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Discussion Forum

Why So Hard on Building Inspectors?

| Posted in General Discussion on November 4, 1999 03:39am

*
I think there are a few reasons folks get “het up” about home inspectors.

First there are _some_ jerk home inspectors out there.

Second, and the leading reason, IMHO, is unrealistic expections of what a home inspector does and can do.

I’m a home inspector, and I try to make it clear to my clients that I’m a generalist, that my job is to spot potential problems (focusing on major issues) and, when appropriate, to refer them to a specialist for further review. (When the conversation leads that way, I’ll say something like “If I knew as much as a licensed electrician, plumber, HVAC mechanic, appliance sevicman, structural engineer, etc, I’d be driving a Mercedes SUV and have 2 or three boys carrying my ladder.” I usually don’t have to say, “and you’d be writing a lot bigger check” )

I’d say expectations is the biggest source of problems. I have 2-3 hours to go through an entire house: that’s what my local market expects and is willing to pay for. When folks expect too much, and fail to take these market realities into account, problems will arise. I also offer an “inspection plus” where I’ll take more time and look for minor issues as well as major, the inspection plus costs more. I have _never_ had a client take me up on it.

Another issue: many of the things we deal with require subjective judgements. Example: reversed polarity v. overfusing. They are both safety issues, but not at the same level of concern. I _think_ most folks would agree that reversed polarity isn’t as big a risk as overfusing. My subjective judgement might not be the same as yours, however, as to the degree of safety concern on reversed polarity. (When my wife is done with the electric frying pan, she turns it off _and_ unplugs it. I just turn it off.)

Also, home inspecting is a high liability area. Makes some home inspectors a bit gun shy. The more problems you call out, and the bigger you make them sound, the safer you are. Not a great way to serve your client, however, IMO.

Lastly, remember that most home inspections take place in connection with the sale of a property. The buyer is usually pretty nervous at this point (“Did I make a stupid decision? Is this the right thing to do”) and sellers can be pretty nervous too. Add a couple of RE agents salivating over a pending commision check and you begin to realize its a potentially volatile situation.

Bob

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  1. Bob_Walker | Nov 05, 1999 03:38pm | #11

    *
    Tuk:

    << If you do an inspection do an inspection. If you are even thinking about nervous homeowners or real estate agents you arent doing your job. Your job is supposed to be to repore anything wrong. How someone reacts to your report is their problem. Do what you were hired for. >>

    I mentioned nervous folks as one of the reasons people get so worked up about home inspectors.

    Please re-read my post. It already addresses statements about what my job is.

    <>

    FWIW, I don't market thru real estate agents: I want it to be clear that my _only_ concern is with my clients and their needs.

    <>

    Maybe you haven't looked hard enough or maybe you have an attitude.

    Bob

    1. Bob_Walker | Nov 05, 1999 03:48pm | #12

      *Jb:<>Yep. The degree of responsibility/liability I assume in the contract depends on the type of inspection I'm hired to do. A "standard" (read, what the typical inspection offered in my area is) has limited liability because the $ the customer pays is a lmited fixed fee. My "premium" inspection (which I offer, but no one's taken me up on) has unlimited liability but the fee is hourly based and much higher than the standard fee.Even with the limited liability, I've paid more for something I missed: I paid to rebuild a portion of a badly spalled chimney that I should have caught.I'm insured.Bob

  2. Guest_ | Nov 05, 1999 06:46pm | #13

    *
    Bob - Still, it seems to me your neck is stuck WAY out there. It seems to me your liability far exceeds your potential for gain - not that I know what you charge.

    That fireplace is probably a good example of cost to fix vrs. wages to inspect. What if the house burned down instead of just having to repair it? Man, I wouldn't sleep well at night if I had your profession. - jb

    1. Guest_ | Nov 05, 1999 09:09pm | #14

      *What are your fees for (1) regular and (2) premium inspections of a "typical" house for your area? (Here, typical would be a 1600 sf Cape with masonry chimney, gas heat and A/C, partially finished basement.) We were offered (1) at $300, (2) at $1000. We took one and negotiated $2k reduction in price based on inspector's report and estimates, which were generally fair. I'd like to see how a (2) would have come out different, but tathe time of purchase I was too overwhelmed with fees for survey and title and home warranty (not worth a penny, IMHO), etc. to even think about it.Now that I know some about building, I am still satisfied with the inspection given what little it cost. Maybe I'll look up the inspector and ask if anyone has tried -his- $1000 upgrade.

