Replies

1. 
   bill_1010 | Mar 24, 2002 05:14am | #1

   It seems two-fold. The newer contractors (and older ones) dont know about quality.  And people today (customers) really dont know good quality from bad quality, until its too late.

   Most people dont stay in houses more then 5 yrs until later down the road.  And when the quality contractors bid, they are shocked and figure the cheaper bidder will do the exact same thing, since you know there is only one way to do it.....

   We live in a disposable world... Quality only exists in commercials with bikini clad blondes driving cars, or dudes kayaking down some remote river.

   Why have quality that costs something when you can have the image of quality that costs much cheaper....

2. 
   Schelling | Mar 24, 2002 05:33am | #2

   I don't agree that there is no concern for quality today. Certainly there are many customers who tell me that they are not primarily interested in price but that they want a top quality job that will not give them problems down the road. Some are willing to forego pieces of a project in order to have the quality they want.

   Is there plenty of shoddy work and cheap materials inappropriately used? You bet.  It has always been that way and some of the materials and techniques we use now are a vast improvement over the past.  If you are doing your best, don't worry about the competition. There will always be a place for good work and you will get your share.

3. 
   sjmerrette | Mar 24, 2002 06:05am | #3

   Puget I fully understand what you are saying. I recently had a client jokingly say to me that they were worried about me when they saw the love I was putting into shaping their columns. I was fixing a pair of colums that they had cut in half to attach around lally columns in their finished basement. I used expoxy and literally sculpted back all of the details that had been damaged. to see these columns now you would never know that they were cut. you only see two beautiful colums that look like they grew where they are.

   I know what you mean about about the passion. I am starting to get the reputation in both the building community and with clients as more people see my work that Steve is the guy you want to call for something that requires attention to detail. I'm nowhere near the fastest and I'm not cheap but as our good friend Jeff Buck has said "years from now someone will not look at what we have done and say...boy, that guy was fast!"

   I know this sounds funny, especially as just a couple of weeks ago I was having a real slow period, but we will be the ones who people will seek out. they will realize that cheap is not better and that if you want it done right you call someone who has his/her heart and soul in what they are doing.

   ¡Suerte!

   Steve

   S.J.MERRETTE Carpentry & Construction • Robesonia, PA

   Nothing is impossible...It just hasn't been done yet.

1. 
   Handydan | Mar 24, 2002 11:19am | #4

   I make my living fixing things that others can't or won't take the time to do.  If it is fixed as good as it can be, for a price that they can afford then all is well.  On to the next job, no looking back.  Take pride in the quality and the price will take care of itself..   As stated earlier,  later on in time no one will remember how cheap it was, only that it is broke again, and we should have done it right the first time.

   Dan tha handyman

1. 
   Dant45 | Mar 24, 2002 11:59am | #5

   As I have stated before one of my businesses is buying and rehabbing houses.  I can tell you without a doubt that it has nothing to do with "todays" carpenters, plumbers, electricians etc.  Crappy work has gone on for generations.  Do a wide variety of people in our society want "top quality work" and are willing to pay for it?  I doubt it.  I think most people want a good job at a reasonble price.  The extra that goes into a project often reflects the pride and care that the individual feels.  I admire craftsmen, but am not one.  I do good work, not museum quality, that will last and back my work, all for a fair price.  And I am busy.   Must work.  DanT

1. 
   rjw | Mar 24, 2002 02:44pm | #6

   DanT:

   I think the problem is more apparent if you get to look at "top end" homes being constructed today; there is some terrible work being done in some of them.

   In more and more cases, people who don't have a clue as to what they are doing enter the trades as "business owners" and underbid through ignorance.  The more knowledgable of the the other people in that trade feel pressure to meet those bids, and the downward spiral continues.

   When I ask for bids for work on my house, I always tell the contractors I will probably not be choosing the low bid, that I want quality construction (which I specify when asking for the bids) and that I expect to pay for it.  Often I still get the "gotta get this job so I'll bid it low" type of bid!

