Man I just have to vent about what’s happening over at HVAC talk forums.
http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/ Particularly in the residential section. A lot of HO’s are asking legitimate questions and all they are getting are smart a$$ed answers by the “Pro’s” that hang out there each day. Just take a look at the thread about a HO looking for advice about hooking flex duct to the supply trunk. That’s is exactly what is wrong with the image of that business.
On a better note I have read some really excellent answers and gained a significant amount of know how from you folks here. It is very much appreciated when you just simply answer someone’s question and leave the ego’s out. Thanks folks!
Replies
be careful about the hvac-talk folks.
-they do not like any Do it yourself people. (even though they probably work on all their own stuff rather than calling the Maytag repair man or the Evinrude man , etc another professional).
Even simple stuff like replacing a circuit breaker is in their opinion a life threatening evolution that can ONLY be done by an HVAC pro. Don't think of putting on a new condenser fan blade - too dangerous. It might fly off and hit you.
- they claim ALL brands are the same the only difference is the installation !!!!!!!!!!! Do you know any other products where all brands are exactly the same?
- even tho ALL brands are the same, just by chance the brand they happen to sell is the best brand for you (isn't that special!!) . I bet Even tho deep in their heart maybe there is another better brand, but maybe they can not become a dealer for that brand for whatever reason.
- they seem to hate homeowners who ask any questions. And tell each other not to do any work for those types to "teach them a lesson". Odd - they are missing a sales chance.
-they also forbid ANY mention of that dirty word "price". Even though most of us are adult enought to recognise that job cost might actually vary with brand, job scope, and location in the US
they will not let price be mentioned+++++
- if you ask a question they do not know the answer to (example: for an open floor plan house with high open cathedral ceilings on first floor and walkover areas, how much of the AC capacity goes in the upstairs unit and how much in downstairs - most HVAC calc programs ignore that situation.)) , they say "call a local pro, he will know what to do"
Edited 7/15/2004 8:36 am ET by wain
Edited 7/15/2004 8:39 am ET by wain
I'm just waiting (and waiting) for the HVAC industry to open up. There are few industries/trades left where the DIY-er, or even GC's are locked out equipment-wise (and service/training/tools).
It's just not that difficult, OK, maybe sizing runs/capacities is, especially where software calcs don't work...but as far as service, repair and maintenance, it ain't rocket science!
> I'm just waiting (and waiting) for the HVAC industry to open up. There are few industries/trades left where the DIY-er, or even GC's are locked out equipment-wise (and service/training/tools).
Here in LA there's a little two-man shop called "John's Comfort Center" in Reseda. I got a replacement contactor from them. There's a lot of the swapping out parts or running ducts type work that could reasonably be DIY. But any time you get into the actual refrigerant, there's the EPA and expensive gear you'd rarely use, so that goes in the category with termite fumigation -- Even I'd leave it to the pros.
-- J.S.
termite fumigation...
you mean you didn't stock up on chlorodane in the 70's just before it became controlled. A number of use at work went together on a 55 gal barrel of the concentrate (think it was over $30 a gallon even then in quantity) so still have a diy supply. Ditto for penta, actually used some penta on a deck replacement board for my own place yesterday.
I can see it now:
"HAZMAT team called to to settle old man's estate!"
The headlines in Estate Planners Monthly.
I've come across a couple of my clients that I will disclaim any attempts by their wills and/or trusts to make me the settler of their estates. One guy even showed me his machine gun collection, crates and crates of black powder, even his bullet packing machine.
What else you got hidden in those back barns?
{;>)
There's almost nothing I can't do if I do a little reading and make a few mistakes. I don't expect it to look great on the first try, but it works mostly. Want to do some electrical or plumbing DIY? a thousand books available. No problem, even for fairly advanced stuff. The pros are not concerned about losing their jobs when a homeowner does some carpentry or adds an outlet.
