This section of Breaktime is chock-full of horrendous stories of contractors being abused and bilked by irritating and dishonest homeowners. For some contrast, here is a whine from a HO/DIYer: Why don’t contractors return my calls? I need to have some exterior trim and paint work done on my 1905 house. It will require a ladder longer than 40 ft. or scaffolding (I know this because I have done the work up to that point.) The job will involve reshingling (cedar), soffit repair, prep and paint. I’m guessing a few thousands ($$) worth.
I’ve called several contractors, and a few of these have even come to take a look. They never call back, even when I pester them. Two points — first, it would be a courtesy to tell a HO that the contractor would rather not take on the job due to too much work, job is out of specialty, etc. Second, having enormous respect for professionals, I would gladly pay what is asked. I am definitely not looking to bargain someone down from a fair price. But I never even get a quote.
Any advice?
Replies
Javier,
I think the GCs you've talked to are probably not the best business people and their "bedside manner" leaves a lot to be desired. You deserved a prompt reply, even if it was a "no thank you, we're booked solid" or "no thank you, we're not really qualified to do your work".
I would suggest that you keep trying. There have to be competent contractors out there. From the post, it's not clear what trade would be involved. You allude to shingling. Perhaps you could try a roofing company rather than a GC?
John
Javier- I think ALOT of contractors, when out of their comfort zone in the bid process of a job, will just look to find another easier job, and let the more difficult ones go. You do, However, deserve the courtesy of a returned call.
I'm sorry, you are getting side stepped, but the real truth of the matter is that there is usually less profit in a job like yours, because of the unknowns, but if they are covered in a well written contract no one should be afraid to quote the job.
The labor involved just setting up and taking down scaffolding would probably blow the bid out of proportion. Once up there, you might find more than just a little soffit repair, especially if your roof has leaked long enough to rot the soffit. I don't know who you have been calling, but roofers are not interested in remodeling. Look for Contractors-remodeling and repair.
Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Edited 2/10/2003 1:03:13 PM ET by Pro-Dek
This subject has been brought up before over the years. While it certainly isn't good form, it seems all too common.
Around here, I think the contractor are so busy they don't really NEED to do bids. There are plenty of people begging them to just show up and do something. So doing bids doesn't need to be a big priority for them.
The contractors can't find help, or can't get their guys to show up. So they're constantly behind, and get nothing but complaining from their customers.
They tend to go work for the customers who are complaining the loudest. Which in the end only trains their customers to complain louder and louder to get their job moved up on the list.
I agree that it's frustrating, and is rude to NOT return calls. Don't really have any solutions, unfortunately.
Hope your situation works out...
If you filled a toilet bowl with water from the Bermuda triangle, would it eliminate the need to flush?
I'll agree with everything that's been said so far, I think, but here's some more. A lot of contractors don't like the mix and match style of buffet home improvements. If I read your post right, you have already done a lot of the work on your home. Sounds like you did the easy part and now you want them to do the hard part. Even if you want them to get paid well and you express that to them, there are still other concerns that I would adress with you if I were the one talking to you about it.
You want me to paint up high and do shingle repair up there. Normally, I start high and work down with paint so if I drip on your work or dirty it up from whatever I am doing above, who is responsible? You may have backed me into a corner where i need to lose money fixing work that I didn't make any profit off of in the first place. That's just a hint from what little I hear about the job but there may be reasons why it looks like a no-win situation for them.
Or it could be that you have just called all the loosers in town so far. Keep trying and ask them questions.
Excellence is its own reward!
1. You did the easy part, and left the hard part for "me." Well that'll cost more and I've never had someone willing to pay it - even though they say "name your price."
2. I don't like following someone else's work - especially if they will be watching mine. They tend to "know it all" and are not bashful about telling me what to do, or how they would do it, or respect how hard the job is, after all, they did it and are only asking me to finish the job because they didn't have the time or specialized equipment.
