It seems like every contractor I encounter these days is lamenting the fact that they just can’t seem to find good help anymore.
Why?
New knowledge is priceless.
Used knowledge is even more valuable.
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Join some of the most experienced and recognized building professionals for two days of presentations, panel discussions, networking, and more.
Featured Video
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Fine Homebuilding Magazine
Fine Home Building
Follow
-
Fine Homebuilding
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial Now -
GBA Prime
Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
- Home Group
- Antique Trader
- Arts & Crafts Homes
- Bank Note Reporter
- Cabin Life
- Cuisine at Home
- Fine Gardening
- Fine Woodworking
- Green Building Advisor
- Garden Gate
- Horticulture
- Keep Craft Alive
- Log Home Living
- Military Trader/Vehicles
- Numismatic News
- Numismaster
- Old Cars Weekly
- Old House Journal
- Period Homes
- Popular Woodworking
- Script
- ShopNotes
- Sports Collectors Digest
- Threads
- Timber Home Living
- Traditional Building
- Woodsmith
- World Coin News
- Writer's Digest
Replies
People have been saying that all my life.
I dno't think anything has changed - Just the perspective of the people who are saying it.
A: Because it's worth it.
Because the only good help left out there is the older generation. I think too many parents have been lax in the raising of their children, therefore, they don't know the meaning of pride, discipline, work ethic, or honor. Most are just there for the paycheck. I hate to be negative, but that's all we see around here.
My brain + his brawn = a perfect team
children aren't allowed to work anymore, by law.least it's that way in Ma.can't operate machinery of any kind till you're 18 as part of a job.child labor laws bah!
bobl Volo, non valeo
Baloney detecter WFR
"But when you're a kibbutzer and have no responsibility to decide the facts and apply the law, you can reach any conclusion you want because it doesn't matter." SHG
<Because the only good help left out there is the older generation. I think too many parents have been lax in the raising of their children, therefore, they don't know the meaning of pride, discipline, work ethic, or honor. Most are just there for the paycheck. I hate to be negative, but that's all we see around here>
that is bullwash and poppy kaw, and something that's been said for thousands of years. yet the buildings go up year after year.
i personally know some working sob's that are animals. probably ten off the top of my head, all under thirty.
you sound like a dinosaur.
Okay. Maybe that was a little harsh. By older generation, I mean those of age 30 and older. I too have a young man who has been with us for 6 years now. He seems to be the exception to the rule.
We have hired younger (18-28 or so) pay them well, give them a company truck, we supply the tools, yet they do half azz work, or call in sick at least once a week, curse in front of the clients, cheat on their time, etc.
Maybe it's different where you are. I am interested in any info you can input to improve our company and get the best help.
Yes the buildings do go up year after year, and we get calls all the time to fix someone elses mess.My brain + his brawn = a perfect team
It's supply and demand again, isn't it? When there's enough work around, the better qualified tradespeople are the first in line. After that, it's pot luck.
I don't know what kind of help you're looking for but if you're a skilled person yourself, there's no reason why you can't find and train some good kids to do it your way.
I've almost always worked that way, partly because I enjoy leading more than following, and partly because I feel better when I'm teaching someone some life skills...and paying them enough to feel good about learning them.
Amen, Brother!!!
I think its our duty to try to impart some of our knowledge on the next generation. No matter how frustrating that can be! Stay focoused, stay calm, keep trying, day in, day out. I like to think about the "crusty bastards" that put up with me, all those years ago. They gave me a skill set that has lasted a lifetime and only asked for an honest days work in return. May they rest in peace.
Still teaching, still learningIf you didn't have time to do it right the first time, how come you've got time to do it over again?
A friend of mine works for a shop that only hires older folks.... probably because they are capable, consistent, dependable and show up every day and always have the tools they need
but some places want you to run your azz off...
personally, I'm built for comfort....not speed
.
.
.
, wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?
Mw,
There seems to always be problems finding help that will "buy-in" to the work they are hired to do. No ownership has always lowered job quality.
