The new granite counter that I had installed this week is a replacement job. Why? Nothing is level. Off of the main slab on the counter there are two pieces on each side. One seam which opened up today drops down 3/8″ from the seam to the wall end. On the other side the piece is a shade mismatch which is about 10′ long. Of the three slabs I bought to do the job, two were a perfect match and the other was slightly off in shading. They mixed the shaded one on the counter along with one of the others enstead of putting it on the island by itself. The owner said after a fair amount of complaining that he would replace the mismatched one on the counter if he could remove it without breaking the one next to it. But there are so many problems with the whole job, that after one of the seams opened up today I faxed him demanding my money back and I fired them. Luckily I only gave them 25% down. Not the 1/2 down they wanted. I know you are suppose to give them a chance to make it right, but I don’t see the talent to make that happen. What are your thoughts? GW
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I think the relative humidity in your house is too low, and the granite dried out and shrunk.
But wait ... stone doesn't drop 3/8" all by itself. Before you mangle your relationship too badly, maybe you better find out what's happening under the stone. Did the granite sub also do the cabinets? They don't here, so it may not be his problem. Unless he tried to shim the stone to an out-of-level cabinet and used plumbers putty.
Since he offered to move the pieces to get a better color match (which he should have done the first time), I think I would resolve the cabinet problem and then give him another chance. You might be better off having him take the slabs back to his shop while the cabinets are corrected.
But then we can't see all the details of the project. but I don't see the talent to make that happen Are you saying they don't seem competent?
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Ed,
They took off the original tile and replaced the plywood deck. Yes, I do not think that they are competent. There were about five mexicans, some probably new to California, and no, they did not have a straight edge or a level on the job. Everything was done by "eye". I watched the installation. GW
One could argue that you don't need a straight edge or level to install granite countertops. The stone won't bend, so you lay the stone on top of the existing cabinets (the cabinets that the millwork sub installed nice and level), and shim any localized gaps. The only straightedge needed would be one to check the elevation difference between abutting slabs, and that could be done with a 12" steel ruler.
Lacking any other proof, I am still inclined to say that the cabinets are suspect.
BTW, I'm a good ole 'Mericun white boy, but I've got a little problem with you using their nationality as a reason for the quality of the work.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Ed,
You are wrong to the effect that if too much mud is placed in a given area, the stone will show a hump especially if you clamp down the edges. I am far away from any cabinet shop being made responsible for any elevation issue. I am a hardwood floor installer/ finisher. If there is a hump in the subfloor, I have to fix it or get others to fix it before I install the floor or its my tush. No comments were made as to any concerns with the plywood deck they installed. I assume that you are not from So. California. The Mexican immigrants have taken away many jobs from qualified installers in construction here and it shows up in the quality of the workmanship. That is a generalized statement, but it rings home here in So. Cal. I can guarantee you that I did not get journeyman on my job. GW
Edited 9/25/2004 10:55 pm ET by Greg Warren
There is some pretty fancy stone work in Mexico.
I agree with you on that note. It is obivious that I got hookup with a team that was not skilled at installing granite. I have had granite installed before. In my last house, the guys that did that job did a wonderful job. I could have used them again but I wanted to support my local community. Monday morning I am calling the other granite company to come out and do the replacement. GW
You need to let them try to make it right. They would'nt have to install a plywood deck if your cabinets were'nt sub-standard to begin with.
As for out of level thats not their problem unless they installed the cabinets. I'm not so sure you would want the top level if your cabinets are not. It would not wash well with the eye.
And cut the bigotry. I could understand anyone not being as attentive to quality for a customer whose breathing down their necks with an attitude
The original plywood on top of the cabinets, two years old and not cheap, was 3/4 ACX. The granite installer said that he needed to change it to 5/8" or the plywood edge would show up underneath it. It was a waste of money because there is so much glue under the granite that the edge of the 5/8 shows. I wasn't breathing down their necks by the way. I came in and looked once in a while. I was off early. It wasn't until after they left on Thursday that I noticed the problems and the days since. One of the seams opened up this afternoon and the granite is loose in that area. When I asked the owner why I never got a call to look at the templete layout on the granite slabs he tried to tell me that I told him on the phone to go ahead without me. An outright bold lie. Would you want to keep on working with someone that makes up lies to try and cover for their mistakes? For what it is worth, anyone that wants to breath down my neck when I am installing or finishing floors, more power to ya. 25 years at it and better than ever. GW
Did I forget to tell you that when you look down the line of the granite edge detail, the added piece of granite on the counter doglegs left. I guess they did not have a chalk line either. Oh, but who needs one, right? By the way, my only helper that I use is a 32 year old guy named Cesar. That's right, he is a Mexican. GW
There's certainly a lot I can't see from here, but my instinct based on what you are describing is that you are right to fire them and cut your losses and move on. The only alternative would be for them to provide an obvious journeyman to come out to your house, go over the problems, describe how he is going to fix them, and then do so promptly. If they offer that, maybe take them up on it.