      1. Guest_ | Nov 05, 1999 11:21pm | #15

        *Gentlemen. There are, of course, good and bad house inspectors. Unfortunately my experiences with them while I was Code Enforcement Officer left a bad taste in my mouth. What impressed me most was their superficial knowledge. GeneL.

  3. Bob_Walker | Nov 06, 1999 05:21am | #16

    *
    Jim,

    << It seems to me your liability far exceeds your potential for gain - not that I know what you charge. >>

    Sometimes it feels that way, but so far I'm well ahead of my fellow inspectors that I know in my area on payouts.

    I certainly got my attention focused when I received a call in July asking for a copy of the electrical pages from a May inspection: "Sure; what happened to your original report?" "It was lost in the fire." !!! Fortunatly (i) no one was hurt, and (ii) my report stated "Have the electrical system checked _immediately_ by an electrician." Also, my field notes included the notation that I had told the client that I wouldn't spend one night in the house until it was completely checked by an electrician. I also told the then owner that there were major problems with the electrical system and that it should be checked. (Generally, I don't give information to the seller, but I do give warnings where I feel there's a significant health or safety issue.)

    Experiences like that tend to focus one's attention.

    In a prior life, I had primary legal responsibility for a bank's US$6 billion (yes, _b_illion) international portfolio, but I feel a stronger sense of responsibility to my clients scrapping together enough for a $50,000 house then I did to that bank. That was just corporate money

    When there are distractions during the inspection, (squalling kids, chatty owners, etc) I'll stop it until the situation improves.

    Bob

    1. Bob_Walker | Nov 06, 1999 05:29am | #17

      *Gene:<> Could you give some examples? Keep in mind, we're generalists (kind of like a family practioner.) I believe one important function is to spot issues to be referred to the specialists.Bob

  4. Guest_ | Nov 06, 1999 06:35am | #18

    *
    Bob, you may be the exception that proves the rule. It sounds like you take what you do very seriously (as you should).

    Why in heaven's name wasn't the electrical fixed? I hear stories all the time of people discovering walls wired with extension cords and such. Whatever.

    1. Guest_ | Nov 06, 1999 06:58am | #19

      *I was considering getting into the inspection buisness a couple of years ago. A local inspector was offering a free evening seminar on home inspection (of course a marketing gimic..not that I wouldn't do it).I went with my business partner at the time. We listened to home horror stories just like we all tell. We watched almost two hours of pictires the inspector had taken of home problems. The inspector misdiagnosed nearly 50% of the problems in the pictures. He stated that the only way to tell if a basement has ever flooded is to look for rust on the furnace and that horizontal cracks in a foundation are signs of trouble but vertical ones are nothing much to worry about. I think this guy got one of those mail order certificates.

      1. Guest_ | Nov 06, 1999 07:56am | #20

        *I don't think that we should throw the baby out with the water. Home inspecting is a new business and there seems to be a lot of people jumping on the band wagon that shouldn't be there. State certification is a must. The inspector is looking over what someone else had put up and has a short time to do it in. In a perfect world no one would need an inspector because every house would be flawless and unaffected by the ravages of time and weather. Rarely have I heard stories of bulders who got caught putting up garbage. Most people spend quite alot more on their houses than their cars but don't get anything after the initial building inspections the first time around. The time of home inspectors is here . IMHO Skip

        1. Guest_ | Nov 06, 1999 08:58am | #21

          *Keep in mind that home inspectors are not code compliance inspectors. The difference is important. As Bob states, he is a generalist, looking for red flags or syptoms to bigger problems. Home inspectors are not trained to be code compliance enforcers, and the mere mention of the word code by an HI is opening the door to liability.As far as missing something, say bad wiring in a wall, the inspectors pre-inspection agreement absolves him from any liability caused by such an incident.According to NAHI Standards of Practice, Sect. 1, Art. 1.5, "The standards apply to a visual inspection of the readily accessible areas of the included items,components,and systems to determine if,at the time of inspection, they are performing their intended function without regard to life expectency." Note the keywords being visual and readily accessible. You cannot inspect wirng or gas lines in a wall.You cannot see stress cracks behind cheap paneling.You inspect for signs of conditions. Freshly painted basement in a 50 year old house is a pretty good clue. Any good home inspector clearly states in his agreement what to expect and what not to expect from their inspection.The agreement is the key to limiting liability,and any reputable inspector has the proper insurance to cover anything he missed.Namely, errors and omissions insurance.So did the house burn down because the inspector missed bad wiring,or because the new homeowner tried to wire a range with 14 awg wire and figured the inspector would make a good scapecoat?

