I love big complex roof structures, and frankly, those with straight lines bore me.
When I studied structural engineering in college, the prof I had, who headed up the civil engineering faculty, did a lot of consulting on the side for the big design firms that were doing stadiums. He brought back a lot of interesting things to tell us and show us from that work. I was fascinated. Curves, cantilevers, tension rings, all that stuff.
I know how a stickframed turret roof needs to get done. I haven’t done one myself, but have hung out and observed when they get put together.
But consider how much easier it gets when you just let the designers and engineers plan it for you and all you have to do is slap up the components.
If you frequent the JLC site, you probably saw this. But if not, here is one way the truss guys can do a cone top turret for you. Not an octagonal or hexagonal plan, but a round one.
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Gene, I'm usually the guy that says "truss it" but I'd much rather cut that roof by hand.
blue
Our Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
What makes you say that in this case?
I would imagine a truss system would be fairly straight forward for a round turret.
All the pieces are likely to be the same, so there will not much problem in assembly.
I would think putting the pieces together provided by a truss company would be easier, but then, I'm no framer
Kind of a trade off for me. With trusses you have lots of hangers to put in, measurements for the girders, setting the "hips". Alot of individual pieces to put together.
As for raftering it, that would be fairly straight forward. Determine the heel height and pitch, then cut a ton of rafters that all come to a point.
I have raftered one before, I haven't done one with trusses yet. My problem with the trusses in getting both sides to plane together. It's usually one or the other, roof or ceiling take your pick.
Look closely at the pic. Leave your saw in the toolbox. Calculator needs a new battery? No problem.
One header truss going across the diameter, two identical jacks hung to the centerpoint of the header, all three trusses oufitted on the ground before raising, with their 45-hangers, into which go the openwebbed sub-girders, all identical.
No more hangers now. Pop the remaining trusses on and nail them up. Have some coffee.
Aren't you glad you asked the engineers to do this for you?
Believe me I looked at the picture really good before I posted my reply.
I wouldn't be able to get away without hangers on all those mono trusses Gene. Even if the truss specs didn't call for them, the local inspector would make me put them on.
I have fought with him about this many a time, I just make sure the truss co. sends hangers for every mono now.
It looks like a really good setup, I like the looks of it alot. I would probably gang cut all the 2x rafters and save a large amount of money in an engineered system.
Am I telling someone to rafter something? Holy crap I am a truss guy. I'd like to give the truss system a shot. So I could compare the two.
I like engineers Gene, I have never bad mouthed them. I use trusses on all my houses I frame. A good truss system makes life easy, you can set trusses and sheet most of the roofs within a few days total.
"I wouldn't be able to get away without hangers on all those mono trusses"
The smaller trusses are mid chord bearing on the flat girders, so hangers are not needed. A conversation between the truss company and building inspector should clear that up.
People say crazy stuff during sex. One time I called this girl mom.
I have already tried that Boss, it's easier just to put them on than fight with him over it.
This is the same guy who told me engineered rim joist can't handle the weight of a two story house.
I try to get along with him, no matter how far off in left field he is. I don't like fighting with him, just easier to bite my tongue and do it.
OK, then. Take another good look. I'd say that's about an 18 foot diameter, wouldn't you?
And the rise at the center might make the pitch maybe a 2:12. Let's up it to 3.
Now, scratch out your rafter plan, include all your ties and ceiling framing, put it on some sheets of paper, photograph the sheets, and post them here. We all want to see how you'll stick it.
BTW, we'll need an engineer's seal on your prints. This is California, son.
>> Aren't you glad you asked the engineers to do this for you? <<Gene,Why would this be easier with a truss roof? What's so hard about stick framing and letting an Engineer figure it out? What's to figure out?You cut the birdsmouth and plumbcuts shortening each rafter and your done. I cut one four years a go with a 14' diameter and 32 rafters all joining at the top using my Bigfoot saw.Here are some horrible pictures I took using a disposable camera.Joe Carola
Joe, it isn't hard to stick frame. Most anything that can be trussed, not all but most, can be sticked.
But on this one, if my rented Lull can reach it, we'll be done with it an on to the next turret, before you have finished figuring and cutting. We only have to lay out for, then place and fasten, all the members. When we're done, our ceiling frame is, too.
