Window casing and flashing advice please
xtal_01
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
This is one of the last details I need to decided on with my new workshop. It is 3500 sq ft with 2×6 (16 ft high) walls. I am covering with pre finished Hardie plank nailed directly to the stud frame (house wrap between). No sheeting. This will save about $5K in material.
I have watched dozens of videos and read a bunch of articles … now more confused more than ever!
The first problem is what to make the casing out of. I used PVC on the house. I was not really happy with it. The biggest problem was the expansion / contraction … I have a large number of caulked joints opening up. I also don’t like the finish (cut ends are rough).
So, I figured since I am using Hardie (cement board) on the walls, why not for the trim. The first problem how to cut a groove for the nailing fin? Cement board does not cut well … especially on a 6 ft long groove. I guess I could space it out but with what?
I thought about wood. Unfortunately the window trim would then need painting (Hardie plank has a 15 year warranty on finish … 50 year on product).
Still it might be my best option. What kind of wood would you use for external casing? Any special primer (I will give it two finish coats) that may help weatherproof the casing?
OK … then my second question …. flashing. I watched your videos … simple to flash a window without a casing. If you have a casing, do you “double flash” … once on top of the window and then a second time on top of the casing (you will have a large step where the siding hits the casing)?
What about at the bottom of the window. Do you need some kid of flashing to let any water that get in around the window out before the siding? In other words, flashing under the bottom window casing?
This is one of the last details I need to complete in the design. Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!!!!!!!!
Replies
If you are going to use 2x6 framing, so you can go 24" OC, your hardie will flex like crazy. You didn't say if you were insulating, so if you aren't, the water that will get behind the siding has a easy place to dry out, as this method will guarantee you get a lot of water coming in so you should be fine there, but with that much unsupported Hardie, I think you are asking for trouble. If going without sheathing, you may be better going with 4x8 hardie panels, that mimic T-111 siding, but those may need 16" OC.
on the PVC trim, you are installing your trim incorrectly. for window trim, the trim pieces should be glued and screwed together (pocket screws), so there is never a caulk joint between PVC joints. I have routered, jointed, planed, and sawn and sanded PVC trim with excellent results. for outside corners, I use my domino and home-made PVC domino's along with glue to joint the two pieces, ripping one side down to 2 1/2" so each side will be exactly 3 1/2" wide, which is a much better look. This is why I hate Hardie trim, because you can't mill it.
If this is a shop you ever want to heat and cool, I would strongly suggest you rethink your approach, because once you add insulation you are going to make a wonderful water trapping system that will ensure rot over time.
I love hardie siding and hate the trim. We have been using Boral for all our exterior trim for a couple of years. It has all the benefits of Hardie with none of the issues. It is approved for ground and roof contact. It mills easily although all cutters and blades will be ruined for anything else. That being said, they will cut Boral forever. It comes in all common 3/4 and 4/4 sizes as well as 6/4 for that we use for windowsills and belly bands. We pocket screw the trim together on a bench and install assembled. Boral recommended PL adhesive but I use gorilla glue. Prices are similar to PVC.
I agree with the 1st comment on the flexing of the Hardie without sheathing. Beyond that, when the framing bows or twists, it’s going to pull the nails right through the siding. I would think you would need rigid foam at least. Does Hardie allow direct-to-stud installation in the manual?
How will you gusset the framing without sheathing? Are you doing let in braces?
Exactly! I am going to let in a 1 x 4 in each corner or use the commercial metal T
Hardie does allow direct to frame nailing. In fact, even if you sheet, they want you nailing to the frame.
I am hoping with some blocking, the frame won't twist or bow tooooooo much.
i will be putting "something" on the interior. After insulating, maybe 1/4 underlay (lauan) ... super light, easy to put up ... glue it for extra strength.
Boral ... it says it is made of fly ash! Interesting. I don't mind killing a few blades. I have 12 3' x 6' windows ... 4 4' x 4' ... two man doors and two garage doors (14' x 14'). 5 external corners and 1 internal corner.
I will have to look at this.
Do you really think the heads will pull through the Hardie?
Thanks ... Mike
I am going to use 2 x 6 on 16" centers. Hardie should be OK there.
I am going to insulate ... well eventually. From what I read, the key to waterproofing is the house wrap. If water is going to get behind it, it will rot the sheeting or framing or anything else.
One of the builders has suggest double layers of felt paper.
I was thinking tyvek ... though I did use a heavy duty house wrap on this place ... it was a woven product like a tarp.
I am going to need to be super careful with the wrap .... I think that will be the key.
Using Hardie should give air gaps behind the siding so it should dry out.
One builder wrote and told me to put the house wrap on then put 1/2" strips of waterproof plywood on the studs to give more of an air gap.
I actually was going with hardie or LP T1-11 panels but think the plank might be easier for me to put up, I think overlapping horizontal seams will have less chance of leaking than vertical ones plus I don't need the trim in the center where they join.
I did watch one video talking about gluing the PVC ... maybe I should look into it again.
Thanks .... Mike
Hmmm ... my post seems to have disappeared ...
2nd try ... I am going to use 16" centers.
I am going to insulate it at some point in the future.
I think if water gets behind the house wrap, anything will rot.
I am planning (hoping) to do an awesome job of sealing the wrap.
One builder even wrote saying they double wrap the building with felt paper.
Another suggested putting 1/2" strips of wood inline with the 2 x 6's on the house wrap .. this giving an even larger air gap.