I can tell you what I did to help make the best of what workers come to the job. When the difference in cost of an insulated steel building and a concrete tilt-wall was only $1.11, I went with the tilt-wall. When the forms were being set, and the slab and tilt walls of my workshop were poured back in the summer of 1993, kinds words and pats on the back only went so far in motivation. After the concrete was poured and screeded, the crew was basically standing around waiting for the water to come to the top, I brought out two large cold watermelons. Passing out large slices with salt shakers and paper towels sure made a lot of smiling faces and the quality of the finished floor was great. I did the same thing when the walls were poured and washed to expose the stone aggregate.
It's twelve years later and that act of kindness is still paying dividens. The floor is still smooth, and only one hairline crack in the whole 30'X40' slab....
Something kind can bring out the good in most anyone,
Bill
Edited 7/10/2007 5:44 pm ET by BilljustBill
Edited 7/10/2007 5:47 pm ET by BilljustBill
Maybe another reason is pay. When I look through the classifieds every so often, it seems that contractors wish to hire highly skilled, competent people at pay rates from 8 to 15 dollars an hour. In my opinion, no one worth their salt is going to work for that.
My thoughts are that our society long ago quit showing respect to the building trades as highly skilled professions many years ago. Schools quit teaching the trades, teachers and administrators denigrated manual labor as demeaning and unskilled. (Right up until the time they needed their roof or toilet repaired). We all were supposed to raise our children to be computer savvy MBAs who understood how to make a buck make a buck without getting dirty. Sports took over the shop classrooms for weight classes and fitness training. There are still a number of young people who love this work and do get into it. I am with the others who said they look for those who show an interest and try to teach them."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
I was going to say the same thing about pay. Especially in my area where the cost of living has jumped, but wages have not kept up. Also, in my experience I have found that aswering ads in the classifieds has not worked for me. Most companies that have a reputation for quality work, good pay, health insurance/benefits and safe working conditions will have quality help beating down their door. JMHO..........
they just can't seem to find good help anymore.
What they are lamenting is they can't find good help anymore for what they want to pay for it.
http://grantlogan.net/
Sometimes, when I lie in bed at night and look up at the stars, I think to myself, "Man! I really need to fix that roof."
What they are lamenting is they can't find good help anymore for what they want to pay for it.
Well said!
When I lived down in TX the ads in the paper would read, "need experienced carpenter, need own tools, truck and cell phone, pay $12 hr"
WTF are they thinking, dumb bastards!
There's a lot of good people out there but you cant have em for $12 an hour. I'd go to work at Lowes and stand around in the plumbing department and give out bad advice before I'd hire on at a place that wanted everything in that ad for $12.
Doug
I'd go to work at Lowes and stand around in the plumbing department and give out bad advice before I'd hire on at a place that wanted everything in that ad for $12.
Plus benefits.
View Imagehttp://grantlogan.net/
Sometimes, when I lie in bed at night and look up at the stars, I think to myself, "Man! I really need to fix that roof."
I agree wholeheartedly with both you and Doug with something to add.............there is a shortage of good guys. They have found their spot and stay there. There are only so many to go arounf.
Case in point, I have two guys on one of my crews. I have 18 years (+-) in age on both of them and at least 10-15 years more experience.
Oh, dats not da way "we" do it! Or, I've never done it dat way.
Shut the flick up and listen. I'm here to learn you something!
Too many stoopid ego driven jerks. Hey, I'm not bangin nails for 15 per. You must be smarter than I am; my mistake.
It's the de-evolution of the trades. It's almost done. Idiots teaching morons the wrong way to do things.[email protected]
Too many stoopid ego driven jerks.
Just a shot in the dark: Maybe you're one of them. I get a lot of great (and bad) ideas from my younger guys. Gotta think those idears thru. Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it has to always be done that way.
View Imagehttp://grantlogan.net/
I'm wearing Mr. T's pants.
seeyou, I like it."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
You're knockin' on the wrong door G.
I know what I see. I know what's wrong and right. I'm not ignorant.
Ignorant means not wanting to learn. I'm here ain't I?
Carp puts up two sets of rafters. Where's the pattern? Ooops, we just nailed it off. That's AFTER he insisted on posting up the ridge to some height he pulled out of his arse intead of pushing the ridge up through the two sets of rafters.
