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Discussion Forum

Wiring for 230V MiG Welder

Senna | Posted in General Discussion on November 4, 2006 10:25am

I am looking for advice on how to wire a line for my new 230 volt welder, a Lincoln Electric Mig Pak 15.

<!—-><!—-> <!—->

I would like to run a cable to my garage. I need instruction how to do this. I’ve done wiring before but never any 230 volt installations. Do I really need to use 8awg wire? Sounds expensive. Not planning to be in this house for much longer.

<!—->  <!—->

I am curious why the manual suggest such a large input wire when the welder itself has is fed by a relatively small one. See spec below.

<!—->  <!—->

I was also thinking of using the dryer outlook as a power source but it uses a much different plug. Can I use the dryer outlet? If I needed to work somewhere other than home it would be nice to have that ability. I would like to create a extension cord to plug into the dryer outlet.

<!—->  <!—->

<!—->  <!—->

Specs for my new Mig welder:

<!—->  <!—->

It comes with a 12/3 AWG conductor line cord with 50 amp 250V three prong plug NEMA Type 6-50P.

<!—->  <!—->

The recommended input cable and fuse size are:

<!—->  <!—->

Input Conductor size 8 AWG and ground wire 10 AWG.

40 Amp Fuse size, 22 Amps input.

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Replies

  1. brownbagg | Nov 04, 2006 11:42pm | #1

    Can I use the dryer outlet? If I needed to work somewhere other than home it would be nice to have that ability. I would like to create a extension cord to plug into the dryer outlet.

    yes

    1. plumbbill | Nov 04, 2006 11:46pm | #3

      That's what I used to do when I lived in a rentel house.

      Had a 10/3 SO cord worked great.“It so happens that everything that is stupid is not unconstitutional.” —Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia

    2. Senna | Nov 06, 2006 10:44pm | #25

      So how do you create an extension cord that runs off a dryer plug?

      The welder manual says the plug is ground hot hot. What happened to the neutral? 

      I checked HD for prices. 8/3 runs close to $7 a yard. I need to run from the panel to the garage which are at opposite ends of the house. I am looking at $300 for materials to wire this thing.

      Serioulsy thiking of taking it back and gettting the 125v model.

      1. brownbagg | Nov 07, 2006 01:06am | #26

        do not get the 125 model, The 230 is so much better. two hots and a ground. netrual only used withequpiment that has a 110 circuit built in, like a timer.

        1. Senna | Nov 07, 2006 01:36am | #27

          I am completely confused how 220 works then.

          On a 110 volt system there is one positive wire a neutral wire and a ground.

          So with a 220 volt there is 2 positive wires ( hot wires) and a ground? How does that work? Does the ground actually carry any load? There must by juice running through the ground.

          1. BoJangles | Nov 07, 2006 02:22am | #29

            Not trying to be a smart a##, but I think you had better find an electrician!

          2. MikeHennessy | Nov 07, 2006 03:58pm | #30

            220v is two circuits of 110v each, 180° out of phase. 110v is the potential between either one of these legs and ground -- i.e., you get 110v from each leg to ground, but 220 between the two hot legs. So, unless there is a need for 110v, the neutral is the ground for the circuit made of the two hot legs.

            Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA

          3. Senna | Nov 07, 2006 07:12pm | #31

            So to achieve this 180 degree out of phase do you need a special converter or ciruit breaker?

            Or is it the wiring similar to a clothes dryer where you have two hot 125v circuits but instead of having a dedicated ground and neutral with a welder the ground and neutral are the same thing? 

          4. brownbagg | Nov 07, 2006 09:19pm | #32

            no,yes

          5. brownbagg | Nov 07, 2006 09:20pm | #33

            well you need a circuit breaker just not a special one or converter

          6. User avater
            madmadscientist | Nov 07, 2006 10:20pm | #34

            No really, find an electrician to do this for you.  The weld pack 15 is a decent welder you need to make sure you wire this up correctly.  Actually, Tauton has a pretty decent wiring book you should check out.  Really no offense, but from the questions you are asking you really don't seem to know anywhere near enough to do this on your own.