I was going to use Hardie or PL T1-11 but was scared off by the long vertical seams plus I will then have mid wall trim detail.
Gluing the PVC (and screwing) an idea. I did see a video on this ... wondered who well it worked.
Thanks ... Mike
I would suggest you check with your local code authority as well. I know this type of construction would not be allowed in my city and state. You typically need to have these details approved by print examiner before they’ll issue a permit, but maybe you live in an area where that’s not an issue.
Not specific to your question, but if you aren't using sheathing, what are you using to provide shear resistance to the frame?
I just saw that you're using either a let-in T-strap or 1x4 bracing. I know that's in the code for shorter walls, but I'm wondering whether it works for 16 footers? Have you had an engineer review that? A lot of force could collect in that bracing, and I have some serious doubts about its safety.
I'm thinking the same questions as Andy,jldya and the others - what's holding the building together without sheathing and what happens when it fails, someone(probably you) get hurt and "they" find out it was built without any kind of review or approvals.
I'm concerned w/your comment about "watching" dozens of videos and "now more confused". Watching videos is not really a good substitute for hands on experience and working for someone who has done this work. Your $5k savings on sheathing (not sheeting-sorry) may end up costing you your entire building as it fails from any number of reasons.
From what I know, the idea on this site is to build better, not "cheaper" . The various building/fire codes in place are minimums to keep things safe and strong. The codes "test", so if you meet the code, you pass the test, but you could be getting a "D". Most people want to do better.
sorry about sounding "harsh" but it sounds like you're setting yourself up for failure
good luck
In general, broad scope let in bracing is allowed in the building code. We built a lot of homes this way in the early 90’s when everyone was in love w/ using rigid foam sheathing. The brace has to go from top plate to bottom plate and you need to get as close to a 45 angle as possible (I believe 60 was the furthest off allowed). Also, have to use proper nails and nailing schedule. 1x4 is allowed by code, but most in the 90’s opted for 1x6. There is very specific guidelines in the code, but vary from region to region. A call to your local code authority would tell you right away if it is allowed or not.
Thanks guys! ... got an e-mail into them now.
I will post when they get back to me.
Mike
Ok, I have to ask, if your building this unconditioned building with 16’ walls and trying to do it on the cheap, why aren’t you building a pole building? It would be way cheaper to build than a block crawl and conventional framing. Unless you are in an area where you can do a thickened slab? Even then, I still think it would be cheaper and easier.
I do plan on insulating and heating the building at some point in time.
I had a pole building in SC ... as you said cheap to put up and it was even insulated.
I already have the slab with a thickened edge in. A pole building would be hard to put up now.
Plus I found I ended up framing a building inside my pole barn anyway.
Thanks
Tone is hard to convey in writing so please know that I am trying to help you and I’m not being condescending. Just use sheathing. You are creating way more problems than you’re solving. I can’t see how you would be able to properly install and tape the house wrap? At $30/ square For OSB, (around here anyway) you could just opt for a cheaper siding. I realize money is always an issue but I’m sure you can find a better way to cut $1.50/sq ft out of your budget.
Agreed.
Sorry if I came off cross ... I am not upset in any way and I appreciate the advice.
I just realize how I don't know where I am going ... it's a bit frustrating.
I know you guys are right .... I should probably just sheet it.
I was just hoping to save the $5K ... even Dupont has a video on YouTube showing how to put Tyvek on an open frame building.
And except for making it easy to put up the Tyvek (and the support for which I am inletting), I am not sure why I need sheeting? Hardie wants you to nail into the studs even if you have sheeting ... and show it going up without sheeting.
This building started with putting wrap then PL SmartSide (4 x 8 T1-11 sheets) on the 2 x 6 studs. This is really where the idea of not using sheeting crept in. Then I got all the warnings of how bad the stuff is. I was told it leaks at the seams and it rots on the bottom edges (and there would be an edge at the bottom and in the middle).
Then I was recommended Hardie plank ... cement board seems to last forever ... lap siding has less chance of leaking ... probably easier for me to handle myself. I could even get it in colors for only a bit more and save on painting. I need to get the building up and painted before winter ... 6 months .... the interior can come later.
I've only got a couple weeks to figure this all out. Just getting worried.
Thanks .... Mike
Sheathing will help you in multiple ways. First is strength, and with 16 ft. tall walls, you're going to need shear resistance. Next, is it provides an air barrier (tape the seams) that will make the insulation you install actually work. And it will make for a better WRB and siding installation. Use OSB. As long as you keep it dry, it's fine. This advice is coming from someone who's been in construction since 1979, and who spent 20 years as an editor at FHB.
I will never fault someone for trying to think outside the box. Also, I think sometimes on this forum a lot of people are advising the most advanced and luxurious methods of construction. Is plywood a lot better to use? Of course it is, I would use it on mine. We do have to remember this forum covers a lot of different climate zones and some places do not need to worry about the concerns of high winds and seismic activity. The building code is in place to make sure we are building structures safely according to our region. I realize code is the minimum standard, but sometimes budget and project warrant a minimum standard. I’ve been doing this a long time. Some projects just lack the funds to be built in a luxury manner. There is definitely the argument if you lack the funds why do it, but it’s not black and white. With a let in brace the structure will not fall over. Will it be a show piece, definitely not, but maybe that’s ok. Personally for budget, I would sheath the whole thing with 7/16” OSB, find the cheapest house wrap to shed water and install a cheaper vinyl siding.
