Replies

1. 
   maddog3 | Mar 16, 2006 07:00am | #1

   in the panel !

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   'Wer ist jetzt der Idiot?'
2. 
   BillHartmann | Mar 16, 2006 07:07am | #2

   You can either use a GFCI breaker or use a GFCI receptacle or dead front.

   The GFCI can be place where a receptacle on the kitchen small appliance circuit it allowed. Basically anyplace in the kitchen, dining room or pantry.

   The deadfront GFCI is the same as a GFCI receptacle except that it does not have a receptacle and only feeds downstream loads.

1. 
   etherhuffer | Mar 16, 2006 07:48pm | #3

   Duh'oh! I will now slink back to my electric basics book.Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities- Voltaire

3. 
   Stuart | Mar 16, 2006 08:42pm | #4

   I started thinking about this and got curious, so I went to the Wiremold website.  In their FAQ section it says their products aren't available with built in GFCI protection, and to do what Bill suggested - either connect them to the load side of a GFC receptacle or to a GFCI circuit breaker.

   It does kind of make you wonder why they don't sell such a thing.  Maybe it's a packaging issue, not being able to get the GFCI to fit inside the Plugmold.

1. 
   etherhuffer | Mar 16, 2006 09:30pm | #5

   They have some sort of overload breaker on the plug in model. I saw the site too and that is why I asked. Seems like a no brainer to put on that product.Those who can make you believe in absurdities can make you commit atrocities- Voltaire

1. 
   DanH | Mar 16, 2006 10:20pm | #6

   They'd probably have to do a massive UL qualification thing. Easier to let the user install the GFCI.
   If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people

   happy?

1. 
   DaveRicheson | Mar 16, 2006 10:55pm | #7

   Since you mentioned UL listing, I'll throw out a warning.

   On July  28 the UL listing for GFCI recepticals will be changing.

   UL 943 will require that a GFCI will not deliver power to the receptical if it is not capable of providing ground fault protection. (Interpretation: there will be no reset buttons on future GFCI recepticals. They will be one shot and replace devices.) The second change is that the GFCI will deny power to the receptical if it is mis-wired.

   Distributers will order the new GFCI's as they deplete thier current stock.

   My supplier says the new GFCI recepticals cost about $12  to $13 each vs. the $8  to $9 each for the current flavors.

    

    

   Dave

1. 
   Stuart | Mar 16, 2006 11:10pm | #8

   This is what the UL website says, at http://www.ul.com/media/newsrel/nr020606.html:

   "The new UL and CSA requirements include:

   End of Life Provision: when a GFCI receptacle is incapable of passing its internal test function (it can no longer provide ground fault protection) it will either a) render itself incapable of delivering power, or b) indicate by visual or audible means that the device must be replaced.

   Reverse Line-Load Miswire: a GFCI will deny power to the receptacle face if it is miswired.

   In the United States, manufacturers must stop producing old versions of GFCIs on July 28, 2006, and must introduce new, redesigned GFCIs after that date. Distributors can sell and contractors can install old GFCIs until their supplies run out."

   I don't see anything there about the new GFCI's being one-shot deals where you have to replace them every time they trip.

2. 
   BillHartmann | Mar 17, 2006 05:08am | #9

   "UL 943 will require that a GFCI will not deliver power to the receptical if it is not capable of providing ground fault protection. (Interpretation: there will be no reset buttons on future GFCI recepticals."I don't think that means that there won't be a reset button.If that is the case then there can't be a test button either.BTW, I was notice Lowes they where priced at around #12.50 instaed of the 8 something that they where.

3. 
   DaveRicheson | Mar 17, 2006 01:12pm | #10

   I'll hike the half block over to the supply house today and  take a look at the new ones. Maybe even talk  Sandy out of some lierature.

   Should have thought of this Wednesday. That's free donut day. I'll just have to settle for popcorn today.

   See the sacrifices I make for you guys <G>

    

   Dave

4. 
   BillHartmann | Mar 17, 2006 03:21pm | #11

   I did a little googling. Most of what I found was just the press release.But I did find this from P&S.http://www.passandseymour.com/psgfci/ul_revisions.cfmLooks like it has test and reset buttons.Also the revese wire requirement has been in for a while, but this might have changed some details.

5. 
   maddog3 | Mar 17, 2006 04:32pm | #12

   from the link....."These Standards for Safety are essential to help ensure public safety and confidence, reduce costs ....."so one way of reducing costs is to first raise the price.?...............Brilliant !!I like the Idea of this thing taking itself out of service..... or providing a indication that it's broke, so why did they leave the darn ol' Test and Reset buttons in the device....? I can't wait until HD has a Saturday class on how to install them.
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   'Wer ist jetzt der Idiot?'

6. 
   BillHartmann | Mar 17, 2006 05:15pm | #13

   Sounds good to me as long as HD has free donuts.

7. 
   DaveRicheson | Mar 17, 2006 07:16pm | #15

   OK, I made the hike.

   Got the free popcorn.

   The GFCI, as they now exist, still have the test/reset button but will not reset if the receptical itself has an internal ground fault or goes bad in any way.

   The July 28, change will add an additional safety of not allowing the device to work if it is misswired. Current models do not have this feature.

   Also checked on the new universal electronic ballast. Two/three tube fixtures either 120v or 277v can be rewired with one dual voltage ballast for $16. A four tube fixture goes to one ballast at a cost of $19. Bulbs decrease from T12 to T8 sizes and energy savings increase. Makes upgrading old fixtures more attractive on a large or small scale.

   Remind me  to go back next Wednesday for more information,..... and free donuts!

    

   Dave

8. 
   BillHartmann | Mar 17, 2006 08:38pm | #16

   "The July 28, change will add an additional safety of not allowing the device to work if it is misswired. Current models do not have this feature."I think that someone has it backwards.http://www.ecmweb.com/mag/electric_leaving_mark/index.html"The changes at hand, which take effect Jan. 1, 2003, call for improvements to a GFCI's ability to handle higher surge current, a greater immunity to damp, corrosive environments, and the inclusion of a new feature that would cause the device to trip and cut off power indefinitely in the event of miswiring (i.e. line-load reversal) — changes that will most certainly make GFCIs safer, but their adoption, and more importantly, the denial of one proposal in particular have raised questions as to whether there were other motivations for making the changes.""The changes to UL 943 put less of a strain on Leviton's product development teams than others — the company's SmartLock GFCI already met some of the new standards, including a feature that “locks out” the user if the receptacle is wired backward, only supplying power once the receptacle has been wired correctly. The device has been available since 1999, and after updating its surge resistance capabilities, Leviton is now offering the receptacle in full compliance of the 2003 standards. It even goes a step further and shuts down completely if a test finds it no longer capable of providing ground-fault protection; after such a failed test the reset button can't be depressed.""Sidebar: Changes to UL 943After nearly eight years of discussion, planning, and testing, Underwriters Laboratory has released the following changes to its standard covering ground-fault circuit interrupters, UL 943: * A more stringent voltage surge test to ensure the GFCI can handle a higher surge current.
   * A corrosion test to demonstrate greater immunity to moist conditions.
   * An operating test to verify proper operation of the GFCI can't be prevented by manipulation of the GFCI controls.
   * A line-load miswire test that requires the device to trip when miswired.
   * An abnormal overvoltage test that requires the GFCI not to become a fire or shock hazard during extreme overvoltage conditions.
   * Increased requirement for the GFCI to operate properly after exposure to conducted radio frequencies."Notes, these are all change in 2003.BTW, the article is an interesting read as there was discussion of automatic testing back them."Eight years ago, Bill King, chief engineer for electrical and fire safety at the CPSC, approached then commissioner Ann Brown with a concern he and other engineers at the government agency shared: GFCIs weren't as safe as they could be. The devices could degrade and lose their ability to protect against lethal ground faults yet still provide power. If homeowners tested the devices once a month as UL suggests, they could detect any problems and have the receptacle repaired or replaced. However, King and Brown both knew consumers could neither be trusted to conduct those tests as often as recommended nor take the necessary steps to fix the situation if they found a receptacle to be faulty.The two agreed the consumer should be given as little responsibility as possible in ensuring the safety of the product. If homeowners weren't going to conduct the tests as often as they should, there needed to be less of a reason to test at all. The devices should be strengthened against things like surges and corrosion so failure was less likely. In fact, why not remove the consumer from the equation altogether? Design GFCIs that could test themselves. The device the CPSC had in mind would effectively shut down and cease providing power if it detected a hazard. The technology was there, or at least close — GFCI manufacturer Leviton had already begun work on a receptacle that would lock and refuse to reset if installed incorrectly, and Pass & Seymour/Legrand has since then developed a similar power-denial technology — so the next step was getting the industry to support a standards change.""ames Ruggierri, P.E., a forensic analyst for General Machine Corp., who served on the STP for the revisions to UL 943, has other problems with the proposed lock-out requirement. “It seems like a good idea on the face, until you start looking at it more closely,” he says. “What will people do [if the receptacle locks out and shuts down]? They won't repair the GFCI in most cases. Most people will delay it, and they'll start running extension cords from the adjacent space, and that's a very sloppy fix.”"