Then when we finally did it that way (my) he wouldn't let go of the connection, He insisted it would'nt stay up with out putting a post under it!
"I've been doing this 16 years argh argh."
yeah right, you've never raised a ridge in your life, at least not with anyone who knew what they were doing.
BTW, he then went down and cut a new "pattern" and cut all the rafters wrong from it because he didn't test fit the "new" pattern like I told him to.
Duh. 16 years my azz!
Still wanna knock on door to my ego?
[email protected]
edits in blue added after Grant read post
Edited 7/10/2007 9:02 pm ET by EricPaulson
Edited 7/10/2007 9:03 pm ET by EricPaulson
I feel your pain. As an employee I have worked with many of the "been doin' this 20 years....... just give me the prints and let me roll....that's not the way I do it" guys. They never last long. I have never played myself up to any employer, in fact, I would rather be underestimated and have my employer say, "wow, this guy knows his ####!" rather than have him wondering "why did I hire this Mr. know-it-all fool?".
One of my first boss' response to the "I got 20 years experience....." was "Nah. You just got one years experience 20 times"
Still wanna knock on door to my ego?
I wasn't judging you, just making a suggestion. You got your back up. I think maybe I can judge you and say yeah, your ego is in your way.
View Imagehttp://grantlogan.net/
I'm wearing Mr. T's pants.
<Why is good help so hard to find?>Poor teaching skillsSome are afraid to hand down their skillsthe initiation practices for new comers
edit: should be to all
Edited 7/10/2007 9:48 pm by BarryE
Poor teaching skills
Some are afraid to hand down their skills
the initiation practices for new comers
ayuh.
View Imagehttp://grantlogan.net/
I'm wearing Mr. T's pants.
You're right Grant, I do have my back up.
I'm in charge of getting these monkeys to produce something similiar to what the company has promised our client we would deliver and on time too.
I need a vacation.
Hey, wait a minute. I'm off next week!
Yeah![email protected]
I'm thinking of Tom Petty right now...............
..............good love is hard to find...................[email protected]
I think it has to do with computer, everybody wanted computer repair and then the market fell,
Hey, wait a minute. I'm off next week!
Enjoy yourself.
View Image
http://grantlogan.net/
I'm wearing Mr. T's pants.
One of the things I have learned over the years has been to not try to micro manage........
I find if I explain and show my people what needs to be done and help them form their own plan on how to do it, it happens alot easier.
I also tell them it is all my fault anyway if it goes south. So it seems to help them make better decisions and it encourages them use their brains.
On a hill by the harbour
Exactly.
View Imagehttp://grantlogan.net/
I'm wearing Mr. T's pants.
maybe the reason it's hard to find good help because contractors are so f-ing cheap:) i come from a family of them.
you want good employees? stop trying to pay them what you can get away with and pay them closer to what you would expect to get paid. profit sharing etc. keep them motivated. screw the hourly wage mentallity.
how would you handle profit sharing? View Image View Image
We don't have profit sharing per se but we know damn well when our boss makes money on a job - we see new tools in the shop, checks handed out to us employees, stuff like that.
I work for a company that doesn't have turnover, were paid well, treated well, and trusted to do a good job. Sure the boss is an azzhole every now and then, never met one that wasn't but sometimes you gotta be for the betterment of yourself and the company.
I worked for this company before moving to TX for 3 1/2 years, came back when my wife got relocated again and I was lucky enough to get back on - they were in the middle of a big job and I was in the right place at the right time! I was able to stay on because the guy that replaced me 3 1/2 years ago thought his side jobs were more important than his full time job, cant log hours at both places!
We do custom millwork on some pretty nice places, I see young carpenters that went to the local community college for construction tech out at some of these houses, good workers, typical young guys but willing to learn and work as long as theres someone that gives a shyt enough to train them, take an interest in them.