          1. Guest_ | Nov 06, 1999 10:49am | #22

            *Home inspectors sometimes get a bad rap, and sometimes they deserve it. You can also lay a lot of the blame on conditions of a house to the homebuyers themselves. Homebuyers, in most cases, are new to the concept of owning a home, and all that comes with ownership. It's kinda like a 16 year old buying his first car... they want the first one they see, and they don't even think about what kind of problems it has. Some even see an ugly, dilapidated heap and start imagining all the "fixin' up" they are going to do. They haven't got a clue what will be invloved, either cost wise or labor wise. They just get overly excited about the whole thing. Inspections, insurance, and paperwork are just a time consuming part of the whole process to them, and they want to get through it as quickly as possible, and get into that house. They have no idea what they are getting into, but once the payments start, and they realize how much the house is actually costing them, they want to blame someone if a serious problem developes (especially if it is going to cost THEM). In my area, I see so many home inspections that should not have even occurred. House is empty, electricity is turned off by power company, water and gas turned off by city, and inspector is trying to inspect the house. They can't check electrical, hvac, heating, water lines, gas lines, etc... because there is nothing short of a visual that they CAN do. But yet they still perform their inspection, and collect their fee as if they actually know any more about the house after the inspection than they did before.Now lets get on the BUILDING inspectors a bit. I built a garage for a client a few years back, and the city codes had just been updated a month before. We have 3 inspectors in my town, but only one was available for the inspection. The other two were at schools, learning about the new codes. The one left was waiting for the other two to return before he went to the school. My client wanted everything by the book, and since his good friend was the City Manager, he knew that the codes had changed. I told him that for a garge (26' x 26'), not much would have changed. He insisted on going to the inspector's office with me, and finding out about all the changes. Well, the inspector got out his book on span ratings, and he determined that for a 26' span (with or without a beam) that 2 x 12's , 12" o.c. was the new code. I laughed and told him he must be looking on the wrong page. He rechecked, and verified that the new code was 2 x 12's, 12" o.c. I looked at his book, then went and got the other 4 books and looked through them. The first book was the only book to mention spans, so we got stuck with this ridiculous ruling. (See photo below)Well, after we built the damn thing, 2 x 12 joists, 12" o.c. the other two inspectors made it back. One came out to do the framing and roof inspection, and liked to have had a cow. He asked me if I was crazy, and after explaing to him what we went through, and how the first inspector had MADE us do this, he laughed. Seems that the city had ordered the OTHER 5 books, but they had not arrived yet. When I finally got to see the newest books, there was the span codes for garages and outbuildings. Seems 2 x 8's, 24" o.c. with a beam is acceptable, or 2 x 8's, 16" o.c. without the beam. This was an example to me of how this system puts idiots in charge, and makes us hard working individuals bow down to them. Needless to say, my client was some kind of peeved at the inspector's office. He did get one stout garage though :)James DuHamel

          2. Guest_ | Nov 06, 1999 10:59am | #23

            *...Here's another picture of the inside (joists)We had to bolt a 3/4" plywood plate on both sides of the joist seam. James DuHamel

          3. Guest_ | Nov 06, 1999 04:16pm | #24

            *Bob,If I have offended you please accept my appologies. You seem to be trying to do your job well.The last paragraph of your origional post is what got to me. These are the same reasons I here from home inspectors around here as to why they change their subjective judgments. some of these judgments are not so subjective to me. Please note I hear the some arguments from contractors for not doing their jobs.I just finnished an inspection of an historic house that was totally screwed up by another contractor. They first had a home inspector go through and identify code violations and violations of specs. he charged 125$ per hour and found a few things. Took him about 5 hours. I was called to give a price on what he found and check for other problems. It took me about an hour. What he identified cost about 8 to 10 thousand. What I found added up to another $40000. He hadnt even tried to get to some of the tighter areas of the crawlspace. Went to give a cl100 for another house. The inspector noted the bath should be checked by a contractor. They were fine, but three feet away the hvac people had cut completely through two joists and not headered them off. They had also cut about half way through a rim joist when they installed the unit. I could go on for pages. Bob, You seem to be a person who wants to do a good job proforming a wanted service. The industry you are in is filled with hacks and mostly controlled by real estate agents (we know how ethical they are). So expect people to view your job with some supicion. Good luck in your buisness.Rick Tuk