3. You have exterior work you want done in the middle of winter. The weather won't permit me to work on it safely or properly for another copuple of months. Sure, there'll be a few days here and there but I am already booked for those days doing interior work and am not interested in getting calls from Clients chomping at the bit. I'll call you when the climate changes. Then I'll have a better idea of timing. Sorry but you not at the top of the list of possibles, yet.
Just a few thoughts or ideas of what THEY may be thinking. Sorry they are so blunt. Just got a call from a hot Arch to meet for a quick "bite". Gotta run!
I get calls similar to this all the time----sometimes I am interested---sometimes not.
1) If I currently have several employees there is no way I am interested in even looking at a job like this. No way I can even break even on the job with a crew involved.Most of the time I try to work alone----and in those times I would be interested in similar projects----I love soffit and fascia repair for example.
2)the homeowner usually UNKNOWINGLY insults the sensibilities of the contractor when he calls.Basically the homeowner in this case has done the easier work---but wants a pro to bail him out on some nastier stuff. Homeowner feels he is being reasonable----but the contractor has a different perspective.
3) I am often asked to do lots of stuff I am perfectly qualified for----but I simply am not interested in doing----for numerous possible reasons.when I say " sorry but we are not interested in that project" the homeowner wants to know " Why not?" This can become unpleasant-----I don't owe anyone an explaination why I am turning down their project.
4)the guy who asked the original question seems to be a nice enough guy----but I can't quite believe him when he implies money won't be a real issue. Money is always,always,ALWAYS an issue on these projects. If money wasn't an issue on some level---he would have had the whole thing done professionally in the first place.Again---I don't think the guy is being unreasonable ---from his view point------but at the same time I can't be suprised that contractors aren't lining up to take on a PITA project and loose money in the process.
5)I generally am able to answer all calls as they come in---even on roof top----just so I don't have to return calls like this.you probably wouldn't like my phone manners though---- I say " sorry,but we are not interested in a project like that. thanks for calling though." then I simply hang up.
Thanks for your comments (and thanks to all who have responded). The consensus seems to be that my job sucks but that I am nevertheless entitled to a call back. Fair enough.
Several posters implied that I was insulting the contractor by asking him to wrap up the hardest part of a job that I had begun. Frankly, that reaction hadn't occurred to me, so I appreciate the opportunity to see more of the situation from the GC's point of view. In my defense: isn't it true that many discussions on Breaktime and Knots emphasize the need for a HO or DIYer to know when to call a pro? I'm thinking of the thread relating to garage roofing and the current disscussion on Knots regarding rewiring a table saw motor. So, guys, I thought that was exactly what I was doing.
The jobs that I need to get done are more coherent (of a piece) than my first post implied -- it's two gable ends and a dormer. I certainly understand why no one would want to come and paint the last two clapboards.
So - I've learned that the job isn't appealing (duh, could have guessed that, right?) and that contractors blow off potential clients for a variety of reasons. So I guess I will keep trying to find someone while understanding the reasons for the general reluctance to take on the job.
Shazlett is right that money is an issue, and that if it wasn't, I would have had the entire job done professionally. My main point was that I wasn't interested in lowballing a GC. If the job is tricky, I expect to pay accordingly.
As I understand this the only thing keeping you from doing the rest of the job is not having a ladder. Working that high off a ladder is slow and tiring so most contractors would probably use scaffolding or a man lift which you would pay for anyway. So get the job scaffolded and do it yourself.
As for calling back there is no good excuse but I have to admit there's a few PIA customers I've done it to.
Where is the job located?
Back to the issue at hand.
1. A pro calls back. "no thanks". Very easy if you let go of your "I can do anything" ego! Forget about the motive of the HO. Get over your hurt feelings, your feelings of being insulted, for reasons real or imagined.