Agreed. There is nothing wrong with vinyl siding. That would be your $5k right there. I will probably catch heat for this, but I use tarpaper behind vinyl. Or fanfold and tape the seams.
Agreed, tar paper is perfectly fine for a shop. No need for high performance there.
Nothing wrong with tarpaper as a WRB. It's worked for more than a century. And vinyl gives you an integral rain screen. I'd still recommend taping the seams on the sheathing to provide a good air barrier.
my other observation particularly given costs consideration is it's usually better to spend more money once than less money twice. Having said that, as jlyda brought up "why do it", maybe you need to hold up on the project if funds are that tight.
you might want to contact your local suppliers and see if they have any "surplus" materials that would work for you. You get them at a discount and they get them out of their yard. Even the big box stores, they have "special order" returns or "open box" that are sometimes just taking space. Craigslist and other social media also have "for sale/free" areas, other builders/contractors have surplus materials and need to get it out of their yards/space.
good luck
I did go this way on the house. Standard stick construction .... sheeting ... Tyvek .... vinyl siding.
There is a brick ledge sticking out all around the house I trimmed with white aluminum.
At some point I want to brick 3 or 4 ft up and put on Hardie ... but for now, vinyl had to do.
Thanks again!!!!!
OK ... you guys talked me into it ... 7/16" OSB sheeting is $12 a sheet. Actually not as bad as I thought. I looked back on my two quotes ... one quoted Zip and the other a similar water proof sheeting.
I also can save a few $'s by buying cheaper windows. Lowe's has "exclusive to Lowe's" deals. Not exactly what I wanted but at almost half the price they will work great.
So ... two questions .... the first is where I started ... casing and flashing . .. but I will leave this question till tomorrow .. I will draw a picture of my options and post it.
Second ... how to end the OSB sheeting to get the maximum protection.
I have two drawings ... one shows the foundation. Right now I have the concrete pad in and am just finishing up the outside insulation and drain pipes.
I need to lift the wall off the pad. I am planning on using one row of cement blocks. I can get split face blocks ... they are waterproof so I don't need to sparge the outside. I am going to glue these blocks down ... ok a bit odd but the pad has cracks in it. They have even popped the patches (I grooved a few out and patched them .. the patches have popped so I know it is moving a small amount). If I use cememt, it will just crack at the joints ... been there, done that (found out that even the pad on a 50 year old garage still moves). Urethane glue has some give ... there is lots of rebar in the pad so movement is small ... no displacement.
The sides of the slab are not 100% straight ... sides are not bad (within 1/2") but front bows out 1 1/2". So, to get a square building, I am going to put down chalk lines and glue the blocks down straight and square.
I don't trust how straight pressure treat wood is so my idea is to blot down a 2 x 8 press treated sill to the top of the blocks. I will then chalk line them and and cut them so I get a straight sill. I will drill and epoxy threaded rod as anchor bolts.
Soooooo ... the wall goes on top of this. Now, how to end the OSB. I have a drawing showing three options.
1) Run the OSB down over both sills. I can use the spacer block needed to hold out the first row of Hardie Plank to hold the Tyvek down (leave gaps in it for water to drain). The problem here is the OSB has a edge that is open (though under the Hardie edge).
2) I can leave the bottom pressure treated sill a bit longer. The OSB can sit on it. Still run the Tyvek down to the bottom sill and use the spacer block to hold it. Now only the pressure treated sill is exposed.
3) cut the bottom pressure treat sill as a 2 x 6 (5 1/2") ... run the OSB only down to the wall sill (stop it before the press treat sill). Use a thicker spacer block and let it push the tyvek back under the OSB. Now you only have the pressure treated sill and press treated spacer block exposed.
So which is best? Any other suggestions for the sill? As I said, I will post a drawing with my window and casing questions tomorrow.
Thanks so much !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mike
I wouldn't glue the blocks either. How would you hold down the mudsill? I'd epoxy #4 rebar in every 6 ft. and at the corners, and lay the block conventionally. Grout the block cores that have rebar with gravel mix and set foundation bolts in the concrete. As to the front being out, split the difference. You can overhang the block 3/4 in. on each end.
We’ve come a long way from window flashing advice ?. I’m not a fan of gluing the blocks, that may lead to water intrusion later if not immediately. Also, not code approved. Have you considered using ICF blocks like Fox blocks? If you are not skilled at slinging mud it’s a very carpenter friendly form of construction for a foundation wall. Also, your insulation is taken care of using it. I noticed you are using foam below at footing might as well continue that up and coat all the foam with no ledge. The foam will act as a buffer and isolate any cracks that may occur on the wall.
I like the detail of leaving sill out slightly to act as start strip for siding. I’ve done it this way often on my work, but make sure you have house wrap go all the way down over sill as you have drawn to keep water draining.
I was using the threaded rod just as would rebar ... just thought I could use the same bar to do both ... tie the blocks into the pad and hold down the sill.
I don't like the idea of gluing the blocks but I am afraid of the seams cracking.
