I’m a DIYer but occasionally I look for a real contractor to do something. One approach is to approach the crew on a job that I’ve been admiring, and ask for a card so I can contact the guy in charge. I truly believe that in 9 times of of 10, no one has a card or anything with a phone number on it. Sometimes I get a number scribbled on a piece of plywood. It would seem to me that it would make sense to have cards (or a sign) on the job so that obviously good work can lead to more business.
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I always carry mine,do you want one, (you'll get two actually, one for you, one to pass along...)
People who come in for a look ALWAYS get them, as they have now seen my quality work and will want to learn more....
It's more effective to give them out now int this situation, rather than cold calling and just giving them away; they don't grow on trees you know.
"If 'tis to be,'twil be done by me."
I always have a bunch in my wallet ...
there's also usually a stack somewhere or another near the job site paperwork ...
plus ... when I do have a helper ... he's usually stocked up.
and that's not to mention the emergency stack inside the Jeep and the van ... so no matter what I drive that morning .. their right there with me.
Plus ... I'm pretty sure I can't grab a coat outta the closet and not find a small stack in at least one pocket.
So ... to answer your question ... I have no idea why!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
You're doing it right Jeff! You're the one in ten that Javier mentioned.
Javier, there are a lot of little reasons for this seemingly odd business practice, but I think it can be summed up by saying that most construction crew owners are simply bad at being a business person.
Some of the contributing reasons are: "we're already busy enough...we don't need any more work". "Word of mouth is the best advertising". "I can't afford cards". "I don't need no stinkin' cards". "Want a card?-Get the #### outa here!"
I could go on, but I think you get the point.
blue
PS I never marketed in any way for the first 20 years of my business.....of course, I reaped my deserving rewards......nothing!Just because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I am one of those guys who never has cards with him.
I don't carry them as I have enough business without giving them out.
I must not charge enough as I am always swamped with work. I am a granite fabricator and have found I get better clients by referrals.
The biggest waste of time ever was when the local paper ran a story on me in the home and garden section and I got calls for about six weeeks from people who didn't really know what they wanted but hoped I could spend 30 minutes on the phone educating them. Others wanted me to come over and look at their home and make suggestions. I find I have no interest in these clients as even with me being on my best behaviour and making a few housecalls I didn't get a single job but I wasted upwards of 20 hours.
I like working with general contractors or well informed/connected homeowner DIY's who know what they want, know what to have prepared and don't expect me to solve problems outside my scope of work.
I know I sound like a prima donna but there is no shortage of work and I make more money if I avoid unknown/unreferred clients.
Karl
I don't even have cards. If you are not a referal from a previous client, I won't work for you.
Most construction companies aren't run as business's. They exist to provide a job (wages) for the owner. There's nothing wrong with this, it's just how it is.
A prepared businessman will have cards for you.
Jon Blakemore
I don't understand how someone can't "afford" cards. I just ordered some new one's from officemax.com. I paid $21 for 1000 with shipping. If you can't cough up $21 for cards, you shouldn't be in business. The other reasons were good though.
If you can't cough up $21 for cards, you shouldn't be in business.
It's kinda like the chicken and the egg thing Podge. Since the guys aren't running their business like a business, they REALLY CAN'T afford $21 for cards!
Besides, they spend all their money on tobacco and alcohol, not to mention weed.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
my boss got me 2000 cards. this was over ten years ago. Its in a box a foot long. I have no where in my truck to keep it. bump the box they go everywhere. Thats why I dont carry cards.
Your boss won't mind if you don't carry all 2000, just put a few in your wallet. ;)
Javier,
Now that you've heard at least a dozen reasons why these guys don't have cards, let me add one or two more.
In what capacity are these guys on the job? Are they subs to a larger GC or builder? I have in the past been on many jobs where the Builder or GC frowned upon handing out cards to passers by.