2. A classy pro calls back with the name of a possible, qualified sub.
3. A classy, well prepared pro takes the time to get all the info over the phone, gets an idea if the HO has realistic expectations of the outcome and the cost, then, in the comfort of his office / truck, politely declines upon realizing the job ain't his cup of joe,, and if inspired, give the name of a reliable specialist,
or
marks up the job to allow him to sub that specialist and make money to go to Florida.
Boy, Have I walked in your shoes!!
It really bugs the heck out of you when such a thing happens, especially when the old lady is nagging the guff out of you to get the job done. Seems like you're caught between a rock and hard place.
This issue is what has caused me to develop my DIY skills to the point I have. When I get that story, I simply do it myself and say, "screw 'em."
But really, the other posters are right on. Yes, the problem seems to lie with ineffective contractors, but I've learned that much of the problem really is with me.
As one poster says, there are different types of guys. Good, not-so-good, and poor.
But when it comes down to it, you should be able to deal with any of them. If you can't, part of that problem lies with your lack of, or inability to properly communicate your needs and failing to understand the other guys point of view.
Furthermore, you must understand that these guys are not standing by the phone waiting for your call. If they are truly the one you want, he's already been taken by someone with a more attractive job. Therefore, you have to make your job more attractive to him than the other guy's. That is not always more pay.
I've found the definition of making my job more attractive is to have the working conditions suitable for him to come in, do the work, and get out as quickly and easily as possible. It means having a refrigerator full of water bottles or sodapop (no hootch), snacks from time to time. And once a week, buy them lunch (not at McD's, but a very good deli sub or such).
It means full understanding of what is expected. For instance, yesterday the plumber showed up (as scheduled and on time - see following for why) to do the rough plumbing for a partial finishing of my basement. The bid was made three weeks ago by his boss. When the boss came out to see what was to be done, I provided him with COMPLETE, detailed precise drawings of what was to be done. I showed him the building permit I had already pulled for him. Showed him where the toilets were, the drinks, how to get in and out. He gave me a bid that frankly caused me to choke a bit, but I said, "If you do what I want, how I want, and according to code so the inspector will simply smile and say, 'great, good work,' I'll pay your price." Yesterday, when the guy showed, I took him on a tour of what is to happen, laid out the plans on the pool table outside the basement area along with the permit and written bid and precisely measured where everything was to go. Then I brought the wife downstairs to meet him and again went over what was to happen with both her and him. Made sure how she was to know when the water would be turned off and for how long. Basically made sure that everyone had realistic expectations.
In short, I treated him with respect. The job was done quickly, very well, and not a drop of dirt anywhere. He returned the respect.
But perhaps the most important thing I've learned is these guys are not as well educated as I am. Please, I don't wish to sound arrogant, the point is, my education means that I should know the proposed worker is at a disadvantage. If I want something from him, I need to inspire him. I need to make him WANT to put me at the top of his to do list the next day. I want to make him believe my job is the best opportunity for him that day.
Furthermore, I must understand that I am in a better economic situation that he. Accordingly, I must further understand that I underwrite (assume responsibilty) my job, not him. If something happens that interrupts the process, it's my responsibilty to either correct it or help correct it. I don't put all the fault on someone who simply cannot help it or prevent it.
But treat them as you want to be treated. With RESPECT.
Getting back to your job. As GEOr... said, get some scaffolding and do it yourself. It ain't that hard. And you may learn something.
When I was calling around for a contractor to install windows recently I called 3 different contractors. There were 2 of them that answered the phone. One waited 3 days to return my call guess which one didnt get considered. I guess if they are busy then they wouldnt of been available to do my work in the time frame I wanted anyway.
At Darkworks Customer satisfaction Job One..Yea yea were all over it , I ll have it done by next Tuesday Oh yea I need another draw.........
I am glad that your method of dealing with the plumber worked for you.
All that aside, your post is arrogant and condescending.
You start out with how you have developed your DIY skills to the point that you can tell contractors "screw 'em".
Followed up with your superior education.
And let's not forget that you have more money than them.