1. 
   exchef | Mar 24, 2002 08:41pm | #7

   i,m not sure but i think part of the problem arises at tech schools whos main goal is to crank students through to make thier bottom line look good and each gen of students is slightly less qualified than the last on and on (at least this was the case in the tech school that i went to 10 yrs ago)

2. 
   Mongo | Mar 24, 2002 08:59pm | #8

   The (lack of) quality in today's construction is in direct correlation to what the customer is demanding.

   What would happen if starting tomorrow,  customers demanded, and were willing to pay for, the finest work?

   Well, they're not, nor will they ever.

   People want quality...at lest they think they want quality, but not at the expense of square footage or an increase in budget.

   There is a small market out there where quality is an issue, and where quality of construction takes precedent over everything else. It's a tough market ot get into, but once you're there, the phone will never stop ringing and you;ll not have to spend another penny on advertising.

   In that upper-echelon market, there is another irony. Many of the people that can afford quality don't really notice or appreciate it. They know that the job was done well, with top-notch craftsmanship and materials, but they don't have a critical eye to note the care that went on to the work. If you ever get to work for someone who not only can afford, but truly appreciates fine work, that's a fine person to work for.

   Again, this isn't just the million-dollar or so-called pricey housing market I'm referring to. A million-dollar house can be a piece of garbage...just as a $20K addition, or even Steve's columns, can be a finely crafted work of art.

3. 
   Schelling | Mar 24, 2002 11:55pm | #10

   Why do you bid your jobs out? I can think of a number of reasons but not any that will give you greater quality. I realize that's not all that matters.

4. 
   jhausch | Mar 25, 2002 01:32am | #11

   I couldn't agree more about the comments regarding the problems benig exaserbated (sp?) on the high end.

   How on Earth could you build a 5 to 7k sqft house for the amount someone will pay, in the amount of time they demand, and still build in true craftsmanship?

   Don't get me wrong, there are some great craftsman out there.  They just aren't framing and trimming the McMansions.

   First memory that comes to mind is a 4 million dollar house in South Florida just of the ICW.  19 foot ceiings everywhere.  Kitchen Cabinets topped out at 8 or 9 feet.  Had to get up above the cabinets to move some of the decorator items.  Since the tops of the cabinets were not visible from the floor, they were not finished and all the decorator crap was sitting on shims to stay level.  Better yet was the hugh custom entertainment center.  Had to crawl inside to correct some wiring issues,  It looked like cabinetry, it was acutally framed with 2x4's and only the face was "finish quality".  Felt like a movie set. . . .  Steelkilt Lives!

5. 
   jimblodgett | Mar 25, 2002 03:17am | #12

   "Quality" is a relative term, right? If you are looking around at other's work, and your work is better in most cases, you'd conclude you're giving better value if the money's the same, wouldn't you?

   So there's your answer. To some people it's all about money. To others it's all about quality. The vast majority of customers fall somewhere on the continuum in between.

   I believe you are defined by your work. The farther in either direction from the average your work is, the fewer potential customers you'll have. As you get toward that end of the scale where customers care more and more about craftsmanship, and less and less about what it costs, there are fewer and fewer customers. But, if you then lower your standards to attract more middle of the spectrum customers, those at that upper end are less likely to seek you out. It's tough.

   From my own experience, and from watching the careers of lifelong friends in the same profession, tradespeople who provide acceptable quality, at reasonable rates, make a hell of a lot more money through the years than the artists who can charge 100.00/hour. They stay busier and most customers are plenty happy with the outcome of the relationship.

   Edited 3/24/2002 8:20:36 PM ET by jim blodgett

   Edited 3/24/2002 8:22:41 PM ET by jim blodgett

6. 
   sjmerrette | Mar 25, 2002 04:16am | #14

   Jim, you've touched on an interesting concept, "Acceptable Quality". I would think that the toughest part of finding that point is knowing or deducing what is acceptable to most. My problem is that I come from a background where  a micrometer was used to measure things and I'm now dealing with folks where a 1/16th off is nothing.