For your sticked version, be sure in your time for figuring and cutting and erecting, you've included that necessary for the flat ceiling work, underneath.
Here is another guy's version of a plan we framed three jobs ago, all trussed except for some lay-ons and the little eyebrow lookout. My local source there told me that they sticked everything from the gable outboard, and that they agonized over it, the work taking four and a half days. We beat that by two and a half days, with our preengineered components.
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>> But on this one, if my rented Lull can reach it, we'll be done with it an on to the next turret, before you have finished figuring and cutting. <<Gene,How would you know that? Have you ever stick framed one personally?What's to figure?They're just common rafters with the plumbcuts getting shoreter and steeper bevel cuts. Cut with adjustments and nail them up.Joe Carola
No, Joe, I have not personally cut and erected a witch's hat roof on a round turret. But I am certain you have. And I'll bet I can, too. No biggie. Please don't turn this thread, which I called, "why I love trussed roofs," into "Gene the amateur can't stick frame like I can."
I am just a retired old hack doing a little light housebuilding for fun and profit. But the engineer in me tells me it is always quicker, in the field, to erect preengineered components than to figure and fab on site.
You happen to like the challenge of figuring and fabbing on site. I like to let computer systems aid in getting the components figured and made in a shop. It takes all kinds.
Believe me, the boys from Pulte, Lennar, Centex, and Toll Brothers would be having those roofs all stickframed, everywhere they could, if it were more cost-effective than using components. But it isn't.
"Aren't you glad you asked the engineers to do this for you?""Now, scratch out your rafter plan, include all your ties and ceiling framing, put it on some sheets of paper, photograph the sheets, and post them here. We all want to see how you'll stick it.""But on this one, if my rented Lull can reach it, we'll be done with it an on to the next turret, before you have finished figuring and cutting.">> No, Joe, I have not personally cut and erected a witch's hat roof on a round turret. But I am certain you have. And I'll bet I can, too. No biggie. Please don't turn this thread, which I called, "why I love trussed roofs," into "Gene the amateur can't stick frame like I can." <<"Gene the amateur can't stick frame like I can."
Gene,Where did that come from?I’m not changing this thread into anything, you are. Those are all quotes from you and your the one that always challenge stick framing. You’re the one that always talks about roof framing through your computer and figuring out rafters which is fine also.Now you want to sit there and say that a trussed roof for something like this is faster and you'll have it done before I can even figure the roof out. That makes no sense. You talk as if your the framer and framing these roofs when your not. Yes I have framed this roof like I just told you I did in my last post and then posted the pictures of it.So I do have experience framing one so I can comment back to you when you sit there and say stuff like you'll have it done before I can figure it out all because your computer program told you how to do it when I'm actually physically doing it.If you want to say that trussing this roof is faster then stick framing this roof, then you really can’t be sure of that now can you because you’ve never done either one.I can’t say which way is faster also even though I’ve stick framed one. I’ve never trussed one, so how can I compare the two and how can you compare the two and say which one is faster?Gene, if you don’t want to turn threads into challenges, then don’t challenge everyone else like you do sometimes. Like when you posted the thread about if a CM calculator can figure baluster spacing and I showed you an example of how you can do it and then you posted yours back and said that you did it in 15 seconds. Then you tell me to figure it all out and all the measurements and let you know how many seconds that took. I showed you and you had no response. No big deal.Even at JLC forum, me and the other guys are talking about formulas and figuring out roofs and then you make a post and said let your program figure it out. Then I posted to you about what good is your program and what would you do if you came into a situation with an existing roof that you were tying a new roof into and needed the answer on the spot? I asked you if you could figure it out right there or would you bring your program to the jobsite or waste time and go home and figure it out. We could just get it done whether we’re using a calculator, string lines or blocks or just cutting it in place and getting it done. You had no response. >> But the engineer in me tells me it is always quicker, in the field, to erect preengineered components than to figure and fab on site. <<Again, how will you know if you haven’t physically done it either way? Your just assuming it would be.Joe Carola
Edited 10/13/2006 6:39 am ET by Framer
First off I know nothing of framing towers in California Gene, in my area a 3-12 pitch is a bad idea.
I would make it at least a 4-12 or steeper. As for that I would start out with 14' 2x12's and gang cut all the seats first. Then figuring on an 8" heel height I would have 44" total rise with my rafters measuring 9' 8-5/8".