As I said, I had a failure a few years back. I raised a garage to replace a rotted sill (fit was fun ... did it myself for an in-law). Since the garage was at ground level, I raised it by putting down two rows of block. I even went as far as to put a row of expanded metal down in the mortar before the first row and then another between the rows. I then sparged the outside of the blocks. The pad had cracks in it but after 70 years (it was built in the 40's - 50's ... I thought for sure it had finished moving by now. No! After the first winter, I noticed cracks right at the joints ... right in line with the cracks in the pad. Nothing has moved but it is no longer water proof. Looking at the cracks in my pad, and seeing how my patches have popped, I am sure the same thing will happen here. I was hoping the glue will have some flex and not open up. I wrote Sika about this ... they said their urethane glue will work for this application. I am not looking for strength as the weight of the wall will be directly down on it. I will bolt the mud sill onto the blocks before the walls go up so that should hold them in place (so they don't get pushed or bumped while putting up the walls).
Am I wrong?
There are two types of masonry construction - The kind that is cracked, and the kind that hasn't cracked yet. Lay the block with mortar. If you get cracks, fill them with Sika's STPE masonry caulk. If it's getting the mortar to stick to the ends of the block while laying it, that's all in the technique. This video I shot of John Carroll a few years back is about brick, the mortar techniques are the same. https://www.finehomebuilding.com/2017/05/11/draft-video-268-ca-moving-opening-brick-wall
Good video. Actually, I have helped lay an entire house once. Took a building coarse back in the 80's. Laid the basement in block and the entire two story house in brick. I have laid a few jobs (small ones) myself since then.
No problems with the ones that have a good solid base. When laying on a cracked pad at still moves ... you get cracks.
Again ... bid mistake on my part. I wanted a 4 ft deep frost wall ... that is what my plans called for .. that is what I put on the house. The excavator ... concrete contractor ... and framer all said I was nuts. "Just pour a thickened edge reinforced pad". I figured with three of them telling me this, it must be the way to go.
Worst decision I made. And now I must live with what I have.
I guess there is no real difference ... as you said, if I lay it with mortar and it cracks, I just use the Sika later on the joints that open.
So ... do you see any difference in the three ways I could finish the end of the wall where the OSB stops?
I am trying to detail the windows and casing right now .... I will post it later ... trying to figure out the best way to flash it. Found lots of videos ... some say on top of the window ... some on top of the casing ... plus the bottom under the window is an issue (do I face nail the Hardie there or ???).
Thanks !
I'd go with option 1 for the OSB. Run the Hardie half an inch or so below that. Shouldn't be any kind of issue.
I just noticed that your original 1st post said you are building a 3,500 sq ft shop? Also, noticed a monolithic slab detail that you have drawn. Are you getting permits? Most jurisdictions only allow small garages the use of monolithic slab (like 20x20). Otherwise an engineer needs to draw the mono slab details for it to pass. With that being said, if you want mono slab for that big of a structure in cold country the thickened edge will probably need be 2’ deep minimum (engineer to determine) to be able to resist frost heave. I hate to say it, but I think you are in for a world of hurt building as you are planning. If considerations of frost heave have not been considered your slab/structure is going to move all over the place on a seasonal cycle. If your plans called for 4’ foundation walls for frost footing depth and that’s what your code authority approved the slab will not fly. If slab is already poured, your best option is to build a pole barn. You can cut existing slab out where needed for post and dig proper depth footing at posts locations. Only way around it is if you are building directly upon bedrock and footing isn’t an issue.
Couple of ways to help with the frost heave. First, keep the ground dry. Good gutters that lead away from the building and grading that does the same can make a big difference. Currently, any water that falls on the slab just drains off to its side. You could also dig down a foot or so around the building and about 5 feet out. Lay down a layer of 2 in. XPS all around, making sure it and the excavation slope away, and use the remaining foot for gravel and perimeter drains. Keeps the soil dry and keeps if from freezing.
I am in rural VT ... OK, all VT is rural ... there is no building inspectors in my area. I did get permits for the house and the shop. Literally the only thing I had to do was sketch where on the lot the building was going and how big it was. When I built the house there was only two inspections ... one for septic (in the middle of the installation before it was covered) and for the Certificate of Occupancy .. and that was literally just making sure I had water and a toilet.
I know the pad is wrong ... well I did right after it was in but by then it was too late ... again, I was talked into going this way by three "professionals".
I can't change it now. I am not going to tear up 3500 sq ft of concrete and start again ... not that I would have the money to do that.
I did check about trenching and putting in a frost wall around it. Again ... no way on earth I can afford it.
So I am stuck with what I have. As you can see, I actually added the foam around the outside and sloping away and installed the drains. It didn't even have that when the guys poured. They said I didn't need any of these things and that they had all built their shops the same way. I put the foam under the cement just to pass the VT energy code.
As noted, with the foam around the foundation covered with surface bond cement .... and the foam below sloping away (I even sealed between the two with spray foam) ... plus I will have 24" eaves ... and the drains around the perimeter, it should be fairly dry.
At this point, I just need to get a shop up. I will do the best I can with what I have. If it fall over, so be it.
Here are some pictures of what I have. You can see I dug out all around (well I have three sides done) by hand ... insulated .. put in drains (you can see the end of the connection pipe in one of my pictures ... lucky my land slopes away from the house and shop). This is like working for a living ... and is one one of the reasons I have not built the shop yet ... this is taking forever to do. I work out of the house and "need" this shop ... plus take care of my wife how was is paralyzed from the shoulders down as the result of a diving accident when she was 12 . We lived in the old RV for three years (-30 winter temps) just so we could save money while building the house. Took me 7 years but I am "almost" done.