We've come to call it Fishing in another mans pond. Here is an example. As a stair rail installer I subbed installations for several different shops. None of them cared who else I worked for. But, not all of them were happy with installers giving out their cards. XYZ stair company was doing the job, not ABC construction. Any refferals went to the stair shop and we were a lock on that install. Some others didn't care if we gave out cards so long as we bought the parts for any job we landed while on one of their jobs from them.
I've seen a hundred variations on the above theme.
Also, not everyone wants the extra business. Many tradesmen would rather deal with their own kind or work in a small circle of refferals. They are uncomfortable outside that circle and make no effort to leave. There are tons of tradesmen who would go out of business overnight if the two or three GC's or builders who feed them most of their work closed up shop.
In what capacity are these guys on the job? Are they subs to a larger GC or builder? I have in the past been on many jobs where the Builder or GC frowned upon handing out cards to passers by.
Yup, I bet that has a lot to do with it. If I was an employer, I would have a hard time supporting an employee that hands out his/her card instead of mine.
As an employee, I have worked at a shop or two that would fire you for passing your own card, even if the work was unrelated to your employment.
An owner told me that the practice is termed "theft by deception". The potential client would never have known that you do the work if it wasn't for the work contracted by your employer (like the plumbing truck in the driveway and a neighbor asks for a card). That owner has fired and sued (ex)employees for the practice.
A couple of years ago, a local custom builder (who normally does his own trim), hired me to complete the trim on a couple of houses--so he could keep working on two other houses he was framing.I made the mistake of leaving one of my cards in one of the houses (I thought I was doing him and the HO a favor, since he was too busy--I was offering to be of further assistance). The builder tracked me down at another jobsite and He was all red-in-the-face, I thought he was gonna hit me. He saw my card in "his house" and went wacko. He is the best builder I know in the area and I won't ever get to work for him again.I had no idea how strongly some people feel about this issue...I just had the new biz cards made and was handing them out left and right. Now I am more careful.
Danski,
When I was a sole proprietor I had signs on my truck but I was sure to get magnetic ones. As a courtesy I often took them off when installing for a shop that Subbed out it's installs.
On a side note. When I first started out one of my first accounts was Blackstone lumber ( Now builders first source, or as we call it builders last resort). I can't tell you how many builders or GC's asked if I would be willing to work directly for them on the installs once they found out I was actually a self employed sub.
Once while helping a friend finish a basement in a development where we had trimmed for the original builder, the builder stopped by to let us know we owed him 20%. Now keep in mind the homeowner had tracked the trimmer down and wanted not a thing to do with the builder. And, the builder had closed this development out a year prior and turned the roads over to the township. His logic was that had he not built the development there would be no homeowners there and everyone who got a call from one of the homeowners in that development owed him 20%. Wanna guess what the chance were he got paid?
Robert,
I believe that your scenario regarding the finished basements a year after the subdivision closed out is different from an employed sub (not self employed) being solicited for work after someone sees a plumbing (for example) truck (owned by your employer) in the driveway.
Certainly a touchy situation for many employer/employee relationships. I have worked at shops that would fire an employee for soliciting work in the same general scope as what you were being paid to do by the boss. I also know people that have no problem taking work in that situation.
If I was a self employed contractor on a job, even a sub contracted out by another shop, I would have no issues if I was contacted by someone on or near the job.
I had cards for the first couple years in business, when they ran out I just felt I really didn't need them.
Although I will admit to having web space.
I fill a niche in my trade and 99% of the work I get is from word of mouth or referals. The type of homeowner that I tend to work for are the ones who have done their homework and know what they want. Somehow, they find me through their research.
When I first started out, with cards & a small ad in the local paper, I had to dedicate one day a week to go out and "look" at jobs, do estimates, etc. The ads generated more tire kickers than real job prospects. So.........I'd lose a days pay to "look" at jobs, and not get many jobs to boot! (most people were $$$$ shopping)
I decided to take myself out of that market, create a niche, and have been the better for it since.
That being said, you must understand that I am a "one man band", with a select number of people I can bring into my projects when needed. It works for me.
