My window install (new construction) involves Tyveck house wrap on the sheathing, X cut and folded into the r. o., caulk the nailing flange and install/secure the window. Then used Tyveck tape on the nail flange — housewrap to finish , prior to siding. The Marvin windows I used, have a built in head flashing(?) that overlaps the head casing, so I did not use any other flashing. Any errors here?
Now the problem:A water leak, but only one, possibly from the siding attach screws?…. I had a siding problem and CertainTeed acknowledged and replaced all the siding and reimbursed me for all the extras’-wrap, tape, hardware, insul board, caulk, etc. and labor. On the back of my 2 story house, I have many windows, and during a major wind/rain storm, I noticed a minor downstairs window leak, which I was able to confirm where it started, when I demo’d the defective siding. It (the leak) originated from an upstairs window, and appeared to be leaking from the side jamb area, which is in line with the center of a downstairs window. Further inspection shows the leak appears to be at the SS screws that I used to install the siding & 3.5″ trim lineal. I think the driving winds are forcing a lot of water up against the trim lineal and then wicking into the sheathing from the SS screws.
Since I’m going to strip everything back to sheathing (only 10 sq out of 28 was hung), I would like to use Ice & Water shield(6-8″ wide) or similar around the windows. Is this the answer or is alum head flashing the fix? or both? Should the Ice & Water go directly on the sheathing or on the wrap?(I’ve read either way has been used). House is located in CT and on a ‘windy hilltop’- when the forecast is a windy day, I have to BOLT everything down or else its history<G>
BTW- I read something somewhere about Tyveck window wrap? Is this the same as Ice & Water, and if so, where can I find info. I can’t find any info about that brand with google or yahoo.
The siding is vinyl Perfection Cedar Shingles.
Thanks for any help…..
Edited 1/18/2004 12:13:58 PM ET by bob
Replies
do not skip the head flashing, Bob. That is what is cucial..channels to the sides. The window seal can go over the toiletpaper..uh, tyvek.and should fly.
The head flashing on the window seems enough, but I'll add the xtra. Then again if the water is wicking into the sheathing upstairs, from the SS screws, what will prevent the water from draining on the inside of the sheathing...which is why I thought of Ice & Water
toilet paper........hmm, good name<G>
Must be one hell of a wall fixture to hold it, even with the 3'
I can't see wicking screws in my mind..don't seem right. Let me ponder some more..
Wish I could post a drawing, but picture this: The 3.5" vinyl trim lineal is sealed against the jamb. The wind driven rain hits the channel of the lineal and travels down. One fix would be to flash(under the sill)this lineal water on to the top off the siding, but it looks like crap...I tried. The biggest cause is the WIND DRIVEN rain(gotta love mother nature). But it only happened at one area, SW corner of backwall. There are 9 windows, and one french door. No other leaks or stains/signs of leaks at any other area.
OK..I pondered..still am following my old adage.."Think like water"..what if, big IF..to get the water where you WANT it to go, RATHER than finding it's own way..think like a waterchain..ya know? a chain that drops from a gutter so the water runs down IT..to a barrel..like a pc. of dental floss on a dripping faucet to make the drips run silently..is there some thing in the way of the path of easiest resistance? Is there a way to help cappilary action move the water?,,I am actually thinking that a wick can be introduced and solve it..not sold on the wicking screws Idea unless the pilot holes are extreme, if so take them out squirt in caulk and re screw..
I am actually thinking that a wick can be introduced and solve it..not sold on the wicking screws Idea unless the pilot holes are extreme, if so take them out squirt in caulk and re screw..
That has merit, but again, I can't shake the Ice &...........idea
No holes hogged out here;-), but I did think of caulk for the screws. Besides, if I did caulk a couple screws, I'd want to do them all! Now thats overkill<VBG>...
Possible cut or hole in the toilet paper. (I like that name too...Fits)
Sealing tape seperation?
If the butts on those siding pieces don't interlock absolutely correct they will channel water behind the siding and then it'll become a free for all.
The water being channeled by a screw(s) seems very unlikely.
Scrap the TP. I believe Certainteed says not to use felt.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
no holes or tears, tape still intact, but tape doesn't really seal screws like Ice & water shield. Corner seals ok too.
If the butts on those siding pieces don't interlock absolutely correct they will channel water behind the siding and then it'll become a free for all.
Yeah. but are they really watertight?<G>. The seam is free to expand/retract which could(?) possibly leak. At least with the Cedar Impressions, you start at the right side of the wall and move left, which in my case is to my benefit. The leak is at the left end of the wall.
The water being channeled by a screw(s) seems very unlikely.
