I am confused over the “proper” installation of drip caps above windows. I am replacing my current windows with Vinyl casement windows with 4″ cedar trim. The siding around the window is Hardiplank. I have spoken to some builders that say drip cap is unneccesary if you use a high quality caulk around the window/trim. In addition I have had some say the cap should go over the window (below the trim), some say it should go over the top trim (not between the trim and the window) and some say both places! Since I put 2 windows in without the cap I am wondering what your opinions are? Also, short of tearing out the siding/trim is it possible to retrofit the existing windows? Thanks for all your help, Bill
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Replies
The top flange on many vinyl windows can act as a drip cap, so if the flange goes up behind your cedar trim, the aluminum drip cap should go on top of the trim and up under the siding above.
Imagine where the water will go and make sure it can't get behind anything.
Don't rely on caulk above the windows. Sooner or later it will crack and let water in.
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
Wrong answer...
Caulk it well and recheck cauld every year...recaulk when necessary.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Do you think caulking and checking every year is really better than a $2 piece of aluminum that will function for decades with no checking or maintenance?
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
al.. obviously blue is just trying to get a rise outta ya..
gotcha ,din't he?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'm not trying to get anyone fired up.
YOu do explain to all your customers that they have a duty to inspect and maintain all exterior caulkings...don't you?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Roar!
Ya know, ya gotta love it.
Rez...stay out of this...you instigator!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
heh heh
Like you really need the help!
A genuine bloomin' roar injected here.
True...am I that transparent?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
nope...
i only use cauking for the painter..it has nothing to do with keeping the elements out of our houses..flashings do that
so when it needs painting... it might need caulking also...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
HMMMMMMM....I'm thinking..."violation of every window manufacturing spec sheet I've ever read...."...I better not say that out loud though....
Hey Mike! That violates every window manufacturing spec sheet that I've ever read!
Oops...it slipped.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
c'mon , blue... WHERE do you caulk a window that someone can INSPECT it ?
of course we use caulk.. where the mfr. says to... but that isn't anything you inspect and replenish
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
All the spec sheets I've ever looked at show a 3/16 caulk gap between the siding and brick mold, or the brick and brick mould.
I don't know if you're really supposed to fill that gap.....are you?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
sounds like ( dare i mention it here ? ) a vinyl siding detail ..
a caulk gap is just that .. a space to put caulk in.. what's that got to do with preventing leaks ?
flashing prevents leaks.. not caulkMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Umm Mike...your being hard headed. The hardie, lp and all other "real" wood siding must be left 3/16 away from the window brick molds to facilitate expansion and contraction. And...what part of brick confuses you? The steel lintel, which is part of brick features and details here in Michigan is also required to be 3/16 away from the header brick mold. All these gaps are there because the manufacturers REQUIRE it. If you don't caulk them, bugs, water, air and dust will easily penetrate them. The suns rays will destroy your precious window wraps!
Just admit it...the caulk keeps the water out...on three sides. If you don't caulk the top, because you have a piece of metal there...your're still offering water a path behind the siding. If its LP siding...you also void the siding warranty!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
How do you shed the water that gets behind the siding?
Well...Golden..you've identified the million dollar question! With vinyl it just runs out the bottom unless you've found a way to seal it. On all other sidings it gets trapped and MOLD grows!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Unless you correctly detail your drainage plain behind the siding/masonry veneer.
I prefer to keep the water out....you can direct yours in..I keep it out.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Ever use a brick veneer? If so, do you put weeps at the bottom or seal it up real good to keep the water out?
Around here, the brick code requires vinyl and weep holes.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Why do you suppose that is?
Condensation build up. Water weeping through porous brick.
Whats your point?
Do you leave open gaps so that water can easily penetrate the most important first line of defense...just to prove that your exit strategys work?
I wouldn't. My philosophy is prevent the water from getting in.....then I don't have to worry about getting it out.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Who said anything about leaving open gaps? I did a quick re-read through the whole thread and it looks like you are the only one talking about it. (unless you count my question about weeps) I'm merely challenging your assertion in post number four that flashing is the wrong answer.
I think you might be surprised at how much water gets by your first line of defense, even while the first batch of caulking is still trying to set up. It gets particularly ugly after the caulking cracks and the third home owner down the line has no record of your emphatic diatribe with the original homeowner about checking and replacing the temporary caulking defense often.
Besides, how many home owners really know how to clear an old caulk joint, run a good clean bead of the proper type of replacement caulk and tool it correctly to thoroughly seal a joint after your "first line of defense" gives up the ghost? Most are going to use a poorly installed, non-tooled bead of clear silicone, over the old caulk, so they don't have to touch up the paint.
Am I right or am I right?