Thanks .... Mike
Okay, I’m not familiar w/ VT maybe in your area it will fly. Your subs may be right. I know in my area with the soil conditions and extreme freeze thaw cycle it would not be a good option and allowed. If you have insulated slab properly and draining, you’ll probably be alright. With the monolithic slab your block is going to be more prone to crack as you realize. I think I would use ICF as I encouraged earlier or pour a foundation wall using a good amount of rebar to basically create a concrete beam around the perimeter. You have expressed that you have had block foundation crack on previous build in your area. If building in similar fashion on this build you are right to worry about block cracking. Not trying to discourage you, I was unaware of your code enforcement procedures and would hate to see you keep building if your local code authority would not approve.
You asked about window flashing, and mentioned cased windows. Here's a link to good Q&A Mike Guertin did. There's no one I trust more on this kind of issue than Mike. https://www.finehomebuilding.com/2015/07/11/watertight-window-flashing
Another point you mentioned was advice from local experts. As I mentioned, I've been in the trades, or in trade-related publishing, for 40 years. The fact is that many, if not most, tradespeople aren't as well educated in building as they should be. Many times they know the most expedient way to perform their trade, and that's confused with the best way. They often don't fully understand the ramifications of their actions, though. I have been guilty of that myself in the past. Going to work as an FHB editor in 1996 opened up a whole new view of what it meant to be an expert. I got to work with the best, and it was humbling. As you've found, the advice you get locally is hit or miss. What you're getting on this forum is pretty damn good. In the end though, you need to educate yourself and choose who to believe.
And btw, I'm jealous of the size of your shop.
There’s still a lot of good tradesmen out there, it really depends on where you live. I’ve been in the trades in 3 different US cities and have had my own business building residential and commercial buildings for years. I currently have a construction business in the U.K. as well that sends me all over the world. I work in the US about 6 months a year and all over the rest of the world the remaining 6 months. For my work I’ve been to Dubai, Portugal, Spain, Ireland, Scotland, England and Argentina. I’ve seen work that would blow your mind as far as talent and work that is what I consider very caveman primitive. My overall observation is that the public typically demands the quality of the work. Areas without code enforcement have a very substantial drop in quality. If people want better quality, demand code enforcement. And also what I encounter most often around the world is that people do not appreciate how technical construction has become and treat construction workers as lower class citizens. Workers rise to meet the expectations of the public around them. If public does not value quality work and treat tradesmen as morons, the work will always be of piss pour quality. When the public demands things like licensing of contractors w/ continuing education the quality improves vastly and the public has a new found respect for the workers that perform the work. I’ve seen both extreme sides of the spectrum. There’s definitely a clock in clock out mentality in areas where workers are not respected. In areas where tradesmen are respected they rise to the expectations and usually make a better living at it too. Again, still a lot of talent out there.
There are good tradesmen, but I've found it's directly related to the public's willingness/ability to pay for it. Good work isn't cheap, and cheap work isn't good. Where I came up was a very middle class area of NJ. The expectations weren't high, despite rigorous code enforcement. In my part of CT, code enforcement is relatively lax, but workmanship tends to be good because we're working for people with money.
That kind of goes hand in hand with what I’m saying. There are exceptions to everything. Overall, generally speaking, a public willing to enforce quality with inspections etc indicates that they value safe and quality work.
to back up Andy's post - there's a saying about the 2 guys on the job for 20 years, 1 with 20 yrs experience, the other with 1 yr experience 20 times.
I just dealt with an "experienced" roofer who picked up an architectural shingle, flipped it over to use as a starter strip and told me he does it all the time. It probable works for him, and "gets away" with it, but I had some 3 tab and had him use those.
having meet both Mike Guertin and Andy, they're among the best for how to get it done right and avoid problems later
and I'm jealous of your shop size as well - looks like you're starting with a great looking slab
and again, if you're going to make window changes anyway, check with the local big box about returned special orders. Some times you get "lucky".
good luck
Thank you. Where'd we meet? JLC Live?
Yes, I wasn't sure about mentioning where but JLC Live is a great resource for new techniques and products. I'm always amazed at how good the demonstration are and then I try to duplicate the work on my projects. Part of my problem with hiring other people is I know just enough to recognize that sometimes "that" isn't the way to do "it" (ie. architectural shingle as a starter strip)
Thanks so much guys ....
I just wish I had found this forum 7 years ago before I started working on the house ... would have saved me a lot of heartache.
I am very happy with my house but you can't imagine the number of things I have had to rework already.
And I do see the problems of not building using best practices ... maybe that is what scares me most.
I was just over to the neighbors house ... got foreclosed on .. new owner is having a lot of work done. It was built in the 80's .. same time as my moms house ... almost the same layout. My mom's house has needed a few roofs ... painted the inside a few times ... renovated one of the two bathrooms .. and that is about it. After looking at the house beside me, I am thinking it would be cheaper to start from scratch. Floors are all "soft" ... and I mean like a sponge ... not sure how much rot is under them .... roof leaded ... brick has cracks and needs repointing ... he is putting in all new windows ... needs a new furnace .... I am not sure if they will sand the walls or just cover over them with new drywall .. electrical is only 60 amp service (I put in a 400 amp) .. I can go on and no. So is it because there is no codes in our area or no inspector or both ... who knows.
Anyway .... the shop is big but there is a good reason. As I said, I am a machinist by trade and also build electrical control panel. Since I need to say home to watch my wife, I try to work out of the house. I plan on 1/3 of the shop being a metal shop .... 1/3 an open bay to work on cars, tractors, wood working, ... and 1/3 storage. I have a small RV that has never been in a garage ... the roof is almost shot. I don't want to put a new roof on it till I get the shop up so I can store it inside.