HVAC? Nope. I looked all over to find some basic info on how to repair and adjust an oil burner. Nowhere to be found. I did it myself with the kind assistance of a Breaktime guy who emailed me some stuff from an old DIY book and sent a good few informative messages. A Time Life book, no less. But, the new editions have deleted the necessary info. Liability fears probably. Why they think its more dangerous than 240 volt electrical is beyond me. Anyway, now I'm no longer at the mercy of my heating contractor who charges $150 a year to run a vacuum for 5 minutes and use a couple gauges. No harder than any other trade and there are lots of books about those.
After seeing the totally FUBAR job some window and siding guys did to my wife's house (she had new windows and siding done just before we were married), I'm not so enamored of "professionals'" work. I told her her daughter would have known better than to do what these clowns did. I was out of the roof a couple weeks ago and noticed that the caulking around the window I crawled through had some problems. So I go out there today, thinking I'll just remove the bad stuff and recaulk. WRONG! No flashing, everything soaking wet and rotten. Carpenter ant tunnels all through the sill, full of the ants themselves. Would need way beyond the 1/2 hour I allocated to the job.
All their caulking did was keep all the water that was getting in from getting back out. So it looks like I can strip off the vinyl siding and the aluminum trim (trim shouldn't be hard to remove--I could pull the nails with my fingers, since the wood they went into were mush) and start rebuilding the wall. How far down I'll have to go is anybody's guess. Wife says she knew the wall was rotting when the sided, but somehow figured (and of course the siding people didn't tell her otherwise) that covering over the problem would somehow, like, heal it. Possibly if they had kept the water out it could have at least dried out and stopped rotting.
Found out earlier that the roofers did the same--just shingled over rotten sheathing. Oh, well, I was looking for something to do on my summer vacation.
Refrigeration tech are some of the meanest people in the web, They are, because they protecting their job. They will keep talking about certfication and how the government holding them back. The test itself is simple. I myself have the certfication. But out of 100 hvac site only about three are friendly. One called havacmechanic is real nice. The one over at doityourself.com in the hvac section. I hope I never meet that moderator in a dark ally. He is a total a$$. HVAC people are just mean. think about it, you do not see many large tech company, they all mom and pop type. so they are fighting for business. The largest HVAC company here has six employee but they are over two hundred company in town.
I found on HVAC site that seem's fairly civil.
http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/hvac/
It may be under other names on other sites. Not sure. Not very active, but usually get pretty good responses to most questions.
I've had some pretty bad "pro" jobs done. That's why I started doing my own HVAC work. Called for oil burner service. 2 weeks without heat in 20 degree weather while they ordered a part. 500 bucks and it worked for about 2 hours. Fixed it myself and it worked fine for the rest of the winter.
Mudlogger....does the name imply a job? I too was a mudlogger, my first entry level job after a Geology degree....man those time sucked..
When they start on this stuff, I question the expertise.....I live in the midwest, the heartland, and the only things we ever see, are 6" duct runs, stepped trunks, and 3x14 registers under the windows...high wall, and low returns...not exactly rocket science...but hey, if they want to protect there jobs, then good for them, but as soon as HD or Lowes starts selling package deals with instruction books.
Heat gain, flow, blah, blah, blah....a 3000 sq/ft house still gets 3 tons of air, and a 75k heat unit here...they look at the room size and say " we should throw some more air in here" duh.
yep that's my job. Been doing it for nearly 18 years. Only now my job has changed so much that only the title has remained. I too am a Geologist and basicly I do wellsite geology in that I control the depth's for casing in unevenly depeleted zone's and determine what formations we are drilling through. Jobs in the oilfield have gone high tech nowadays. I keep telling myself 5 more years and I'm outta here. :)
Dropped over to HVAC and dropped the following thread on a long DIY bashing thread, can't wait to see what kind of 'snot'? is returned. Having bought a heat pump off ebay should set a few HVAC guys off <G>.