As framer said the bevels get steeper, and rafters get a little shorter.
Start off with 2 that length, the next two will get shorter half the thickness of your 2x. And so on.
Using 2x12's does away with ceiling framing, unless you just want it to look pretty from the outside. :)
I am sure that my measurements are not as accurate as the ones you will post later, my tape measure doesn't have decimals on it.
And please don't turn this into "I know more than you do" contest. I am trying to have a discussion about something and don't need to be told someone is smarter than me. I have nothing too prove to anyone.
I would like to try a trussed one, looks like fun. 10 minutes from here I wouldn't have that goofy inspector to deal with and it wouldn't be that bad.
Matt
I would probably gang cut all the 2x rafters and save a large amount of money in an engineered system.
I'm telling you, that gang cutting something like this is so simple it's not funny. On Wednesday, Kyle and I cut 52 rafters in less than an hour by gang cutting. It took less than 30 minutes to rack and cut the 20 rafters for the smaller span roof, so I think you could cut a cone roof pretty quickly.
The final picture was the end of an 8 hour roof framing day. All these pictures came from the same day, so we had 32 hours into framing the roof (including sheathing the back) with about 14 hours sheathing the front and framing the dormers. So for the crew, 1 1/2 days to frame and sheathe the upper roof (including ceiling joists).
So I highly recommend gang cutting.
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Once again great pictures Tim, great looking work. One hour to cut a roof is just fricken cool.
I wish I took pictures of a job I helped on last Saturday for a local Break Timer. Started setting trusses at 8 am, and by 4 pm 70% of the roof was sheeted and one valley framed. Pretty good day for 6 guys and no skytrak. For a small comparison between raters vs. trusses.
I am not a rafter guy by any means, but I agree cutting a cone is not that bad. I have done it, and I use trusses on all my frames.
I am slowly trying to switch to rafters, I like the extra nailing for subfacia as well as the extra heel height. Nailing facia into the end of a 2x4 on a 12-12 pitch isn't all that great.
Alright Tim, I need you to drive that lift down to Texas and bring your saws with you. I just got my next set of plans and its got close to 300 rafters, easy.It's gonna be a monster, 12/12 front to back and 16/12 side to side. The main ridge height is something like 19' above the second floor ceiling joists. It's 69'x112' at it's extremeties. Lots and lots of common rafters. The garage is a seperate wing and it's 26' wide by 40' long w a 16/12 gable spanning it. Truss guys, how would you do this ? John
John,
What size rafter stock? You really should get a chainsaw and table. You'll probably pay for it on the first job.
You really need to send me some pictures.
Gang cutting is so easy that Matt and Justin did it yesterday for the garage and they fit like a glove (just not OJ's glove). If you can layout a common rafter, you can gang cut it. I'm still figuring out all the hip jacks and valley jacks on the same pile, but that is doing pretty well too.
We recently did a truss job and hanging out there nailing fascia on 20" overhangs is not fun.
This roof in the pictures was a 7-12, 2x12 roof with 11" heelstand and 8" plumb cuts on the tails. We use kiln dried cedar 5/4 x 10 fascia and we use the cutoffs and scrap to build 2x12 birdblocks for a really nice beefly look.
Would you table frame it and have a rane lift it on?Or were you talking tongue in heek?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, if it was shipped as trusses, I'd certainly table frame it and send it up in one piece. It would be all wibbly/wobbly till we dropped it onto it's final resting place and adjusted it to the overhangs that would already be completed on the walls.
My objections would be two fold: hangers...which I hate and hangers, which I hate more than the first batch of hangers that I've mentioned.
Gene has already indicated that there arn't many hangers. He's claiming that there are only four 45degree hangers that can easily be put on down on the ground. He's obviously never acutually worked with those types of hangers. His statements lead me to believe that the "jacks" are top chord bearing, or as Boss had indicated mid span bearing which alleviates a great deal of angst with me. I was assuming that each of those trusses in the picture would need hangers on the bottom which would definitly swing the decision to cut the roof conventionally if all those hangers were needed.
Okay, so let's assume that there won't be anymore hangers. I'd like to see the connection on the midspan bearing point. Are those jacks toenailed or do they have a level seat? I don't see how the top of the jacks can be adequately fastened because you can't get your hammer and nails in near the top to properly nail anything.
