to two other mechanics, to find out which one will be cheapest.
Plus, both my husband and I come from families where hiring someone to do something you could manage yourself was simply not an option--even if that meant the work was not quite as good as a professional would do. When something goes wrong with the house, the car, the computer, the whatever, the first thing that comes to mind is not "who do I call to fix this" but "let's see if we can figure out what's wrong".
You mean like draw up a simple will, rotate the tires of your car, teach your kids to tumble, stuff like that?
------------
At any rate, we are in agreement on one thing: the current system stinks. You have had problems finding a good contractor, I have had problems finding good clients (with a few bright spots mixed in).
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Edited 1/20/2008 1:39 am by Huck
Just finished watching a episode of Holmes on homes http://www.holmesonhomes.comAnd It made me think of this topic. In the show a couple hired a contractor to lower their basement floor (underpinning the foundation) and finish the basement (up to ready for drywall).Well they got 3 bids lowest $15,000 highest being $55,000 other $35,000 Now guess who they hired? The cheep guy of course and low and behold the result was a flooded basement and a unfinished job and all the framing was wrong electrical was a nightmare. Now Holmes shows up and states that to do the job right from the start would cost at least $35,000 to do the floor and under pin the foundation (which included a interior drain tile system) and around $55,000 including finishing the drywall. And of course the contractor did not pull any permits.I could not help but think the whole time about the two contractors that did not get the job they more then likely would have done it right. (we will never know of course) but they did not get the job why? Home owners were cheep. They were lucky that Mike Holmes came and fixed the job but what about the contractors that would have done a good job?Home owners always want to blame bad contractors but they are often the ones that do not want to pay to do it right. Some of the worst work I see is often not done by a bad contractor but by Joe home owner himself. Why? They don't know how to do it right or won't pay to do it right. And of course I hear all the time "Do I need permit" or "I really do not want to pull a permit if I don't have to I don't want to pay more on my property tax." I always answer yes you need a permit and explain to they why they will pay a lot more if work is not done right they the little they will save trying to cheat the town out of a few bucks. The building inspector is your friend!!! Any contractor that will do work without a permit you should not hire. (ok you can hire a painting contractor or some guy to do finish work without a permit) But most of the time if you think you might need a permit you probably do. Of course they will not admit after that they asked the guy if they could do it without a permit. They just say well he said we did not need one. BULL **** again anyone that agrees to do work without a permit is no contractor. Also So many times people hire some guy that is a decent carpenter that actually is just a employee of a bigger contractor that does side jobs to do work on their house. He of course is not a registered Home Improvement contractor does not have insurance and will not pull a permit and would prefer to get paid in cash. And they actually agree to this. Why!! then when things go wrong they say well he was recommended by a trusted friend. Well what did he do for them? A little carpentry work that he was more then capable of doing but they are hiring him to do a complete remodeling project that includes electrical, plumbing, tile work and sometimes a complete addition with a full basement. Now this guy is not a contractor but they hired him to be. WHY? CHEEP
People will go out of their way to save a buck and risk the biggest investment of their life to some guy they know nothing about all to save a buck. That is really why they get taken. There are plenty of very good contractors out there that do Quality work at a fair price but listening to home owners stories of wow you would think we all a thieves out to steal their money
They will pay a mechanic $75 an hour to work on a $2,000 car, but want to pay $8.00 an hour to work on theeir million dollar house.
"There are plenty of very good contractors out there that do Quality work at a fair price but listening to home owners stories of wow you would think we all a thieves out to steal their money" Quote
As a homeowner, I would agree that there are many good contractors that do outstanding work. But what would you think if a Doctor opened you up and said, "Oops, over my heard", and left you there. I guess you would not be saying anything. I think you would have to agree that there are a small number of thieves.
There are also a small number of contractors who think they have done quality work but are themselves over their heads. How many times have you opened up a wall and found hidden electrical junction boxes and othe problems that was done by a previous contractor. I think that happens all to often.
Reality is that some homeowners are just over thir heads. They know nothing about how a house is put together and they know little about permits and other regulations that are there to protect them. Some guy comes knocking on their doors and says hey, we can do this for you. Happened to me this week.
You also have to admit that some of those guys really think they can pull it off. They really don't understand what the General Contractor has to deal with. You know, dealing with all the subs and coordinating their work, dealing with the suppliers to make sure all the materials are on the job site on time, managing the costs, paying the subs, getting the permits (if they do), making sure the structure will stand up or making sure the Engineer has checked the drawings, keeping up with changing codes and practices and managing changing plans.
So, the contractor thinks he can pull if off and comes up short. What choice does he have at that point but to walk away. I really don't have any sympathy for a Homeower who thinks that they are saving money by not pulling permits. But I would not be surprised if many of you have done just that.
There are also a small number of contractors who think they have done quality work but are themselves over their heads. How many times have you opened up a wall and found hidden electrical junction boxes and other problems that was done by a previous contractor. I think that happens all to often.Actually I have found this but how do you know it was a contractor? It was definitely work done without a permit since no inspector would approve it. More likely a DIYer did it. Any good contractor would not do work without a permit and inspection. (or even a well meaning one who was in over his head would still pull a permit)Now I know there are those who call them selves a contractor but they are pretenders. It is sad when anyone gets cheated but I see a lot of homeowners that really set them selves up to be taken. It's hard for me to have sympathy also when in trying to save a buck they waste money hiring a hack. I know many homeowners reading this will say how was I to know I trusted him that he knew what he was talking about. But did they ask to see other jobs. talk directly to other clients?Or at least look to find out them selves what the code is. It is after all their home it may be nice to have a understanding of how it's systems work. But if you are to lazy to learn then you might pay. It is always cheaper to do it right the first time but a lot of good contractors make a living fixing others messes.
Well they got 3 bids lowest $15,000 highest being $55,000 other $35,000 Now guess who they hired? The cheap guy of course and lo and behold the result was a flooded basement and a unfinished job
Anyone can claim to be a contractor, or a remodeler, and undercut a legititmate contractor who is licensed bonded insured, and who pays legitimate payroll costs including workers compensation, and state and federal taxes.
In addition, people in my community (and a lot of other places, I'm sure) are looking for the cheap price. I run into this so often it isn't even funny. Price is the bottom line, the deciding factor. So the lowball guy who ripped this lady off is likely still in business, because he got 15K, probably spent about half that in substandard work, and took off with the rest.
The guy who was likely legitimate at 35K or 55K got nothing. Will the legit guys be in business for long with Mr. Shoddy Lowball and all his type out there undercutting them daily? People gripe about these cr@ppy contractors, but they are there for a reason - the cheapie buyers who base their decision on price alone keep them out there.
Who is to blame when the legitimate contractor decides to close his doors in a community where no one hires him, or customers constantly chisel him. And who is to blame when the shoddy lowballer makes good money, has healthy profits, lots of jobs, and is still out there 10 years later, with the same buisness model, still turning out hack work to unsuspecting people who haven't done their homework in selecting a legitimate quality contractor.