So, some may be asking why an RV when I am so tight on money. As I said earlier, my wife was paralyzed from the shoulders down in a diving accident when she was 12. She needs care in a hospital bed every 4 hours. Thus she had never traveled ... or been away from her parents house for more than 4 hours. When I met her I got the idea of getting a small RV and more or less converting it to care center. I went to have a lift put in it .. $25K .. ouch .. I only paid $18K for a 10 year old RV. So I cut my own door in the side and built my own lift. I built a lift from front to back and put in a hospital bed. Now we use it to travel (well while building the house, only a few times a year to visit my mom up in Canada ... she is now 81) .. and even for short day trips. So for us the RV is a need and I want to get it out of the elements.
Anyway ...I am 57 now ... I am an optimistic person ... If am hoping to need a shop till I am in my 90's ... I need a shop that will say up 40 years.
Time to do the wife's care ... I will watch the video on widow flashing.
Thanks guys ....
That's an amazing story! I hope you and your wife have many happy miles.
Good on you for taking care of your wife. We’ve had family members with mobility issues as well. I know all the hard work it takes. A labor of love as they say.
No worries about your slab. From the pic it does look like it was finished well. It may crack a little, but in truth all concrete cracks anyways. And yes this is a good place for you to get advice on how to build. A lot of experienced people here.
I have decided there is going to be nothing simple about this building.
One place I know I can save money is buy purchasing "standard" windows.
Let me give an example .... I can get a Reliabuld window from Lowe's ... cheap .. vinyl .. build by Atrium in NC (called them for a drawing when Lowe's said they could not get me one).
36 x 72 window ... $234.
The problem is you must take it the way it comes. Even asking for just a full screen rather than a half screen makes is "custom".
The same this for the frame. It comes with an integrated J molding. They have the same window with no J ... just over $400 !
I want lots of light in this shop. I am planning for 12 of these windows. That means $2800 vs $4800
This opens up another problem ... how to cover the J channel.
I drew up 4 possibilities. Starting from the left ...
1) 1 x ??? casing. Here you can see the gap it leaves ... it does not cover the channel
2) 5/4 x ??? casing. Just barely makes it to the end of J channel
3) cut 3/4" strips out of pressure treat plywood to pop the trim out. Now the 5/4 casing will make it to the edge of the window. The problem now is the siding does not hit the casing ... it hits the pressure treat plywood (purple line).
4) cut 3/4" strips ...pop out the 5/4 casing ... plus nail 3/4" strips on every stud (over the sheeting and house wrap) to pop out the siding 3/4"
Hmmmm ... I remember someone from this forum saying weeks ago saying #4 is what I needed to do even before I came up with the casing problem. They explained it is best to provide a drainage plane. This would keep the building dry ... free from mold and rot.
Thoughts ... ideas ?????
#4 is not terrible ... just more work. I estimated about $500 in material (3/4" pressure treat plywood). Still I am saving $2K on windows and maybe getting a better building.
Advice please
Hope everyone had a Happy Easter !!!!!!!
Mike
PS ... sorry, picture coming out 90 deg off so top to bottom. Also it is light .. let me know if you can't see it and I will try plotting it again ... I don't usually make jpg's from Autocad
*** added the drawing as a pdf
Maybe skip the casing and just use the j on the windows since you’re going with vinyl siding anyway? Or are we still doing Hardie? Boral comes in 6/4 so that would cover the J. Or you could rip 1 1/2 strips out of 3/4 and do a backband to cover the J and case around that. If you use Boral, it’s machines very easily so you could put a decorative edge on it? If this crushes the budget, you can rent a brake and trim them with aluminum trim coil. You can make the casings any thickness you want. Or hire someone to do it with a brake buddy to roll for a decorative edge. If you are using vinyl you can get what they call Lineal trim. It’s just a wide J. Mike Guertin has a great article detailing how to use it. I think it’s called vinyl siding done right or something close.
I have decided to got with the pre finished Hardie. I just can't see me (even with help) getting a shop up and then painting it up by winter.
I thought about aluminum. I could go this route.
I also thought about vinyl ... still worried that even if I screw together a frame, it will shrink a lot in the cold and pull open the joints where the siding hits.
I called three places in my area ... no one stocks Boral. I forgot to contact the factory and see if anyone in the area can get the stuff. Boral is a big company ... they seem to have PVC and Poly-ash. Are you talking about their TruExterior?
Mike
You can typically cut the j channel off of the window if it’s a cheaper window, but need to check how it’s built before you do so. Some manufacturers will allow you to do so and it won’t void the warranty. To take it off you score the j with a sharp knife and wiggle back and forth it snaps off in seconds. You do have to use a good set of snips or multi tool on the corners to cut the bend and separate sides from one another.
In the event that you are going to utilize 2x6 encircling, so you can go 24" OC, your hardie will flex like there's no tomorrow. You didn't state on the off chance that you were protecting, so on the off chance that you aren't, the water that will get behind the siding has a simple spot to dry out, as this strategy will promise you get a great deal of water coming in so you ought to be fine there, however with that much unsupported Hardie, I think you are requesting inconvenience. In the case of abandoning sheathing, you might be better going with 4x8 hardie boards, that emulate T-111 siding, yet those may require 16" OC.
on the PVC trim, you are introducing your trim erroneously. for window trim, the trim pieces ought to be stuck and screwed together (pocket screws), so there will never be a caulk joint between PVC joints. I have routered, jointed, planed, and sawn and sanded PVC trim with phenomenal outcomes. for outside corners, I utilize my domino and home-made PVC domino's alongside paste to joint the two pieces, tearing one side down to 2 1/2" so each side will be actually 3 1/2" wide, which is a vastly improved look. This is the reason I abhor Hardie trim, since you can't process it.