   As someone with far more experience than I, do you feel that most people don't get within inches of something to examine it but rather stand back and look at it from almost across the room? I still, literally get my nose into things to check them out when I probably shouldn't.

   Another thing is that I constantly look at how others did things real up close and pick it apart in my mind for my own education when I know full well that whoever it belongs to is more than satisfied with it. ( I repeat "in my mind", I would never say something to anyone about but rather just keep it to myself)

   I guess I'm always trying to outdo myself. Is it possible to be in competition with ones self?Steve

   S.J.MERRETTE Carpentry & Construction • Robesonia, PA

   Nothing is impossible...It just hasn't been done yet.

7. 
   jimblodgett | Mar 25, 2002 04:49am | #15

   Steve, you said "...do you feel that most people don't get within inches of something to examine it but rather stand back and look at it from almost across the room?"

   I think it's important to try and understand what people want, and are willing to pay for. From a house people want shelter. Beyond that they want a design that allows them to live a comfortable life within that shelter. Very few people's lives are enhanced if their molding is all coped tighter than a frog's ass, so they don't really care about that stuff, except they think that if they can SEE something less than the standards they expect, they assume there must be other problems they cannot see.

   If you want to work to micro standards, you might be better suited for another, more exacting profession, like making machinery or furnitire, or something that demands a lot more accuarcy than carpentry.

   I was just talking with a mason about this yesterday. He was taking great pains to make sure a flue liner was paralell to the wall it was passing up through. Truth of the matter is, if that thing leaned an inch in 8 feet, the smoke would still go through it like it's supposed to. You ever get the chance to see how some of those old chimney twist and turn as they corble their way up through a building?

   Carpentry is an interesting profession that way. There's room for the worker who goes all out, sweating from dawn to dusk and leaves a trail of off cuts and sawdust in their wake; and there's room for the worker who takes all day to painstakingly adjust a few cabinet doors. The trick is to find a portion of the trade that fits your natural rhythms.

   Then, of course, there's all that sales stuff people use to try and reach the clientele they want to work for. It's all very complex, Steve - way over my head, that's for sure. I just try to do my best every day and I find my standards rising the longer I ply my trade. It's a worthy profession.

8. 
   brownbagg | Mar 25, 2002 05:08am | #16

   I started building my house because I wanted it my way, not the way the community wanted. After close to a year building, I relize that you cannot build a perfect house. They will always be one warp 2x, a split end, concrete crack, something you cannot see from a distance but the perfectisn, would complain about. So Its my house I cry if I want too. So what is quality someone who does a good job at a cheap price, or someone who does a cheap job at a good price.

9. 
   Dant45 | Mar 25, 2002 02:55pm | #17

   Ditto to all that has been said.  I could not agree more with the statement about average work and the further you go in either direction the fewer customers there are.  I work mainly with people who want good, solid  repairs that will last years and still look nice.  But with off the rack components.  Artistic?  No.   Creative?  No.  Money maker? Yes!  I appreciate those who build cabinets from scratch and stain grade moulding at their shop.  I am just not that guy and my customers wouldn't pay for it anyway.  But my customers don't want crummy work either and there is a lot of that around.  

   I said it before in another thread that what you really sell to your regular customers is trust.  Quality is in the eyes of the beholder and some folks don't want or are not willing to pay for museum quality work, and I am not willing to do this for free or cheap.  DanT

10. 
    dw40 | Mar 25, 2002 08:01pm | #20

    Dan, my experience since moving to NYC 9 months ago completley mirrors your comment about selling the customer trust. (yeah, a bit off topic, but...) I am not the fastest nor the best, but can do an average-or-above job in a variety of materials. What I have found is that those things are IM-material. I have, in just the last few months, reached the point where I have more calls than time (knock on wood) and from what I hear from these clients it is because of three things:

    -I return their calls.

    -I show up.

    -I don't steal. (This applies to charging outrageous amounts for tiny jobs and believe-it-or-not, actual theft)

    Unbelievable to me that those three practices would raise me above most of the competition, but it seems to be true.