I have had tons (literally!) of granite installed on cabinets in kitchens and baths and it depends largely on the cabinets (which I have built and installed in many, many cases). The stone installers come in, lay out blobs of adhesive on the subtops, and set the slabs. If for some reason the cabinets were not level then the guys I use would walk. They hardly need levels and they definitely don't need straightedges. The cuts are all made in the shop and the pieces butt together. Any irregularities in the walls are identified in advance when they template the job. Stone installs in typical kitchens and baths should be quick and easy and should come out damn near perfect.
Why would I get a dogleg from one piece to another? Poor layout at the cutting table? One of my builders says that it is common for slab guys to string line out the counter edge to make sure that it is straight. The owner just keeps talking about how great his company is. He never has said that they made a mistake. How can I have any confidence in using them any longer when they won't own up to their failure. They will probably just make the same mistakes again or other ones just as bad. They don't seem to have a clue and do not know how to deal with a replacement issue/client. GW
In reading your posts I can see some potential problems, and yes, the "Mexican" guy was right about using 5/8" for the rough top. And in his defense, 1/4" rough top wouldn't work if the cabinets were not set level. I have seen many, many, many cabinet installations where the cabinets are set in placed, not leveled and barely/rarely shimmed. The cabinet installers leave that up to the tile guys to fix when they float their beds for the tile. In response to the color not matching, that is something to be addressed. He may have broken one piece and the new slab could be a shade off, or one pieces or a few pieces may be darker because they are still wet and have not dried out.
Be careful with the words you use, most of these "Mexicans" aren't. They are from El Salvador, Guatamala, Peru, Ecuador, ect. They proper term is "Latins". They are no worse/better than us "white guys" Some of the most qualified subs I know are Latins. It's hard to accept that they are taking the work away form others whan homeowners only want to pay $40 a day for a laborer in SoCal. And some "white" employers are hiring/abusing them.
Give him a chance to fix it.
The owner is not a mexican. He is a middle aged white guy like me. Many of the granite installers I come in contact with are Latinos and perform their jobs with great skill. The Latios on my job were winging it. They were not experienced. I might have gotten the owners 2nd string. My job needed the first string. Since I live in a million dollar+ tract home, most of the homeowners here have granite slabs. We all have cabinets built by the same company and they are not the low end by any means. They are not custom, but are the best one would see in high end tract. I have not heard of anyone having granite slab problems. They have a lot of other problems though. Centex, what can I say. GW
Cabinets by EuroDesign???
Some of their installers can't set level if their life depended on it...
"The owner is not a mexican. He is a middle aged white guy like me."
And the cheapest bid ? An old buddy ?
Greg, I respect you.
I have read your posts over the time you have been here, and it doesn't seem like you would take the lowest bid. If you were not already sure the sub's work was up to par.
But why do I get the feeling you tried to cut corners here and got bit ?
You keep talking after the fact. What about the times you were actually there ? How did this happen if you were popping in on them from time to time ? Did you just chat with them, or did you actually look at the work ? If I had popped in on them while they were working, I certainly think I would have noticed out of level, and a dog leg.
If the counter seams have opened up after the fact, then the counter sections moved at the outside ends. That is not the countertop's fault. It is what is under the countertop that allowed it to move.
Why does it feel like you dropped the ball and are being too quick to pass the cost on to someone else ? My gut tells me we are not getting the whole story here.
A bone to the dog is not charity. Charity is the bone shared with the dog, when you are just as hungry as the dog.