I don't buy this crap about "where do you find good workers" - I think boss Hogg said it in the second post, this is a saying that's been going on since the beginning of time. Its pretty worn out, theres plenty of good guys out there, just gotta be willing to do what it takes to get them. When I hear someone say that they cant find good help first thing that comes to my mind is, What are you doing to attract the good workers, maybe look in the mirror, that might be the problem!
There are so many people out there that are looking for the bottom line, how cheap can they get the worker - how the hell would you(don't mean you alrightythen) expect to get good help when that's your criteria for an employee?
The youth of America isn't the problem, we cant keep using that as an excuse.
Doug
Edited 7/11/2007 7:15 am ET by DougU
Thanks for your answer to my question. wasnt' sure how profit sharing worked. I've been a boss for only a couple years. to me if a guy can earn his wage I will glady pay it. I've got a young guy that is on medical leave right now, and I know that every time I wrote him a cheque I was happy to do it. other guys where I'm not so happy to do so. I like to take the time to teach a guy who is willing to learn. and when he does a good job I like to tell him. If he makes a mistake I tell/show him what he needed to do. there is no point kicking someone when they are already down. I know I feel like crap when I screw up.
My young guy that I mentioned busted his butt on one paticular job. The owner was so happy with the work that he paid me more than what I'd asked for. I gave the extra to my guy and told him how happy the owner was, and that he was the one who earned that. you have any idea how he felt when I told him that and handed him the little bonus?
I'm just small potatoes, just starting out on my own, but I do the best I can with my guys. I do know that when my guy got a call from his old boss who's been doing this a lot longer than I have, wondering when he was coming back, Jame's told him he was busy with me. View Image View Image
A business man told me years ago, "If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys"After 40 years in the game, I still try to help any body that works for me that wants to learn. I can't stand the guy that can't be taught. (That goes both ways :)
I've been a boss for only a couple years. ..........
I remember reading a post of your a while back regarding your company. Sounds like your on the right track!
I gave the extra to my guy and told him how happy the owner was, and that he was the one who earned that. you have any idea how he felt when I told him that and handed him the little bonus?
Yea I do know how he feels, although I don't ever expect a bonus its nice to get one - I refer to it as free money or play money, not intended for bills!
I received a gift certificate to Cabelas from a HO last Christmas - I never shop there because I think its pricey but WTH, free money!
Take care of those employees and you'll be fine.
Doug
Thanks for the nod..this being in business for myself is a lot tougher than clocking out at the end of the day, especially all the paperwork. But I'm trying my best to build up the guys around me so that we all win in the end. I enjoy teaching a guy who likes to learn and am fortunate to have some guys like that. They are worth rewarding. View Image View Image
true story today:generator would not start. they tore the carb apart, then the spark plug, then rip the pull cord off of it. It would run two second then die.I told super, put some oil in it.
they had like seven people working on it at once.
super, put some oil in itafter about twenty minute, super tell them to add oil. it crank half of a pullthe generator had a low oil cutoff sensorThe look the super had, I left the jobsite, I would be surprise if he didnt fire everybody.They been working on this generator three hours and one guy was alway, no that not it do this.
I showed up to check out the holes that have been dug for some form work I'm starting tomorrow. Hows it going I say. "you see those new gas lines over there - they weren't planned new gas lines."
GC and I were talking after the boys took off for the day.....there goes their bonus he says View Image View Image
by giving a bonus at the end of the job equal to a small percentage of profit. let them know they are apprecited when they are productive and produce a quality product. create an enviornment that they will want to work in.
at one point in time my father had three or four employees that had been with him for more than ten years one of them over twenty. this is a small residential company, maybe seven employees at it's largest and less now.
it is possible to retain good workers, the proof is in the pudding. whether or not it's worth it to the contractor is up to him. i'm not going to feel sorry for a whinning contractor complaining about the lack of skilled workers. train someone.
it's been my experience that a good boss has good help, end of story.
same here in NW FL.
I've heard that before. A short discussion invariably reveals that they are only letting you hear half the question. What they are really asking is:
"When I plan to pay only a fourth of that outrageous Union scale, and have no intention of providing benefits, or a truck, or major tools ... and am not about to invest in training someone ... how come the only help I seem to find are losers who've run out of options?"
hire a mexician
hire a mexician
Isn't the term being used now, "American"?