A lot of people come here and gripe about contractors that don't show up, don't follow up with a bid, or don't return their phone calls. Scheduling, phoning, typing bids - these are administrative activities that are best handled from an office, not a worktruck. But for a contractor to add office rent, office furniture (desk fax, phone, etc.), and an office worker to his overhead, adds a substantial cost overhead. Around here a contractor- sized shop / garage, with small office, can rent for as much as $4K a month. My friend has a glass and granite business, and his overhead is 12K a month. Just a very small office will rent for $1K/mo.
So my question to those complaining that the contractor didn't return their phone calls - did they pick a contractor with a license, insurance, office, secretary, and so forth? These are not the cheap guys. In fact, they are often far and away the most expensive. We (contractors) often operate under extreme financial duress - we have as much paperwork and administrative work as any other business, but our line of work doesn't produce the overhead capital to sustain a business infrastructure.
Even if we handle all the office work ourselves - our time spent doing it has to be factored into the cost of each and every job we do. People are not just paying for jobsite time. But often, jobsite time is all they want to pay for. One homeowner complained about their contractor taking 3 hour lunch/supplies breaks - in the same breath that they said they expected their phone calls to be answered and their jobs bid. But if their contractor is a work-alone one man show, he has to take time to return phone calls, and write-up bids.
To me, the 'call for three bids, pick the lowball guy' is a poor system for deciding whom to entrust with your most expensive possession. Due diligence calls for more than picking the lowballer, or picking three strangers from an ad somewhere, and then griping about what you get.
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Edited 1/20/2008 7:32 pm by Huck
Good post. One of the most acurate I have read.
A couple of months ago we had a woman call the office and say she wanted an estimate but didn't want to hire someone that spent all there money on shiny new trucks. So if that is what we had she would rather not talk with us. I said that is exactly what we have, along with insurance, people covered with comp, health care and good tools. We work regular hours and clean up at the end of each day and warranty our work. So as to not give her what she didn't want I would say have a nice day and hang up now. She said good bye, meakly.
Yesterday I called a client and said I knew the job I quoted him ($3700 shower stall install) was a budget thing and that I found a product that I felt good about that would allow me to reduce my price a few hundred. He said they went with someone else and I said ok, just wanted to pass that along and I am sorry I didn't find it sooner. He said the guy they went with beat me by $1100!
The only way I can figure he could do that is to use absolutely the cheapest #### on earth and work for far less than we do. But ok, its his choice.
But what really got me is the way I got this client is he had a low bid addition put on, 2'X6" floor joists spanning 14', one built up double 2x 6 beam and one pillar, crawl space with no vapor barrier or vents. On a 28 X 30 addtion. In time this quagmire turned his room into a trampoline. We did a bunch of dirt work, sistering, pillaring etc. Talked to him about his method of choosing who works on his house.
We did a couple other jobs for him and then noticed a low ball company installing windows there. No other calls till this shower. Guess we are back to square one. I guess it is just in some peoples nature. By the way, dual income retirees with everything paid for so not a money issue. Just an agravation issue on my part. DanT
as both a homeowner and a former contractor(not by choice) i was extreemlydissapointed with the quality of contractors today. now before you get worked up i will explain. i needed to get my roof done this summer. i called everyone in the phone book. in the neighborhood of 25 calls. 2 called me back to give me estimate. the low bid did not get the job. i wish i had given the job to him. i signed contract, 2weeks to start. 3 weeks call him up. next week be there. 2 weeks later after 3 more pnone calls the material showed up. 1 week later the job was started. 25 square tear off, install ply. the job took 1.5 weeks. how this man fools himself into staying in business, i don't know. by the way, every day ice chest filled up with soda and gatorade. he still screwed up. i had to give him a fix, against my better judgement. anyway to make a long story,long , all he had to do was talk to me. call. he did not get to install the windows i had installed this fall.
as both a homeowner and a former contractor(not by choice) i was extreemlydissapointed with the quality of contractors today. now before you get worked up i will explain.
I would not get worked up over that statement. I am disappointed with the quality of most contractors I meet also. But we have an unfortunate system that perpetuates their existence.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Call back, show up.
3 months ago I talked to a guy with a road grader about doing my drive. No big job, about 1000' I need graded, road based and gravel.
This guy (guy #1) lives about 3 miles south of me in the little town I get my mail. Talked to him at his house, said he could do it and would do it the next day. Gave him my number and said see you tomorrow.
Week later he calls and asks do I still want it done. Said yes, why don't you stop by and look at it. How hard could that be?
This guy absolutely can not go to town without passing my road, so he's by here at least twice a week if not 20 times.
Never heard from him again, this was about 3 months ago.
Called for a 16 yard dumpster, guy delivering it remarks on my road, told him I needed it graded ect. He says "My dad has a little grader, he could do it." Tells me they deliver rock, road base ect. Good price on rock too.
Told him, "Have your dad call me."
Dad calls 3 or 4 days later, says he'll be out the next day.
When another son picks up the dumpster 6 weeks later, I mention the road & tell him dad never showed.
He says he'll have him call me.
That was a month ago. Had the dumpster that long cuz I paid cash on delivery and it never got entered into system. Could have kept it forever, but who needs a full 16 yard dumpster?
So, thinking if I want this done I'm gonna have to buy a grader. From the local freebee. Been wanting one anyway, they look like a ton of fun.
ROAD GRADER GALION T-500. Runs good. Over all in good condition. Late 1960’s Model rear Tandem Wheels, Enclosed Cab. $4500 OBO Mike(435)####-xxxx
Thinking I could probaby keep pretty busy grading roads if I just return phone calls. Buddy of mine just finished a job way south of here. I asked why he was working so far away (50 miles)- He said "Because I was the only one who returned his call" Two weeks work for a backhoe & dump truck from a phone call.
Joe H
that's insane, but it is the way things are all too often.that's the main reason i have gotten into DIY for bigger projects than i probably should
I've been working with suppliers and it has similarities to hiring contractors.
I like it when the person gets into the details of the job and gives me different levels of supplies. Like," this is how I see this happening but you could save some money by going this way."
Give me options so I can spend money on things/details I want.
I think the small details of a job can make a big difference. Personaloze the job so the person feels like they have some creative expresion.
But not to much for some people. They can get overwhelmed easily.
And sometimes the more you tell them the worse it can get.
I suppose the point has been made, but I'd like to certainly add an AMEN to it. Here's a few more (based on my considerable experience):
1. Return calls! (I guess we said that!)
2. Don't smoke in my house, and don't throw butts in my yard. Ditto for pop cans, and MickeyD's trash.
3. Don't try to steal my "scrap". I know what it's worth.
4. Don't try to bullsh&t me. If you screwed up, admit it and fix it. It's OK, we all do it. Don't try to cover it up, 'cause I WILL notice it.
5. If you charge me by the hour, get breakfast on your time, not mine.
6. Your workers need to be sober.
7. You may disagree on this, and feel free to let me know, but if I'm getting charged for the whole can of purple primer, and you only use a bit of it, isn't it MY can? Leave the rest! (Or at least offer to).
