The wife is pushing for a window in the shower…
Is there a GOOD way to do this?
And what kind of window will hold up?
Seams like vinyl would be the only thing that would work, and
I’m not going there.
PS
I guess saying I’m using Kerdi might be helpful.
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Replies
I had the same issue and eventually just gave in and put in the vinyl windows, it works great and fortunately the view is nice enough you focus on that and not the window!!
So how do you water proof both sides?
An all-fiberglass window will work well.
Look at the Integrity line by Marvin, and select the specs for the all-Ultrex models. They are available in single- and double-hung, with other models as well.
Here's a pic of an all-Ultrex double-hung, showing how the sashes pivot for cleaning.
View Image
Marvin Integrity windows are made as wood-on-the-inside models, and as fiberglass-in-and-out ("all Ultrex").
Tile or Corian the returns, slope the sill, and use a good silicone caulk between the window frame and the returns, and you've done well.
A good article in the latest FH shows how shower niches are tiled, and the part about the sloped buildup for the sill is relevant to your window build.
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Edited 6/7/2008 9:12 am ET by Gene_Davis
Probably cannot get aluminum windows anymore? Have that in one shower.
The other shower is the only vinyl window anywhere in the house, did make that concession when we remodeled the main bath/shower a couple of years ago and put a 4 ft by 6 ft window on one side - clear, overlooks woods, does have a set of curtains also.
dit PS: Formica covered windowsill, silicone on edges, oak sides with triple polyurethane, no problems in 38 years on the AL window, don't expect any on the main bath either.
Edited 6/7/2008 9:03 am ET by junkhound
Like the idea of using a marvin style ultrex window. they weren't available in DH when I did mine.I used the Noble membrane system for the waterproofing the tile floor, see some old FHB articles. I extended the membrane right up to the window opening folded it over, then waterproofed the outside using the classic Vycor methods, so all of the framing was protecting by either Vycor or the Noble membrane.Then once the window was installed I took a small piece of vycor on the inside, folded it up the vinyl window about 3/8" and the down on the sill. The vycor stuck really well to the window frame. Then on top of that I put durock cement board at(sloped on the sill) I trusted that the self sealing properties of the vycor would work around the cement board screws.
The sills are a piece of corian that matches my sinks and the threshold. Silicone caulk between that and the window completed the deal.
The only problem I have had is the caulking has yellowed for some reason. Not sure what to do about it.I have attached some pics
Why does your wife want a window in the shower?
I have about four bathrooms with windows in the shower. I started trimming them out with Hardibacker trim boards. I put a little pitch on the sill and caulk to the window.
Why does your wife want a window in the shower? Darn good question! Maybe I have bigger problems then a leaky, pealing window. Thanks all for the help. I guess I would run the Kerdi up under the inside edge of the window.
Then it's just keeping it caulked?
Seems like know matter what you have a seam where the grace would meet the Kerdi. I shure would feel better if that was water proof.
First of all, all windows leak so just use a window that wont rot. IE 100% vinyl in lower end and 100% pvc in upper end(or fiberglass)
I recon active window will have balances decay over time but you get what you get. I'd make sure you use a window that you can get replacement mechanical systems for. (balances, springs, etc)
I would then make sure that I built a full pan on top of the rough sill and sloped the sill (2x) to the exterior to drain. People use Vicor/plastic pans, etc for doors and windows now, just lap, and make sure everything can drain out to on top of the siding.
Then I would run vinyl liner up the exterior wall and make sure the sill flashing laps there as well. (I dont like a vinyl liner on the ext wall as you already have tile which is impermiable so you are putting a double vapor barrier on it but I am not sure i'd do it differently)
Obviously the tile or whatever you put on the inside needs to be pitched. (I would stick with a solid sill but lots of people use tile to match the shower. Just grout and silicone real well)
thats how I'd do it.
"IE 100% vinyl in lower end and 100% pvc in upper end" ??????????http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinyl_polymer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
In a more price sensitive renovation I would use a vinyl window. Single or double hung, insulated glass.
In a less price sensitive or more expensive upgrade, I would use a cellular pvc window.
MI has a window that used to be called Pro cell I think. Now they are Cellular HD for new construction and 1950 Admire in the replacement window for the eastern half of the country, according to their website.
I put in the 1st generation of the window 9 years ago and the window has been without any major issues since. (put in about 45 of fthem) They require adjustment now and again as the expansion and contraction I think plays with them a bit, but they have served well.
The point is that vinyl is PVC is vinyl for all practical purposes. There are different forumalation for different purposses. But for PVC windows vinyl is PVC is vinyl.Now that is not to say that are companies have have higher quality materials and designs than other companies..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Ahh. I get your point. When I think vinyl window, I think extruded vinyl $120-$130 each for single hung low E (maybe $20 more for double hung) and designed for the lower end price points.
When I think PVC, I think AZEK, foam core pvc windows that look like painted wood but will not rot. Cost 2-3x more than vinyl
Does she have to see out of it, or is it just for light? For view, a porthole like used on ships would be good.