    Ditto to what everyone else said. One thing to remember is that most of those incredible old buildings, interiors, etc. (at least here on the East Coast)were built before those doing the work were paid a living wage, protected by workman's comp, etc. A buddy of mine is a metal fabricator who does some restoration work and he comes across stuff all the time where "There's just nobody you could call to do this now." That's sad, when techniques are forgotten, but the existence of this forum and the interest in it seems to refute the original post in this thread.

    Just my humble opinion.

    Don

11. 
    Piffin | Mar 31, 2002 02:28pm | #33

    Is it possible to be in competition with ones self?

    The trick is to find a portion of the

    trade that fits your natural rhythms.

    I think part of the key is in defining "professionalism"

    A professional makes the adjustments in his nature to know that when he's pouring concrete, the tolerances can be to a half inch and whenhe's fitting flush inset cab doors the next day his tolerances have changed to 1/32".

    Excellence is its own reward!

12. 
    jimblodgett | Mar 31, 2002 06:10pm | #34

    piffin - You said, "A professional makes the adjustments in his nature to know that when he's pouring concrete, the tolerances can be to a half inch and whenhe's fitting flush inset cab doors the next day his tolerances have changed to 1/32"."

    I agree with that, that there are definately different standards for different parts of the trade. No doubt. And a pro knows which are which and what matters. What I mean is not everyone is geared the same. Certain aspects of carpentry fit people who are real patient, while other parts of the trade apeal to people who enjoy strenuous physical exertion. Some people really get a charge out of sitting in anoffice working up bids, or overseeing other's work.

    There's room for everyone in the trades. But I think some people never identify what fulfills them and they get frustrated trying to do certain work they aren't geared for. Just thinking out loud...

13. 
    Piffin | Mar 31, 2002 07:10pm | #35

    Right on - bad choice of words I used.

    By NATURE

    By WILL

    different thingsExcellence is its own reward!

14. 
    Piffin | Mar 31, 2002 02:24pm | #32

    Is it possible to be in competition with ones self?

    There is no better competition!

    When you and your self are vying for first place the rest of the pack is left in the dust.

    Excellence is its own reward!

15. 
    rjw | Mar 25, 2002 03:20pm | #18

    "Why do you bid your jobs out? I can think of a number of reasons but not any that will give you greater quality. I realize that's not all that matters"

    I don't put many out to bid, only where I don't have a set group of people I know (e.g., my last driveway) or it's a big ticket item (addition) and I make it clear that I'm asking for bids to be sure my buget projections can actually carry the load and that I'm on the right page for the job.

    BTW, I offer to pay for bids involving any degree of time.

16. 
    Sancho | Mar 25, 2002 04:06am | #13

    Bob,

    I think the reason is the builders want it done the cheapest possible way so they hire piece workers who come in and bang it out. There is a tract or McMansions going in near my house actually I pass by them on my way to slim shadeys house, Thye are going for 470K the first phase was sold out on opening weekend. The buyers just see big, new and amenities, they dont really look at type of materials or the breathability of the house that will the lack of for effieciency will cause moisture damage in the very near future. I think the attitude about craftsmanship  that Steve Merrette and James DuHamel as well as others here describe how they feel about their trade and the things they build is not the same attitude that the piece workers have. If they dont hustle they dont get payed.    Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"

2. 
   TomMoen | Mar 24, 2002 10:58pm | #9

   DanT said:

   "I can tell you without a doubt that it has nothing to do with "todays" carpenters, plumbers, electricians etc.  Crappy work has gone on for generations." 

   That statement is right on.  People always seem to think that the worst craftsmanship, as well as the worst of everything, is happening in the present, no matter when that "present" was.  I think the good stuff lasts, while crappy stuff doesn't, so people naturally think that all the stuff done in the good old days was of much higher quality, because the only old stuff left is high quality.  That not 100% true, of course, but do you see my point?