I'm sure that a company with a number of employees would need ads and cards to help generate more work.
I certainly don't think that it's "less" professional of me not to have cards.
Rod
I fill a niche in my trade and 99% of the work I get is from word of mouth or referals. The type of homeowner that I tend to work for are the ones who have done their homework and know what they want. Somehow, they find me through their research.
When I first started out, with cards & a small ad in the local paper, I had to dedicate one day a week to go out and "look" at jobs, do estimates, etc. The ads generated more tire kickers than real job prospects. So.........I'd lose a days pay to "look" at jobs, and not get many jobs to boot! (most people were $$$$ shopping)
My situation is very similar. I've developed a relationship with a number of high end builders/remodelers who I let do most of the selling for me.
In regards to the "qualifying customers" thread, if a homeowner can find me, they've "qualified" themselves.
I'm also working on a website, more for clarification of what I do, rather than an actual sales generation tool.You're almost as paranoid as the people that're trying to kill me.
In regards to the "qualifying customers" thread, if a homeowner can find me, they've "qualified" themselves.There's a lot of truth to that statement. Rod
Last month I had a more complex but similar scenario on one of my jobs. We did a complex renovation on a lake home ($500k+). The owners, a physician and his wife, a realtor. They insisted and used their own electrician. (yes, I do know better)Late in the job a neighbor across the lake came on the job site and asked the electrician for the builder. He asked why. The neighbor wanted to tear down their existing home and build a new one (about $900 worth). The electrician gave the neighbor his card saying he and his brother built homes. I was at the lumber yard getting material at the time, but fortunately my trim carpenter overheard the entire conversation.An employee, subcontractor, or supplier never solicits work on another builders job in our area without 1st clearing it with the builder. Everyone knows the rule, everyone who wants to stay in business and healthy respects it.I threw the electrician off the job site, told him to never set foot on the site when any of my people or subs were there, and informed the owner, who agreed. My people nor my subcontractors had or ever would get work from this scum bag. His remaining time on the job was, I'm sure, the most unpleasant and costly in his career. As a side lite, we're bidding the neighbors house this week.Never serious, but always right.
In reply to why the guys dont have signs at the job or on the truck is the way it was explained to me from my boss. Dishonest low life people drive around and look for trucks with a company name on them and cause an accident because they believe that the company has a lot of money for a lawsuit. If I was not a tardesman I would hire a guy that was refered to me by someone else. Thus way I know the guy did good work or he would not have been refered to me. Plus I (not trying to be an A.H.) dont have the time to entertain a home owners questions when I'm working on someone elses project. These people have hired the company to be at work on there house not talking to a prospected client on their home. I do pass along the companies info including e=mail and fax numbers but I dont talk to them about there project on other peoples ticket.
One shop I worked for had nameless trucks for many years (before I started there) for that very reason, to prevent accident fraud and tool theft. Eventually, though, the business name went on the trucks for the advertising factor.
that insurances goes both ways. I go into alot of chemical plants and refinery. If the truck does not have permnant decals ( No magentic) it does not get in.
I sell and I often ask for a business card rather than do the 20 questions bit when they want literature/ applications sent to them. one out of 10 guys has one..
Carpenters aren't real good businessmen based on almost a decade and a half working with them.. they talk about it here on this site but real world in the field guys often fail to market themselves, or have a real business plan or anything resembling that nature of the business..
Most still believe they can work by word of mouth and referals.. (and somehow you're supposed to know them) ..
Makes me laugh.
FHb was nice enough to have a forum with a Business Section so guys can type in and ask all sorta business related questions. Most of which are .... How do I start getting work ... How do I get more work ...
Then there's a thread about handing out business cards .... pretty much the lowest cost and simplest of marketing methods .... very effective also, expecially considering the low buy in cost. Pretty much silent, low pressure marketing ....
And the thread ends up being filled with posts trashing the idea of passing out business cards!
Just makes me laugh ....