So, structurally, I'm skeptical.
But...the engineers have stamped this with their seal. If we read the fine print on the specssheet, we'll find that the nailing and fastening schedule is most likely impossible to properly follow, so the framer is caught with his pants down once again.
Like I said, I'm normally a truss guy, but I'd rather stick frame this one.
Gene fails to discuss the field assembly facts. The facts are that the ceiling and roof planes will rarely go together flawlessly, as has been mentioned already by someone that has experienced this things in the field. I felt experience in his words but I don't feel that with Gene's exuberant claims. It's obvious Gene has never been hanging by his toenails while retrofitting a wayward set of trusses. And we really shouldn't forget that the flatter the roof, the more field adjustments will be necessary to get that jigsaw puzzle to work!
I wasn't kidding when I said I'd rather cut and frame it. I'd be okay if it was trusses too. After 30 years, I've learned to roll with the punches.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
Geez, Blue! You're making this old man feel like he needs to change his name back to "Ima Wannabe."
I did enough time on the doing side of engineering submittals, to realize those truss drawings need to be checked real well, and all the corrections gone over using phone calls, faxes, emails, or face to face meetings with the truss plant guy, in order to assure yourself of a smooth no-mistakes truss day.
Otherwise, it's hanging by your toenails while retrofitting, or throwing them on the burn pile. Neither of which I have had to do, yet. Knock on wood. I'm too old to be hanging by anything.
And my ceilings on those truss bottomsides? Never a complaint yet, through plainvaults, scissors, trays, and straight jackups. I love doing the upfront work with the truss guys so everything goes well on site. Knock on wood again.
I just walked out into my garage here, in the first house I built here in Lake Placid, and behold! Up above me! Some 45 truss hangers in play just like Rusty's got in that pizza pie roof arrangement. And I remember popping them on the girders before we raised them. BTW, I wuz wrong. Rusty's witch hat truss arrangement has ten hangers in it. Call the doctor!
Look, you know I'm a latecomer to this housebuilding show. Just a retired dilletante, I'm doing it for mind and body exercise, and to make a little pocket change. I enjoy the whole process, all parts of it, from sitework through finish. And I actually cut roof parts and set trusses once in a while.
I started this thread thinking it was to be in praise of the truss guys, those designers and builders who tackle the complex roofs and get them right with easy-to-use preengineered components. But it seems to have turned into the sh*tkicker's ball, with the stick smarties claiming the truss tuggers are neanderthals.
What's all this thing about roofs, in building, anyway? Is it a guy thing? Jeez, you'd think it's the only thing to a house. Just because you can frame the Eiffel Tower from a pile of planks, using your square and a saw, doesn't mean you should. Did you go over to the JLC site and see the other funky roof being trussed on that whopper Rusty's framing? I'd like to see those kings of kutting stick-cut that one!
>> What's all this thing about roofs, in building, anyway? Is it a guy thing? Jeez, you'd think it's the only thing to a house. Just because you can frame the Eiffel Tower from a pile of planks, using your square and a saw, doesn't mean you should. <<But it does mean that you'll know how when you have to frame a roof that CAN'T be trussed!I could same say this to you,†Just because you can Truss the Eiffel Tower from a pile of planks, doesn't mean you should.â€I have nothing against trusses. I just don't use them. A lot of work I do on existing houses can't be trussed. The way you talk, everything can be trussed and every time there's a conversation about stick framing, you jump in with your computer programming and tell everyone to use trusses because it's faster.So why is it that you start the challenges all the time, and then when you’re challenged back you don't like it?I just framed a dormer when viewed from the outside connected the left side existing shed roof Dormer that had a 3.5/12 pitch that had to tie into the new dormer gable roof where the gable roof ridge had to match the same height ridge on the existing house.The top of the existing 3.5/12 dormer rafters where nailed flush to the top of the existing ridge. The existing ridge I had to jack up and string straight and add a microlam under it. The left side of the new gable dormer which worked out to be a 7.5/12 pitch had to tie into the 3.5/12 existing dormer roof with a true valley for a cathedral ceiling with double microlams.The right side of the new 7.5/12 pitch gable dormer had to tie into the existing 11/12 pitch roof because this was a Cape Cod style home. The dormer