   Tom

   Edited 3/24/2002 3:58:49 PM ET by Thomas Moen

4. 
   BossHog | Mar 25, 2002 03:35pm | #19

   I think Mongo is right;

   "The (lack of) quality in today's construction is in direct correlation to what the customer is demanding."

   You can't shove quality down someone's throat if they don't want it The homeowners don't care about quality, and 99% of the contractors I deal with don't either.

   .

   I think Thomas Moen made a good point when he said: "only old stuff left is high quality" Definitely true.

   .

   And Dan T. is right in saying "Crappy work has gone on for generations." We're not the first ones to complain about sloppy work.

1. 
   MadMom | Mar 25, 2002 08:23pm | #21

   As a "consumer" or customer, rather than a contractor, I have to agree with most of what has been said.  We recently moved out of a McMansion...over half a million dollar house, and yes, had to put in 2 x 4's to put the decorator crap above the cabinets.  Moved into a smaller McMansion and when I complained that they had forgotten to paint the top of the trim below the higher windows in the den, was told that "nobody sees that."  (Well, I saw it, even if I had to get up on a ladder to do it, and it piffed me off.)

   IMO, one of the problems that no one has mentioned is the tendency of realtors and "appraisers" (don't get me started on those idiots) to judge everything by the square foot.  A 2000 sq. ft house which is well built with quality details is worth, in their book, half of what a 4000 sq ft POS is worth.  That actually provides a dis-incentive for the contractors and builders to put in quality, particularly where it won't be seen.  If it "looks good" that's good enough. 

   Another problem is the whole bidding system.  After DD got her home in Colorado, we got bids on re-sealing the exterior (it's a log home.)  Bids ranged from a low of about $900 to a high of over $10,000.   Now, IMO, that's just not an acceptable range.  Yes, the high bidder claimed he was using a superior "system" and the low bidder didn't have a clue what he was doing (he was a young kid who didn't even bid enough to cover his materials.)  We went with someone who bid about $1500, and he did a good job.  We've found, at least in that area, some pretty major differences in contractor bids, and I haven't been able to pinpoint better (or poorer) quality as the reason.  Maybe somebody can explain this to me.   Is it just contractors thinking a gray-haired old lady and a cute blue-eyed blonde don't have a clue, so some of them are planning on getting rich on one job?  Or is it just some people being hungrier than others?  Insist on the real MadMom - accept no substitutes!

1. 
   jimblodgett | Mar 25, 2002 09:24pm | #22

   MadMom - you said "...so some of them are planning on getting rich on one job? Or is it just some people being hungrier than others?" In many cases companies WILL raise or lower their prices for a particular job, based on how much they want that job. I do. Do you think there's something fundamentally wrong with that?

1. 
   MadMom | Mar 25, 2002 09:28pm | #23

   No, Jim...I didn't mean to imply that at all.  We recently got bids for installing forced air heating, and one contractor said he was not busy for the next few weeks and would give us a 5% discount if we could start within 3-4 weeks.  I had no problem at all with that.  In a similar fashion, if a contractor told me he could push us up quickly for an additional sum and the timing were important, I would have no problem with that.  Also, if a job we requested were unusually difficult or something, I would expect to pay more, but I would also expect that most of the bids would be somewhat in line.  I guess it's just the idea of bids that varied by a factor of 10 to 1 for the same job that I had trouble understanding!Insist on the real MadMom - accept no substitutes!

1. 
   jimblodgett | Mar 25, 2002 11:34pm | #24

   Yeah, I think you have a legitimate question there. I think "throw out the high and the low bids and go with whoever you're most comfortable dealing with in the middle" is a fairly common notion, especially for a home owner who doesn't deal with these numbers on a regular basis.

   Truth of the matter is, our indutry is not very closely regulated, so anyone with a few hundred dollars can get bonded and insured and buy a contractor's license. Then it's a matter of learning how to bid, what the market will bear, what overhead really is and how to charge for it, then what about profits...even if someone is a superb craftsperson, learning to be a businesperson is a whole 'nother skill set.