My thinking here is because of the spiral threads on the screws allowing a path(?) for the water. BTW, I have 3/4" perforated foil insul board under the siding. So some of the threads are not really sealed/biting into this. Which is why I might use Ice & water shield around the windows. But just a thought for now. What's your HO?
No felt is used.
The lieal start strip. Look there. A screw used to fasten down the start strip may have opened a void allowing water in and to channel.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
The lieal start strip. Look there. A screw used to fasten down the start strip may have opened a void allowing water in and to channel.
Agree and thats why I think ICE & Water is a good install here
The I&W might not be compatible with the Certaineed. Best look into it.
SPHERE had it when he said to caulk the holes.
Just put the same stuff up on a couple of gables. It can be a PITA.
Vynal isn't water tight by any stretch of the imagination. That's why all the drains. Consider it an ornament.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
AH ....so you've used this stuff. Looks nice, but big time PITA. Gotta wach the temp vs gap spacing........it drove me nuts at first. But now after a summer and winter season, I know how much it moves so I can keep the gaps tight. The temp marks are not totally accurate!
The I&W might not be compatible with the Certaineed. Best look into it.
I'll have to check, but cant see where a 6-8" strip around the windows would cause any harm to the siding.
Thanks for the input
Good possibility it's not chemicaly compatible. Bleed thru??? tht'd be the pits.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Didn't even think about that...thanks
Super company to deal with though. My warranty problem was a 'sheen' problem and they covered everything, even the demo labor. So you can bank on it that I'll check for compatibility.
Flashing tape - that is what you need. The kind we use is similar to Grace I&W shield. It seals around nails very well. Can't remember the brand. Lumber yard sends it out to the jobiste. Also, as said above, don't skip the head flashing. Here is the sequence: Some people leave off the bottom piece, the thought is that if water does get behind the window, it can drain out the bottom. So, if your gonna do the bottom, that goes on first, Then the sides. Then, here is the critical detail; cut a slit in the housewrap above top window flange. Slip the flashing tape under the housewrap and into this slit. Adhere that piece of tape to the top window flange and the bare sheathing. Then take some housewrap tape and tape the housewrap on top of this top flashing tape. Now all the fasteners holding your windows in place are covered, and any siding nails you drive up near the windows will be sealed by the tape. Like sphere said above. Think like a drop of water.
I first saw this in FHB about 1998.
The first Google search I did showed this one, but not sure it has the bituminous backing that I talked about. I don't like their installation diagram though as it omits detailing the top to shed water as described above.
http://www.densona.com/pdfs/DensoMiscellaneous/DensoFlashingTape.pdf
The following is for a product I have used but it was about 4 years ago when I couldn't find it locally so I ordered it:
http://www.protectowrap.com/cat_btfbt20.php Ignore the picture of the guy putting it right on the sheathing. They also sell some floor protection film that works great to protect carpet in an almost finished house: http://www.protectowrap.com
Looks like Dupont has a product too: http://www1.dupont.com/NASApp/dupontglobal/corp/index.jsp?page=/content/US/en_US/news/product/2001/pn02_09_01c.htmlMatt
Awsome, that's what I was looking for! You think its better than the I&W shield.? Plus, if I use the primer, I can still use it in this balmy weather here in brrrrland <G>
Thanks a mil
Bob
I never used for ice & water shield for that purpose, so I can't say.
The primer I never used so don't know about that either, but I can tell you that this is the way to go. Have used the flashing tape on a bunch of houses. I will say though, that of the tyvek is very damp, the stuff won't stick that well.Matt
You can get that tape at Lowe's...at least here..I just used some last week 6.00 a roll, and it aasays it does two average windows..It wouldnot stick to cold steel roof, but it will stick to itself real good<G>..I had some better stuff down in NC, but cant find it here..about 10'' wide and REAL sticky..thin and black, when I run down again I'm gettin some more from that lumber yard..they just called it window sealer..ask yer small time place that carries windows..
Any chance you can dig up the 10" stuff (brand name) from NC? I'll pay for the phone call!! Coming from you, that sounds like what I want. That width would seal the trim lineal and starter strip screws, which I'm 95% certain is the cause of the leak(based on the stain on backside of toilet paper<g>)
Wish I checked back in for your reply last night, but went out to plow my drive.............6" of a light dusting! Wonder where they get these weather forecasters'? OOPS, guess that was tonight, Duh<G>
>>If you can get a brand name or ph# that I can order some (10" stuff) drop me an email. Thanks, big time! I'll check bLowes out meanwhile.