The flashing and drainage plain behind the siding is every bit, if not more, important than the hard shell you put over it to protect it. Siding sheds a lot of water but nowhere near all of it. If you get all caulky without getting all flashy to back it up, that water is eventually going to bust your house's chops and walk off laughing.
Basically, if you need caulking to keep the water out of the house your screwed. That is the flashing's job - permanently.
Golden, I would suggest using one of OSI s flexible door and window caulks. The rubberized caulk won't crack. It is important to get a wide enough bead however.
Mike mentioned that he treats the caulk as some type of filler that holds the paint. I find that to be 180 degrees from my thinking. Around here, all the painting is done, then the color keyed caulk is applied. The caulk adheres better to the painted areas sealing out the water.
Caulk is also applied at the raw open edge of the flashing. Keeping water out of this area is critical. The metal flashing's main purpose is to keep water off the horizontal exposed edge of the window brick mold. Without this metal protection, the sun and standing water would quickly take its toll on the painted flat surface. The secondary role of the flashing is to prevent it from seeping behind the brick mold, if it does penetrate.
If water is getting behind the siding, it surely will rot, be ruined and peel the outside paint.
I don't agree with your bit about the homeowner issue. Every bit of homeowner advice that deals with exterior maintenance alway warns homeowners to annually inspect and repair all caulking. In these parts, when a homeowner receives a warranty booklet from the new builder, it always specifically explains that the caulking is a normal maintenance issue that must be maintained or it might affect the warranty.
Insurance companies can also refuse to honor a claim if the home is not properly maintained...and one of the primary considerations is the exterior caulking.
I jumped in when I thought Mike wasn't properly informing his customers of their responsibility to properly maintain their caulking...because it's their first and primary means of keeping water on the outside of their siding and windows....I stand by that assertion.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
color keyed caulk , huh ?
hah, hah, hah... what a bunch of schlockMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, it is, in their "Manual".
Mike:
What are you doing?
Why are you arguing with Blue?
In Vancouver, it RAINS. Not as much as Seattle, they tell me, but what's 20" between friends?
Here, new windows have drip edge installed between the siding and the trim. Another piece is installed below it just above the window jamb.
New windows are often vinyl, so rotting the window is not the problem. We want to keep the water out as much as possible but, since water WILL get in, I want to get it out just as quickly.
Do it your way. Let Blue do it his.Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
Aaron...what the hell does that mean?
Blue puts flashing in...just like you. Are you f-in dense?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Passionate does not mean rude.
Blue, I WILL caulk on the siding as it abuts the window trim, for the painters. Never above or below. I don't know where you are and what kind of weather you have. Here, where it rains a lot, we try to get rid of the water as fast as possible.
I'm not trying to push string.Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
OSI makes several hundred colors....whats to laugh at.
Your the one using wrong caulk?
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Mike, I like that 5/4 block detail for the lights. Do you have any pics of a proper flashing detail for the top of the window?_____________________________HomeBase__________________________ LLC
i don't think i have any pics of the detail..
but all we do is put a strip of grace ice & water over the nailing flange..
then we put our head casing on..
then we put an aluminum window cap over the head casing ..
the siding sits on the window cap.. but doesn't touch it so you can caulk the gap
BTW.. the casing "rocks" on the nailing flang, so we shim it out on the outer edge with a narrow strip of graceMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
Maybe this should be a new thread, but here goes anyway...
You stategy for installing and flashing windows makes sense for new installs and replacements where the siding can be removed. In my case, I'm looking at replacing windows without removing the surrounding (aluminum) siding. So, after I've removed the old window, I'll have maybe 1.5" (the width of the removed brickmold casing) between the edge of the rough opening and the siding j-channel. I'd like to tape the flanges of the new windows as you've suggested, but how do I get the tape under the existing siding and past the existing siding nails?
Thanks, Dan MacDaniel
dan...down and dirty ?
or ..
finest kind ?
down and dirty, you can work with small strips of grace I&W and work it under the j-mold.. then rip your casing and install it in a bed of caulk..
finest kind... you gotta take off the siding around each window, and work it like it was a new installMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I'll jump in here real quick. Specifically, what is the BEST way to flash the windows. One piece bent up the wall, over the the top and slightly down the face of the window trim? What about the sides? Any suggestions?
Well, Mike does it just a hair different than I do in his description above and frankly, if you want advice from the most qualified I'd go with him.
That said, I put the metal flashing at the bottom of the head casing instead of the top, and run it about 1/2" long on each side. Then I slit the ends at the break and roll them down over the window about 1/2" on the sides.
From the bottom up, here's how I'm flashing the windows on the house I'm building right now:
I cut an X in the felt house wrap (yes I'm old fashioned that way)and fold the bottom and sides into the opening. I flash the sill corners with 4" squares of ice and water shield to cover the gap in the wrap from the X cut. I then cut the felt about 1/4" back above the window all the way across the top and just far enough beyond the corners to slip the top window flange under it. I run a good solid bead of PL window and door caulk all the way around the opening, under the wrap at the top and over the wrap at the sides and bottom. I set the window in the opening with the top going in first, slipping the top flange under the wrap and over the caulk bead at the top. Plumb/ square and screw it in.
