Replies

1. 
   Piffin | Nov 22, 2002 07:10am | #1

   I agree that the trim adds to the appearance and value but the wife usuallly wins.

   Put the metal flashing on anyway and make sure that all tarpaper and Vycor laps over that. Always keep laps facing downhill.

   That 1/4" caulking gap sounds excessive to me too but it woulddepend on the siding material and its expected movement.

   .

   Excellence is its own reward!

   "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius

1. 
   crawdad12 | Nov 22, 2002 08:46am | #2

   Thanks for the reply, Piffin.  You're right about the bride usually winning, but she hasn't decided yet anyway.   If you don't mind me picking your brain a bit more, how do you generally go about trimming out an Andersen or similar type window?  I have 5/4 x 4 red cedar. Do you just lay the casing flat around the perimeter of the window or make some sort of "sill " at the bottom.     I agree that the 1/4 in gap seems like alot.   On the shed I built last year I butted the trim up tight to the windows ( alocal vinyl manufacturer) and then white cedar shingles butted tight to the trim.  I haven't noticed the shingles buckling or any problems with the windows operating.  I have to wonder if its a requirement the company lawyers put in the literature for warranty purposes . Again , thank you.

1. 
   Piffin | Nov 23, 2002 02:57am | #3

   I like to apply the caulk bead before the trim or siding. It then becomes an adhesive caulk and prevents water penetration without being seen. The main reason for a caulk gap is to provide a key for the caulk to fill into. Without a gap, you are merely smearing it onto the surfaces of the material where it is likely to peel away. With my way, therre could be a problem in ten or fifteen years when the next painter comes along to caulk and paint but I can't really see that the bead I put in will ever weather/wear out since no UV rays get to it and I use the best I can find.

   If you are using a siding that expands, for instance the old hard board stuff, you need a gap so it doesn't pressureize the window jamb.

   I think this CAD drawing details the answers to your other questions with the gree being the casing stock and the purple being the window with flange..

   Excellence is its own reward!

   "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius

1. 
   jonblakemore | Nov 23, 2002 03:06am | #4

   Piffin,

   Is the relieved back just so the casing lies flat over the nailing fin?

   Jon Blakemore

1. 
   Piffin | Nov 23, 2002 03:11am | #6

   Yes, it is. One pass through the table saw sets it right, taking a blade width off. The sill is all seven degree passes on the tablesaw with different depth settings. I can rip up all the window trim for an average size house in two or three hours..

   Excellence is its own reward!

   "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius

2. 
   Piffin | Nov 23, 2002 03:08am | #5

   I'm sorry, let me downsize that file a little here....

   Excellence is its own reward!

   "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius

3. 
   JohnSprung | Nov 23, 2002 04:31am | #7

   Piffin --

   Can you post that as a .DWG file?

   Thanks --

   -- J.S.

1. 
   Piffin | Nov 23, 2002 04:43am | #8

   I'll give it a try but it might not post here as DWG.

   Will the forum software display it? I'll have to run it through two programs to make it but let's find out.....

   Excellence is its own reward!

   "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius

2. 
   Piffin | Nov 23, 2002 04:55am | #9

   Well, that was interesting. Let's try it again.

   Excellence is its own reward!

   "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius

   
3. 
   Piffin | Nov 23, 2002 04:59am | #10

   I don't know what happened the first time but these files will upload but you can only view them if you have the aplication or program for it on your end. It looks like prospero only supports common graphics files. .

   Excellence is its own reward!

   "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius

4. 
   xMikeSmith | Nov 23, 2002 05:09am | #11

   piffen.. i guess you did that in softplan, right ?

   can you generate .bmp ?  they convert easily to .jpg

   BTW.. i notice you use a shallow rabbet on the back of the side casing trim because of the nailing flange bump... if you apply a picture frame of a granular ice & water.. you won't need the rabbet and the added bonus is the joint between the trim & siding is double protectedMike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

5. 
   jonblakemore | Nov 23, 2002 05:26am | #12

   Mike,

   "if you apply a picture frame of a granular ice & water"

   That sound like a great idea all around.

   Jon Blakemore

6. 
   Piffin | Nov 23, 2002 05:45am | #13

   I use Vycor and it still builds equally over the flange and next to it so the casing will still roll. What am I missing?

   Softplan will save to dxf or BMP. I then use Irfanview to resize and save as JPG or GIF. There is another way I can use SP to saves as a JPG which is what I did in this first time but that is why the large file size. The JPG captured all the information re: the white background. Here's the same JPG reduced in Irfanview. (In the photo gallery, I posted a link for the dowload if anybody wants it - free) The reduction makes it slightly fuzzier.

   Bitmaps are too large of a file for line drawings or e-mails, IMO.

   Excellence is its own reward!

   "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit. The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are." --Marcus Aurelius

   
7. 
   jonblakemore | Nov 24, 2002 11:21pm | #15

   I believe Mike is saying you use a double layer, one tight to the jamb and one starting at the perimeter of the nailing fin.  The logic being that the thickness of the vycor is about the same as the fin, so then you have a flat surface to apply casing to.

   Jon Blakemore

8. 
   Piffin | Nov 25, 2002 01:46am | #16

   Ah sso!

   Ah see!

   Ah say.

   ;o).

   Excellence is its own reward!

   "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.

   The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."

   --Marcus Aurelius

9. 
   xMikeSmith | Nov 25, 2002 02:01am | #17

   yes , irfanview is a great general purpose program.... most of my pictures i manipulate and catalogue in Thumbsplus!V..