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Jeff J. Buck - "Then there's a thread about handing out business cards .... pretty much the lowest cost and simplest of marketing methods .... very effective also, expecially considering the low buy in cost. Pretty much silent, low pressure marketing ....
And the thread ends up being filled with posts trashing the idea of passing out business cards!
Just makes me laugh ...."
Yeah I gotta agree with you on this one for sure. What the heck are they talking about? Talk about rationalizing stupity. I can't belive what I'm reading here.
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Jerrald, and Jeff,
I have to disagree to some extent and in some circumstances.
When I first went out on my own it was with limited capital and big bills. I developed a mutually beneficial relationship with several larger business. Mostly stair shops and milwork companies. They would send me plans and specifications. I would attach a price and a time frame to each one in my reply. If we could agree, I put it on my schedule.
I usually got less for those jobs then ones I sold myself. I also didn't: sell the job, order and pay for the material or collect the money. I did: Do the job to the best of my ability, bill the shop, get paid within 7 days.
While it wasn't the best, most profitable relationship, I was able to do two very important things. One, I could maintain a cashflow and a reasonable profit. Two, by not having to go out and sell for every dime that came in I was free to concentrate on landing jobs worth doing. Ones that paid what I wanted.
Yes I did have a box of business cards in my truck. Yes, if a neighbor came up and asked me about building a deck while I was trimming for a millwork shop I absolutely would give them one of my overly expensive cards. If they were asking about trim and it was a millwork shop I would reffer them to the salesmen. Hell, I knew I would be getting the job anyway.
I've been in plenty of situations where it would have been suicide to hand out a business card. To not have them is silly. But sometimes ya just bite your tounge and say " sorry, I don't". Not everyone is a GC working directly for the Customer. I would never bite the hand of a shop that fed me $80K a year worth of work so I could do some crappy $1500 iron rail replacement job for someone that was never gonna call me again. .
apples and oranges.
when I sub .... I write the name/number of the GC on "my" card and hand it to the inquiring mind and tell them "call and say Jeff told ya too" ....
That way ... the GC gets the call ... and I get the credit due. Just because a sub carries his own cards doesn't mean he's a job stealing whore. Besides ... that's not what half these posts are about ... there's lotsa bragging about not seeing the need for a little convient slip of paper with yer name and number already printed on it!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Jeff, I always do the same...give the inquirer the name and number of the builder that has hired me. I've always shown the builder respect and loyalty, even when he didn't deserve it.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
I thought this was going to be a pretty dumb thread, but I find it fascinating. I had no idea of the ethical issues involved, e.g. approaching a sub on a big job, etc., and I think most "consumers" of construction work don't either.
Im tired
been a long day
maybe this has been addressed
but a different twist
I am the general contractor, without me , the subs may not have been there
many of my "employees" are subs. they have their own licence, so they take care fo their own workers comp and taxes, but they work with/for me. so they are not subs in the sence of plumbers, electricains ,etc. IM talking about the guys with me 24/7, whose ony real biz is mine.
they use my tools,work my hours, etc etc.
examples
1) we are doinng an addition on a persons home, they ask the electricain to give them a price for adding a few extra circuits ad lights in another part of the house, to do so will take my drywallers, my painters etc to finish or clean up after the elctrician, shouldnt I get a cut, shouldnt I have been included
the elctrican gave the owner his card and said call me later ( well maybe thats ok)
2) I went to bid a difficult job one day, took one of "my" guys with me ( remeber they have thier own licence) because it sounded difficult and I wanted input. As we left the job the employee/sub said to the owner, "hey if he is too expensive, call me" and handed him his card
we drove back to the job , calmly ( a few blocks) and as we exited the truck, I said
" grab your tools your done" he thought I was unreasonable and didnt understand he was just looking out fo himself
hey , dont go away mad, just go away
so should a person have biz cards at a job site
depends who ( and thier position) the person is
Isa, quit hiring morons!