was stepped in 1’ on the right side. The 7.5/12 new gable had to tie into the 11/12 pitch existing roof with a true valley that was for a cathedral ceiling also.So now I have an existing dormer side with a 3.5/12 and 7.5/12 new gable dormer pitched combination with a cathedral true valley on the left side and a 7.5/12 and 11/12 pitched combinations with a cathedral true valley on the right side. I set the valleys up even at the bottom where the two different pitches intersect each other at the bottom.Both valleys are double microlams and I beveled both the bottoms of each microlam with two different bevels to match each pitch of the roof. so that the sheetrock fits perfect.What I’m getting at with this long post is that it’s not a “Guy†thing as you say; it’s just that there are situations where you can’t truss something especially like what I’ve described above. So knowing how to figure out these rafters “On Site†and dealing with existing poor conditions, you have to have knowledge of roof framing and use whatever technique that you have to put these pile of sticks together because a computer program or prefabbed trusses won’t work in all situations.I’m sure on new work a lot of roofs can be trussed but I work on a lot of existing homes tying in roofs with new rafters that are bigger than the existing rafters and making new work and old work cathedral ceilings and they have to be built on site.Here’s a couple pictures of this roof.Joe Carola
Edited 10/17/2006 7:33 am ET by Framer
Good pictures Joe, good lookin frame work.
Thanks, Stilleto.Joe Carola
Joe
I have done some of these, and there is no better feeling when your done and they look that good.I stick frame and truss roofs, whatever the builder wants, I don't have a choice in the matter.
I can appreciate a complex truss job done well as well as complex stick job done well. They both take a lot of skill, but not the same skills.
Keep up the ictures
Greg in Connecticut
Edited 10/18/2006 9:13 pm ET by gzajac
Sorry Gene I missed the point of your thread. I didn't catch that in your original post. I love truss roofs as much as you and Blue do.
I have just been burnt a few times on the cutup complex ones. I posted a few things that have happened in my past experiences, hangers and ceiling, roof planes.
I would like to try one with trusses though, maybe in a different area than I live in now, my inspector would make that roof really hard for me.
Geez, Blue! You're making this old man feel like he needs to change his name back to "Ima Wannabe."
You are a wannabe, just like I'm a wannabe engineer.
And my ceilings on those truss bottomsides? Never a complaint yet, through plainvaults, scissors, trays, and straight jackups. I love doing the upfront work with the truss guys so everything goes well on site. Knock on wood again.
You are still misunderstanding the role of the carpenter in the truss installation process. I'm not finding fault with your incessant upfront investigation of the engineering process, but you have to understand that it's still all desk work. The real work starts when the inperfect trusses and installed on imperfect walls and the sidewalk supervisors want perfect roofs!
Yes, we can work magic.
just walked out into my garage here, in the first house I built here in Lake Placid, and behold! Up above me! Some 45 truss hangers in play just like Rusty's got in that pizza pie roof arrangement. And I remember popping them on the girders before we raised them. BTW, I wuz wrong. Rusty's witch hat truss arrangement has ten hangers in it. Call the doctor!
Your picture showed more than ten trusses. I think there were twice that. That means I'd have to put on those dreaded 45 degree hangers, then I'd have to put hurricane ties on each truss at the plate. The last cone roof I did conventionally, I had zero hangers and far fewer trusses! It's still standing...
I rest my case, LOL!
started this thread thinking it was to be in praise of the truss guys, those designers and builders who tackle the complex roofs and get them right with easy-to-use preengineered components. But it seems to have turned into the sh*tkicker's ball, with the stick smarties claiming the truss tuggers are neanderthals.
What's all this thing about roofs, in building, anyway? Is it a guy thing? Jeez, you'd think it's the only thing to a house. Just because you can frame the Eiffel Tower from a pile of planks, using your square and a saw, doesn't mean you should. Did you go over to the JLC site and see the other funky roof being trussed on that whopper Rusty's framing? I'd like to see those kings of kutting stick-cut that one!
Well, I hope you aren't blaming me for the direction of this thread. I'm a truss guy first but there are some times I just don't want to deal with them. One of those issues is those danged 45 degree hangers, of which I have no use for.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
Any schmuck can assemble trusses, takes a craftsman to cut a roof.