I got some news for you - it's a pretty good chance that your wrong in your comparisons to a good many qualified and successful contractors.
If your personality comes across anything like your posting, I would expect a lot of contractors would not be interested in even a courteous "no thank you".
Treating someone with respect is considering them worthy, not showing them where the pop cooler is.
Terry
How does an education give you an advantage? I have a set of cousins - 4 kids in the family- one is a contractor H.S. grad; one is a lawyer; one is a shrink; & one is a pharmecutical sales rep w/masters degree. Guess who makes more money hands down with no disagreement from the other siblings & totally obvious to anyone who knows them? That's right - the H.S. grad. who went to college for one week & said who needs it.
How come my buddy with the masters degree and is now out of work allways talks about his brother-in-law with the landscaping biz like the guy is a genius? Always works, has the boat , etc.
"Please, I don't wish to sound arrogant" - well you do - get over yourself.
Well, I guess I came across the wrong way. I'm sorry.
I thought it was just me getting the impression this was a caricature from a sitcom like The Nanny.
What he said that I would have taken as an insult is that he measured and marked every thing out. That tells me that he thinks i am too stupid to figure it out and measure for my self. He treats me stupid so i am going to act stupid. He takes responsibility so I will let him. I don't want the blame when he finds out that he put it two inches over in the wrong direction but after all, he did it. Duh, I don't no nuthin any way, just did wha he dun told me, dhuh.
He treats me stupid because in his mind, I am stupid. With that given preconception, there is no way I am going to overcome it so I won't invest the time to try.
Meantime this stupid sucker is making out a bill.
Ka-ching!
Hear the ring?$$$$$$$$$$$4.
Excellence is its own reward!
I guess when I piss off piffin, I've really f'ed up.
Interesting how situations get interpreted other than intended.
I said I was was sorry.
Hey, Im not pissed, just reporting my impression of what you wrote. Most of what you say here is good stuff, but here it came off as a caricature. I've made some stupid posts of my own too you know.
But I was still typing apparently when you posted that appology, if you will notice from the time stamps on the posts.
Tjhe point you were trying to make was a good one but it got lost in the abundance of detail and elaboration. Showing respect is a good thing. I do it with my subs by asking,
What can I do to help get it all ready?
When do you think you can do it?
Do you want to do it this way or that way?
What do you expect out of me to make it happen?
When would you like to get paid?
All of these questions leave him in control of his schedule and methods and brings up the question of money in a non-threatening way. My subs all know that they won't have to fight with one another for space and that i will go the second mile for them to makle the job go right.
They also know that I will be pissed if they say they will have it done this week and they don't show up to start 'till next week with out a phone call. I can live with changes. That is part of life just like changes in the weather. But I like a weather forecast. No sense in trying to control the clouds. It ain't gonna happen..
Excellence is its own reward!
Here are a couple scenarios
1. The level of contractor your seeking has to wear many hats. For the most part he/she is a self-employed trades person and the "business" aspect is not their field of expertise or even partly enjoyable so it gets avoided or put off.
2. When you call one of these contractors you're likely calling while their working or driving in the truck. So your info gets scribbled on the back of a receipt or some other obscure piece of paper. Your phone number gets lost and there is no way to call you back.
3. Another take on the time you call the contractor may be up to his eyeballs in the current project once he hangs up the phone with you all of his attention goes back to the problems at hand. Not until a couple weeks later does he remember. Wholly Chit… I forgot to call…. Then it's embarrassing to call. Most feel they lost you anyhow after a blunder like that, so why waste the time.
4. Sometimes customers will indicate that contractor's services will be needed after an event/task. In some cases it's pointless to measure/bid or even look at a project until those loose ends are tied up, so the contractor puts the ball back into the customers court to call when this is taken care of. BUT the customer doesn't realize this and waits to hear form the contractor.
These are personal experiences at one time for me. I'm working on item number one.