          4. Guest_ | Nov 06, 1999 06:37pm | #25

            *It sounds like the first inspector thought the code prohibited him from using his head. Sometimes the rulemakers do call for insane results, but assume it's your fault first!This was a CEILING? Well, your client did kinda bring it on himself. Myabe he'll want to expand...

          5. Guest_ | Nov 11, 1999 11:00pm | #26

            *well guys i have been on both sides of the fence and am currently on the bad side at this time, but i have always tried to see it from both sides of the fence, and your right i work with a bunch of barney fifths, and i know you deal with them daily. I think that there are good and bad on both sides and usually its not in the quality builders its in the get one off the self builders that hire kids to build houses for them at 25,000 a yr. i make it my job to be clear headed instead of hauling out that one bullet in my shirt pocket.sath your talking about the home inspectors that come out when your inspecting the house that is for sale. these guys are working under there own rules i guess, i dont know were they get there guidlines from, every time the home owner calls and asks if its a city code? its usually not in the code book and i have yet to meet one or get one to call me back, because i am going to find out what code or guide they use. the one that i laugh at is, the electric water heater they require to be elevated? HMMM! better get the freezer and the battery charger elevated as well.

  5. C._Pentony | Nov 12, 1999 01:44am | #27

    *
    I enjoyed the opportunity to read the messages on this site.

    While out on a job site as a fire inspector, I often come in contact with builders who think that while being an inspector is a very necessary job, they themselves would not want a job where "everbody hates you".

    When I get back in my fire engine to respond on an emergency call, I'm glad that the vast majority of the time people are happy to see me and my crew. The County Building Inspector does not get that kind of positive reinforcement and I've often wondered how he puts up with his job.

    Keep up the good work!

  6. Guest_ | Nov 12, 1999 06:08am | #28

    *
    I have never had a problem with a building inspector (I'm talking about a code inspector).

    I'm in a rural area where people are more relaxed. Most people are not in favor of government involvement in anything. This may have alot to do with it.

    All the inspectors I've ever delt with are interested in good design, quaity work, and safe construction. They see the code book as one way to get that. If I can show them another way, they will always go along with me.

    I've met inspectors that probably wouldn't make great carpenters. But They all had the ability to use their heads and weren't bound by a list of rules.

  7. Guest_ | Jan 04, 2000 11:31pm | #29

    *
    I was wondering why the topic/occupation of building inspectors gets so heated? Are the majority of them hacks? How much do they make? My only experience was with a guy who apprenticed and worked as a carpenter in Norway. He was ethical and really knowledgeable. It seems like a good gig if you were to get injured, fed up, etc.. Let the answers and opinions rip.

    1. Guest_ | Nov 04, 1999 05:35am | #1

      *sath most of the ones that i've come across are hacks. That's not to say that there any good ones out there.Where i don't know..........

      1. Guest_ | Nov 04, 1999 05:45am | #2

        *As with any occupation, building has things that stand in your way, prevent you from proceeding, and critics that look over your work. One of those in building is a building inspector. I personally get along fine with most of them. But I have run accross a few who know to little about building and have very poor people skills. They know they have some authority and want to throw their weight around, make you jump through hoops. When I think they are throwing their weight around, I let them know it in a nice way. A few yrs back I called in for an inspection, (at 4 oclock by my watch), for the following day. I was informed that it was past 4 in a snappy tone that I didn't appreciate. I ask him who paid his salary. He said the county. I told him that I paid his salary as I am a tax payer and buyer of permits in the county and I didn't appreciate his tone and unwillingness to be helpful as a public servant. That put everything in the light for him and we have gotten along fine since.I'm glad we have inspectors and the saftey net they provide. I believe it puts all contractors on a more level playing field. But they are just people with a job to do, no "the bad guy". If they forget that, I won't hesitate to let them know.

