Replies

1. 
   JohnSprung | May 17, 2003 01:52am | #1

   What kind of windows? Are they sticking, or working OK?

   -- J.S.

2. 
   CDN_Builder | May 17, 2003 02:00am | #2

   Are there problems with the windows?

   I believe somewhere  finehomebuilding has published  an article that illustrates a builder whom erects walls with windows in them, possibly in the book "advanced framing techniques".

   I've never done it but it might be a place to start.

1. 
   MB | May 18, 2003 10:05pm | #14

   Thank you very much CDN_ Builder, I will try and fine that artical.

1. 
   CDN_Builder | May 19, 2003 01:20am | #19

   Was thinking about this some more, did a search in the online archive of articles, the may 1999 issue has an article titled "Raising a Gable Wall"; I just happen to have the issue; in the text the author makes mention of how they install the shingles and windows for the entire wall in smaller gables b4 raising.

   This article is in addition to the article I mentioned b4, that one, I am quite sure had pictures of the process, I'm convinced i've seen it in one of their hardcover published books.

   Thats about the best I can do for you, good luck. Maybe someone else can jump in with the title.

   Cheers.

1. 
   Edgar76b | May 19, 2003 01:35am | #20

   I would think it would be very difficult to maintain square maybe not. if you measure corner to corner diagonal.But it sure would save time.

   I was at a buddies new site last thursday for a picinic and blugrass jam. pre housewarming. No roof yet. A barn imported from central Pa 3 floors with 2x6 stud walls in between the posts and beams. It will look nice. But the framer did all of his window openings with 2 jacks on either side holding up the header. All four on the window sill. It looked like crap. pretty big openings too. Still trying to figure out if he was trying to save money , or he didn't know any better. I didn't say anything.Where there's A wheel there's a way, got any wheels?

1. 
   ScottMatson | May 20, 2003 04:19am | #21

   yep, have seen walls raised with windows installed, not a big deal as previously mentioned. One thing I saw last year for the first time though was a house with not only the windows on, but the staircase put in before the finished roof.

   That stuff freaks me out.

3. 
   r_ignacki | May 17, 2003 02:04am | #3

   somebody jumped the usualy sequence, but's that's no reason to take them out. May be this architect dude thinks they got exposed to wheather.  There's no damage, right?
1. 
   MB | May 18, 2003 10:23pm | #15

   Thanks to all of you for the information. It will be a good starting point and I will keep you informed of the out come; also like the idea of putting the burden on the architect to find a written standard that indicates the windows were put in out of sequence and must be taken out.  I will try and find the photos from blue eyed devil and the advanced framing techniques article. you have all given me the confidence to fight for what I believe is right. 

1. 
   Mongo | May 18, 2003 10:32pm | #16

   As long as the windows were installed in the proper sequence...sheathing/wrap/flashing/siding/whatever, etc...and the platform walls were properly level/squared so the windows operate properly after the walls were raised...and the windows did not suffer due to extreme weather exposure prior to the roof going on...tell the architect to get a life...as well as written proof with source documentation regarding his "standards of care."

   Sheesh.

4. 
   stossel1 | May 17, 2003 02:08am | #4

   As a framing sub maybe i can be of some help. Normally I wait until the roof is on and sheathed before i install windows. Not because of any structual considerations but because of possible damage to the windows from someone dropping something. Also weather can be a factor, if it rains or snows then your jambs get wet. I can't imagine why your architect would say anything. Number one it is not his job , maybe he was trying to impress the homeowner with his vast knowledge of the consrtuction process. If your engineer made a comment that is a different story. I have seen guys lift walls with siding and windows installed so it is not unusual by any means. I don't think I would worry too much about it.

1. 
   DaveRicheson | May 17, 2003 04:19am | #5

   A few years ago we had a guy that called himself "Blue Eyed Devil" that posted here regularly. He framed , sheated and sided walls before raising them. I seem to remember him saying that he installed windows occassionaly before a lift. He was a real speed framer, and posted some date/time stamped photos of one of his jobs with windows and siding installed before the walls were stood up. I don't believe he ever mentioned any problems with that sequence.

1. 
   joeh | May 17, 2003 05:57pm | #10

   Boogerin' with Blue.........good thread. Lost in the move to Prospero, along with Blue.

   Joe H

2. 
   dieselpig | May 18, 2003 04:30am | #11

   I wonder whatever happened to Blue Eyed Devil.....a Makita guy through and through if I remember correctly.   Long live the Blue Stream!

1. 
   Shoeman | May 18, 2003 02:31pm | #12

   Blue got wrapped up in selling PrePaid Legal services.  Got into something else after that, can't remember just what, but he was  "off to make his million"  without having to use his back.