Only a low life would insult someone that works for a living.
Setting trusses is hard and dangerous work. I wouldn't call them schmucks, unless I was one.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
Setting trusses is hard and dangerous work.Never said it wasn't. First of all I never said if you used trusses you were a schmuck just that any schmuck could set trusses, big difference. Second my comment refered to skill level, in truss work all the brain work has done by others.
Edited 10/16/2006 6:14 pm ET by riverman
Second my comment refered to skill level, in truss work all the brain work has done by others.
I don't agree with that statement either Riverman. Truss work might require a different talent, but I can assure you that Ive seen people that lacked talent work the load of trusses and I've seen talented people work em too.
Yes it takes some math skills to figure a roof but it usually isn't all that much nor that impressive.
I have spent 12 hours studying a set of truss drawings to figure out how to build the house though. I guess that "brain work" doesn't count because the roof was "figured out for me".
Comments such as yours indicates that you've never really worked that much with trusses and your viewpoint is ignorantly skewed.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
I have spent 12 hours studying a set of truss drawings to figure out how to build the house though. I guess that "brain work" doesn't count because the roof was "figured out for me".
And how long would it take you to figure the same house in conventional rafters? Your missing my point totally.
Take a guy with basic skills building a simple garage.
Common rafters: Measure span, calculate rise and run, transfer to framing square, step off rafter length. mark birdsmouth, deduct for 1/2 ridge thickness, calculate overhang, mark plumb cut, allow for soffit. Then you still need the skill to cut the line you just drew.
Truss,
Layout 24 inch centers, nail on X
End of story.
Comments such as yours indicates that you've never really worked that much with trusses and your viewpoint is ignorantly skewed.
<!----><!---->What's a matter the first snow put you in a sour mood, I never figured you for being the easy offended type.<!---->
<!---->For your info, in two months I will have been in the trades 40 years full time, I didn't miss much.<!---->
I have spent 12 hours studying a set of truss drawings to figure out how to build the house though. I guess that "brain work" doesn't count because the roof was "figured out for me".
And how long would it take you to figure the same house in conventional rafters? Your missing my point totally
Actually, you are missing the point.
The house that I spent 12 hours studying the plans was extremely complicated for such a small house (under 3000 ft). I normally can leaf through a truss package in ten minutes, sometimes take as much as an hour, and figure out all the things I need to know: the bearing points, the point loads, the wall heights, the heel heights and from those facts, I derive my fascia heights, soffit heights, frieze heights and from those facts I derive my header heights and I also determine if everything on the plans and everything on the truss plans and everything that the field superintendent has told me will work. Often times it does not and there is some sort of field decision to be made.
After making those field decisions, sometimes alone and sometimes in conjunction with the other parties to this game, I start building the deck.
To claim that neaderthals (Gene's words) are working the trusses and the thing has been figured out for them is rather insulting. The house that required me to study the plans for a day and a half was complicated because it had bizarre multiple wall heights, heels and the upper roof connected to the lower roofs. I've lived long enough to know that I can't trust the given facts (spans, heel heights, pitch, wall heights, etc) because we install all sidings and overhangs on the wall before we raise them...therefore, all my heights have to be perfect, plus or minus perhaps a quarter of an inch.
My point is, and remains to be, that cutting roofs isn't that great of an accomplishment. I did my first one thirty years ago and it worked fine. The process is the same a thousand sets later. It's basic math (and geometry). I can cut rafters but I can't put man on the moon.
blue
Our Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
Take a guy with basic skills building a simple garage.
Common rafters: Measure span, calculate rise and run, transfer to framing square, step off rafter length. mark birdsmouth, deduct for 1/2 ridge thickness, calculate overhang, mark plumb cut, allow for soffit. Then you still need the skill to cut the line you just drew.
Truss,
Layout 24 inch centers, nail on X
End of story
Maybe you just layout the 24" centers and nail it on the x, but I can assure you that it doesn't happen like that in our neck of the woods. A guy that only knew how to layout the trusses and nail it on the x would never survive in our market.
