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wide board hardwood flooring

robdog | Posted in Construction Techniques on July 11, 2007 06:23am

I have a client who wants me to put down 8 inch wide 3/4″ tongue and groove flooring and I’m afraid that is too wide to stay put with only the tongues fastened….

any suggestions??

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  1. mack9110000 | Jul 11, 2007 02:29pm | #1

    What kind of timber are you going to install?

    1. robdog | Jul 12, 2007 05:38am | #2

      wormy maple tongue and groove

    2. wooderson | Jul 13, 2007 01:09am | #6

      What would you think about 5 inch wide white oak?

      1. robdog | Jul 13, 2007 02:35am | #7

        hey thanks y'all,   and on to my next question..what is the widest i can go before face nailing or screwing?   6"?

        1. FastEddie | Jul 13, 2007 04:07am | #8

          I installed 9" pine in my kitchen, stained it black.  Looks sharp, DW is real happy (that's a first).  I used two cut nails through the face at every joist."Put your creed in your deed."   Emerson

          "When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it."  T. Roosevelt

        2. Piffin | Jul 13, 2007 04:36am | #10

          what is the widest i can go before face nailing or screwing?"That again depends on the wood species, and the glue type.6" is max - for some woods 4" is max
           

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          1. ooogla | Jul 13, 2007 06:47am | #11

            Here are some thoughts:You may counter the effects of cupping by using wood that is quarter sawn as opposed to flat sawn. QS wood can be very expensive.You may counter the effects of different moisture content by sealing both sides of the wood. This can be labor intensive and the bottom side may not hold up depending on exposure.On a side note, I do carpentry but do not install floors. I have however had good experiences with Bona Traffic floor sealer.8" is pretty wide IMO. I'd make sure that the wood has 'set' and isn't going to warp. So if you use kiln dried, make sure that the moisture content is always going be be similar. I.e. I would not install it over concrete or an un conditioned crawl space e.g.Good luck

  2. frenchy | Jul 12, 2007 06:04am | #3

    robdog,

     yes it's too wide!

      several solutions, all of them expensive as heck!

     The first is face nailing with some sort of decorative nail.   The second  face screwed with a counter bore and plug arrangement.  the third is screwed from below if you have access to the subflooring.

       Glue down won't work on boards that wide because normal shrinking and swelling will quickly break the bond..

    1. achome | Jul 12, 2007 08:37pm | #4

      Glue definitely didn't work for us.  We have a similar situation, 4-8" hickory T&G.  Manufacturer (carlisle) said to lay down glue on the subfloor then nail in the tongues as usual.  Didn't work.  Every once in a while we heard big pops, when the glue let go.  Didn't help that the crawlspace underneath was not conditioned.

      Johnny

    2. Piffin | Jul 13, 2007 04:33am | #9

      "normal shrinking and swelling will quickly break the bond.."That depends on the prep, the glue, and the wood species 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      1. brad805 | Jul 13, 2007 09:57pm | #13

        I am not sure I agree.  Shrinkage stresses far exceed any glue bond.  Even a resorcinol adhesive used in a glulam will fail.  Differential moistures between substrates is the biggest enemy in this case.

        1. Piffin | Jul 14, 2007 02:37pm | #18

          Disagree all you want. I know what I have experience with.I dry and stabilize the wood first, then seal all sides with shellac to limit moisture movement in and out of the wood.
          Then I use the Bostic wood flooring glue which is formulated to handle a small amt of movement. 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

  3. YesMaam27577 | Jul 12, 2007 09:46pm | #5

    Boards that wide will move with changes in humidity -- by almost 1/8" per board. Its not only too wide for tongue-only fasteners, its probably just too wide altogether.

     

     

    Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.

    1. frenchy | Jul 13, 2007 07:03pm | #12

      YesMaam

          well don't look now but that's not too wide!

         it just calls for a differant fastening method.. I've seen wide board flooring up to 24 inches wide that's hundreds of years old..

        I will be putting down some 22 inch wide planks myself when the time comes.. I'll be using the fasten from underneath method because I think the plugs would distract from the look of those wide burls.. 

      1. YesMaam27577 | Jul 13, 2007 10:06pm | #15

        I've seen wide board flooring up to 24 inches wide that's hundreds of years old......

        plugs would distract from the look of those wide burls.. 