8. If you're going to piss in my yard, at least go out back.
9. This would probably never happen, but it would be nice...Homeowners are often warned "make sure they have insurance, if someone gets hurt..blah, blah". If you DO have insurance, that would be a real bragging point, and give the HO a warm fuzzy. (Though people do lie, of course). Also, I'd love to see ANYONE use any kind of safety equipment on a job site. May seem kinda girly, but seeing someone go without ear or eye protection doesn't make them look manly, it makes them look stupid.
These seem obvious and stupid, but I have seen all these and more. It's tragic, really. While I have the utmost respect for the industry, I have been burned by contractors of all types to the point I only hire for what I absolutely can't do myself (last job-well drilling). This has encouraged me to learn to do for myself, and I am blessed with an awesome family to help. But, I'd have spent a ton of money over the last 20 years if I could have gotten someone to RETURN MY PHONE CALL!
A most excellent post!
WHOA! You're scary!
JK read below:
suppose the point has been made, but I'd like to certainly add an AMEN to it. Here's a few more (based on my considerable experience):
1. Return calls! (I guess we said that!) Ok I'll really try...
2. Don't smoke in my house, and don't throw butts in my yard. Ditto for pop cans, and MickeyD's trash. Don't smoke, drink 'pop' or go to Mc'D's but can I read your magazines on the can?
3. Don't try to steal my "scrap". I know what it's worth. You can have it all! My wife will divorce me if I bring home any more 'valuable' 2x4 cutoffs and 16" x 18" sheets of plywood...
4. Don't try to bullsh&t me. If you screwed up, admit it and fix it. It's OK, we all do it. Don't try to cover it up, 'cause I WILL notice it. I did it.. It was me... I'll fix it...
5. If you charge me by the hour, get breakfast on your time, not mine. I eat oats and coffee at home with my wife an daughter. I'd pay YOU to continue this practice.
6. Your workers need to be sober. I am my worker and I have a beer at home after work.
7. You may disagree on this, and feel free to let me know, but if I'm getting charged for the whole can of purple primer, and you only use a bit of it, isn't it MY can? Leave the rest! (Or at least offer to). See #3
8. If you're going to piss in my yard, at least go out back. I would love to pee in your yard! On longer jobs I've even been able to visibly improve the grass in an ever-larger area by completion... But only out back, for sure.
9. This would probably never happen, but it would be nice...Homeowners are often warned "make sure they have insurance, if someone gets hurt..blah, blah". If you DO have insurance, that would be a real bragging point, and give the HO a warm fuzzy. (Though people do lie, of course). Also, I'd love to see ANYONE use any kind of safety equipment on a job site. May seem kinda girly, but seeing someone go without ear or eye protection doesn't make them look manly, it makes them look stupid.
Personally I don't understand how someone claiming and charging as a professional would not carry a license, insurance and bond--or that a client would HIRE someone to do something considerable to their home without verifying that that professional is indeed licensed, insured and bonded. In my area it is law, but I still know lots who go without.
My eyes, ears and lungs are the only ones I'll have for the rest of my life. It's positively stupid not to protect myself.
These seem obvious and stupid, but I have seen all these and more. It's tragic, really. While I have the utmost respect for the industry, I have been burned by contractors of all types to the point I only hire for what I absolutely can't do myself (last job-well drilling). This has encouraged me to learn to do for myself, and I am blessed with an awesome family to help. But, I'd have spent a ton of money over the last 20 years if I could have gotten someone to RETURN MY PHONE CALL!
Good on ya' for learning. Learned helplessness is not an option for anyone in the world who owns a home. It is really remarkable that some contractors stay in business at all... A friend calls them 'construction flakes.' They bitch on one hand about the state of the economy or that they can't find work.. but return those calls!
Good post, Thanks.
I'll bite, since I never, ever take the lowest bid:
I want a contractor who will do a better job than I can. The contractor who did my bathrooms was very expensive and he came highly recommended by a friend. Here's a few things I'd like a contractor NOT to do:
1) His plumber set the new toilet wrong. It now has a crack in the bowl and leaks.
2) His plumber cut off the old cast iron vent and left it unsupported in the ceiling, a hole to the sky that would have delivered a lot of water into the attic if it hadn't succumbed to gravity and crashed through the ceiling. I paid the usual time and materials for the drywall repair to the ceiling, but fixed the roof myself.
3) His plumber added a floor drain in the basement that now smells every time I do laundry if I don't add water to it with each load.
4) His tile guy set the tiles unevenly, after making us wait for months for his 'services'. Our tile floor SQUEAKS because of improper substrate. He also charged us for a tile basemold that he didn't do.
5) The grout in the shower where we bought the really expensive tiles is 2 different colors because the tile guy thought that the way to fix cracks in the brand new grout job is to slap some more in, and he didn't bother to match the color. After all the grout came out in chunks around the bathtub my husband siliconed that part, but someday when we are caught up on projects I expect to regrout.
6) Again the tile guy - he set the shower tiles at the wrong level for the fixture. The contractor tried to talk me into having one tile on top of the other to fix it. Seriously. Again I got to pay T&M for them to reopen the wall and move the valve and then retile that section.
7) The contractor cut the new solid core doors too short, so I had to buy another one (with the T&M upcharge for both the reject and the new one). The doors, although brand-new, are all scratched up and the painters did nothing to remedy that.
8) The painters left white specks shining through their single coat. And green specks on other parts of the room.
9) The cultured marble guy brought in the counter and then cut it "to fit", which by his definition is with a half-inch gap all around.
I've got more NOTs, but it makes me tired. Did we make mistakes when we DIYed our addition? You bet we did. But our tile floor is nice and level with no cracks, and it doesn't squeak. Somehow when you are paying a premium to someone who is supposed to by a seasoned professional the mistakes feel even worse.
why in the world did you pay for the mistakes these guys made?
"why in the world did you pay for the mistakes these guys made?"
I was billed for them, what else could I do? It didn't occur to me ahead of time to have a clause in the contract stating that "T&M would be paid except for stupid boneheaded mistakes made by the contractor". It's really hard to have a one year old without a bathroom - contractors can hold us homeowners hostage that way.
As mentioned numerous times above, the contractor (or subcontractor in my case as I'm in the middle of GC'ing my whole house) show up when they say they're going to show up, with a full crew every workday (weather permitting) and work until their portion of the job is 100% complete.
The one excuse I'm really tired of hearing for a crew not showing up is "The truck broke down". Another is there's been a death in the family. That one's used so often (6 deaths so far) my wife and I joke we ought to have a clause in the contract allowing us to take out life insurance policies on all subcontractors next of kin.
Probably a secondary "wish" is that an all spanish speaking crew be accompanied at ALL times ON THE JOB SITE by one guy who can speak excellent english. Typically there is an english speaking guy but he's running around between three or four crews. Communication at the site is then typically via cell phone with this guy as the intrepreter. It's been my experience that, while the spanish crews work hard and their work has been more then satisfactory, job site communication has been abysmal.
Runnerguy
Generally, I worry that a contractor won't do as good a job as I would do. Then I worry that they'll take longer than I would.
As primarily a sub-contractor working for the same prime contractors over and over, I'm somewhat frustrating to the occasional HO that I work for. I expect hard, fast decisions from customers and I expect to move quickly once those decisions are made. If one of my regular (for 10 yrs) customers calls and needs something done on Thurs so another sub can move forward and missing a day on a HO job won't affect anything but completion date, then my guys won't be on the HO job Thurs. I try to explain this going in, but it often falls on deaf ears. I don't solicit HO work, but sometimes get it by referal.