Count your blessings.
blue
Our Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
A guy that only knew how to layout the trusses and nail it on the x would never survive in our market.Wouldn't survive here either, it was a simple comparison. And yes the math is no big deal I can do it in my sleep just like I can layout complex stairs with basic math. I still don't understand why you were bent out of shape, I seen your photos it's plain as day you know what your doing. My original comment was not directed at the pro. More or less peeled the concept of truss / conventional roof down to the bare bones basic skills required.keep dry, be well, nasty wet cold day here today.
I still don't understand why you were bent out of shape, I seen your photos it's plain as day you know what your doing. My original comment was not directed at the pro. More or less peeled the concept of truss / conventional roof down to the bare bones basic skills required.
First, I'm not bent out of shape, I'm just telling you that your attitude towards the men setting trusses is somewhat condescending.
Personally, I have the utmost respect for those neaderthals that are wrestling those 400 pound monsters while hanging by their toenails in all kinds of conditions. I don't call them "my monkees" for nothing.
Like I said, it takes a different talent.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
First, I'm not bent out of shape; I'm just telling you that your attitude towards the men setting trusses is somewhat condescending.
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You’re getting the wrong impression. I for one have the utmost respect for any tradesman who does his or her job well and have never degraded anyone, professional or DIY for lack of knowledge or skill. I go out of my way to share aspects of the trade I have learned with all who ask. My website generates lots of business however it also attracts those who have questions and look for help. My time is pretty much equally split between sales and just plain out walking guys through the stair building process. Not to mention my trade related "how to posts" on Breaktime which eat up a fair amount of effort. How many others would take the time to do so. A condescending person wouldn’t bother. Personally I feel “skill†is not a one size fits all word, I’m sure you heard the term “taking you skill to the next levelâ€. I really don’t see where setting trusses is on par with the knowledge required in conventional roof framing, if you disagree that’s great but don’t accuse me of belittling anyone. Do you think its ok to lump the roof sawyer who has spent 20 years perfecting his skill in with the guy who has a year or two hanging by his toenails setting trusses? Lots of jobs are hard and dangerous, skill aside. My weak link is tangent hand railing, tried it several times couldn’t quite get it. Finally found a retired stair builder who still did a few railings a year. He was kind enough to share what he learned. I walked away realizing I was another half a lifetime away from reaching his ability to fabricate complex railings with his ease and grace. I wouldn’t think of lumping myself in with his skill level, rather something to strive for..
Do you think its ok to lump the roof sawyer who has spent 20 years perfecting his skill in with the guy who has a year or two hanging by his toenails setting trusses?
No I don't think it's okay to lump a truss setter who has spent 20 years hanging by his toenails, perfecting his skill in with the guy who has a year or two sawing roofs. Thats not a fair comparison though because the truss setter will certainly be the more knowledgable and skilled of those subsets in the industry!
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting sick and tired of all the debates about trusses and stick framing, and I've done my fair share of that.
It is making this forum less attractive. What I would like is that the negative comments about stickframing stay out of the stickframing threads, and the negative truss comments stay out of the truss threads.
Unless everyone is mature enough to actually discuss things reasonably. In this thread, I was finding it interesting that some truss guys wouldn't want to truss this cone roof. I was interested in why.
Bottom line is that many framers look up to stickframing because it is complex. It doesn't have to be and with the internet and calculators and books, much of the mystery has been been taken away, this is a good thing. In the older days 10+ years ago, it was beyond many guys ability to precut complex roofs because there wasn't that much info to be had or easy to find and a lot of guys, my mentor included, trial and errored everything. The "roofcutter's" bag of tools included a bevel guage and stringline.
A lot of framers make negative comments about trusses because in times past they've had bad experiences with truss companies. The software and education has gotten to the point where that probably isn't as likely as it used to be. At least not everywhere.
Both approaches have come a long way in the last 10 years. It's just a shame that in this forum most discussions about roof building become a waste of time to read. If it wasn't for this forum and especially JLC, there is no way that cutting roofs would be as fun as it is for my crew and me. I owe a lot of people here and at JLC for sharing their knowledge and when I did my first hip truss set a couple of months ago, it was those guys and others here and at JLC that made that go smoothly.
After reading through this thread I feel the same as when I must intervene with my 10 year old twin girls arguing.
Have a good day
CLiffy
I don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting sick and tired
Calm down Tim. It aint that bad. This is what carpenters do....we hang around and bellyache at each other...