   .. back to the window trim....most of our trim is 5/4 casing from GP PrimteTrim... and we use a double 15# felt spline, then the window gets nailed on.. then we go OUTSIDE the nailing flange with a granular ice& water which is about the same thickness as the roofing nail/nailing flange... the surround is about 5" - 6" depending on the width of the casing.. so the joint between the casing and the siding falls about in the middle of the ice & water strip..

   for your daddoed false sill , we make those out of Trex decking.. we can get 2 pieces of 15 deg. beveled stock out of one piece of Trex.. after we've ripped the bullnose off..we backprime everything  .. and the sill is rot proof and the casing highly rot resistant...Mike Smith   Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore

10. 
    Piffin | Nov 25, 2002 02:44am | #18

    I saw the picture you posted once with the trex sill and put that in my memory banks. I've got a stock of SYP 5/4x6 that I've been using from and backprime them too. On a higher end job or one where a thicker sill is needed to match the old, I use red cedar 2x for them and still backprime. I like your suggestion about putting the vycor sitting up to the flange over doubled felt. I'd probably still want to run it over the flange at the head piece though.

    I noticed later that the first drawing here - the really big file one - was actually a btmp even tho' I had it labeled jpg. that's why the large size suprised me. I messed up something in my shortcut procedure to save it as a jpg.

    .

    Excellence is its own reward!

    "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.

    The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."

    --Marcus Aurelius

11. 
    JohnSprung | Nov 27, 2002 03:54am | #19

    Thanks for the files, Piffin.  I was most interested in getting .dwg and .dxf to be able to take a closer look using AutoCad.  The .dxf worked better, .dwg had a lot of "fatal error" problems that were resolved by doing a recover, audit, and purge.  But in both cases, the colors and layering were lost, all the lines were one color on one layer, and the text on another.  Does your program do the random hatching like that, or do you hand draw it and copy it?  The hatch translates to individual lines in AutoCad.

    BTW, that doubled rough sill is something I haven't seen done out here.  Is it really done that way, or did you just copy and rotate the drawing with the trimmer and king studs?

    -- J.S.

12. 
    Piffin | Nov 27, 2002 04:24am | #20

    In SP, I could assign different pens and that would translate the colours through if it were worth all the trouble. SP doesn't speak in layer terms but still does it behind the scenes without letting you know tho maybe in their own propriety way. I work in different "levels" called drawing, floors, ceilings, roof, areas, imterior, electrical, framing and site plan. These are probably preconfigured "layers", each having drawing tools unique to that level. What I draw in any level will display, if choosen, in the 3D Softview module. Anything drawn is listed if choosen, in the Softlist module for materials listing.

    I assume the reason that all the lines showed up in the translation as one colour is that I never selected different pens to draw them with. I drew with lines and with boxes, selecting a colour for each from my edit tool. As to hatching, I can draw a line and edit it to be say, three quarters of an inch wide with any of about a dozen "textures" which are all various hatch patterns or the traditional solid, dashed, dotted, or centerline. You see that I drew the lines representing the window thicker. The thickness on the standard default line is 0" but I set those at .0625" or 1/16" When I select a hatch texture for a line or a box, I can set my hatch increment spacing. I think theses were at .5" if I remember right.

    SP has an "export to dxf" command and most drawings go through pretty good as two dimensional line drawings. I'm not suprised that using another program to re-translate again to dwg produced errors.

    Someday, it would be interesting to send you a pair of such translations of a more complex drawing, doing one dwg translation in Turbocad and another in Intellicad for you to compare errors on.

    We do build with a double sill plate under windows here and most places I have worked. I provides plenty of nailing for trims, in and out. I did draw it with a copy and rotate though.

    More asides following. don't want too long a post.

    Excellence is its own reward!

    "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.

    The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."

    --Marcus Aurelius

13. 
    Piffin | Nov 27, 2002 04:44am | #21

    Softplan has realy weak basic CAD drawing tools for plain old drawing. It is better to use Turbo cad or another program for plain drawings like this but I'm still learning those and get myself confused with going back and forth so if I can draw it with SP, I do.

    The strong point of SP is the hidden power behind the screen. ie. Drawing walls. It comes with a library of walls or I can create my own and add them to that library with the tools. Smae with window opennings, etc., each item have attributes unigue to that type of item.

    Say that I am going to create a load bearing wall with ferro cement siding over furring rainscreen over tarpaper over sheathing 5/8" on 3.5"[email protected]"OC filled with fibreglass and lined with vapourbar on doubled top and bottom plates (humour me - maybe the bottom plater is PT to build on a slab) and then finished inside with 3/4"foam topped by painted SR. I can create that wall in about twenty or thirty minutes and then use it forever. Anytime that I draw that wall, shortenning or lengthening it, the engine is listing all of the materials needed to build it, right down to nails and paint, at standard use rates. I can go to the frame level and control how the corners are framed as in determining which wall is built first. section lines placed through a wall will show all that in the section drawing or I can command it to generate a frame plan for every single wall with layout dimensions if I were drawing for a kit or a DIY.

    All that info is automatically there when all I see is a couple of parralel lines or three on the plan drawing.

    If I want to use a uniquely designed bathtub, I need a DXF 3D of it to make into a SP symbol and then I can use it too. I've barely touched on all that #D creation where SP doesn't provide the tools but it can be done inconjunction with other programs. Once the 3D dXF drawing exists, It's easy to make it into a 3D symbol to use over and over again..

    Excellence is its own reward!

    "The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.

    The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."

    --Marcus Aurelius

4. 
   crawdad12 | Nov 23, 2002 07:44am | #14

   Thanks for taking the time to draw that up.   I use the same caulking method for the same reasons.  Just wondered why Andersen spec'd that 1/4 in.   I'll be using white cedar shingles on the house and don't see them growing enough to impede window operation. Thanks again