-- Jack London
I have seen this companys work on two occasions. Both jobs were on two doctors homes that I also worked in. It appeared good to me; nice seams etc. I got a bid originally from a company that did my last installation. They were basically the same price so I went with the guy in town. Fallbrook is a small rural agricultural town of 40K and we are pretty separate from the rest of San Diego county. I wanted to support someone here. I am moving on to the original installation company because I have no faith that the current company has the desire to correct the problem fully. They are in lost profit/losing savings mode now. The seam that I have described peaks to start with. If one were to put a 4' level on it, it has a 1/4+ rocker on it. Remember that this is 5/8 plywood that they installed. The main sink slab is on the left as one faces the counter. On the right of it is a 4-5' length piece. From the seam to the end wall of that piece, it drops approx. 3/8" below the squareness of the main sink slab. The installers had a 2 x 4 wedged under my finished upper cabinet (without any protection, so it is scratched and the wallpaper is torn) down to the back section of the granite at the seam. The front of the seam was clamped overnight. When all of these products were removed by the company owner, it opened up the next day. It was under pressure and it wasn't glued properly. You can hand move the main slab at the seam approx. 10" back into the slab. I ONLY hire those who I think will do a professional job. I normally take the higher bidder. I usually hire the company that I want and get the price later. I don't know the owner of the company. The owner has basically called me a liar. He claims there were phone calls from me to cut the slab without my site-seen approval. Does my personality fit that comment. That was one of the reasons I liked their sales pitch. I could be involved in that decision. That sign off of the templetes was an important element of their process. If I was to call and say just cut it, don't you think they would have required a faxed sign off? GW
I am familiar with Hispanic workers, both flag-waving and foreign exchange students. San Antonio is quite close to the border, and we get more than anough temporary workers.
The dog leg should not be there, and if the joint is tight that means the edge of one or both slabs was not cut at 90*.
You can hand move the main slab at the seam approx. 10" back into the slab. Don't understand. The slab moves 10 inches? You must mean something else.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
That is what I mean Ed. Obiviously I don't want to break the slab so I can carefully lift up on the main slab and you can see it move at the seam and the other part of the right angle about 10". There just isn't any glue there to hold it down. GW
Ok, I understand better.
It sounds to me like you have gotten closer to the bottom line than you may understand. Or, more likely, you understand it, I just didn't see it yet.
The guy is desperate. He is robbing peter to pay paul. He has hired the least expensive labor he can find, and is allowing crappy work, just to get the quick funds to try to keep his company afloat.
He will fail anyway, because he has no foundation. And because he is acting in desperation for himself, instead of in the customer's interest. He will take several people with him. And along the way, many customers will get the shaft.
In your shoes, understanding what I now understand, (And I know you already understood.), I would also want to cut my losses and tell them to take a hike.
But others here are right.
If you do that, you may end up paying twice.
I would get a lawyer involved. Write up a DETAILED explanation of exactly what you want done. Give the guy a reasonable time to do it. And tell him that if he does not do it, then he forfeits the right to ask for any more money.
Then.... Make sure that someone who really really knows the job, is watching them like a hawk when they re-do it. No one likes being watched like a hawk, but they gave up their rights there when they screwed up the first time.
Letting them fix it... and hiring someone else just to watch them and make sure they do it RIGHT... is going to be a lot cheaper than all the court costs of any other solution.
Who knows, maybe the owner of that company will decide to cut his costs, too. And just walk away from it...
A bone to the dog is not charity. Charity is the bone shared with the dog, when you are just as hungry as the dog.
-- Jack London
To me, it's pretty simple........if you do ANY thing over anothers guys work you gotta check his work out. .........or it soon becomes pass-the-buck-time
No level........no straightedge.............no workee.
If the man in charge is hiring laborers for his crew then he has to stay on the job......make the decisions and take the blame.
but I don't see the talent to make that happen.
You're the man looking. A mistake we all make, .........incompetance on the other hand will rear it's ugly head over and over and over.............again. I wouldn't want someone OJTing one of my jobs.
This is s funny thread. Here in Naples, FL all installers - I mean ALL - check out the situation before bringing the granite into the home and tell you what needs to be done if they think additional this or thta is needed.
I realize this may not be the most brilliant suggestion, but why don't you just call them and ask them to come to look at the situation ans top wasting your time here with this thread and all of the maybe it's this or maybe it's that?
BTW 99% of the installers and about 80% of the business owners are Mexican,or Cuban - just terrific people dong terrific work.