Perhaps you need a hug?
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
This is what carpenters do....we hang around and bellyache at each other
Yeah and it's a lot safer than bellyaching at the lawyers in the political threads. Not to mention with carps someone usually ends up with a free beer.
Edited 10/18/2006 6:27 pm ET by riverman
I don't think anything in my message gave the impression that I wasn't calm!! I'M PERFECTLY CALM. Yeah, maybe I need a hug. :-)
Actually I'm in a good mood, I just wanted to be the first person to say to say it's time to be more mature :-)
I noticed that your machine only has 500 hours? You guys don't put many hours on it. I think in the year and a half we've had the VR1056, we've put 500 hours on it. I hope someone takes you up on your offer.
My dad just got back from visiting family in North & South Dakota and Wyoming and he said that since the last time he was there, a lot of framers have forklifts. When we were in Bend, OR this last August, there were forklifts everywhere.
We don't put many hours on it Tim. We fire it up, move the stuff, then shut it off. I think the machine is almost gone anyways-we haven't been using it enough to keep it. If we need one, we'll rent.
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
LOL good comeback. Glad to see you still retained your sense of humor. However I suspect that anyone who has been hanging by by their toenails for 20 years would have had their skill level stretched to the max.
However I suspect that anyone who has been hanging by by their toenails for 20 years would have had their skill level stretched to the max.
I don't see it that way. Most of the guys that are interested enough to be good at what they do, whether it be setting trusses or cutting roofs, apply themselves to the task at hand just like any skilled tradesman in and industry would. Around here, the mechanics are educated enough to do both, or they won't survive. The most competitive area in the Metro Detroit are uses more conventional roof systems than trusses and the guys freely flow from one style of framing into the other.
I've been guilty myself of not recognizing the different talents necessary to excell at each method, that's why it was easy for me to spot my own past attitudes in your posts LOL!
blueOur Skytrak is for sale. It has 500 hrs on it. We want 50k (you pay the freight) and we'll finance it. Drop me an email; it's a good buy.
Blue is right. Guys who set trusses aren't less skilled - They just have different skills. You don't have to be skilled to do either. You just have to be skilled to do it well.
Psychiatrists say that mental illness affects one out of four people. Check three friends. If they're OK, you're it.
Nobody unskilled should be allowed anywhere near a roof like that!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
. Guys who set trusses aren't less skilled - They just have different skills
Depends on which angle you look at it from. Very true a complex truss roof takes a lot of skill to assemble right. Start in the wrong sequence or slightly off line and before you know it you have flashed beyond the point of no return with a total mess in tow. I have great respect for anyone who can do a job and do it well however the skill level of assembling trusses is not even close to the knowledge required to start with a pile of I- joist and LVL's and build a complex roof. If what you say is true then guy that assembles one of my prefitted and numbered stair kits has the same skill level I do. The guy that paints a paint by number picture is just as skilled as the artist that starts with a clean canvas. It's not a matter of belittling anyone just giving credit where it's due.
Like I said - One is not necessarilly less skilled than another - They're just different skills.You dno't have to be skilled to stick frame - You just ahve to be skilled to do it WELL. Same with trusses.
Capitalism is the exploitation of man by man. Socialism is exactly the reverse
You dno't have to be skilled to stick frame - You just ahve to be skilled to do it WELL.
Boy that's the truth. That's why when I take pictures I do it from far enough back . . . . . :-)
Interesting roof. I've never done one quite like that one before.
It is one little tiny piece of a very large roof puzzle, on a very large complex house, being built out somewhere near Palm Springs, and the whole thing, I believe, is trussed.
Probably zero snow loading, unless it is up on top of the ski hill nearby.
Some framer guy over at JLC is working on it, and earlier, posted views of the roof plans. Quite wild.
Edited 10/12/2006 9:11 pm ET by Gene_Davis
I think kirkpatrickframer (somethig like that) has some pics in one thread of a stcik framed dome he built. the stick frame looks more crafty, but I reckon the trusses are functional and serve the purpose.
Trusses have their place. But here's another cool roof that I saw a day or two ago while browsing the japanese timber framing forums.
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From japanesewoodworkingforum.
zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
I think that roof might have a little problem with water penetration ;)Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
It doesn't rain in japan. another miracle of technology.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"