On the off chance that this is a shop you ever need to warmth and cool, I would firmly propose you reconsider your methodology, in light of the fact that once you add protection you are going to make an awesome water catching framework that will guarantee decay after some time. i want to see you something special for you: https://www.gamingzip.com/
and more info is here: https://www.gamingkite.com/
just did a google search on those links from gamingzip, look like they go to some "gaming" site/stuff, not sure what that has to do w/construction/homebuilding
any thoughts from any one? I'm always leery of "links" I don't recognize
Spammy spam spam.
if you're going with vinyl windows, you should check out some other suppliers than the big box stores. I use Harvey Industries for some vinyl replacements and the price was good. You might want to reach out to the local lumber yards and supply houses for pricing. Be sure they know you're the contractor/builder and not just "the home owner" and you should get a better price. Also, ask, "is that the best you can do? I'm buying "x windows/materials/etc?" I'm looking for the "most cost-effective" price" . Most yards give a better price to a contractor than a home owner since the yard expects to do more business with the contractor.
Engineering company I worked for years ago started their own supply company so they got the better price from the wholesaler. Their supply company then sold to the engineering company. The upcharge was charged to the customer and the company over all had a better profit from lower cost.
good luck
Thanks for the tips.
I will look into this. I know I tried two building supply shops when I built the house. I told them I was the contractor ... I even have my own business. They both still said they would not sell to me.
Maybe I can make a better deal with the box stores. As I said, I asked and was told by Lowes that you get these as they are fore $234 each or any chance (like no J) and they jump to over $400
Thanks!
Did you ask if you could start a COD account? If you have a business they should sell to you. Most will, but they do get concerned if you say you want to start an account as they often think you are referring to a credit account. With a COD account you pay for goods immediately, they have nothing to worry about. Others are right you can save quite a bit on windows buying with them vs the big box stores. Also, you can usually save a bit of $ if you do fixed glass windows instead of functioning windows. I don’t know how much ventilation you are requiring, but may not need to have all the windows function.
did they give you a reason for not selling to you? I've set up accounts with the various suppliers I deal with - usually doesn't cost anything and then they can point to the account to justify the "contractor" price as opposed to the retail price. Give them a credit card number and treat the card as an "interest free 30 day loan". Harvey & Brosco both have supply houses in Portland Maine, not exactly close but maybe worth a call.
Windows with one operable pane are usually known as "single hung", 2 panes: "double hung". If you're going for "light", use fixed pane windows. Could be more "cost-effective"
Another thought (and I hope I'm not being insulting), maybe look at setting up some kind of "non profit" as your wife is disabled. I'm way outside my limited areas of expertise but I know of a non profit day care that was able to purchase a MercedesBenz wagon as necessary to the day care.
good luck
I like your thinking! I wish the non-profit would work but unfortunately (or fortunately), I met one of the few people who wants to work.
She was valedictorian at her high school ... got a bunch of scholarships and graduated college. She then took a job with them in their admissions department ... been there almost 15 years now. She does a lot of their computer work .. she can't use her hands but types with splints faster than I do with my fingers.
They let her work from home most of the time but she goes in for meeting once or twice a week.
When we met, I started driving her to these meetings ... then the van died (13 years in VT salt) .. so I asked if she wanted to learn to drive? She took lessons and passed her test. We had to buy a new van anyway and the State had a program that if there is no public transportation where you live (and we are out in the country) and you have a job you need to get to, then they will install the hand controls free of charge.
There is no drivers seat in the van ... she just pulls in ... it locks ... and she is off with hand controls.
Anyway, Harvey was one of the ones that would not do it but I will go back and ask again. I have been scrimping and saving so I should have enough cash for the materials ... I am hoping I have enough for some of the labor (like setting the trusses and the roof) .... the rest I will do myself and maybe get some help for the neighbors since I help them out all the time.
She sounds like a great person!
Another "quick" thought since you're out in the country, reach out to your local fire department for some labor help (& who knows what else they could have available). They may have a junior FF program. Climbing ladders & learning how a building goes together is pretty much always advantageous. Other thought is to reach out the local VocTech program, either at the high school level or community college level. Hands on projects/real world/work experience
just a few thoughts
good luck
Good thought!
I "hired" two groups for the National Guard one year. They were trying to raise money for a children's Christmas project. Think it was like $100 for two guys for 4 hours.
I got two groups ... 4 guys ... had them move everything from a storage container I had into the house.
They worked hard.
Someone in the community complained (it only took one) saying it double dipping since they were being paid by the guard for the time and being paid by us ... which really was not the case since the money went toward this Christmas project.
Anyway, they only did it once because of that.
I will reach out and see who is around.
Thanks
I am doodling tonight ... thinking about the window casing again.
Hardie does seem very hard to use ... lots of little things that can go wrong plus it hard to work with.
As you guys pointed out, I can use PVC ... just didn't like how the job turned out last time. I am not saying no to it ... just looking at other materials.
Boral does not seem to be available in my area ... but I will still call the factory and make sure.