Now, when I look for a contractor on my own home, I consider the above scenario. If they're primarily a sub and I want them to do the job, then I have to wait 'til it suits them. If I need it done today, I have to call the fast guy. I also understand that the squeeky wheel gets the grease. If I need to know something, I call 'em 'til I get an answer and I don't get mad if it takes a while for them to get back to me. Sometimes, I'll get 4-5 voice mails during the course of one call. I have to prioritize what's important to me and some people just don't get a return call. If a contractor doesn't call me back, it's apparent he doesn't want my business and I move on to the next guy (or gal).
http://grantlogan.net/
This is a great thread as we are getting to the serious point of deciding on a builder - so I have a couple of thoughts and will mix in a couple of questions.
The house is custom, archtect designed but I stress really, really simple in many ways. Steel truss (7 bents), mostly 1 floor with a mezannine, envelope is stick framed with outsulation, standing seam galvalume skin with some curtain wall glass, stone (a fair bit), no eaves, soffits, or gutters (all water is handled by french drains at the wall bases). The interior finishes are simple - concrete floor, single wood species mill work, no drywall, single counter surfaces . . . . in short, simple design that I think will require more attention to the details given that the architectural features are so "obvious". The house is a home for our art collection and for us.
So what are we looking for
- someone who understands what we are trying to achieve
- an accurate estimate of costs (and I know that means we have to be responsible about planning, limited/no change orders, clear drawings etc)
-clear communications
-good problem solving capability
So here is a question for you builders - how are you more comfortable working in terms of costing? Do you like a complete detailed set of drawings that you provide a full costing on? Or, do you prefer to do an estimate and then work on materials, labour, plus percentage? All of the builders we have met prefer the latter and I think I understand this well - time/materials plus percentage seems to protect everyone. The builder isn't potentially skinned by unforseen problems that arise. The homeowner will get what they really want rather than shorted if the job is going longer or unanticipated problems arise. To the builders, are there problems with this approach? Do you think it encourages less than accurate estimates, if the builder knows they are not really held to the estimate anyways (can claim unforseen problems etc)? What do I as the homeowner need to be aware of as we start this part of the process (and beleive me, I've already had some lost sleep over it)? We really want to enjoy this part of the journey bc for us the journey is just as important as the final destination.
As well, we are doing this project in 2 phases. If you've seen it on other threads, the first phase is a shop, garage and guest quarters. The second is the main house. Likely a 1-2 year gap between phases.
Here's a slightly different spin. I've heard these rules a number of times; don't know the original source. Five Rules for Success: 1. Show up
2. Do your best
3. Tell the truth
4. Take responsibility
5. Don't be attached to the result (I.e., my way or no way)I have paid and will pay extra for that. But the fact is, I haven't paid more when I got that kind of service. Now, if I only knew how to find and select those people who operate that way!Most every unhappy experience I've had (and not just with contractors) was the result of a failure of one or more of these "rules".My wife and I are currently waiting on a quote from a builder for our new house. Local news suggests builders would be, well, enthusiastic for our business. We want 6" stud walls for more insulation. Rule 5: He's "attached to" using 2x4's. I spelled out all the requirements at first meeting in September. Still no quote. He set a date for this past week. No word. I don't know where this fits in, but I don't like to be treated like a dummy. I'm usually not, but even when I am, I appreciate an opportunity to learn. I'd like contractors to be the same way. I think it's the notion of getting attached to your point of view, even when it's "expert". Someone told me an expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less till they know everything about nothing.Case in point, HVAC guy doesn't want to run Manual J calculation. "Orientation of the house to the sun has no effect on air conditioning capacity".Just another thought. I have my own business, too. I only get paid when I work. When I stay home waiting for a service person who never comes, it costs me about 2 grand. Sorry for a rambling post, but this topic makes me reflect on the scr**ings I've received at the hands of any number of contractors, and I get agitated.Frank
Yeah, those rules work well in any business. #5 is often overlooked, but is more important than most people would think.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
"5. Don't be attached to the result (I.e., my way or no way)"
"#5 is often overlooked, but is more important than most people would think.
but Rule Number 5 is how most successful contractors get that way.
that's how I work.
always have ... always will.
I might have a different interpretation than you ...
but I am brought in as the expert ...
I am the expert ...
and I will build as the expert.
other ideas and sources are welcome ... but when decision time comes ...
I am the expert.
and .... I don't care what the other experts say!
now ... like the other post that speleld out they wanted a 6" wall as opposed to a 2x4 ... I'd listen.
but if I had already decided a 2x4 wall with ridgid insulation and other details was better ... I'd explain ... then proceed my way ... or at least proceed selling my way.
I'm firmly attached to the results ... it's my job site before it's yer house again.
and my way is the way ... that's why I'm there.
I'm the expert.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
That's a fine line - how to give the client what they're asking for, without compromising your own standards. Or otherwise stated, how to give the client a product you can feel proud of, without forcing your tastes and opinions on them. We don't get much call to work on bigger, expensive homes, so I run into this a lot. Just did a condo renovation project, and certain things went against my grain, but I did them. Still, I have to remember, when I"m done, my name is on that job.
Another poster in this thread (a consumer) has stated he eliminated one potential bidder because he didn't like the style of cabinets the contractor's previous client picked out. In his words "Once again, not his fault if that is what the client wished but I would hope that he tried to talk them into a finished end." While acknowledging it wasn't the contractor's fault for what his client picked, he also canned him from bidding the project because of it.
So like you, I tend to stick to my guns on certain issues. Compromise too much, and it will be thrown in your face later. View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
If you can't give the customer what he wants without violating your standards you should walk away. (After fair warning, of course.)
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
After fair warning from them ( HO trying to take adventage) - I'll agree, sorta.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Another poster in this thread (a consumer) has stated he eliminated one potential bidder because he didn't like the style of cabinets the contractor's previous client picked out. In his words "Once again, not his fault if that is what the client wished but I would hope that he tried to talk them into a finished end." While acknowledging it wasn't the contractor's fault for what his client picked, he also canned him from bidding the project because of it.
Huck, I think you're reading that different than I am. He didn't eliminate the contractor because the contractor's previous client chose ugly cabinets. HO was worried that the contractor didn't have experience with the level of K remodel that HO wanted. And HO felt that the contractor was trying to shove his own preferences down HO's throat.
Personally I think it is a mistake to bring pics along if all you've got is one set of pics of one basic K. In this case the contractor needed a variety of pics showing "basic", "mid", and "high end" k's that he has done in the past. That would reassure the HO's that the contractor was able to do the work. And if you don't have those (at the minimum), then don't bring pics along...they just make the contractor look like a newbie.
And if a contractor couldn't give me a time guesstimate and was telling me that my project sure wasn't going to be his priority, then I sure wouldn't be putting that contractor at the top of my list. That's just common sense.