        Wood that is hundreds of years old was probably cut from old-growth timber, with growth rings so tight you almost can't see them. Expansion is considerably less with that kind of wood.

        And burls won't act like straight-grained wood. The twisted nature of burls tends to stabilize the piece.

        Although wide boards do truly look terriffic, I'll stand (at least loosely) by what I said.

         

         

         

         Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.

        1. frenchy | Jul 14, 2007 12:37am | #16

          YesMaam,

            Be sure to let Carlise flooring know that they've been doing it wrong all these decades then..

            As for wide boards,  if you consider the time it takes to create them, mother nature being so casual about growing big trees and all,  you'll find most really wide boards happen to be old growth.

            When I define Old growth I mean a tree that has spent it's entire life in a natural forest setting competing against other trees for sunlite and nutrients.  that's what produces the tight ring pattern.   Many of the timbers in my home are well in excess of 200 years old.. that means they were growing around the time this country had it's unpleasantness with Mother England..

            Since that was nearly a century before Minnesota became a state, I feel reasonably confident that use of the term old growth is proper..

            OF course out east most old growth hardwood gets harvested long before it becomes that sizeable.

          1. YesMaam27577 | Jul 14, 2007 03:28am | #17

            It is our understanding of the term "old growth" that differs.

            I believe it to mean trees that have stood as live adults for a couple of hundred years or more -- forcing the annular rings in the heartwood to get tighter and tighter.

            The vast majority of adult trees that are being harvested in the US these days are second and third generation growth. Even though they may be adult trees (50 - 75 years in the case of an oak having a 30" diameter for example), they really haven't had the time to truly mature the way that trees in pristine forests have.

            And because the rings are farther apart -- thicker rings if you will -- their expansion will be greater.

            It is for this same reason that there really is no longer any true "heart pine" being harvested in the east. The trees are allowed to grow only long enough to grow in height and circumference -- not in quality. Pines don't start growing heartwood until after they are mature.

            And I'll have to claim ignorance when it comes to Carlisle flooring. Are they only milling their stuff from true old growth (150 - 250 years since last being cut) forests? Or perhaps only using quartersawn stock? Or, like all of the other flooring companies that buy from the mill where I'm employed, are they buying what's generally available?

            As for the timbers in your home, I agree that they were cut from old growth stock -- 200 years ago there was nothing but old growth being cut. Not the case in the past 30 or so years.

             

             OF course out east most old growth hardwood gets harvested long before it becomes that sizeable.

            I guess I don't know what you're talking about here -- if its being harvested before it gets sizeable, then it is not old growth.

             

             Politics is the antithesis of problem solving.

          2. frenchy | Jul 15, 2007 02:44am | #19

            YesMaam,

               Well, you need to read a little more carefully.

              The trees in my home are old growth.. that is they were growing before America was a country. However  they were recently harvested.. I can take you to places here in Minnesota where old growth trees still dominate. 

               Also the reason the growth rings are compact is because they fought for sunlight and nutrients thus growth was slow and the rings are tight together.. they don't become tighter together with age! That's how you can tell what sort of year it was, by looking at the width of the growth rings.   Poor years will be extremely tight while good years are wider!

             The reason new growth has wide growth rings is because they have access to plenty of sunlight and nutrients. so it's always a good year..

             I believe that Carlise will use whatever the customer prefers as far as type and age of wood.. I'm certain they have their preffered sources, But I haven't spent a great deal of time with them.  I spoke for about an hour with one of their foremen confirming what I know about wide planking.. he was extremely gracious and I understand now why they have such a well deserved reputation..

              A 30 inch tree may or may not be old growth, depending on many factors such as species of wood, site the tree was growing on, if that site was the north side or south side of a hill for example, etc.  The main issue is the tree natural or is it in a managed forest.. Someplace where underbrush is cut to reduce competition for growth  and where all the trees have equal access to sunlight or is it someplace where natural selection comes into play.  

  4. brad805 | Jul 13, 2007 10:02pm | #14

    Sounds like a client that is fussy, might want to ask what their long term expectations are.  Myself, I wouldn't stray from what manufacturers offer and would ask for them to sign a consent to accept movement should you stray from proven products.

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