Edited 1/19/2004 9:34:15 PM ET by bob
Bob, I can't be sure when I am going down..this weather is messin up my plans too..I can tell ya this..Southern Lumber Co. Skyland Dr. Sylva, NC 28779..828.586.2412...I only know it by " That sticky stuff ya put around the window" sorry, but we're a little different in the south...<G>..the FIRST roll I had was 12'' by 50'...the next roll was maybe..8'' I don't really remember, I will call them TOMORROW..they (at contractor sales desk) know me..but now it's a 5 hr. drive..uuuggghhh. I am going sometime, jus dont know when,, ..how much time before ya get going on the 'fix'?..If REAL soon I'll see about shipping..email me yer address.. [email protected]
maybe they will send to me, and me to you..good luck plowin..Duane
check your email...........its on its way
sorry, but we're a little different in the south.
why, just cuz u eat camel burgers don't mean ur different, or duz it??
whooups...do this email instead..my spam control ate your reply before I got to it..I hope ya get this in time..
[email protected]
that'll let ya through the door..I hope.
my zonealarm was messin with the aol.hell last nite..sometimes mozilla acts funny with prospero..so I been switchin thangs around a bit..makin it all worse
Sphere
I will use the alum head flashing this time but what size...10-12" H x 6" wider(on each side) than the window? Should be enough I think.
If yer puttin in the I&W Stick IT OVER the alum at the head, the alum . never lays dead flat and that will help..so just make sure the alum. head is below the height of the finished I&W,, and as wide as you need to make turndowns at the sides, I fold an ear, down...Caulk the screws too. If yer up ona ladder do EVERYTHING you can the first time..lol.
Live and learn<G>.........When I stripped the original siding(vertical T&G pine junk), there was no head flashing. It figures, it was a spec house, as I've learned! I asked my neighbor about using the head flashing since he built his house himself. I showed him the new Marvin windows, and he said no flashing should be needed since the new windows had a built in one. So that is what I did. Whats odd is no other leak is present, even with similar placement of the other upstairs windows over the lower ones. So flashing it is, but I need to check compatibility first. However since the I&W will be under the insul board, I think it will be ok. Thanks for the info and help.
If yer up ona ladder do EVERYTHING you can the first time..lol.
on a ladder?.....you must be kidding! I painted this place twice in 10 yrs on a ladder, and the 30' gable end peak was freaky with the friggin wind blowing. My old werner blew over so many times(no,I wasn't on it!!) it looks like a giant........................
C
Now its scaffolds and pump jacks. :>)
OH Gawd, DON"T say the pump jacks word..cuz if they ain't the new aluminum poles you will hear about it..lol
from what the game looks like on the tube you ain't going out today..good luck with it..hope ya can get her licked<G>..on second thought DO NOT LICK THE FLASHING ..unless it is above 32 F.
OH Gawd, DON"T say the pump jacks word..cuz if they ain't the new aluminum poles you will hear about it..lol
Oh well, bring it on:-). The 4 6' scaffold sections and the $$$ siding left me eatin at the soup kitchen, so no alum jobs here.....
from what the game looks like on the tube you ain't going out today..good luck with it..hope ya can get her licked<G>..on second thought DO NOT LICK THE FLASHING ..unless it is above 32 F
Yeah good game..GO NEW ENGLAND
The only lickin here is inside, warm and wet!;-}
If you x-cut the Tyvek and folded it in, what did you do to the upper flap of tyvek? You should have kept that one out, and slipped the window flang behind it, and then cut straight across the front so it just covers the flange. The side and bottom tyvek pieces are properly folded in, but not the top. I also like to use caulk behind the flange to avoid ANY wind driven problems.
When I use ice and water shield, I put it on prior to tyvek. I place the bottom piece on first, folded over the RO sill, but leaving the plastic backing on the part that is over the outside wall. Then I install the window (backcaulking the flanges) and then put the side and then top strips of water shield on. Then, when I tyvek, I tuck it under the bottom and the remove the adhesive backing, and then cover the side and tops.
If you x-cut the Tyvek and folded it in, what did you do to the upper flap of tyvek
Not what I should have, I see. I folded it in. Also I wish I did what you mentioned with the I&W before the windows were installed. I will do that on the other 11 windows that I will be replacing, but the 9 out back are already in and I'll just use it around the perimeter.
Thanks
Hi Bob
We are using Tyvek door and window seal on our house, and like it a lot. For the window application, I think it's a lot easier to work with than the Ice & Water shield material would be. The tyvek wrap is very sticky so the seal is excellent. It stretches so it easily wraps around corners. We are using both FlexWrap and StraightFlash. It's fairly expensive but I think worth it. WE got it at our local lumber yard.
Here are Tyvek's web sites:
http://construction.tyvek.com/en/productServices/Flashing/flexWrap.shtml
http://construction.tyvek.com/en/productServices/Flashing/StraightFlash.shtml
Velux makes a similar flashing for their skylights. It was less expensive than the Tyvek wrap, but more difficult to work with.
kestrel
thanks........