I truly thought the main reason now for not finding good help is that there are soooo many good, high paying jobs in this country now that the folks can loaf, knowing good and well that they can easily get hired somewhere's else???-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
"If you come to a fork in the road, take it"
"Why is good help so hard to find"
I guess the same reason good employers are hard to find.
roger
mwgaines,
Somebody wants something for nothing.. Every single person who's helped me on my house has had virtually no construction experiance.. Stock room manager, Theatre lighting director, preacher, math teacher, janitor, handiman. etc..
I teach them what they need to know, show them how to work safe and smart, help when I can, and get out of the way once they master something..
They've bragged about being timber monkeys and swung from the beams they helped erect..
They've offered suggestions on how to do things better and sometimes we do it just that way.. I make a point of never asking them to do anything I won't do myself.
I pay them well, better than most contractors. treat them with respect. Laugh and joke with them. I feed them well and they've been worth every dime.
There's a quote (that I currently can't find) that goes something like:It's easier to teach job skills to someone with only good work ethic than to teach good work ethic to someone with only job skills.
you cant teach an old dog new tricks
Byhammerandhand
I've found that I set the work ethic. Ahen the sweat is pouring off my brow and I'm achieveing things it seems a simple glance is often enough to motivate those around me. I'm 59 years old, fat, and worked mainly sedentary jobs all of my life.. These young guys watch me do serious work and demonstrate how to do things and I guess it's an ego thing,, they'll be damned if they let an fat old guy like me out work them..
Pretty soon they're shouldering me aside and taking over determined to make up for lost time..
I pleasantly chat about stuff and make them feel like they are important and not simply a pair of strong arms. I ask their opinion and listen to their input..
Yeh, I buy lunch on occasion and I make sure they have something in their belly when they start in the morning.. I know they need to drink and if they are doing well they get ice cold water,, if I think they need to pick up the pace I provide caffeinated drinks. Lunch always has caffinated drinks! I want them buzzing and not loggy after lunch..
The one thing I have learned is patience.. I'm a real type A person but when I teach I make sure that they understand before I turn them loose. You can see it in their eyes and read their body language to know when they are ready.. I don't expect them to understand at first, usually my forst demo is just proof that it really works and then I watch to make sure they follow every step.. You'd be amazed at the things that will distract them at learning time. Some of it is caused by fear,, fear that they will fail and disappoint me. fear of the equipment whatever.. I make it clear that mistakes do happen,, often they can be fixed and if not the price of wood is so cheap as to not make a big issue of a simple mistake.. once they feel that way they develope more confidence and you need to be extremely carefull that they don't get over confident..
maybe its just where i am but it seems we are missing a generation, I am friends with a lotta carpenters that worked together through the years, We are all in our 50s, My boy is 27 and a carpenter but hardly any of his friends are in the trades, every contractor here cannot find carpenters, whats missing is the 30ish strong smart carpenters, If there are any they can start there own bizness right away or never leave there jobs. My boy can go to work right away for 6 good contractors if he wants to, They even ask me at the lumberyard if he will work, He has his own lic and truck and tools i doubt he would work for less then 30 an hour
Even though I only hire carpenters these days instead of being one myself (and I miss that almost as much as I miss my 30-year-old body), I'm dismayed that the going pay rate today is essentially what it was 15 years ago. I pay whatever it takes to get as good as I can find, but there seems little difference in choices -- pretty much everyone is shooting at bottom-dollar. But that's not the main thing -- just a contributing factor, and perhaps a minor one.
Seems to me that many folks, not just in the trades but everywhere, hold the Wal-Mart model as the one to emulate. Give the absolute minimum that's likely to be accepted, and make up quality cost with volume. It's what I'd like to think Erich Fromm would have called "having carpenter skills" vs "being a carpenter". When what one does becomes a commodity rather than a reflection of who they are, distinctions like good help and barely good enough help tend to fuzz together.
It bothers me that what might have been barely passable when I was learning the trade (yeah, probably selective memory) seems to qualify as exemplary today. I just don't see a lot of carpenters who are so proud of their work that they'd rather take pains than leave early; and paying them more often just means that they can leave earlier because they've already made enough.