"Over on the finehomebuilding site, there have been a number of posts talking about the 'prima donna'(soome less polite words used) aspect that HVAC techs seem to have - that said, this thread is a good example of why I'm 100% DIY except medical and dental, would do some of that too ; but the license requirements to write prescriptions are MUCH harder than getting the 608/609 license. Have not posted on this site for awhile, last was when I reviewed/contributed to the "goodman 'junk'" vs. everybody else thread and ended up with an e-bay goodman scratch and dent purchase (very satisfied, except for the cheesy sheet metal cases). When I posted with queries about the goodman, etc, I was given direct, consise answers in most cases - except from other equip dealers <G>. The only thing not done for the install (heck, even permanently installed 12 type K thermocouples) was replace the flowrater with a TXV as my 'grandfathered' recovery equipment isn't clean enough to want to reuse the F-22. Time spent getting the charge to what the instruments said was max efficiency (weigh in was within 1/2 oz of spec, 47 ' of line)within confines of compressor reliability was more that it would have taken to put in the pair of Parker TXV's "
That's exactly what I LOVE about this forum- people don't hit you too hard with the idiot stick, even when you (I, in this case) richly deserve it. As a DIYer in just about everything myself, I appreciate it greatly. You generally get the straight goods from people, not a sales pitch or a flip-off. Everybody's got their point of view, and as a smart guy I can weigh people's opinions and the evidence they give for them and make up my own mind.
I'm a DIYer out of a love of doing things myself, not because I have no respect for tradespeople and craftsmen- in fact it's quite the opposite. I NEED that opportunity to work with my hands because it makes me a better and more practical engineer, and I take tremendous satisfaction from the final product and the knowledge I gain in the process. I also know the difference between theory and practice (i.e. how things should work versus how they've been proven to work by people who have done it). So I want to benefit from the experience of people who do for a living the things I'm just visiting.
Good on ye for the E-Bay heat pump!
I worked my way up from mudlogger too.....I remember doing a Rose Run well in the Appalachian Basin for a "geologist" from Stone Resource and Energy, he was a know it all engineer or something, but far from a Geologist. He insisted on samples every 10' from surface pipe, to TD, which was 7500' and two bit trips.... I got him about 6500' of shale, made the log correct, but the samples did not match....think he EVER looked at those samples??????? Oh the stories I have......
Like plumbers?
Oh, excuse me, I means Master Plumbers.
Joe H
A similar experience this week. Fridge is not working. At all. But freezer is. Call the appliance guy who doesn't call back right away. I don't want another day of throwing way cheese and milk so I do a web search and call my BIL (general fix-it guy).
Conclude the coils got all iced up during a defrost cycle and so I defrost it over night. Fires up fine. End of problem.
Appliance guy returns my call and I relate the punch line. He is insisting it still needs service and that the problem will reoccur. But he won't describe what the problem is that needs service. Sure, like I fillet 34 salmon and stuff the freezer full every day of the year?! My understanding is that one big load like that is enough to put it over the edge and that a good defrosting is the fix.
Time will tell but it sounds like bull to me. Just trying to do a service call when one is not needed. So would he have found something wrong and some parts to sell me if he had come?
Better fix would be to dry ice some of those fillets and send them down here. Don't want you loading up that freezer too much.
David:
Check your defrost timer, I've had 2 of those go out in the last 40 years. A manual defrost works, but then the ice will build up and stop the circulation fan that routes cold air to the fridge.
check to see if the defrost heater is okay.. It may go into defrost cycle just fine but if the heating element is toast...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
I've replaced both the timer and heater on different occasions. Seems to me that the heaters went bad a bit more often than the timer. Not expensive. Sort of a pain to replace because you need to take apart the freezer compartment. Timer is easy. It was on the back for all the ones I replaced. If I recall correctly, both were in the $30 price range or thereabouts. The timer can usually be rotated by a screwdriver from the back. Pull off the cover plate. (with the fridge unplugged) check the timer switch with an ohm meter to make sure its making contact when the cam hits it. One side of the switch should show zero ohms to one prong on the power cord. The other side of the switch goes to the heater. Through the heater and then to the other prong of the power cord. With the timer switch off, measure from the other switch contact to the other power prong. If it does not read around 5 or 10 ohms, the heater is bad. The heater was basically a long skinny light bulb on all the ones I fixed.