The owner has been out to my house. He just looks at the problems and says nothing other than he is a born and raised citizen of Fallbrook and that he has a great company. He never admits to any failure. He said that he would replace the mismatched side of the granite on the counter but then the seam failure and the elevation issues came up over the weekend as I looked into why the seam failed. There are so many various problems that it would not be wise on my part to let them r & r the granite a second time if they were unable to see the problems in the first place. If I have to I would rather lose my 2500.00 deposit on this 10K job than have possible future problems with this substandard installation. Every element of that stone company failed to do their job from the owners, sales rep, saw cutters and installers. They told my wife the day they tore out the tile and mudbed that it was unnecessary to move anything out of the kitchen drawers. Everything got dusted down and I wife is spending the weekend cleaning every cabinet out and washing all the silverware,pot and pans and desk drawers. GW
Edited 9/26/2004 11:36 am ET by Greg Warren
Then you pay your attorney $150 to send them a letter advising them that they have 5 days to correct the situation or you will contact another granite company, have them come out, remove the tops, either take care of the sagging section themselves or tell you what is wrong so you can correct it, reinstall the top and deduct their charges a from the balance due to the original contractor.
A cheap, legal, logical appraoch. I had to do just that on one job. I like to keep it simple and involve as few people as possible in these screw ups.
Relieve your selves the aggravation and take the above approach. I would also back chaarge them a miminum of $12 per hour (or local cleaning lady rates) for your wife having to clean anything.
Take digitized photos to your lawyer so s/he can see exactly what you are explaining to her/him.
I'd rather lose my 2500.00 than have to put up with these amatuers any longer. My wife does not want them here anymore. If they sue me I have the pictures of all of their major errors and the proceeding contractor can tell me why it failed and what needs to be done to repair the problems.
If you dont allow them to try to make it better and they sue you you will lose. its that simple. You could end up paying two granite companys the full amount.
Now is not the time to burn the bridge. I would tell them exactly what they need to do to fix the situation then wait to see if they can do it to my satisfaction.
If they cannot satisfy the level of quality you expect on a second attempt, then find some one who will.
Get some legal advice now.
You are right. I will call them in the morning to see if they want to walk. If not I guess I am stuck with them for now. I'll let you all know what happens. GW
First, let me say I could afford a 10K counter job about as well as I can fly, but I tend to agree with you. Why let people who have shown you they are incompetent back to possibly make it worse (and then charge more money)? I'd be inclined to write off the downpayment and get someone else. Like you said, the owner seems to be lying about your giving verbal okay on the job; not worth hassling with him.
I don't work around enough "mexican" guys here in Pgh to help fight about that ...
but I have worked around lotsa granite countertops ...
I install 99% of the time factory made cabinets in these kitchen jobs ....
and the stone guys install over those.
unless it's needed for a an overhang or unusual layout ... there's no ply added.
They just set the countertop right over the cabs as is ....
They do come in with levels and straight edges during the templating and check everything ... someitmes I'm asked to add a ledge somewhere or make a ply top for one or two cabs where the face frames have been cut to fit the appliances ...
on install day ... they come back and check again with those levels and straight edges ... to see where they'll have to shim ....
then a coupla dabs of silicone ... and down she goes. seams get caulked ... done.
Unless the cab's are way out .... and that would be so far out they'd screw up any counter top install of any material ... the cab's aren't really a factor.
I do usually start the install by telling them I set the cabs ... so they can leave the levels in the truck.
Ya know what ... they still check.
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
I guess the real question that I have is if you put an 8' level on the counter, what are the acceptable tolerances for gaps under that straight edge? That question I don't know, and many of the problems surround that answer. GW
I've never heard of the stone guys asking for anyhting to be torn out and reset ...
but keep in mind ... all my stuff is "perfect"!
uh .. yeah.. right.
guess it would depend on the stone .. and how it was set.
if a shim and the adhesive can fill the gap ... gotta be good, right?
How the one seam slip and fall?
The lower side had to have somewhere to go?
too much adhesive? Not enough shim?
if it was flat ... even if it was outta level ... can't go any farther than the thickness difference between the two slabs ....
all that aside .. if the owner came by and said they did no wrong ... there is a problem at that company ... if what ya said is true.
I'm pretty sure ... I have to give someone the chance to come back and fix their own mistakes ... don't think I can just tell them to beat it then have someone else come in a fix ... then backcharge then .... at least .. I know I can't without going to court.
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
I read the thread and I will say that I agree with Jeff's first post.........if you have slabs, why the heck are they installing plywood first and where is the edge of the ply that you don't see it?