            I have the little Lincoln plasma cutter and had to wire an extension cord for it.  I don't' know how it does it but it can autoswitch from 110V to 220V.  I wired up an extension cord with a regular 20amp 110 female plug on one side and a 30amp 220V male plug on the other.  Man was I scared first time I used it but it worked no problems and now I can take the cutter places that only have 110V and use it but at home in the shop I can use its full power.  Believe me, unless you have the patience of Job you want as powerful of a plasma cutter as you can get.

             Daniel Neuman

            Oakland CA

            Crazy Home Owner

          7. renosteinke | Nov 08, 2006 02:38am | #35

            I have nothing but the greatest respect with the folks who weld. Welding was the first time I really appreciated the "skill" in "skilled trade;" you can't get that by reading a book! Do the other trades the same courtesy. My car uses gas, but that doesn't make me a petroleum engineer! Not meaning to sound negative, but your questions are so basic, you really ought to leave electric work to a pro. Indeed - and I do not mean this as a personal slam- your comment about dryer wiring suggests that you've already "learned" some things that are either incomplete, or incorrect. As Dirty Harry said, "A man's got to know his limits."

          8. brownbagg | Nov 08, 2006 02:52am | #36

            note on welding: 230 v mig is a most excellent machine. ( I have one) to weld with Tig is a talent, I wish I had. Plasma cutter, ohhhhhh more power.Mig is easy of all the welding. But for satifaction I like to crank up the crackerbox to about 130 amp, handful of 7018 rods and just catch myself on fire.

          9. plumbbill | Nov 08, 2006 04:12am | #37

            Keeping the grinder disk manufacturers in business are ya“It so happens that everything that is stupid is not unconstitutional.” —Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia

          10. plumbbill | Nov 08, 2006 04:17am | #38

            Curious I have seen plenty of dual voltage equipment some with wire change others with voltage switch, but never seen an "auto" one before.

            Don't know if I'd want an ext cord that had a 220 male & a 110 female on it unless I was lettin my neighbor borrow it , that I don't want him asking ever again------<G>

            Almost all my tools will work on 220----- very fast & for a very short time period.“It so happens that everything that is stupid is not unconstitutional.” —Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia

          11. User avater
            madmadscientist | Nov 09, 2006 05:28am | #39

            Yea the manual was pretty vague on how the 'auto-switching' works. I called their tech help to clarify and were not real helpful either.  They said to cut off the 110V 20amp plug and install a 30amp 220 plug of my choice.  I figured why limit the machine and thats why I made the adaptor cord.Daniel Neuman

            Oakland CA

            Crazy Home Owner

  2. plumbbill | Nov 04, 2006 11:44pm | #2

    They recommend a 40 amp breaker.

    10g could melt before breaker trips---- theoretically

    That's why they say 8awg

    here's a quick fire ref chart

    Gauge Breaker Amps
    14 15
    12 20
    10 30
    8 40
    6 55
    4 70
    2 95
    1/0 150
    2/0 175
    3/0 200

    “It so happens that everything that is stupid is not unconstitutional.” —Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia

    1. User avater
      BillHartmann | Nov 05, 2006 12:02am | #4

      That chart isn't appropriate for all applications.Special dedicated circuits use completely different computations for overload protection and wire size.This is specially true for motor and refigeration (AC) loads.I know that there is whole special section for welders, but I don't know enough to comment on it and am not going to spend the time trying to figure it out.

      1. plumbbill | Nov 05, 2006 12:56am | #8

        I was under the impression that chart was strictly wire to breaker sizing.

        Since IIRC a breaker is to protect the wire not the equipment.“It so happens that everything that is stupid is not unconstitutional.” —Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia

        1. User avater
          BillHartmann | Nov 05, 2006 01:40am | #12

          "Since IIRC a breaker is to protect the wire not the equipment."It is. On a general purpose circuit you never know how much or what kind of combination of loads might be on the circuit. So the breaker needs to protect it against long term overloads.However, in the case of motor loads either the motor has internal overload protection or the motor start has it. And you know what the motor load is. So you don't need to protect the wire against long term overloads, but rather faults from shorts.For AC units compressors, which have two motors and maybe a heater, those calculations are all worked out and listed on the label in most cases.You will might find somethine like min circuit capacity 18 amp, Max HACR breaker 35 amps. That means that you can run it on #12 and use a 35 amp breaker.

          1. plumbbill | Nov 05, 2006 02:45am | #15

            That means that you can run it on #12 and use a 35 amp breaker.

            I fully understand the logic & the specs, but does that meet code?

            Does the manufacturers specs overide code?

            I know in plumbing it's up to the inspector & they can deviate from code at their discretion.“It so happens that everything that is stupid is not unconstitutional.” —Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia

          2. User avater
            BillHartmann | Nov 05, 2006 05:10am | #16

            Yes, that is all based on the code. If you go through the appropriate sections of the code it tells you how to make the calculation.

          3. plumbbill | Nov 05, 2006 06:48am | #18

            OK got it

            I'm pretty week on NEC I admit it.

            I know far more about electricity than I do the code.

            I guess my concern would be if it is undersized cause that piece of equipment says it can be, then sometime in the future it gets swapped out with the same type of equipment , but the requirements are different.

            That would suck to have to pull new wire, romex, or mc“It so happens that everything that is stupid is not unconstitutional.” —Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia

          4. User avater
            xxPaulCPxx | Nov 05, 2006 05:41am | #17

            It is up to code ONLY if the line is dedicated to the appliance, not if anything else can be connected up to it.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA

            Also a CRX fanatic!

  3. BoJangles | Nov 05, 2006 12:32am | #5

    Apparently they feel you need more than a 30 amp/ 10 gauge circuit.  They are probably considering voltage drop through the line etc. 

    Since there is no such thing as a common 40 amp plug, that I am aware of, then you jump up to the 50 amp plug.

    I would bet that you could weld almost anything ( but the heaviest metals for extended periods of time) and never overload a dryer circuit.

    The 12 gauge cord on the welder does seem a little light.  That is probably the weak link if anything is going to melt down!

    1. Stuart | Nov 05, 2006 12:49am | #6

      They take the duty cycle of the welder into account when sizing the power cord, which I imagine is why that one uses only 12 AWG.

    2. plumbbill | Nov 05, 2006 12:54am | #7

      Smaller wires on tool cords is quite common.

      6amp drill motors have 16gauge cords

      My welder 230v has a 14g cord--- first thing that popped into my head---- cheesy POS“It so happens that everything that is stupid is not unconstitutional.” —Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia

      1. BoJangles | Nov 05, 2006 01:06am | #9

        My welder 230v has a 14g cord--- first thing that popped into my head---- cheesy POS

        First impressions are usually correct!! 

        Did you turn it into a plasma cutter yet??

        1. plumbbill | Nov 05, 2006 01:20am | #11

          No haven't tinkered with doin that yet.

          Trying to figure out if a plasma cutter works with more high voltage or high amps.

          My lil portable one the shop sends me out on the job can put out 335vdc, but I don't know what amps.

          My welder can put out about 160amps on dc , but I don't know what volts.

          Well I like to tinker with tools so it should be fun lil experiment this winter.“It so happens that everything that is stupid is not unconstitutional.” —Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia

          1. brownbagg | Nov 05, 2006 01:58am | #13

            My welder can put out about 160amps on dc, but I don't know what volts.I know if you grab the ground while holding the rod. it make all your hair go funny. Ask me how I know.

          2. plumbbill | Nov 05, 2006 02:27am | #14

            You have hair??????????

            <G>“It so happens that everything that is stupid is not unconstitutional.” —Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia

        2. saulgood | Nov 06, 2006 06:29am | #23

          >"Did you turn it into a plasma cutter yet?"Bo, I have a few questions for you. First, how do you convert a MIG into a plasma cutter?Secondly, could this be done with a 115v welder? Third, is the conversion easily reversible?And lastly, is it worth it? I mean, how often do you REALLY need to cut plasma? ;>)

          1. plumbbill | Nov 06, 2006 06:45am | #24

            Last week I sported a thread on the subject if it was possible to turn or convert an ac/dc welder into a plasma cutter.

            That's why he was asking.

            I will be tinkering with this experiment this winter in my spare time.

            Big question is ---- does a plasma cutter rely more on high voltage or high amps.

            You can cut with a tig welder via turnin the dang thing all the way up, but that makes an ugly uncontrolled cut.

            From my understanding a plasma cutter is a relativly simple thing, but so is a helium neon laser. Trick is getting all the parts to work together for the tool to work like designed. Same with the laser, parts & assy is easy, getting mirrors to line up to excite the field to produce a beam---- well that's another story.“It so happens that everything that is stupid is not unconstitutional.” —Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia

          2. BoJangles | Nov 07, 2006 02:19am | #28

            Ya....Don't ask me!  That was Plumbill's idea.  He seems like a pretty smart guy, so I'm waiting to see what he comes  up with ;)

             

  4. VAVince | Nov 05, 2006 01:18am | #10

    The 12/3 is how long? 8' maybe? How long to your garage?

  5. renosteinke | Nov 05, 2006 08:01pm | #19

    Looks like it's "back to basics" time.

    Among the most basic NEC requirements are to follow the manufacturers' instructions. You are also required to use the right plug.

    For some silly reason, appliances (like welders) actually have nameplates on them; these provide needed information.

    At some point, we have to stop guessing, or falling back on "rules of thumb," and actually assume that the folks who make things know what they're talking about, and desire to help you, and their product, work well.

    OK, Sermon over. :)

    If they say you need #8, you need at least #8- all the way to the panel. Your dryer circuit isn't made for such a large load.
    Sounds like you went out of your way to get a large, quality machine. Why handicap it from the start? Would you put thin, cheap hinges on an expensive door? Saving pennies on the wire now will likely cost you $$$ in your welder later.

    So, do it right. It's possible the range circuit is large enough, and has the right plug. Better yet, add the correct circuit to the panel.

    1. brownbagg | Nov 05, 2006 08:32pm | #20

      I just look at my extenstion cord for my welder, its 75 feet long. 10/3 and have never had a problem in twenty years. But then I have never open the welder all the way open too. I weld about 130 amps

    2. BarryO | Nov 05, 2006 11:27pm | #21

      Among the most basic NEC requirements are to follow the manufacturers' instructions. You are also required to use the right plug.

      For some silly reason, appliances (like welders) actually have nameplates on them; these provide needed information.

      Bingo!

      The OP is "looking for advice" on how to specify a circuit for his new welder; he already has some from the manufacturer and seems to be asking if it is somehow OK to do something else.

      The only other "advice"  I'd add is to pull a permit and have it inspected.  After that guy on the Oregon coast went to jail a few years ago because he did a non-permitted furnance install, and a fire occurrd that killed a firefighter, it just makes sense to ensure that you're "off the hook" negligence-wise. 

       

      1. renosteinke | Nov 06, 2006 04:12am | #22

        "I do this all the time with no problems..." This is poor logic. One's own personal experience is a poor model from which to make a general statement. There are simply too many variables involved. In the case of welding, this is exactly why the machines have their own special provisions in the code, and that each welder nameplate has information on it that you will not find, say, on an air conditioner. Absent my actually seeing the nameplate, I have to assume that the folks who built the welder know what they're talking about in the instructions. There are tremendous differences between different machines, and different welding tasks require different amounts of energy. If the OP is only planning on tack-welding sheet metal, then he probably has way more machine than he needs, and has shot himself in the foot by getting a monster.
        If he's seam welding eight foot pieces of 1/2" plate, he's going to need every watt that machine can provide. I have lost track of the problems I have seen resolved by simply following the codes and instructions. Here we call them "RTFM mishaps."
        (As in "read that fine manual").

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