I had a window in a shower in a house I used to live in. I left the storm window on outside, but inside I put in glass blocks that were flush with the new tile I installed--looked real nice and was waterproof inside and out. I used a pressure treated wood frame and coated it with bituminous roof sealant so it would work with the glass block and mortar. Seemed to work well. Hardest part is getting the upper row of block mortared in (especially the very last block!). Now they have pre-assembled blocks in frames and you can even glue the blocks up with silicone. Nice thing about glass blocks is they are more insulating than most windows, and no drafts.
Edit: Also no worries about slipping and putting some body part through the glass with glass block as opposed to a window!
Edited 6/7/2008 11:48 am ET by Danno
We use prefabricated glass block units (actually acrylic) that come in vinyl frames with mildew resistant silicone between the blocks. The interior generally gets a solid stone or corian sill and tile surrounds on sides and top. I've also clad wood windows with copper but that is way too much work.
m
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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
It's mainly for light, but there is a very nice view of our pond so... I think being able to open it would be nice, in the summer of course.
Actually glass blocks was part of the negotiations. I hadn't considered
potential body part incidents:) If I have to go through all this trouble
I'd like to keep that on the back burner for a minute, as it would
be nice to see out.
I had ben thinking I would pitch the sill both in and out from the window. But sending all the water out makes more sense to me. Thanks. You lost me on the vinyl liner up the wall. If I'm using Kerdi there's
no need for vinyl is there? Maybe:
Sill pitched out (rather steeply)
Vycor as usual
Kerdi up wall down sill over Vycor
(I don't suppose it will bond tho)
One piece blue stone pitched in with 1" lip
Caulk around window Gulp, I hope.
Edited 6/7/2008 12:37 pm ET by Henley
Mainly for light? Why not do one of those light tubes that goes through the roof and then diffuses once it passes through the ceiling?
I'd love to but...
At some point I'm going to post some roof questions about this place.
Until then trust me I don't want any more holes in this baby then I
have too.
It's a contemporary design, that gathers all the water to one spot
and then sends it down one gutter. Eventually it reaches the pond,
for the GSHP.
Well this is central New York and water tends to freeze!
So any how one thing at a time, and any sort of skylight is out. I'm thinking the bottom of the window is going to be around 5' up
so do I really need to be all that concerned with falling through it?
If you're gonna chage the roof soon anyways tell the wife to wait and install it then.
No I mean The design holds water in the winter.
So for all intents and purposes it's like a flat roof. I
don't know the best method to deal with it but in the meantime, I'm
designing everything away from it.
Air admittance valves where ever possible, Bath vents through wall
etc. So no skylights I'm afraid.
Which is to bad, I think one of those tubes would look great.
Edited 6/7/2008 5:06 pm ET by Henley
We just have the one shower and the one window, but it's kinda similar. It's a fixed window, bottom about 5' off the floor, Kerdi shower. The shower's pretty wide, so it very rarely gets spray on it. The tile is travertine, and I made an inside sill for it from a travertine threshold. There's Kerdi over the top of the ledge and up the bottom rail of the window, with a lot of Kerdi-Fix holding it in place. The sill sits on that, then there's liberal caulking all over.
The window is wood (Al-clad outside) and painted with marine paint inside. If I had it to do over, I'd probably have gone with vinyl/fiberglass/cellular PVC. But what we have is holding up OK over the past couple of years.
I've done glass block in a shower, but never a window, though I have put windows next to Jacuzzi tubs.
There's some good comments here about sealing and materials etc., but I would add: Code will require you to install tempered glass...I would take it one step further and install laminated glass; tempered glass can shatter and still cut the #### out you....laminated glass (think auto glass or atrium skylights), tends to hold together....much safer.
One way to do this is with a compression curtain rod on the outside wall with an attractive curtain cut to just below the window sill/skirt. Open and close with the use of the shower. The window NEVER gets wet.
Our window for reference
View Image
Edited 6/8/2008 10:14 am ET by junkhound
I like it!
Looks like yours is laid out so the spray doesn't really hit the window much at all.
Mine will definitely get hit some, not in the direct line of fire but
right there.
I put windows in two showers in an ICF house. I used fiberglass awning windows with solid-surface sill/casings. Walls are tiled. I used a peel & stick membrane under the casing. Both windows have a view, let a lot of steam out on warm days, and make the shower very bright.
yeah, it seams like if your gonna go through the trouble
you should be able to open it and reap the venting rewards.
I've done three showers with windows and love the light it brings into shower. I did modify the process somewhat every time. As far as I know all are functioning without problem. I was meticulous on the details thinking it's gotta be waterproof before the tile or backer. Have not done Kerdi but don't see where it would change things in a big way. I never used an opening window, light was the only consideration for a small room and all had vent fans.
First one was tempered obscure single pane glass in wood frame I made.
Second was a dual glazed tempered insert, again a made up frame and external stop. Smooth glass to shower.