Next I cover the nail fins with window flashing tape starting at the bottom, then the sides and finally over the top, extending the top piece of tape far enough out to seal up the slits at the top corner. As an added precaution I staple the outer edge of the tape all the way around the window to keep it from lifting where I have a masonry veneer with an air gap. Finally, I put a metal drip cap over the top of the window and fold the ears down like I described above. Then I slip a piece of felt, about 8 inches wider than the window, under the next course of felt above the window and trim it to cover the vertical leg of the metal flashing before I staple it down. I also used low expansion foam or caulk to seal the gaps between the window frame and R.O. on the inside.
There are a lot of ways to do it but what matters is that your house is sealed up water tight before the siding goes up and that you leave a means of escape for any water that gets behind the siding to run down and get out with no chance of getting between the wrap and wall sheathing in the process.
Everything on top of that is just to look good and protect the drainage plain from damage. Keeping as much water out as possible, with caulking for example, is one way to protect the critical drainage plain behind the exterior veneer.
Blue, when we install flange windows we tape over all the flanges with Bituthene tape 6" wide. At the bottom of the window the tape laps over the shingles or clapboards. Then we apply the window wrap, and a flashing on top. No caulk required to keep water out, there is a drainage plane without it.
Most our trim is natural, so a bit of clear silicone to fill the gap, but not as a primary weatherproofing layer.
Mike, do you leave that 3/16" gap at the window brick molds?
Clear silicone will keep water out.
I'm kinda surprised to find out that everyone doesn't caulk around the windows! Allowing water to get behind siding at any point just seems to be a crazy idea to me. The first line of defense is the siding and it's waterproof seal...usually the latex paint...or stain. The caulk seals all cracks/gaps.
As a homeowner, I wouldn't pay anyone that tried to put siding up for me without caulking and sealing it.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
blue.. turn up yur hearing aid..
almost everyone that posted to this, uses caulk.. but it ain't to keep the water out..
the flashings keep the water out
the caulk is just to have a paintable surface...
View Image
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/16/2004 9:14 pm ET by Mike Smith
caulk is just to have a paintable surface
YOU'RE KIDDING...RIGHT?!
BLUEWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
blue.. why don't you look it up..
FLASHING is what keeps the water out... c'mon , son.. i know you can get this .. just concentrateMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, I understand flashings. I've been installing them for 30 years. I do think that the caulk should be installed IN CONJUNCTION with the flashing. I wouldn't leave an open gap up there becasue the flashing is in. That's just irresponsible.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
... call me irresponsible...
..call me unreliable...
.. guesss it's undeniably truuueeeee....
... i'm irresbonsibly mad ... about you
not as good as frankie... but at least i triedMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike, what is that light fixture box mounted on in your ltbase.jpg picture?
pierre.. we make those blocks up out of the 5/4 trim.. in this case the trim wsa GP PrimeTrim.. 5/4 x6..
there is a rabbet on the bottom that goes over the Certainteed fiber cement plank
View Image
the sill in the previous picture is a made of Trex .. it also has a rabbet inn the bottom to receive the sidingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I question the reality that a piece of small metal actually keeps the water out. And if that water gets in...it's trapped.
The reality is that the metal should be installed, in CONJUNCTION with caulking. The caulking should be inspected and maintained every year.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Not only do you not know anything about framing, you don't know a darn thing about window flashing either.
;)
Mike, Two can play at that game, LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I know how to flash windows....I just feel that caulking is far more efficient at keeping water out.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
If it were me I would use the six inch tyvek tape on the sill set the window in, nail it, tape sides, and top. At this point window should be water tight. I would apply my casing, and a drip cap above this.I never liked the idea of water sitting behind the wood, I like to shed it quickly.The tyvek site has good instructions on applying their tape for the water tight seal.
I try to rely on gravity,rather than caulking to shed water,pretty reliable.Remember the bottom of the window shouldn't be caulked shut. Water needs to escape in case it does get in.This is the way I do it, and I'm sure there are other ways to approach it.
Greg in Connecticut
What is going to happen to the moisture that collects behind the vapor barrier and the moisture that collects on the back of the hardy plank? It will run downward, as water usually does, unless absorbed by your sheathing. It will then become trapped above your window by a tight bead of caulk and leave you scratching your head as to where all the moisture problems are coming from.
Think like water! Providing a way for the water to get out from behind those traps is crucial. Learn the correct way to spline a window and the caulk will only be decorative. Be careful. Lawsuits are flying where hardiplank has rotted out houses.