Somethings way out of wack if the joint failed as you described. If you watched them do the install with no instruments you got what you asked for. I would have tossed them out the door.
Sorry.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
I am not experienced with granite, only hardwood floors. After the fact I realized that a straight edge, chalkline and a level would have been useful. That is why I am here asking questions of more knowledgable installers. The slab edge was suppose to cover the plywood but to much glue was used and the installers were unable to get the slab below it. It had plywood before and at this point the counter is 36" tall. The seam has chips on the edge since the granite split at the seam. The side that dropped down has no glue under it. GW
how does the slab edge cover anthing?
I've never seen granite that was "hogged out" .. for lack of a better phrase ... to the point it'd have a lip?
something in all this seems fishy. Doesn't sound like any installs I've been around ...
the granite comes in one thickness ... usually right around 1 1/4 ...lays over the cabs ...
and will have an edge routed on ..... sometimes a simple half round ... sometimes a fancy ogee of some type .... but never saw anything with what would amount to a built-up outter edge that could hide anything below.
I'll attach the website of the guys I've worked around ...
maybe you'll be able to find something in there that'll help ya out?
just all sounds odd ...
http://www.bcstone.com
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Buck,
I see more and more 3/4 stone slabs now with a built up front edge, much like Corian or other similiar solid surface materials.
I think I would be inclined at this point to rip every thing out and toss it through the fabricators front window doing about 60mph!
Seriously, he may be able to take it all apart and assess the situation for a re-install........as long as the fabricator doesn't get another dime.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
it is the ogee design with a lip that laps over the plywood. The problem is that so much mud was used that one can still see the plywood edge in many locations. He sold me new plywood so that that edge would not show. GW
The plywood should have been bonded to the stone PRIOR to the installation.
MUD?? as in mortar?? Never seen it used in a Natural Material(slab)counter top install.
I once did a beautiful cabinet installation, for a ho/gc, only to have the Stone guy come with his piece of crap level and tell the ho that the cabinets were 3/8 out of level on a 16 lin ft u shaped layout.
He shimmed up the top and filled in the space with colored epoxy.......marvelous!
Maybe this is the same guy. No, wait, your guy didn't even have a level!
You need to figure out what is up with the base, the cabinets before you do anything else.
Eric
I Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Edited 9/27/2004 7:06 am ET by firebird
The only thing I can add is something I've done from the beginning when dealing with subs................know them......... and use the same guys all the time.
I always hated hiring a stranger to do anything for me..........especially something as obvious (and expensive) as a granite counter top.
tough way to ever use granite again after the original stone guy dies?
pretty soon ... yer gonna run outta subs!
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Well today the granite owner called me after getting my faxes in regards to getting my money back. We agreed that he would fax me a release to sign and mail me a refund. Then he called me later and asked if he could come in and remove the granite that has been down for 4 days. We just had the plumbing reset and I did not feel that it was reasonable for my family to be without kitchen plumbing for a month. Also with their record, we did not want anymore damage. I told him that the new granite contractor that I had used in the past, someone that he knows, stated that he would try with great care to remove it with minimal damage. I think that he has another agenda on his mind. I don't think that he wants the other contractor to see the poor workmanship. Then he can just say that I was a nut case. The release has not hit my fax yet. If I don't get it by Wednesday, I will fax him with a demand notice or I will get an attorney. Games, Games, Games... Does that seem like the way to go? A new templete guy coming on Thursday. GW
The release came in the fax and the deposit I paid is in the mail.
Jeff
I agree with you that you don't need ply tops in order to put stone on the cabs but here is an example of some counter tops in a place we are providing cabinets for.
We had to put ply on these, you can see why.
that's the only reason that I can think of that you would need to add plywood. They mitered there stone and applied it like you would wood trim. The only way to get 2 1/2" looking stone I guess.
I recently finished a kitchen remodel that included new granite tops. When the customer and I went to the stone yard to select the slabs, there were both 2 cm and 3 cm slabs available in almost all of the colors.
If she had selected a 2 cm slab, the fabricator would have ripped a piece and laminated it to the front edge to make it appear thicker, just like a formica top. She picked a 3 cm slab, so they just profiled that as-is (as-was?). And, the 2 cm slab would have required a 5/8 ply sub-top, whereas the 3 cm did not. Anyway, that's the way my fabricator did it.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt