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Discussion Forum

wiring a new wall sconce

ar7499b | Posted in General Discussion on January 11, 2008 09:59am

Hello there,

I am planning on adding two wall sconces in my living room, where there are currently no lights at all.

I have some experience working with electric wiring (changing switches and that sort of thing), but this will be my most ambitious undertaking. I am pretty comfortable with my tools, and I know to shut off the power and check with a circuit tester before touching anything.

The locations for the lights seem ideal. There are outlets directly below where I want the lights. The previous homeowner (a commercial electrician by trade) rewired most of the house during a major renovation. The outlets are wired with the left side on the wall switch already, and not the right side.

So it seems like it should be easy to tap off the wire from the left side of the outlet, and have switched lights.

My questions are :

Do I have to use BX cable (he seemed to use this wherever he did not use rigid conduit). I am in Northeastern IL, and I think I remember reading or hearing from my home inspector that shielded cable is required in this area. If not, can I use romex type wire….

Am I likely to overload the box that the outlets are in by adding additional wires and wire nuts and all? I know that you don’t want to do this as a safety concern. If this is an issue, should I try and pull out the old box and replace with an extra deep one?this might not be easy to do….

Do I need to install a box in the wall where the lights will be? I guess I don’t just want to drill a hole and have a wire coming out and into the back of the light fixture…. Do I need to use on of the round boxes, or would a normal single gang box work?

If there are any other concerns I am missing, please feel free to point them out. Any help will certainly be appreciated.

Thanks,

ar

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Replies

  1. DonCanDo | Jan 13, 2008 04:05pm | #1

    The outlets are wired with the left side on the wall switch already, and not the right side.

    I don't know what this means.  Left and right sides of a wall switch?

    Do I have to use BX cable...

    Use whatever the codes in your area require.  I haven't heard of BX being required for in-wall use, but the codes can be specific to your area.

    Am I likely to overload the box...

    Not LIKELY, but it doesn't matter if it's likely.  It only matters if it will.  Check to see how many connections are in the box now and look into how many connections are permitted in a box that size.

    Do I need to install a box in the wall where the lights will be?

    It depends on the fixture.  Most fixtures require a box and I've never seen a wall sconce that doesn't.  The very few wall sconces that I've installed used a single gang box, but check the fixture to be sure.

  2. Danno | Jan 13, 2008 04:27pm | #2

    To help out DonCanDo, do you have duplex outlets that have been run horizontally and so only the left one of each pair are controlled by the switch? Anyway, "what Don said". I would think code would require a box behind the wall sconces, and a standard rectangular box should work, but the instructions that come with the sconces should show you how to connect and some I've seen do require a round box.

    1. ar7499b | Jan 13, 2008 07:56pm | #3

      thanks guys for the responses.

      The outlets where I will be getting power from are horizontally mounted duplex outlets. The left sides are switched, and the right sides are always on.

      DoncanDo - I appreciate your recommendation to follow code, and to determine if the boxes are overloaded. I am afraid that I may not make the assessments correctly. I have tried to read through the code, but I am not sure I understand what I am reading, and in regards to the load in the box, I am aware that this is an issue, and I remember reading that there is a formula to figure it out, but I am not sure how to do it.

      If I cannot get help determining the requirement for BX vs romex, would BX be considered the conservative approach? As I said, it is definitely in use in parts of the house. Is there a reason not to use it besides cost over romex?

      And in regards to the box at the installation point, I guess I will have to pick out fixtures first, and then see what the recommended box style is.

      Thank you for your help,

      ar

       

       

       

       

      1. User avater
        maddog3 | Jan 13, 2008 09:05pm | #4

        you can check right here, thanks to CAP.....http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/how-to/articles/more-wires-need-bigger-boxes.aspx?.

        .

        .

        ., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?

        1. ar7499b | Jan 13, 2008 09:32pm | #5

          thanks, that will certainly help calculate the amount of room needed in the box. I will get in there and see what I am dealing with today.

          ar

          1. User avater
            maddog3 | Jan 13, 2008 09:45pm | #6

            anytime.
            be careful,
            turn everything off,
            check for voltage.... twice.....
            make sure your tester is working, it will be evident what kind of box you have just by taking the cover offand as far as the cable to use, if there is BX in the wall use BX besides ,I don't think you will find much Romex in your area anyway, if you are near Chi-town.
            since just about every collar county uses conduit, I just can't recall what Lake County allows.

            .

            .

            ., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?

      2. edlee | Jan 13, 2008 11:24pm | #7

        It's probably MC, not Bx (fyi Bx is referred to in the NEC as "AC" cable).  There's a difference. 

        It's more fussy to install than romex.  You need the proper connectors and cutting tool. It is less flexible and easy to damage the metal covering if you bend it too much.

        If you're going to use it, get some kind of DIY wiring book and read the section on MC/AC cable.

         

        Ed

        1. User avater
          maddog3 | Jan 13, 2008 11:49pm | #9

          apologies.... it must be a regional thing
          around here everything is just referred to simply as BX....... except of course greenfield
          .
          and there really is only two ways to do things in Chicago....... EMT or Rigid.
          .everything else is "old work"
          .
          ., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?

          Edited 1/13/2008 3:54 pm by maddog3

          1. ar7499b | Jan 14, 2008 12:55am | #10

            Well, thanks for all the responses. I guess I am off to buy some ac cable, and maybe a book of tips too.

            The walls are VERY thick plaster, so I am not too worried about the weight of the lights.

            I guess cutting the shielding without hurting the wires inside is the biggest concern. I have a small pipe cutter, but I will look into what the stores have for cutting. Maybe if I go to a real hardware store instead of HD, they will be able to cut it to length for me.

            It should be pretty easy to run, since I am only going about 5 feet from the outlet to where I want the lights, but with an older house like this (1940 or so), who knows what I will find in the walls.

            Thanks everyone,

            ar

          2. DonCanDo | Jan 14, 2008 01:04am | #11

            A pipe cutter won't cut metallic cable.  I've seen electricians cut it quickly and easily with a lineman pliers, but I can't describe just how they did it.

          3. User avater
            maddog3 | Jan 14, 2008 05:07am | #13

            the cleanest way to cut the outer jacket ......or" shielding "....... of armored cable is with a special saw #1940 that Greenlee sells, about $30 and Lowes should have it, kind of expensive if all you have is two lights to hang.. if you don't buy that saw.......you will have to do this
            experimenting with some scrap pieces, use a sharpie to mark where you want the cut, then bend the cable with both hands to form a loop close to your mark until the steel jacket snaps..it takes some force and the loop you form is going to be very small before it snaps.... you may need to hold both ends of the cable in one hand and move your free hand closer to the loop to get it to break...lots of squeezing and it 's not easyonce you have accomplished this, you need to make a loop in the jacket where the break is....
            make the loop opening large enough to allow diagonal cutters to cut the jacket, but not the wires
            you must cut the jacket with the cutters parallel to the wires, like you are cutting paper with scissors......
            any other cut will just mangle the steel and you have to start overuse the plastic anti short bushings DanH mentioned and re-form the jacket so that it will fit into the connector. one end will be easier to re-form than the other..to make life easier try to locate this tool at a supply house....
            http://www.mytoolstore.com/klein/1104.html.. about $20that's the easy part...getting it down the wall is something else.
            you may encounter some fireblocking, if that is the case you're going to get the chance to learn plaster repair toothere is another way to cut AC using a hacksaw, but I wouldn't recommend you attempt it.

            .

            .

            ., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?

          4. User avater
            BillHartmann | Jan 14, 2008 05:22am | #14

            If it is in the same bay he should not have to do any plaster repair, even with a fire block.But may need a flex drill bit.He will have a big enough hole for the sconce box that he should be able to drill through the fire blocking..
            .
            A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

          5. DanH | Jan 14, 2008 05:26am | #15

            I've always cut armored cable with a hacksaw or a cutoff blade in an angle grinder, and never had trouble with it. The trick is to only make the cut partway through and then "worry" it the rest of the way, so you don't nick the insulators. The Greenlee tool only works with certain sizes of cable, not the smaller ones.
            If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

          6. User avater
            maddog3 | Jan 14, 2008 11:50am | #16

            I was taught to use a hacksaw too but I had to cut all the way through to the wires, this gave my journeyman could else to yell about. In fact I never used anything but a hacksaw or a pair of dikes, that greenlee thing was considered a sissy tool, I finally bought it about 10 years agoand it cuts 3/8 flex.......

            .

            .

            ., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?

          7. ar7499b | Jan 14, 2008 07:15pm | #17

            You guys are great. Thank you for all of the valuable information.

            If I end up having to drill, I should be ok. I recently found a 3 or 4 foot flex bit in my basement. If the cutter is gonna make it much easier, I am willing to spend 25 bucks. I figure that investing in a tool I will probably use again is worth it. I already have a small hacksaw, though, and I should only have to cut two pieces from whatever legnth cable I buy, so I will probably try that first.

            My kids are both sick, which slowed me down this weekend, but I will try and open up the outlet today and see how much is already packed into the boxes. I am afraid that this is likely to be my biggest problem. I really don't want to tear the old ones out to install larger ones. I am hoping for as little touching up as possible. The paint is a few years old now, and I don't want patches to show. Of course, I REALLY don't want to repaint a whole wall.

            All the talk about drilling and fireblocking has me a little worried too. These locations flank a fireplace. I think I should be wide enough to avoid any masonry, but that would be a dead end for sure. While I have the outlet open, I will try and push my fish tape up the wall and see if I hit anything......

            Thank you all again for the continuing fantastic input.

            ar

      3. DonCanDo | Jan 13, 2008 11:28pm | #8

        Yes, BX would be the conservative approach.  In other words, you can't go wrong.  Also, the existing boxes should have BX cable clamps (probably built-in) which will make it easier to connect the new BX.

        If the sconces are heavy, you may have to open up the wall to secure the new junction boxes to the studs.  Otherwise, "old work" boxes should be OK.

        Don't hesitate to open up the wall to do things the right way.  You can always come back here for help with repairing any holes :-).  Repairing holes, BTW, is something I do all of the time.

      4. DanH | Jan 14, 2008 01:34am | #12

        Open one of the outlets and see what's in there. If it's romex you'll be able to see a short segment of the outer sheath where it comes through the cable clamp.The main reason for not using BX would be that if the boxes are designed for romex you won't be able to attach the BX. Plus BX is a little more difficult to fish. (If you do use BX don't forget the bushings!)Also note roughly how big the boxes are and how many wires are in them. If the box is already jammed full then you won't be able to fit in more wires. And note whether there are any left-over knockouts, and whether you'll be able to get to them from inside the box.For mounting the sconces you probably want "old work" boxes of the appropriate shape (round, octagon, or rectangle). These are boxes designed to mount through drywall without the need to fasten to a stud. But you SHOULD NOT use old work boxes if these are heavy sconces -- they need the security of being fastened to a stud. (Don't ask me to define "heavy" -- it's kind of a judgement thing.)Unless this is the same circuit as an air conditioner or some such, load on the circuit should not be an issue. Most sconces use 60W or smaller bulbs, and the current drain won't put you over the edge of anything unless you're already overloading stuff. The only real "load" issue is the "fill" -- the number of wires in the box.
        If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

  3. DanG | Jan 15, 2008 12:37am | #18

    If you go to

    http://www.cityhpil.com/government/ordinances.html

    and download the Chapter 172 Electrical Code PDF, it says in Article 300-1, "Where necessary to fish through existing partitions, flexible metal conduit may be used."

    I would recommend looking at the rest of the Chapter as well.

    1. ar7499b | Jan 15, 2008 01:43am | #19

      DanG, thanks for the link. I guess that eliminates any question about what to use Now I just need to get in there and see if this is a job i can comfortably handle.

      ar

       

      1. ar7499b | Jan 15, 2008 02:33am | #20

        WELL.... here's what I found. The box is plenty big, I think. Black metal with what appears to be a LOT of screw open plugs. The wiring is coming into and leaving the box through 2 holes in the top, but there is a third plug still in place. I have no idea how to unscrew it though. One thing I did not consider is that since the wires pass the fireplace, they might go up and over inside rigid conduit, which would pass very close to where the lights will go.

        The wiring is black/white and purple, with some circuit id tags on them to help figure out which wire is which.

        I guess the question now would be - Can I get the last screw plug open, and snake flexible conduit up through it?

        If I were to hire an electrician, do you think they would just keep at it until they had done it that way, or would they insist on chopping up the wall. I am not sure if you can make it out, but the walls are made up of a layer a some kind a particle board material, about 3/4" thick, with a layer of plaster (or plaster board and skim coat) I can't tell, which is about 3/8" thick.

        I think it might be time to buy some new lamps and forget about it, but that room really needs additional light. I thought I had come up with the perfect solution, but now I am afraid I might be getting in over my head on the wall destruction part, not the electrical part (Thanks to all of your help!!!).

        ar, disappointed but not yet defeated

         

        1. DanH | Jan 15, 2008 02:53am | #21

          That wiring is not particularly neat. A lot of space could be recovered by pigtailing the wires in the box vs joining them on the outlet like that.How many cables total enter the box right now? Seems like it should only be two cables of three wires each (not counting ground), but hard to tell in that rat's nest.
          If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

        2. DanH | Jan 15, 2008 02:54am | #22

          (It sounds like the plaster you're describing is some sort of "rock lath" configuration.)
          If your view never changes you're following the wrong leader

          1. User avater
            maddog3 | Jan 15, 2008 03:26am | #24

            if its what I think it is, we called that stuff button board.... its just two layers of very old DW.

            .

            .

            ., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ?

          2. ar7499b | Jan 15, 2008 11:50pm | #25

            I want to thank all of you who contributed. As always, this board is full of very helpful people. I think I am going to give in. While I think I might be able to accomplish my goal on a technical level, I think what will happen is that I will make a mess of the plaster and end up hiring someone to clean it up. SO, I think this project is going on the back burner.

            Thanks again,

            ar

        3. User avater
          maddog3 | Jan 15, 2008 03:23am | #23

          the box appears to be a 4" square box and a plaster ring for mounting the recep.it is possible to get your flex in there but it will take patience .
          First turn OFF the power to those outlets

          pull all of that wire out of the box
          make a little diagram of what goes where
          or take a picture
          BTW the purple wire is the switched side of the receptaclethe wires are looped onto the device. so if you decide to change out the outlet you may have to pigtail those in the box..... adding to the fill, but only if you cut them when you are done with that .. using a scratch awl begin prying out the knockout in the top of the box.
          it will come out by applying some of the aforementioned patience and persistencethen, if you are still feeling capable, cut a hole where the sconce will mountmake sure you make the hole the right size for your NEW box,then use a small mirror and a flashlight to look up and down from both openings to determine if there is anything in the way..if it is clear get some string and a small heavy weight like a nut
          hold the string on the outside and measure down to the outlet, mark the string and using your mirror, drop it down the wall.
          pull the string through the hole you made by prying out the knockout. measure your AC leave it about 6-10" longer than the string
          cut the ends of the jacket off, install the connector and anti short bushing to the end going down .......remove the locknut........ and .now it gets tricky
          you are going to feed DOWN from the sconce opening to the existing box
          first by tying a clever knot onto the wires. then feed down while pulling on the string and maintaining pressure on the flex as it goes down the wall, do not let it go and don't let it drag , you will break the string only after you cut a nice slot in that wall with it
          and using patience once again, you will have to start over !there's more......if you haven't pulled your hair out by now.In all honesty, you should get an electrician to do this, he can be done in no time at all
          .
          .
          .
          ., wer ist jetzt der Idiot ? Edited 1/14/2008 7:30 pm by maddog3

          Edited 1/14/2008 7:31 pm by maddog3

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