Sure, I coulda learned me up some crack crews, and think I did that to the extent I was able, but I don't know where they are now. By the time I was no longer able to bang nails myself, I was also unable to keep up with the kids I hired. So I try to set the tone, be an a-hole when absolutely necessary, and pretty much give them their head. The result is not usually what I'd have accepted back in the day, and I do realize that this is my decision.
}}}}
I honestly believe that some of the younger generation is not as interested in hard back breaking work. Try to find a stone mason? I know of a house moving company that went out of business because they could not get help regardless of what they offered. Not to generalize, but what I see a lot of, whats in it for me now, and when can I get holidays or thats sure hard work. I was at the grocery store one day and I was listening to a young clerk lament to a customer how hard her day had been. I could tell she was barking up the wrong tree as the fellow (in his late 40's) she was talking to appeared to be a welder. She proceeded to explain to him that she had been at college earlier and was now having to work four hours. After she finished he explained to her that he worked 12hr days most always, and hard work too. This concluded the conversation.
Just my two bits.
You said what I said, only better. Thanks.My brain + his brawn = a perfect team
To be fair when i hired guys i could not keep them busy so it was hard to keep a crew, Every once in awhile something like this would happen, weather breaks i have a roof to rip off, call 6 guys i give work to, 2 wont work welfare came from there wifes, 2 have to go to the state fair cause there wifes planned it, one has a sick kid( lie) ones in jail wants me to post bail, Customer calls me mad as heck wants there roof done NOW, It got to the point i would give a bonus if a guy worked all week, Not many did, After one day of ripping a roof off most could not make it the next, I did find older guys had more mind power to last. But to be fair i had to find guys that did not have a job, I was happy to find someone that could at least call me down measurements from the roof
It's never changed. Primary problem is that humans make up the work force.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
oh man, here we go.
I think that people in general have been trained by our culture to want instant gritification. when was the last time you got rich on your first time doing something in the trades? when did all go smoothly day in and day out? think about it. there are a lot of things that pay better , are less fustrating, and have better working conditions. anyone with good work ethics, half a brain, and a go get em attitude are in those other jobs. guess what's left? people who don't have a go get em attitude, less than half a brain, and a what's in it for me work ethic. The few , the proud, the ones that work hard (like many here) are the ones who are running things and looking for this help. If we just hired each other we pobably wouldn't have any complaints (except we couldn't possibly sell a job for what it takes to have all high paid quality peolpe). It's the down side to capitalism and progress. the dollar wins every time. An average job must compromise quality help and quality product somewhere in order to stay competitive and stay in business. that's my 2 cents. (worth only 1 cent these days)
"it aint the work I mind,
It's the feeling of falling further behind."
Bozini Latini
35 years ago, I was trying to get started doing anything. And, because I didn't have experience I couldn't get anyone to even talk to me. I was a smart kid, took all the math, science, drafting and shop classes I could in school. I was a quick and willing learner with the foundation to learn any of the trades. Having spent my formative years on farms and ranches, I had and have a strong work ethic, and was willing to do just about anything. (You spend an entire summer mucking out the coops of an old chicken farm, and after that most anything is gravy.)
Nobody would give me a break. I'm sure there were probably guys complaining then that they couldn't get good help.
They are out there, if you want to find them start asking around, church, softball league, soccer fields, even stop and talk to the skate boarders. Drop by your nearest high school and talk to a shop teacher if they still have one, or counselor or math teacher. Look for kids that aren't "college material" but can learn, and bring them up. Look for the motor heads, if they can figure out how to work on their own car, they have enough mechanical aptitiude to learn most of the trades, and cars are an expensive habit, that limits their ability to have other worse habits, and gives them a strong need for money.
I think we all need to remember that if work were always fun, bosses would be selling tickets instead of giving out a paycheck. I am a boss, and my business partners need to remind me of this once in a while.
don't know if it's the same in the States as in NZ and Auss but one major factor seems to be training at trade school another is the fact there seems to be no respect for experience and or leadership