I suspect you've run into some goofy-HO's in the past and you're probably a little sensitive on the subject. But I'd also be willing to bet that if you ran into the guy who you quoted, you probably wouldn't have any problem working with him.
As I said earlier, it seems like it is the good contractors who have run into bad customers who get defensive when a good customer runs into a bad contractor and complains.jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
That could be. Ran into one guy who took weeks of my time - jobsite meetings whit him to discuss his project, meetings with my subs to discuss his project - but all without working drawings. Kept giving me new versions of his proposed floor plan roughly sketched out. Finally I told him I could not keep up the meetings/discussions without working drawings. Then he tells me - you have to provide them as part of your bid.
OK, I gave him a ballpark at 200K for the project. Oh no, that's too much, I have a guy who bid it at 150K. Just based on his verbal description of the job, I knew I couldn't do it for that price, and told him so. A few days ago I talked to a buddy of mine who knows the contractor who got the job - for 210K. View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
You got screwed. Get some new discussions out there on how to avoid it. There's no reason you should be investing that much time without being paid.
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
huck....
<<
OK, I gave him a ballpark at 200K for the project. Oh no, that's too much, I have a guy who bid it at 150K. Just based on his verbal description of the job, I knew I couldn't do it for that price, and told him so. A few days ago I talked to a buddy of mine who knows the contractor who got the job - for 210K. >>>
the axiom for that one is number 27a: "buyers are liers"Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Jeff,I appreciate your point of view. I want a guy with expertise and the gumption to sell it to me.I'd like to add some missing details to my example. In my example, we didn't spec 2x6 walls, we specified R-19 minimum insulation in walls and R-38 in the ceiling. This is a well established standard for our climate. The builder sold R-13 with FG batts. We went round and round, but at the end of the day I am the customer. It's my half million for the house and my requirements stand. My expertise is product development and what I know is the customer is the best judge of what their requirements are. As a customer, I don't tell experts how to accomplish the goal, but I do set the goals. I certainly will not choose a contractor whose goal differs from mine.Let me elaborate the story. The builder referred us to his insulation sub. I asked what he recommended as a minimum and what he recommended as "upgrades". He struck me as well competent and it was his recommendation that led to a system that requires 2x6 stud walls. This is surely not novel or untested. I asked him to communicate his recommendation to the builder in parallel with me.The builder was still reluctant at our last meeting in December. I'm not clear on the actual source of his resistance. I think he's concerned about whether the additional cost will pay back in energy savings. I think it will if the HVAC guy does a Manual J calculation taking into account the better insulation and the solar orientation and resizes the heating/cooling plant. I'll pay for the calculation. We want to work with this builder because of many positives; he's on the same wavelength with both my wife and me on 95% of the project, he's built a very similar house before and knows his expenses, we've seen both houses, during construction and after and the fit and finish are excellent and the subs have pride in their work and know what their doing, and finally, he's very economical in his approach, the way Norm Abrams is. So, we really like him, but not enough to change the main goal, which is a dramatically reduced energy requirement to condition the house.Jeff, I like to learn new things, so I want a contractor to tell me when I'm wrong in my thinking and explain why and what's a better approach. I also appreciate when people think they can learn from me. I understand that not everyone wants to invest time in "educating" the customer. It's worked well for me in my business, but it's not for everyone.Best regards,Frank
Frank, changing the subject here, but, have you thought about spray foam? That will work in your 2x4 wall and much better than FG.
Or cellulose with the Mooney Wall system, but sounds like maybe your guy is not gonna like that idea either?
If your HVAC sub can't do the calcs for you, he may not be the guy you want.
Joe H
Joe,Short answer, yes. Read Joe Lstiburek's book on "Mixed Humid Climates" cover to cover before starting down this road. Considered open cell and closed cell foam, wet spray cellulose with and without flash coat of foam first, rigid foam board on the outside of 2x4, SIPS and ICF. Would love to see an economic analysis that would suggest one over the other...but that would probably add 10-20% to cost of house! Makes my head spin.I sympathize with the contractors who have to deal with the armchair aficionado's like me, but with oil at $100/barrel, it's a compelling issue for me.Frank
but with oil at $100/barrel, it's a compelling issue for me.
That $100 oil is why I'd never consider FG.
It's $100 now, what's it gonna be after Alibabba in Iran gets his atomic bomb project ramped up?
Cellulose is cheap and good insulation. FG is junk.
Joe H
Great list. Probably number 1 should be amended to read "Show up on time". I'm in the middle of GC'ing my own house and since June I've probably spent a whole day or maybe two at the house waiting for people who can't seem to get their butt to a meeting by the agreed upon meeting time.
Subcontractors, my time is just as valuable as yours. Don't call me up 10 minutes after you're supposed to be there for a discussion and inform me you're running a "little" late and you'll will be there in 20 minutes.
It's funny, a few months ago I started telling subs I was setting up a meeting with, the need for punctuality ("Pretend you're catching an airplane", I'd say), almost everyone's been on time, as I've always been.
Runnerguy
That's a great question. While it's likely to get some responses being tacked onto a "Why can't I find a contractor that..." thread, it will probably get far more if it where it's own thread titled like "Question for Builders-Costing". How 'bout setting that up?
Thanks. I'd be interested in seeing as much exposure as possible for this one.
Runnerguy
I appreciate all of the responses so far, and I encourage everyone to feel free to express their viewpoints further.<!----><!----><!---->
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I agree that every one of you homeowners has a legitimate complaint. I’d almost go back in business tomorrow with how easy you’re all making it seem. I’d be glad to have any one of you as a customer. However, I know from experience that in addition to being customer oriented, there are a whole lot of other things that contribute to running a successful business. I still have a few things to get in order.<!----><!---->
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“Call all customers back†will be going to the top of my company policy. I once had a pediatrician’s office call me for a major commercial renovation. Although I desperately needed the money, after analyzing the scope of the project, it was obvious that a company as small as mine was couldn’t handle it. I called back the next day explaining the situation and recommended somebody ells. Too bad I went out of business before they could refer any other work to me. Oh well, at least if I ever get back in business, I’ll know where to make my first sales offer.<!----><!---->
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I’d like to comment on everyone’s post, but there are just too many – which by the way is a good thing. Keep them coming. Aimless, I feel for you. I’ve had customers treat me somewhat the way your contractors have treated you. msm–s is right. Don’t pay for substandard work. Always hold a percentage of the money until the job has been done right. There are contractors who will threaten you with a court case or a lean on your home if you refuse to pay, but giving in to someone’s unreasonable demands will only make them more unreasonable until you have nothing left to give. Politely but firmly draw the line when someone is being unreasonable with you – they will respect you for it.<!----><!---->
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MarkMacLeod, I think for your project–which at least in the <!----><!----><!---->United States<!----><!---->, would be quite complex–a cost plus contract is definitely the best thing for both you and your contractor. In regards to weather it encourages less than accurate estimates–most definitely. However, the alternative will most definitely either yield an inferior product, or a greatly overpriced project. Make sure your contractor has a complete set of plans well before construction begins. INSIST on only contracting one major phase of the project at a time. However, be willing to sign a contract that ensures them you won’t seek out any other contractors while their under contract with you. Ask for a non-binding estimate, but be willing to pay for it, and be prepared for it to be too low. Explain that this will be the non-binding limit. Anything above that limit should be explained in detail. Take it one step at a time and make sure they're planning on using plenty of subcontractors.<!----><!---->-T
I don't think the cost plus deal is always the answer unless theres a very strong basis for trust. A set fee works almost the same but eliminates some reasons for suspicion. Lets say the construction costs are going to be 200k and the contractor wants to make 20% ontop of that in a cost plus deal. Instead of entering into a contract that is open ended, they could agree that the set fee would be 40k and the costs are born directly by the buyer. The end result is about the same and the builder does not profit from overages. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I G.C./DIYed a whole house, because I can't stand to pay for work I can do better and faster than the "pro".The contractors that didn't talk down to me were hired.Money isn't the first issue on th elist for me.A medium to large guy named Alan, not an ambiguous female....