   I didn't infer from your previous post that you found anything wrong with price adjusting to meet current market demands. Just thought it was an interesting point that came up. I think some people WOULD be surprised, and confused, if they knew what goes into giving a quote.

2. 
   VinceCarbone | Mar 26, 2002 02:37am | #25

   Jim,

   in my opinion quality is a matter of an  experenced worker.It's knowing where to spend time on something and where not to.

   Somethings are just as easy to do right as they are to do wrong. How many times have you come across walls not plumb or square, it's such a simple thing and makes every aspect of a project go smoother.That's just one of many.

   There're to many people out there that just don't know how to do the work they claim they can.And many more who aren't willing to spend the time it takes to learn.Vince Carbone

   Riverside Builders Franklin NY ICQ #47917652

3. 
   jimblodgett | Mar 26, 2002 06:31am | #26

   I agree that experience CAN make you better, Vince. But I don't think it necessarilly DOES make you better. I've worked with some really young carpenters who did the most beautiful work, in a timely manner. And I've worked with some old timers who just didn't give a rip, and their work showed it.

   But if you have the "want to" experience is indeed a great teacher.

   Last week I was talking with a guy who told me measuring with rulers became popular during the industrial revolution. He said before that, most trades people fitted one piece to another and used their eye a lot more than we tend to now. He said building was far more intuitive back then. I've thought a lot about that the past few days. Virtually everything was one of a kind, an expression of the person who created it. I think you'd almost HAVE to care about your craft to work that way. Maybe that's where we got off track, with the idea of "efficiency", or "Production".

5. 
   4Lorn1 | Mar 30, 2002 10:39am | #27

   It doesn't help that quite a few folks are building and buying houses as investments. A house is frequently lived in just long enough to flip it. House as investment commodity. All surface and no structure.

   Million dollar house with a roof that waves as you drive by.  The ridgline has ocean sized waves. A fault you can see from 100 yards at 60 mph doesn't bode well for the rest of the structure.

1. 
   jimblodgett | Mar 30, 2002 06:06pm | #28

   Yeah, you got that right, 4lorn1. The transient nature of our society has had a real dramatic effect on home building. Elliot Wiggington, who edited the Foxfire Books, said that was one of the main challenges facing public schools, too. Hard to argue with.

1. 
   bishopbldr | Mar 31, 2002 03:37am | #29

   In our area, one thing I've noticed is all to often many of the homebuilders are really more home marketers. They don't have much hands on experience or knowledge in the trades, but have a great sales pitch and a fully decorated model home. They usually subcontract every part of the construction, and are more concerned with bottom line and signing the next sales contract than attention to detail in their projects.

   In our buisness we do both rough and finish carpentry in house with our own carpenters, who get paid good wages and get benefits. Thats why most have been with me for many years. I provide good quality tools to work with, jobtrucks for moving the tools to jobsites, and expect quality work from the guys. They take pride in what they do. My overhead is higher than the guy who subs everything out to the lowest bidder, but you see the difference if you know what to look for. Unfortunatley most people don't. All to often I hear " but so and so said he will follow the same spec's". Then I try to explain that even if everyone uses the same material {Ha} it doesn't mean you still get the same finish product. Thats why the Rolls costs more than the Caddy costs more than the Chevy. Still, I've been at this about 27 years, and there still are some people that will pay for the higher quality.

1. 
   mercer88 | Mar 31, 2002 07:41am | #30

   I belive that good craftsmanship has to be taught in the field.  We as apprentices are pushed through school with only theory and very little hands on.  Craftsman that came from Europe go through with far more training that we do here.  House built in the 20's and 30's show intricate details that are hard to find today.  We live in a mass production society where quality doesn't matter very much.  How long does the average person stay in one area.  How many times have you moved.  People that aren't in the trade really do care for the most part. 

6. 
   marioahu | Mar 31, 2002 01:18pm | #31

   I am 38 years old and feel the same way. It blows my mind at some of the work I see. I could never make or build something unless I am going to do it right.