# 2 happened to me just recently, however I called the guy and apologized profusely three months after I found his phone number.
#3… well… A couple times now I've remember in the middle of the night from a deep sleep. I call no matter how embarrassed I feel. (Not in the middle of the night though :-).
#4 happened with a friend, he was waiting for me and I was waiting for him to let me know he was ready.
If the job is unique or specialized, well, they're specialists, that why they're being called. If they can't get to it, or have no interest, due to setting up staging, not their field of expertise, time constraints, etc., they should explain that early on, (first telephone conversation) and bow out. It saves the HO time, makes alot better impression than playing the invisible man. And it's pretty lame to say, "I don't want to do the high up work cause I'll splatter paint on the stuff you did below" Well, hey, there's always stuff below, cars, shrubs, walkways, foundations, etc. Again, that's one of the reasons you're hiring it out.
No return calls/no follow-up has happened to me quite frequently in the past. One of the reasons I avoid dealing with contractors. It's not unique, by any means to the trades, but nevertheless it's darn rude. Get alot of that with customer service/billing inquiries, etc. as well.
I believe that many who work in the trades are tend to lean towards lacking in the customer service skills dept. Which is OK, and is understandable, but is no excuse for basic follow up and courtesy.
BTW, if you're dealing with a CS rep in a large company, (telephone, bank, etc) and are worried they're just blowing you off, ask for a ticket # (or case #) to be provided, this will force the rep to log the call on their system with when/who/what was said.
GC
Javier,
I would be happy to call you and say "no thanks". Just post your phone number so I can call.
Cold calling contractors is alot of frustrating work. Have you tried your local builders association? They may have a lead for you.
Godspeed
WAHD
You read the garage post . Good .
If a pro is a pro he does exellent work. If hes a pro , he calls back . Period. Otherwise you didnt need him ever again anyway if this is how he runs his business. Better you found it out before you had to wait to get the work done , "after he started it ". Write his name down and all others who have treated you this way . Be sure to never call their phone again for anything . They dont deserve a nice customer at this point in this post. Pros treat other people as they would like to be treated if they are worth their salt.
Money has been mentioned , but the people you have dealt with will never know because they never took a strike at the ball. I see two options you should have recieved;
1. Im busy and the job is hard and small . I believe Ill pass , but thanks for the call. I can reccomend,.......... or I can do it in the spring if thats not too far out for you? [Gives me a big window to schedule it ]
2. [Thinking to himself ,...I really dont want this job , but,...]
Well, the lift will cost you a hundred an hour, and I get 65 an hour for a job like that . Of course I get 20 percent on top of that for overhead. I can be there Monday. [ Balls in your court ,..... ] At least you had the final decision. Theres nothing wrong with bidding a job no one wants high.
I suggest you rent a lift and have some fun .
Tim Mooney
Ditto to all Tim said. I return all calls and usually that day or first thing the next. I also finish homeowner started work. But I have little competition. No one else in my area does. If I am doing HO started work I don't guarentee anything they have bought or done and I am clear about the divisionary lines. And its expensive compared to other work as I am usually stuck trying to figure out what they were doing in the first place. Not that they did it poorly they just usually can't tell me exactly how they got where they are. DanT
javier,
Interesting post and resulting thread.
Years ago I was doing a job for a web site designer, ('96) and her Microsoftie hubby. I got to talking about what she did, saw the web potential, and asked her if she wanted to trade me a website for some work. Her reply: "You don't need one, you return your calls.".
Now, obviously, times have changed a bit, (by the way, great website PRO-DEK, you're a neighbor of mine in Issaquah.), but I still return every call, e-mail and carrier pigeon, (except for that one unfortunate Thanksgiving incident, when we ran out of turkey).
I know alot of guys, in a lot of trades. I can usually find someone. Do I take a slice for myself ? Yep. But you see, not all of my buddies return their calls. (Hey, this customer's name sounds really familiar...).
skipj