Aluminum wrapping ... maybe.
What about just wood with a good oil primer and two top coats?
I looked a Cedar since it is naturally rot resistant ... but wow, all kinds of warnings about painting it (red shop, white trim).
Lowe's offers "white wood" what ever the heck that is ... or "pine spruce fir" guess they don't know what it is till it comes in.
Thoughts ???
Thanks!
A lot of contractors in my region have been making the switch to Smartsiding from LP. It’s often 25% cheaper than Hardi. Warranty between the two are a bit different, but both good. Hardi has 30 yr 100% warranty, 15 yr on trim. Smart siding has 50 yr on siding and trim. 100% for the first 5 yrs and each progressing year a drop of 2.2% per year. I like using Smartsiding as it is cheaper, lighter, easier to cut/nail etc and comes in 16’ lengths vs 12’. It’s probably a little more environmentally friendly as well as it’s made from a renewable source.
Interesting .. I was going with LP originally ... then (here it goes again) got talked into Hardie.
Since I have not used either I am scratching my head over this one.
The only thing that scares me about the Hardie (other than cutting dust) is how much the factory warns me about cut edges. I talked with them a few times and each time they talk about calking the edge ... not exposing them even if painted.
LP scares me just because they keep changing and I have seen the old product fail. I know they had an old product that failed ... right now they have two products listed ... one more of a hard board and one more of a OSB. The factory said (talked to them also) they are discontinuing all the hard board and going to the one "that looks like OSB on the back" ... hmmmmm ... when you keep changing products, does not give me faith in it.
Just a bit confused.
How the heck did wood work for so many years? I am looking at a house across the street built 100 years ago ... it was a mill at one time so they cut their own wood ... still has the original siding!
Thanks ... Mike
To be fair, you are supposed to prime the cuts on all wood siding as well. Smartsiding has worked well in our environment here. We have extreme heat and humidity in summer and extreme cold and dry in the winter. I believe VT is a little more temperate in climate from what I remember, so may perform even better. It’s not like the composite woods of past, it holds up well. The siding is treated with Boron and has a wax applied as well. It’s very stable and allows for blind nailing as well. If you maintain a good coat of paint it will last a long time. If installed on a rain screen will outlast your life easily (not saying you are old). I do know if you are using it in extreme prolonged humid environments it’s not great. You will want to properly flash the trims where necessary as the side grain is more susceptible to rot than the face. Any horizontal surface that water can sit and puddle should be flashed.
Hmmmm ... maybe a bit more thinking on my part. I will need to prime cuts on any siding I use. And all will require attention to flashing.
Maybe it would not be so bad ... I know it is lighter and easier to work with.
I am arguing with myself a bout a rain screen. I will use Tyvek no matter what I go with. I keep watching videos of a gap behind the siding. Looks like most people just get sheets of PT plywood and cut strips.
It would add about $500 to the job but really not a lot more work ... I don't think.
No offense on the "old". I am 57 .... and starting to feel my age. Still I can dig a ditch or flip an engine myself ... just takes longer to recover than it use to.
My wife keeps reminding me that no matter what I put up it only needs to stay up for optimistically 40 years.
Thanks!
another reference for framing and sheathing
https://www.awesomeframers.com/blog/basic-load-paths
https://www.jlconline.com/how-to/framing/vertical-or-horizontal-sheathing_o
Great articles!
Once I was able to convince myself that an extra $2K in sheeting was well worth the investment, things kid of fall in place.
The blocking made sense to me for two reasons .. first, I wanted something sold to nail the edge of the sheeting to. Second, I am worried about these long 2 x 6's twisting and being out of center on 16" ... I hate finding a 2 x 6 that is 1/2" off ... then I am either trying to catch the edge by putting a nail or screw in sideways or scabbing a piece in beside it.
By doing this, I will have the required fire blocking also.
Also, since I am not going to the extra expense of zip siding, I an thinking about gluing or caulking in each sheet (to I would need the blocking to have something to back it). I know someone said I could tape the joints. On the house I built, I didn't do this to the outside sheeting but I did on the drywall. It gave great air sealing without using poly (at the time an energy consultant for the State to me it was the "best" way ... don't know if I believed him but I did it).
What do you guys thing? Is it worth gluing all the sheeting to the famework?
New question ... to stand up a framed wall first or to sheet it then stand it up ????
I just looked at two books I have on framing and watched several videos .... no one seems to agree!
A lot said to build the wall ... square it .. sheet it .. then stand it up.
Some said to sand it up first .. square it .. then put on the sheeting (this ensures it is square).
These are 16 ft walls so I don't know it that makes a difference. I am sure we will need to build them in sections (say 12 - 16 ft long) .. I can't see standing up 60 ft of wall in one shot.
What is the "best" way to do this ?????
Mike
part of this is what do you have for manpower? need more than a couple of guys to raise a sheathed wall. also need some "extra " hands to sheath it when it's up....
I'd probably do the building it on the deck, square it, sheath it (I'd also use some construction adhesive on the wall sheathing to help hold things together) and raise it up, using the top plate and sill plate to tie a workable size section that can be raised easily together, and probably overlap some of the sheathing
still going to need some extra hands
something else to add to the confusion
https://www.huberwood.com/rebates
you'd save on labor for house wrap and depending on what you use, insulation too.
might be worth contacting them directly and see if they'll help out, given your situation, they can use it for their next advertising campaign - they're "saving" material right now since JLC Live is on hold
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