9. 
   BillHartmann | Mar 21, 2006 06:37pm | #19

   Doing some more research on this I found that other than P&S other brands done have anything that I could find on their website about the new changes. They all refer to the 2003 changes.This is what Cooper has."Underwriters Laboratory (UL) recently issued changes to its standard 943, the
   section containing GFCI testing requirements. Since January 1, 2003 all
   UL-listed GFCIÆs are manufactured meeting several key new performance and
   self-diagnostic test elements:
   A reversed line-load miswire function that prevents the GFCI from being reset and
   subsequently providing power to downstream receptacles.*
   Increased voltage surge immunity.
   Increased levels of corrosion and moisture resistance.
   Increased immunity from radio frequency interference.
   An operating mechanism test, to verify that proper operation of the GFCI cannot be
   prevented by manipulation of the GFCI controls.
   An abnormal over-voltage test to better protect the GFCI from becoming a fire or shock
   hazard during catastrophic over-voltage conditions.
   *Note that under new UL943 requirements, if line-load miswired, the GFCI receptacle face may still remain powered and
   without GFCI protection."This does answer one question that I have. While the 2003 version would not allow the receptacle to be reset if it was reversed wired the FACEPLATE was still hot. The new 2006 update requires that the face be dead.And here is the Levitons; http://www.leviton.com/sections/prodinfo/gfci/sheets/lockoutgfi.htmNOTE that is is all based on the 2003 requirements.It has the same comments about while it has reverse wiring indication that the faceplate will remain hot. The also have this under the features of their SmartLock system."Automatically tests the GFCI every time the RESET button is pushed in. The GFCI will not reset if the GFCI circuit is not functioning properly

   Blocks the RESET button if GFCI protection has been compromised, reducing the possibility of end-users incorrectly assuming that a reset GFCI outlet is providing ground fault protection when it actually is not"So it has features similar to the new requirments.Also I found this which I though was interesting."GFCI cannot be reset if neutral is not present. It can be tripped with TEST button under this condition"Now I don't know how to tell the difference between the new ones and the older ones.P&S has been using SafeLock and Leviton SmartLock with a symbol of padlock with a lightning bolt through it since 2003.But both the Lowes, HD, and the hardware store are charging $12 for the GFCI's where they where $8 plus a couple of months ago so I am SPECULATING that they the new ones.

10. 
    BillHartmann | Mar 23, 2006 06:42pm | #20

    In an other thread the question came up about if GFCI's where affected by polarity. http://forums.prospero.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=71180.117I did some testing and bought a new Cooper GFCI and the box was labeled "Meets New UL943 Requirements". But it did not meet the dead face requirement for reversed wiring. So I did not know if this ment the 2003 or the new 2006 requirments. So I wrote Cooper and I got a quick and rather detailed answer from Cooper.The current Cooper Wiring Devices "XGF" device meets the 2003 UL 943
    requirements, but does not meet all of the functionality outlined in the 2006 UL 943 Standard. Wiring device manufacturers have until July 28, 2006 to comply with this latest UL revision. Our new devices will have a "VGF" numbering nomenclature, and will be made available as required. They will cost more, due to these mandated enhancements.

    # End of Life Provision: when a GFCI receptacle is incapable of
    passing its internal test function (it can no longer provide ground
    fault protection) it will either a) render itself incapable of
    delivering power, or b) indicate by visual or audible means that the
    device must be replaced. The current "XGF" device meets this requirement.# Reverse Line-Load Miswire: a GFCI will deny power to the receptacle
    face if it is miswired. The current "XGF" device does not meet this requirement.# I have tested a new unit just purchased from Lowes. The package
    states "Meets NEW UL943 Requirements" and also on the side of the
    box; This packaging scheme was established in 2002, with no knowledge or
    anticipation of another UL standard change in such close proximity. It is referring to 2003 UL 943 standard compliance, however.# If these are not new version how will the new versions be labeled? The new "VGF" series will indicate on the packaging that it conforms to 2006 UL 943 standard requirements.Reading the cutsheet copy on the Levitons I appears that there status is very similar.

11. 
    Soultrain | Mar 17, 2006 05:49pm | #14

    I certainly hope they don't remove the reset button.  That would seem pretty ridiculous to me if your saw ground faults & trips the breaker, you should be able to toss the saw (or repair it) & then reset the breaker.

    Once the ground fault problem is address, why should you have to replace the receptacle (or breaker)?  After all, it's still functioning.

    Second, if the requirement is that the GFCI takes it self out of service (or notify the user) for being unable to pass it's self test, you'd still need the test button.  How would the receptacle know if it can't pass the test if your unable to test it?  (There could be a way, & I'd be interested in hearing how that would work)

12. 
    maddog3 | Mar 19, 2006 12:30am | #17

    that seems to be the point of the new standard
    ......if it fails the self test...you won't be able to reset it
    its a no-win, either it works or change it out. anyway, who checks their equipment regularly..? does anyone exercise the breakers with NO-load periodically ?IMHO the most dangerous component of any circuit, ......is a lifeform there was a picture here awhile back of some barefoot nimrod standing on a metal ladder in a swimming pool doing electrical work........
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    'Wer ist jetzt der Idiot?'

13. 
    Soultrain | Mar 19, 2006 12:52am | #18

    that seems to be the point of the new standard......if it fails the self test...you won't be able to reset itits a no-win, either it works or change it out.

    It would still need a reset button.  Otherwise, when it trips due to a ground fault in your toaster, you'd have to replace the entire breaker/outlet instead of just unplugging the toaster & restoring power to the outlet/circuit.

    That was the point of my post anyway...

    Edited 3/18/2006 5:53 pm ET by Soultrain