Last, which is pic, was a vinyl frame dual glazed, again obscure.
All were similar sequence. Building paper pans and wrap whole opening. 1/2" backer sloped to inside at 10 degrees or so , 1/8" gap at window and poly roof caulk all around. Thinset tile all around, gap at window, this caulked with silicone.
Esthetics wise I liked the look of direct glass to tile interface of the first two, but the vinyl frame simplified the install and met budget. If I were doing it for my own house, I'd do it that way or maybe f'glass frame with as little exposure inside as possible. I might consider stone one piece sill for ease of cleaning, but like the look of tile. Basically building a niche with a glass back.
This pic is pre-grout. Missed getting one after I completed, but you get the idea.
View Image
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
So your sending the water in?
As opposed to pitch slope to outside.
Shower water contained inside, think niche with glass back. Outside is a conventional flanged vinyl window, no sill. Any shower water that gets between glass and frame will exit through weeps in frame on outside.
Best way I could think of to leave a sill for shampoo etc. I talked client out of an opening window because of all the nooks and crannies that would inevitably pool water and mildew + hard to clean. I sized the opening and ordered window such that I didn't didn't have to mod existing opening in vinyl siding. Pan and membrane rough opening , Installed window, vycor flanges, then exterior casing.
If someone had to have an opening window, I'd reccomend higher window that wouldn't see so much shower splash. Plumber on this job installed shower head way up the wall, don't know why, client is about 5' tall!
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end.
Here's one with glass block.
Billy
I've installed plenty of windows in showers without problem. I've always used durock so I know you'll be okay with kerdi. Also I tiled the sills, so if you use corian or some other single piece for your sill you'll be plenty safe.
One thing I think worth mentioning is that I silicone caulk all the inside corners before I grout. This makes for a solid, flexible seal that's keyed in to the joint, rather than laying on top of the grout.
I pitch the sill just a little, about 1/4" for a 6" sill. This is enough for water to run off but shampoo bottles, nick-nacks and such don't go sliding off.
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See some of my work at TedsCarpentry.com
Sounds good.
The caulk first idea is a good tip.
Thanks.
I do the caulk first in all my showers, window or not. And actually, I'm thinking I should switch to using poly caulk. Not that I've had any problems with sillicone but I think poly would be even better. --------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at TedsCarpentry.com
I've seen two approaches. The first is the glass block approach that has been mentioned. In the place I saw it, they had a very small awning style window - in the glass block - to allow for a little ventilation.
The glass block looked very nice. They had a vinyl type trim all the way around the glass block (flush with the wall), so it looked very water tight. In my opinion, it didn't look very attractive from the outside. From the inside, it provided a lot of light. Personally, I thought it wouldn't provide a lot of privacy.
The other approach I've seen is to use an awning style window that is up higher, shoulder height or so, that is supposed to be above the splash line. In the application I saw, it was tiled all the way around the window - looked pretty water tight, and it doesn't get that much water anyway. Not as much light as the glass block approach, however.
Henley I have put several wood windows in showers they have been fine one has been in for over fifteen years. A few rules to follow.
Use a 48 x18 awning window.
Mount it above 5 foot 5.5 idea if you can
No wood trim, install tile so it over laps the frame of the window.
Caulk grout between the tile and wood.
Before you install give the wood on the window about five or six coats of exterior water based poly.
or install glass block.
Just a reminder did not read all posts in detail the glass will need to be tempered.
I can post pictures if you would like.
Wallyo
Edited 6/9/2008 9:22 pm ET by wallyo
Wallyo, Thanks,your method jives with what I've been hearing and thinking.
The problem is your guy's are suppose to come up with a water tight
(get it?) reason why I CAN'T put a window in!
Now I'm gonna lose a weekend sawzalling a hole in my house.
Henley I can get a picture of what I am talking of tomorrow and post it. It is at my sisters house that is why after fifteen year I still have access to it. It is total wood inside and out, saved the glass block for the shower wall on that one. Did her upstairs the same way when we built the dormer. That leads to the only problem I have had with it. The upstairs bath is directly above the down. When I put the dormer in for her the new weight made the downstairs window stick a bit. a few properly placed trim screws took care of it. That is the only problem they have had. It is high enough it does not get drenched with water but you still have a view. I think I set the header right up against the top plate. Up stair to get it higher since the walls are 7' plus a little I used Trust Joist header material Timer strand which has a depth as small as 4 3/8 inches.Wallyo
Either vinyl or glass block, what is your reservation with vinyl?
I'm a snob.
The rest of the house has Anderson windows, and I thought it
wouldn't match very well.
I'm not a huge fan of vinyl windows myself but like all things, there are good products and ####. Most of what you see is ####.
As mentioned above there are fiberglass windows as well, Marvin has a line and so does Pella. Most people here hate Pella, I've used their fiberglass windows on 2 jobs so far and they seem like a good product.
Then there's always glass block which if done properly can look nice inside a shower.