        1. Guest_ | Nov 04, 1999 07:08am | #3

          *I was in the car on the way to get a new mouse (smashed the old one) when I realized that I had worded it "building inspector" when I meant "home inspector", that is one who inspects homes and properties for whichever side you happen to think they work for. I can't find a whole lot of redeeming qualities in the county/city guys and I guess I'll just eat the mistake and see what develops.

          1. Guest_ | Nov 04, 1999 07:24am | #4

            *So what the heck you doin' smashin' your mouse?

          2. Guest_ | Nov 04, 1999 07:30am | #5

            *I couldn't stand it anymore jb, the thing wouldn't work right, always going somewhere else. Had to put it out of it's misery, the guy at the office supply place said that they're designed to wear out so I guess it was just time to go. This computer stuff can bring about a whole rash of unknown symptoms in a person.

          3. Guest_ | Nov 04, 1999 07:32am | #6

            *...been there, done that.

          4. Bob_Walker | Nov 04, 1999 03:39pm | #7

            *I think there are a few reasons folks get "het up" about home inspectors.First there are _some_ jerk home inspectors out there.Second, and the leading reason, IMHO, is unrealistic expections of what a home inspector does and can do.I'm a home inspector, and I try to make it clear to my clients that I'm a generalist, that my job is to spot potential problems (focusing on major issues) and, when appropriate, to refer them to a specialist for further review. (When the conversation leads that way, I'll say something like "If I knew as much as a licensed electrician, plumber, HVAC mechanic, appliance sevicman, structural engineer, etc, I'd be driving a Mercedes SUV and have 2 or three boys carrying my ladder." I usually don't have to say, "and you'd be writing a lot bigger check" )I'd say expectations is the biggest source of problems. I have 2-3 hours to go through an entire house: that's what my local market expects and is willing to pay for. When folks expect too much, and fail to take these market realities into account, problems will arise. I also offer an "inspection plus" where I'll take more time and look for minor issues as well as major, the inspection plus costs more. I have _never_ had a client take me up on it.Another issue: many of the things we deal with require subjective judgements. Example: reversed polarity v. overfusing. They are both safety issues, but not at the same level of concern. I _think_ most folks would agree that reversed polarity isn't as big a risk as overfusing. My subjective judgement might not be the same as yours, however, as to the degree of safety concern on reversed polarity. (When my wife is done with the electric frying pan, she turns it off _and_ unplugs it. I just turn it off.)Also, home inspecting is a high liability area. Makes some home inspectors a bit gun shy. The more problems you call out, and the bigger you make them sound, the safer you are. Not a great way to serve your client, however, IMO.Lastly, remember that most home inspections take place in connection with the sale of a property. The buyer is usually pretty nervous at this point ("Did I make a stupid decision? Is this the right thing to do") and sellers can be pretty nervous too. Add a couple of RE agents salivating over a pending commision check and you begin to realize its a potentially volatile situation.Bob

          5. Guest_ | Nov 04, 1999 05:28pm | #8

            *Bob - I have always wondered about the liability you mention. Say you get hired and miss something pretty serious, like the plumbing doesn't drain right, or there turns out to be bugs you missed, or something like that. Are you responsible to the buyer for that? Is everything you take responsibility for spelled out clearly in some contract, or what? Thanks - jb

          6. Guest_ | Nov 04, 1999 09:13pm | #9

            *Wow. You guys are startin' to worry me or I'm startin' to worry what gonna' happen to me- what with all these "symptoms" Sather is talking about. Just worried I'm gonna' jump up from the computer one day and run raving mad out into the streets. Sam

          7. Guest_ | Nov 05, 1999 03:20pm | #10

            *I havent found a home inspector yet that does a competent job. Every one here points out that they are not responsibile for what they miss. There are to many potential conflicts of interests. Bob himself talks about nervous home owners and real estate agents. It sounds like some of the contractors who I have heard say that there wasnt enough money in the project to do it right (or even to code). If you do an inspection do an inspection. If you are even thinking about nervous homeowners or real estate agents you arent doing your job. Your job is supposed to be to repore anything wrong. How someone reacts to your report is their problem. Do what you were hired for.Rick Tuk

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