NOT that there is anything wrong with that.
The contractors that didn't talk down to me were hired.
Money isn't the first issue on th elist for me.
First, let me start out by saying that you have every right to complain about contractors that talk down to you. Let me also say that I also appreciate your input. I am curious however . . .
I G.C./DIYed a whole house, because I can't stand to pay for work I can do better and faster than the "pro".
Just what makes you think you can do work better and faster that the "pro?"-T
T, I have the good fortune to be somewhat of a jack of all trades.As a farmer in the warm months, I have worked for and with half a dozen contractors through the last 10 years.I also have a circle of friends, that between 6 of us have helped each other remodel 3 houses, and build 3 in the last 6-7 years. We are kind of like the amish with power tools in the winter sometimes. :)I was also fortunate enough to be the last one to build, so I have seen alot of the mistakes made first hand.None of that makes me an expert, but it did give me enough exposure to most of the local contractors to form an opinion.I may be what alot of you guys would consider a bad customer, because I know way more than enough to be dangerous.I hired framers, basement, plumber/hvac, and drywall finishers, the rest I did. (with the help of a dozen friends that reciprocate this kind of stuff).A medium to large guy named Alan, not an ambiguous female....
NOT that there is anything wrong with that.
Just what makes you think you can do work better and faster that the "pro?"
I've hired work done and paid to have it done not to the standards I hold myself to.
I'm not a pro at a lot of things, doen't mean I can't do them.
Your name makes me think Union Journeyman Carp.
If your house needs a new faucet or toilet, do you call a pro or DIY? If you call a pro and he does a crappy job do you smile when you pay?
Don't assume every "Pro" does the kind of work you do, because we all know there are plenty of hacks out there screwing HOs every day of the week.
Joe H
Edited 1/6/2008 4:02 pm by JoeH
Just what makes you think you can do work better and faster that the "pro?"
He is talking about the "pros" whose work is shoddy. Probably doesn't apply to most of the pros on this forum. And that is a point that is hard to get across: Probably doesn't apply to most of the pros on this forum. I think most of the pros on this forum are people who enjoy their work, are interested in their field, and like to do a good job. Probably 90% of the pros on this forum do good work whereas maybe 25-35% of the ones you run into locally do.
I've often commented that I wish some of the pros on this forum lived closer to me because I'd like to hire them.
Otherwise I get tired of hiring a 'pro' who just does shoddy work. I figure I might as well do it myself and at least it will look OK. I suspect that is Al's point of view as well.
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
Even though more times than not I tend to come down on the HO's side... always remember that there is no shortage of goofy HO's. You can have a wonderful design, great bid, super time-line for the project, and the best personality around.... but still not get the job.
1001 reasons why the goofy HO doesn't choose you. many of which are not logical. Ironically many of which won't have anything to do with you. Start a thread about idiot/goofy HO's and you will see. :)
So don't take it personal. You never know what goofy-#### thing is going through their heads (sometimes just the wind whistling).
jt8
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends on his not understanding it." --Upton Sinclair
Edited 1/9/2008 1:36 pm by JohnT8
Edited 1/9/2008 1:37 pm by JohnT8
Sorry if this doesn't fit the discussion; I didn't read all the replies this morning before logging on.
My ex needed a cantilevered deck torn off "my" old house and rebuilt with new sliding glass doors put on. Typical experience went like this...she didn't know who to call, used the yellow pages and several recommendations from friends who themselves had limited knowledge. Ended up calling a buddy of a painting contractor who is a friend.
This guy calls back, shows up when he says he will, is polite, and agrees the original deck is an abortion (what I had been telling her so he is aces in my view). He gives an estimate because he doesn't know what he will see when he opens the back wall of the house. He will doing a T&M job. She wants to know if she should get three estimates. I tell her if your bullsh!tometer doesn't go off then hire the guy. End of story...he is proceeding well and she is happy.
Moral. Promptness, professionalism, politeness
The main reason for multiple bids, in my opinion, is to establish a ballpark price. I've had roofing bids vary by a factor of 3 (though I'll admit that the high bid was highest on the BS meter as well).
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
I have had enough bad experiences that I feel like I can comment.
As others have said:
Return calls. If I am calling out of the blue then within 24 hours is fine. If you are working on my place then within a half day.
Daily contact while you are working on my place. The carpenter I have used 5 times now has it just right for me, call me about 1/2 hour after I get home from work if it is important/requires a decision for the next day. Call me while on the way to my place if it is just a check-in/update. I have had a chance to look at yesterday's progress and have feedback for him (this last bit is was 95% positive feedback).
Lead times are fine. If you are busy/booked tell me so. I can usually wait weeks (months for repeat hires) for the person I like/want. To me it is a sign of a well run biz to have work lined up.
Keep my place clean. You can smoke on-site but I don't want to see butts in my grass. I hired a carpenter about a year ago to do some joist replacement and so on. I was totally happy with all his work but he never picked up at the end of the day, he even left his tools all over the place. I can't count how many butts I picked out of my gravel driveway. He was only on-site 3 days.
My personal comments:
If you are going to work on multiple projects, just let me know.
I will always let you know a budget if you are working time and materials. I understand renovations are tricky to estimate. You never know what is going to come up once you rip it apart. If you are going over budget let me know as soon as it is apparent. I can usually shift some $$ if I have time to do it.
If you are unclear what I want TELL ME! (see my rant on grading from a few months ago)
If the job is out of your scope - Tell Me. (see my rant on grading from a few months ago)
When I first meet somebody I am thinking about hiring I ask - "what is your specialty" don't answer "everything" everybody does something better than other things--fess up. Kitchens, baths, decks, trim...
I always have a couple of things I am very focused/fixed on, I will tell you what they are. Everything else is negotiable. If I say the old T&G ceiling stays, then it stays. Don't bring it up everyday that it would be better to sheet rock over it. If I wanted a house that looks just like every other house on the block you would not be here, I would have bought a cookie cutter instead of an eclectic fixer upper.
Whew. All for now
LOL!!! DanT
Gee Huck, what you think of my comments mean so little. Sorry
Your the one that read things/assumed things in the post that just were not there and now you don't like the repercussions that come from it, to bad.
BUT, That was a very mature response!
Doug
Edited 1/6/2008 4:44 pm ET by DougU
allllrightythen!View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
My advice (as a contractor) to the home owners is ....