"Check your defrost timer, I've had 2 of those go out in the last 40 years. A manual defrost works, but then the ice will build up and stop the circulation fan that routes cold air to the fridge"
Junkhound, you were right. The manual defrost fixed it for a few days but then the fridge drifted up in temp. It was the defrost timer.
Why is a defrost timer $58? When a lamp timer (same thing, right? - switch something on 3 times a day) is $8.95?
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
David, I'm surprised, as clever as you are, why you didn't just rewire/install a lamp timer if you didn't have a spare defrost timer!
As to the $58, it's 'cause you waited till you needed it to buy and the parts store had you by the bbbbs! Can't recall where mine are from but have 2 or 3 on standby that were probably 50 cents each surplus, pretty generic.
"but have 2 or 3 on standby that were probably 50 cents each surplus"
Hence, your handle, Junkhound!
-David
can he not recall :
where they are from
or
where they are?
It is not limited to just HVAC forums.
A while back, some kind soul here directed me to a legal site. You know, a place where you can go and ask simple questions and get simple answers, right ?
Wrong.
Almost every post I read had wisecrack and insulting answers.
To be fair, I didn't give up after just a couple. I read more than a hundred posts on that site, and only two of the questioners were given any sort of real answer. Without spite or insult coming from someone.
The vast majority of responses were simply spite, and insult. The rest, but for those two, were given vauge answers that really didn't mean anything, and they were told they should see a lawyer. ...DUH. THEN showered with spite and insults.
"Criticism without instruction is little more than abuse." D.Sweet
That's a real funny coincidence as I think I visited the same site once! What a bunch of scary goofballs. Those lawyers are a low bunch in my opinion. I remember one guy (not sure of his handle) that saw to it as his duty to answer every single question posted with some wisecrack comment. And I mean probably 30 or 40 posts a day he would do this to. Must have had a lot of time on his hands.
YES !!
The same guy is still there. Still doing his thing.
You know, a wisecrack isn't so bad by itself. But all of his seem to be derogatory wisecracks.
"Criticism without instruction is little more than abuse." D.Sweet
To be fair, there are frequent wisecracks on this site, but for the most part they are thrown in fun, not mean spirited. And unless the question is about hanging cabinets with sheetrock screws, somebody always gives a valid answer.
The John Bridge tile site has some pretty good members, and they seem to be helpful.
The unofficial official Chief Architect site also gets good answers, but many of them seem to be on ego trips. next to the posters name there is a short profile. like we have, but it's always visible. It's amazing the number of posters there who call themselves Master Designer or similar.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
"To be fair, there are frequent wisecracks on this site, but for the most part they are thrown in fun, not mean spirited."
Exactly so.
That's why I made the distinction about the derogitory type.
: )
"Criticism without instruction is little more than abuse." D.Sweet
So Luka, where is this site, anyways? I have a pretty good list of really stupid questions to ask 'em.
The place is called free advice.
And I guess you get what you paid for.
: )
http://forum.freeadvice.com/
"Criticism without instruction is little more than abuse." D.Sweet
Sheetrock screws? You guys hang cabs with SHEETROCK SCREWS???
:-)
Sheetrock screws? You guys hang cabs with SHEETROCK SCREWS??? You got a problem with that? The cabinets are touching sheetrock, and the screws go through the sheetrock ... what else would you suggest?
I have done some demo and found cabinets over the potty hung with 2 or 3 large finishing nails. Also some kitchen cabs now that I think about it.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Nah...no problem at all...I was thinkin' it might be overkill unless there was gonna be some really heavy stuff put up there...LOL!
I, too, have unfortunately seen nailed up cabinets in a few places...
it does make them easier to take off....
Just make sure you try to hit a stud.
If not then you can just use a larger dia screw or angle the screw downwards a bit."sobriety is the root cause of dementia.", rez,2004
"Geodesics have an infinite proliferation of possible branches, at the whim of subatomic indeterminism.",Jack Williamson, The Legion of Time
You guyz been watching Bob Vila again?
Joe H
Stud or not - only the smallest of men screw in cabinets through sheet rock.
<G>Kevin Halliburton
"The Greek comic poets, also, divided their plays into parts by introducing a choral song, ... they relived the actor's speeches by such intermissions." Vitruvious, (Book V)
A year or so back one of those judge shows were on in the background when my attention was captured by some carpenter guy being bought before the judge because of faulty kitchen cabinet installation.
I had to leave before the verdict but these ladies were accusing him of fraudulent practice because a cabinet fell when they had stacked a bunch of dishes in it.
Must have been many stacks of that heavy truckstop type plateware. lol
I was tempted to think of drywall screws as the culprit."sobriety is the root cause of dementia.", rez,2004
"Geodesics have an infinite proliferation of possible branches, at the whim of subatomic indeterminism.",Jack Williamson, The Legion of Time
I use to install el cheapo cabinets in low income HUD apartments. Can't tell you how many times the whole backs of those things would pull loose. And then there was the climb factor. Short occupant would use an open base cabinet as a four inch step to reach something in the wall cabs. Face rails would pop off and the bottoms break.
Of course the occupants were always gratefull for the repairs, and never concerned about thier broken dishes :)
Dave
it's amazing how many people don't relaize that you use drywall screws for hanging cabinets, and not sheetrock screws. one of the things i like about this site and learning those nuances.
ouch! hey!_____________________________
bobl Volo, non valeo
Oh yeah! I have learned lots of things here. I figure I am at least as knowledgable as the average HD aisle-walker by now, and maybe even a few of the supervisors! Last week I was in the local orange box and when their guy asked if he could "help" me he looked at me funny-like when I started laughing! (Might have been the fact that he looked all of sixteen...not that some young guys are not knowledgable, but damned few who gravitate to HD seem to be! Say!... I'll bet he DID know exactly what time his next break was, though! :-)
Yeah that is exactly the forum I was talking about. Go to the real estate law section and read his comments to posts. I believe his handle is Homeguru or something similar. While I am on the subject of forums, does anybody have an address for a good residential electrical or plumbing forum? Thanks in advance!
doityourself.com
http://www.plbg.com
-- J.S.
Best electrical forum:www.elec.-toolbox.com
Not taking up for the guys at HVAC talk,( I don't care for them either) but what are the requirements in your states for purchasing HVAC equipment?
I have the EPA recovery certifcations, but can not buy equipment in KY. There are ways around that, but legally the suppliers are suppose to require a Masters HVAC license number to sell any equipment (state requlates). Repair parts don't seem to be coverd by the regulation, but systems are.
I think many of the state regs concerning who can buy refrigeration equipment were lobbied into existance by trade associations, much like the Home Builders Association lobbies for regs that suite thier agenda. What then happens is that many of the trade people think," Jeeze, I must be special, there are state regulation that prove I am." The same thing occurs to some extent with electricians and plumbers because of thier licenseing requirements.
The smart remarks at hvactalk seem to be getting worse imo because it is allowed too. The forum moderator doesn't stop it, and the attitude seems to be contagiouse(sp). We are fortunate here, not only b/c of our past and present moderators, but the participants here pretty much self police.
Dave
Agree-
the anti DIY
or anti homeowner remarks are much worse in the last 6 months.
I believe there is not a "." after elec.
http://www.elec-toolbox.com
that elec. website is a great find! The tips of the trade section is very good! Your right about the address though. It's http://www.elec-toolbox.com/ Thanks to whoever it was that offered it!
They are a pi$$y bunch there but I have learned a ton from them.Sometimes it's harder there to tell who is BS'ing and who actually knows their stuff.It's kind of funny that if you look at who the DIY bashers are,and then go to the photo section,the bashers are always the ones that put the electrical disconnect behind the AC condensing unit,a violation of the 3' clearance rule that every electrical inspector would red flag them on.
Edited 7/15/2004 5:49 pm ET by IBEW Barry
I have been involved in the HVAC industry for over 15 years, as a designer, an enigineer, inspector, troubleshooter, and in wholesale distribution. I have seen literally hundreds of installations by organized labor types, very few of which, I could remotely consider professionals. Like all communist organizations, the labor unior that includes the "tinners" is not in existence for the betterment of the industry or the open exhange of ideas. "Protection of our own" is, as far as I have observed, their sole purpose in life.
There are some legitimate reasons that refrigeration systems be approached with caution, but the furnaces, duct and fittings, low pressure boilers, and just about everything else in the residential realm of HVAC is and should be sold as if it is similar in skill/danger level of a gas water heater.
I beleive that the DIY homeowner, willing to tackle the challenge of installation of a forced air system, for instance, is more than capable of matching or exceeding the quailty avilable from the local hack, at a fraction of the cost.
I'm a "Pro" member at H-Talk and couldn't agree more with the OP... :-/ ..and often wonder why they even have the "Ask our Pro" sub-forum. The forum provides far more value to technicians than DIY'ers.
Anyone seriously interested in doing his own hvac work is better served poking around the net for a hvac DIY forum. I've seen a few H-Talk member usernames on DIY forums... :-}
I will say this about DIY assistance...
I have on a few occasions been able to diagnose a situation over the phone for someone and they "fixed" the problem. And I will occasionally sell someone a part, maybe a contactor or run capacitor, that an HO had enough wherewithal to diagnose (or guess) as faulty.
But an attempt to help someone diagnose a general symptom like, "..the outdoor unit isn't running...", requires a whole lot of "wherewithal" on the HO's behalf. Faulty contactors and capacitors ARE a common and frequent explanation for the symptom, but there is still some hvac expertise necessary to confirm either. And if the problem is NOT either of those, diagnosing the issue can sometimes challenge an hvac TECH. :-)
Once you get beyond the very simple fault situations, diagnostics requires electrical test tools, refrigeration system analyzer tools and quite a bit of knowledge of equipment design and operation.
I have no "philosophical" problems with DIY...I never call an electrician or plumber to fix my electrical or plumbing problems. I don't take my vehicles to a mechanic to replace the disc brake pads or a water pump. I recently re-roofed my garage...
But I do have my wherewithal boundaries...As Dirty Harry said, "A man has to know his limitations."
I understand why people could get upset when interacting on the HVAC-TALK forum. Some of the characters on the forum can be rude. I am a pro member on the forum, and I get rude responses to legitimate questions or responses that are unrelated to my post once in a while.
The reason, I believe, they are being rude to non members is because people do not read the rules before making posts. Pro-members are NOT allowed to provide any DIY help, instructions, or pricing on the forum. Pro-Members can have their account closed, and they can be banned. Answering any other question that is not related to DIY is permitted.
This is from the Owners Assistance Rules. “NOTE: No pricing allowed, and no links to DIY or online sales sites allowed."
You may find someone that will discuss things with you, but that should be done with private messages or even better by email. Also, sometimes there are non-pro members giving advice on the forum. Just check to see if the person giving the info has a Pro indication near their handle. It is a great forum for HVAC professionals without a doubt. I’ve been a member since 2007.
Is that forum experiencing the spam posts and Artificial Intelligent (?) posts that this forum has been seeing?
I’d be interested in hearing if this is becoming common place for construction forums.
Thanks.
It appears you're referring to the "HVAC-Talk" forums, a platform dedicated to discussions about heating, ventilation, and air conditioning (HVAC) topics. If you're seeking information or answers from Wisecrack, a YouTube channel and digital media company known for its educational and comedic content, it's important to note that Wisecrack's expertise primarily lies in philosophy, culture, and media analysis, rather than HVAC systems. For detailed discussions and expert advice on HVAC-related matters, the HVAC-Talk forums are likely a more specialized resource.
And to whom Are you asking the question?
From the 2004 post or something a bit more recent?
Totally agree, it's frustrating when helpful questions are met with attitude instead of support. This forum has been a great space for genuine advice—really appreciate the positive vibe here.