That's a great story!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Here's one for you Blue,
A friend and Ex Partner of mine called me and asked what i thought about a job. He's slow and needs something to fill the gap but doesn't want to do it for nothing. He got the lead from the kid who works for him. The kid used to work for the guy supplying the Custom crown on the job.
So, while at the job they look it over and all the while my friend is trying to figure out how badly he wants this job. It's a mess and he has no idea how to price it. As they're wrapping things up the GC says " This job is tough but i need it done. would you like to just bill me your going rate. What is that by the way" as he responds with " My rate is $50 per man ho..............." his helper chimes in with " were slow so you can drop my rate to $25 an hour if that will help you get the job".
All right there in front of the GC.
"they use my tools,work my hours, etc etc."It sounds like they are employees.That is one of the tests of an employee vs a sub.How much direct control that you have over them.But you are paying them as sub's.No wonder there is confusion about their loyalities.
Absolutely.
Isamemon could find himself in hot water with the IRS and the workers comp people if either comes sniffing around his business.
i keep a stack in my wallet and in my truck. i did give some to my workers to keep and out if someone needed one but what ended up happening is they got "lost".
the problem is these guys just are there for the paycheck even if they dont realize it.occaisionally there will be an employee who truly understands that the more work we have the less worries there will be as to where their and my bills will be paid. i'm 38 a guy on my crew is 37 and we have been workibg together for almost 20 years and yet he still doesnt get , hes a good carp but doesnt always the company in mind .
but im glad you posted this as i will hand out more cards to the guys because you never know. they just might have in their floorboards and hand it to the asking potential customer and we will be able to feel comfortable.
tyke
Just another day in paradise
Speaking of no business cards....
Frank and I were basement hunting yesterday. We entered a sub and found four basements almost ready for framing. We get out and walk all around; can't find any indication of who is building them. We continue on driving in the sub. We find model. No sign anywhere...no name, no number to call...nothing. We find several houses in various stages of completion. Nothing. No name, no signs, nothing. I see a stack of windows stacked in the garage. Usually they have stickers that tell us what builder...nope...nothing. I notice a small crayone marking, made by the stockyard guys...it say RJ. Aha...a clue!
We keep driving around and somewhere, I'm not sure where, I noticed a very small sign propped somewhere...it has the letters rj in some very hard to read fond...an ancient script or something. Tiny little rj's....no numbers, only something that has been blacked out with marker or paint.
I finally find Frank, he's on the road talking. Its a builder. We pitch him, he's interested. We start interviewing him about his volume. He says he expects his best year ever. Last year, he developed a big site, sold off 90 lots for cashflow, then built 105 units. As we are departing, I ask for his card. I get the "I don't know if I have one.....he scratches around his truck and finally produces one, but has to pen in his cell phone.
The name on the card says RJ!
You would have to be Sherlock Homes to contact and buy from him and he's sold more than 100 houses last year!
Who needs cards....we don't need no stinkin' cards!
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!
Here is my two cents worth.
I worked for the past 10 yrs for the same guy. When someone would come up and ask for a name and number I would give them his. Often they ask if I "moonlight" since theirs is a small job. The only answer to that question was...... Talk to St***, if he doesn't want the job ask him if he knows anyone who might, or if one of his guys can do it on a weekend. Then call me. If he bids it or even comes out I am out of the picture. I never bite the hand that feeds me. This has worked well for me. I am now on my own and he sends me all his "little stuff" which these days is anything less than 250K. If I get asked about anything to ig for me I recommend him and sub the carpentry from him. But, I do have business carsds now, and I would never pass out my card when I am subbing from someone. I sub from some of the big gc's around here and I have their cards in my truck, if I am on thier jobs I give out their cards.An inch to short. That's the story of my life !
bstcrpntr --- I hope to grow into this name.
Bstcarp, you and I think alike.
I always promptly told the GC, or my boss whenever anyone solicited me for anything or I'd give them their card while praising them and building their image.
blueJust because you can, doesn't mean you should!
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. There are some in here who think I'm a hackmeister...they might be right! Of course, they might be wrong too!