1. Get at least three quotes.
2. If possible, get quotes from contractor that have done work for people you know.
3. Talk to them. Ask questions. Get a sense of their character.
4. Don't use price as the only deciding factor, sometimes you get what you pay for.
5. ...but be careful, some times you "don't" get what you pay for.
6. I like contractors that aren't willing to compete for a job. The price is what it is because you always have the choice to choose a different contractor.
7. I like contractors that are willing to cooperate with other contractors instead of competing with them. Cooperation with other contractors benefits everyone.
8. Finally, it's your house, If you have done your homework, then TRUST YOUR GUT !!!!!!!!!
Dave
Journeyman: I know this thread has lost its way a little but I would like to respond. I am NOT a carpenter and so hire out almost all of the work on my house. I have had good and horrible experiences with contractors and can boil down my list to the following:
1. Do not treat me like I know nothing. I am not as smart as the professional but I have some limited knowledge and really resent being told that its too complicated to explain.
2. A contract is convenient but it applies to both sides. If I have a problem or complaint about workmanship or materials its fine to pull out the language of the contract and show me where the contractor is correct. But let me do the same. When I do refer to the contract don't establish a hard-line a tell me it - the contract - is for general guidance only. Either we ignor the document or we both are bond by its provisions.
3. Don't lie to me. Don't show up drunk. Don't try to cover mistakes with caulk and paint. Don't smoke dope on the job. Don't refuse to answer my phone calls.
I actually had to ask to contractors who I hired to finish my basement - a $45,000.00 job to leave after 8 months on the job. Every night I came home form work my house reeked of marijuana smoke and loud ZZ-Top music. I hired a painter for the same job. He started the paint job BEFORE the drywall guy had done the last skim coat. Said drywall guy told him okay but when I talked to drywall contractor he told me he never had such a conversation. All refused to meet with me and have a three way conversation. My last job was a kitchen and it was a real joy to work with the contractor and all of the employees. Very professional and informative. We are - most of us - still golf buddies to this day. Met them all first at my house for the remodel job.
The last - kitchen - tile guy was so drunk he could no open grout can. I had to do it for him. Best tile job I have ever seen. But would like it if he were sober at 8:00 am.
Mike
On selecting a contractor and what to expect and knowing what you will get.Well the problems I find that most homeowners have all boil down to putting more emphasis on the bid (meaning what’s it going to cost me.) and less emphasis on selecting a contractor known for doing Quality work at a fair price. Because they all really want a bargain instead of quality work for a fair price they have a WalMart mentality but expect top quality service at that a bargain price.Thing is quality materials and skilled labor are expensive so figure what you want to spend then set aside 30% and that is your budget.
The 30% is for unexpected things that can come up even in new construction and always seem to on remodeling.When you call a contractor ask for references then call them don’t just look at pictures of their work. Also pick a contractor based on referrals from people you trust not the handyman adds in the local trader newspaper. The best contractors and I mean those that have been around awhile and have a reputation of providing quality work at a fair price most of the time work time and materials or cost plus only. And if you push them for a fixed bid it will be the highest bid you get 99% of the time. And If you are demanding (by that I mean you can not tolerate even a small problem along the way) and want to hold contractor to a fixed bid then expect to pay more. After all if they can not charge you for some unexpected delay or increase in material costs then don’t expect to get a refund if they do not run into any. Think about it if he has been in this business for even a little while then he knows things can happen that will cost him more so if he is going to be held to a bid then he better include the charge for those things upfront even if they do not happen. It’s like getting a fixed bid for a well vs. a per foot bid You can gamble that you will hit water at 200 ft and go with the per foot price or you can pay more for a fixed bid that guarantees you will get X amount of water no matter how deep they have to go for a fixed price. But if they get plenty of water at 100ft don’t expect the well driller to give you back any money he was taking the risk on the fixed bid and it worked in his favor but he could just as easily hit no water even after 1000 feet and had to start again in another location to find water.Remember you are hiring a person if you want 30 years experience then wait for the 3rd generation contractor with plenty of experience and hundreds of jobs behind them. I guarantee he learned from his dads mistakes who learned from his dads who learned from his own and he made a few as he learned from his dad but all those mistakes are why he is more likely not to make the same ones on your project. But that is also why he is busy and costs more. Real experience takes time and a lot of jobs to get and worth paying for.Also is he the right contractor for your job? They all have their strengths and weaknesses. Does he do the type of work you need done all the time? Don’t hire a guy who does all new construction to do a historic restoration or to do an addition on an older home. Try to hire a guy that is familiar with the homes in your area and has worked on projects like yours in house like yours they are more likely to know what to expect. Also go to the job he is on now look at his work is it the level of finish you want? One persons quality work is unacceptable to another.Now that said you can Hire a quality new guy known for doing great work at a good price but don’t expect that everything is going to go smooth all the time he is learning even if he has a lot of jobs behind him we learn more every day. We all have strengths and weaknesses if you can’t deal with a few bumps along the way then you need to hire only the best and you will probable have to fit your project into their schedule not find a contractor that will work within yours.
Problem is they may not be in your budget ether. So you may want to pick the new guy just check with his references first that is much more important then how much he says the job will cost sure he must be able to do the job you want within your budget but checking references will tell you if he is fair about what he charges and that means more then a bid. After all do you really know how much your job should cost? Checking with others as to what they paid (as long as it was recent materials and labor go up all the time just like anything else) is of more use to you then asking some guy you found in a directory to tell you what they will charge.I have found the Homeowner that hired the best they could find without caring how much it cost them was always happy with how the job turned out and would hire the same contractors again. And they do not feel over charged they often feel they got a great deal. At the same time the guy down the road who paid half as much called 3 contractors to submit bids with out first knowing anything about them or doing any research and hires the only guy to return his call is often not happy with the job and feels he was cheeted as well.Hire the right guy for the job then pay them what they want and on most remodeling it will be time and materials. If you picked the right guy you will get a quality job at a fair price. If you are not sure enough about the contractor to except a time and materials bid then you did not do enough checking before hiring him.
Remember staying on budget is just part of doing a quality job so ask his references what types of extras they ran into on their job if any. If you can’t take the time to actually call references then you deserve what you get.SO CALL REFERENCES ASK QUESTIONS
Edited 1/14/2008 5:41 pm ET by MFournier
How good you are is of no importance, if you are a bad businessman! Call me back when I leave a message. So many times I've had Contractors come and spend time with me talking about what I want done and then I never hear from them. Just be a good businessman.
Someone please tell me again why I wanted To be self employed? This discussion is making me rethink what I want to be when I grow up.
Russell
"Welcome to my world"
A lot of self-employed people shouldn't be, but they've convinced themselves they can't be happy working for someone else.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
We had multiple bids for a large new home construction. We didn't go w/the highest or the lowest. The highest bid was way over anyone elses and he kept saying that he wanted to make sure we had lots of room for our allowances - I felt that he was just pumping up the bid and it would be hard to pull back to a reasonable amount. The lowest bidder seemed to feel slighted that he was doing the job at all and had a particularly sensitive attitude when asked questions about his bid. He also had a constract written up that basically said we couldn't talk in any way to the subs on the job etc... I felt it wasn't going to be a good working relationship and it's a lot of money so if I have a question I'm going to ask. We went with the builder we felt was the most straightforward and willing to work on a cost + fee basis, worked hard to get the best bids for us from subs and suppliers and didn't mind us asking questions and expecting answers.
The project is underway, so far it's been pretty good but we have some trouble w/the HVAC contractor who bid one set of equipment and supplied another (with the higher invoice price of course) apparently thinking we wouldn't notice. The builder should have caught this so I'm a bit disappointed, but we are trying to work it out.
Open communication, honesty and hard work are the key.
JCT and Everyone else,
Thanks for starting this thread! It's been very interesting and informative to read the homeowners replies and the contractors responses as well.
I'm a General Contractor and have built some large expensive homes (turnkey), a lot framing jobs large and small, to the smallest of decks.
What I've learned is Construction is a hard business!! Especially for those of us who follow the rules, pay our fees and cost and try and provide a quality product that you can step back and be proud of.
It's not an easy living and it's very expensive to run - if your running your business the way your suppose to!
I see both the Homeowners side and the Contractors side very clearly. I just finished a simple little wall that needed to be framed in a lady's shop. She said that she made a dozen phone calls and had one guy had finally called her back and actually come out and got started on this wall. He barely got the bottom plate down then had something he had to go take care of and then never came back to finish the job.
I've known her for sometime and had met her through our sons, who play basketball together and went and took a look at the job and the next day came out and finished it for her, closed it up , set a door and window and it was done.
She was so appreciative and thankful! She was amazed that I had come out and did what I said I would do! It was a simple job and I was amazed that the other guy had bailed on her or hadn't received phone calls form others.
Now here's the gray area for you Homeowners!! I did this job because I knew her and she was a real nice lady and it's also going to lead to Addition on her house.
I only charged her cash $300.00 for the day and didn't run it through my books!!!! (You guy's didn't here that!) Had it been a cold call I still would have responded in the same way and would have done the job right and when I said I would. But to run it through my books it would have been $900.00 because that is how expensive it is for a legit contractor to work. I can't live and run a business on cash and very rarely do so. This job was an exception to the rule because of the situation.
So the question to the Homeowners is...Are you willing to pay the $900.00 for a Legit, Qualified Contractor? or Are you only willing to pay the $300.00 or less and have guy's bail on you or not call you back?
Here's how you find a good Contractor! Go to your local Contractors Association and get some referrals. Do some home work and call them, interview them, see their work, talk to their past clients! "Spend Your Time" on finding someone to do your job. Then as Mike Smith has posted it's our job to sell ourselves to you! Instead of us spending 100 of hours on bids, pick your contractor first and we are more than willing to find you the best products and prices as long as your willing to pay our costs for being in business on top of that!
It's a hard game and some owners may find the situation I had with this lady but in general if you looking for "Handyman Hanks" prices ( sorry if there's a Handyman Hank out there, just an example), but you want "Class A Constructions" professionalism and quality work... then I'm sorry to say you won't find it and you will continue to find lowball prices, poor work and guy's in over their heads.
My 2 Cents,
Howie
For $900 I'll put the wall in myself. But little old ladies are rarely very avid DIYers.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
DanH,
She wasn't a little old lady, her and her husband needed the work done and they don't have the skills or the knowledge to do it themselves so they need to hire someone.
If you can do it yourself that's great! I feel the same way myself! But for people that have no construction knowledge and have to trust the person their talking to is telling them the truth is a hard thing to do.
And to help Homeowners..my point was to find a qualified person to do the work, call you back or even show up a suggestion would to be to go to a local Contractors Association or by referrals and do some leg work and spend their time to find the right Contractor for the job.
The numbers for the wall were just an example of paying cash for something or running it through a professional business. I understand your reaction to the costs, I react that way myself when I add them up and have to pay all those cost to run my business!
As long as Homeowners keep hiring unqualified and supposedly licensed contractors to do low price, sub-par work and are willing to live with it, but complain how bad the contractors are... then there will never be a level playing field for the Contractors that try to play the game right and do the right thing.
Apples and Oranges are not the same and you can not compare the two!
Howie
Edited 1/22/2008 3:54 pm ET by howhighlites
The numbers for the wall were just an example of paying cash for something or running it through a professional business.
As long as Homeowners keep hiring unqualified and supposedly licensed contractors to do low price, sub-par work and are willing to live with it, but complain how bad the contractors are... then there will never be a level playing field for the Contractors that try to play the game right and do the right thing.
Kinda contradicting yourself there aren't you, cowboy?http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
How so?
Part of my point is that this is where much of the conflict occurs -- where there's a gap between what the HO can do and what the contractor can do cost-effectively. Eg, I'll generally do any work that would be less than about $1K if contracted, and that's about the lower limit of what a full-fledged contractor can efficiently do.There is a niche in there for competent (and hopefully licensed/insured) "handymen", but regulations make life harder and harder for them to be fully above-board.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
I think your right, that could be a good niche to be in if you can make the numbers work. I couldn't afford to switch my business to small jobs like that all the time, it's to expensive.
Problem is that you can't make the numbers work in many parts of the country. By the time you jump through licensing and insurance hoops you can't afford to do any job under $2K.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Knock yourself out.
Not that you can't.
I thought it was a good post.
Informative, in a real life way. He layed all the info out there. Explained it well, and gave an out for people who don't want to spend.
You don't.
Don't hire him - or me.
We may agree on this. You are not his customer. Other people are.
That may be an important point to this thread.
People should open their eyes to understand what they want, and are willing to pay for. I will not take a customer who tells me " I will clean up".
That is not my client base, not my service. Not what I want to do.
There are people who want a " side job guy " to do their project and are willing to save money, ok.
That is not what I offer, ok.
It doesn't have to someone's fault just because it's not a good fit going in, it just gets ugly when people force it.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
> You are not his customer. Other people are.That was my point -- there's a problem with projects under $1-2K in that the average contractor simply can't charge a "reasonable" fee and still make money on them. And legit "handymen" have increasing trouble with licensing, insurance, et al. Leaving only the fly-by-nighters to do the work.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
dan...
<<<<there's a problem with projects under $1-2K in that the average contractor simply can't charge a "reasonable" fee and still make money on them.>>>
i think they can, but they have to be willing to charge what they are really worth
and there are lot's of people out ther willing to pay what it's really worth
your statement sounds a (little) like.... "well, i wouldn't pay that much , so how can i charge that much ?"
if it costs $500 to hang a $200 door... then that's what we charge..
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
The problem is that $300 wall would cost $300 (well, maybe $500) as a part of a larger project, but with the overhead of a regular contractor it jumps to $700-1K when done on its own. It's the same reason that there are $300 hammers in military contracting.
If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader
Instead of us spending 100 of hours on bids, pick your contractor first and we are more than willing to find you the best products and prices as long as your willing to pay our costs for being in business
Just got in tonight after a long day, and I'm too tired to say much, but I wanted to say that there is a lot of good sense in that statement, as long as, like you say, they do their homework in picking the contractor.View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product†– Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com