   Not sure of Blue's tool preferences, but, I think the blue stream, actually ran through someone elses back yard.  Adarondack Jack rings a bell. 

   Not trying to say you're wrong - just sharing my recollections.

   Shoe

5. 
   BossHog | May 17, 2003 04:31am | #6

   Sounds like a crock to me. But that won't carry much weight - Nor will anything anyone else says here.

   My thought would be throw the ball back in their court. Ask them where they got their "standard of care". Ask them to come up with something in writing that says the windows shouldn't go in first. Or to show some damage or problem that's occurred because of it.

   If they can't do that, I'd say they have no beef with you.

   Analogies in writing are like feathers on a snake

1. 
   Piffin | May 17, 2003 05:07am | #8

   "they have no beef with you. "

   A vegetarian architect for you...

   LOL

   Good strategic thinking - puts the burden of proof where it belongs - on the bullsheeter.

   Excellence is its own reward!

6. 
   Piffin | May 17, 2003 04:35am | #7

   I've raised a couple of walls with windows in and trim on. I don't like to do it that way because I worry about rain and breakage but there is absolutely no reason for this archy to be concerned. Unless they are already water damaged by not having the roof on and they all work, He is just making noise.

   It would be entertaining to hear his rendition though

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

7. 
   FastEddie1 | May 17, 2003 06:09am | #9

   If it has a tile roof, would you want to wait until the walls are loaded to be sure there's no stress on the window frames?

   Do it right, or do it twice.

1. 
   Piffin | May 18, 2003 03:55pm | #13

   doesn't matter if it has a tile roof, or a concrete roof, or a heavy snow load on an asphalt roof, if the wall was framed right, the load on the headers goes to the jacks and not onto the window frame. The window is hung on flanges and/or on the sill. .

   Excellence is its own reward!

8. 
   joeh | May 18, 2003 11:09pm | #17

   MB, other than the owners architect doesn't approve, what is the problem?

   You are asking for opinions, but why?

   Is there a problem?

   Joe H

9. 
   MrsReese | May 19, 2003 12:01am | #18

   I understand your puzzlement over being asked to comment on this issue. What's the big deal?

   I remember seeing a photo in FH of people raising a wall with windows and siding already installed, or maybe I'm wrong. I can't find it right off the bat. But there's a photo on page 8 of the Taunton Press Framing Floors, Wall, and Ceilings book of a window in a wall with no roof framing yet, so I'm not completely delusional. I knew I'd seen that before.

   I would find it acceptable to install the windows at any time in the process that was most convenient. For example, if it's a 3rd story gable end wall and it would pose a safety hazard to carry that window up a ladder, and you have a crane or enough people to lift a really heavy wall, you should put the window in lying on the floor deck. And of course for a gable end, deflection of the wall from roof load would be a moot point.

   And I understand from your remarks that's not even what they did. They put the windows in after the wall was up, but before the roof was on. So they could make them exactly plumb and level no problem. And if the roof load were to affect the window opening, then THAT is a major design problem, not the order of installation. If they did the old fashioned kind of overbuilt headers and jack studs and a space all around for expansion and contraction, it's completely a non-issue. You get that book at the store and look at page 8. It's an example of wood-saving framing. If that's acceptable standard of care, then the old way is spoiling them rotten.

   I feel for you. The whole question seems crazy. Any reason I can think of for concern can be empirically assessed on the spot! If they work, and they're level, and they aren't damaged????

   The trick is how to deliver your opinion without insulting the architect or the owner for asking in the first place. Good luck with that! Let us know how it turns out.

   B

10. 
    Schelling | May 20, 2003 02:18pm | #22

    I agree with all the comments by others about the windows. If there is no damage to the windows, what difference does it make.

    I would be more concerned with your relationship with the architect and the homeowner. If you are having this type of disagreement at this stage of the job, it is likely to get worse as things progress. It is important for you to gain the trust of the homeowner by listening to any comments, explaining your actions and making reasonable accomodations for the homeowner's concerns. The architect may be jerking your chain or may just be showing the homeowner that he is paying attention. Try to keep both these people on your side which you can do by handling them with professionalism. If the architect is in the wrong, convince the homeowner with calmly presented facts. How you respond to this challenge will affect the rest of the job. Don't blow it.

1. 
   Piffin | May 20, 2003 03:12pm | #23

   OK, now the discussion has moved from windows OK? to relationships.

   This archy is on a power trip, IMO - but you are right that even though he has to be boxed in, it has to be done tactfully, allowing him to save face. Em-bare-#### him now and he will find a way to amke life miserable later on, especially if he has sign-off priveledges on that final payment..

   Excellence is its own reward!