Here’s a kick in the teeth: After 3 months of design, cabinet selection by my client, and discussions between myself (general & designer), cabinet salesman and clients, they pick a beautiful mission-style in cherry and I sign all the order sheets. Next day, I get a fax called a “wood / finish awareness form” which I am required to sign before the order is accepted. It states that I have been informed of all the characteristics of woods and finishes and that I agree to not hold the cabinet manufacturer (Dura Supreme) or the dealer responsible for “natural characteristics” which are “not acceptable”.
If I DON’T sign this, my project will be toast, as I will have lost all credibility with my client. If I do, I feel like I am giving up rights as a consumer. I feel like I am under duress and have no choice but to accept these unacceptable terms. What gives? I don’t do that many kitchens, but I have never seen this form before. Anyone care to comment?
Replies
Sounds pretty outrageous to me, but I'm sure they got tired of eating cabinets becuase someone didn't like the figure of the grain. Still, how do you distinguish between that and a cabinet door with a big ole knot in it? I'd have a frank conversation with them, and if necessary the client. There are plenty of good cabinet companies out there... I don't see it as a reflection on you with your client as long as you communicate it well. If anything I'd think they'd be glad you were looking out for them.
Good luck!
PaulB
Have you used this mfg before? Have you used their cherry cabs before. My guess is that they may use a lot of sapwwod in their cherry and have had issues in the past. While sapwood isn't considered a defect in cherry, if you select a natural finish the sapwood can be very pronounced, especially if no effort was given to grain matching.
This may just be a standard form for that mfg. If that's the case the client should have been made aware of it before now. I would not sign it without making your client aware of it. If the cabs are delivered and they aren't happy with them and they aren't aware that you signed this you will really be left with a problem.
Some good points here. I have never used this manufacturer's cabinets before, but have dealt with this salesman for years, and we are friends as well as business associates. I don't hold him responsible, but am in a bad position, as I have to move on the order. (six weeks to delivery, full kitchen rehab complete in time for thanksgiving dinner). The fact is, they may very well be trying to cover for poor wood selection and lack of grain-matching & other appearance defects.
Like Tom said ........but on the other side of the coin I built a kitchen once from hand picked pure heartwood cherry and the guy got pizzed cause a couple doors had marks in them. Natural cherry has that characteristic I told him. he bitched until I made him new ones.. If they are custom built specifically tell your salesman you want only heartwood if not find out their policy on using sap wood/heart wood combined......(it is way ugly, even if they try to stain and match)They may be a very good company......maybe not. The contract is just butt covering. Make sure you know what your doing before you commit. (I wouldn't trust a salesman or a brochure I'd want to see and feel the product)
peace.......a great excuse to start a war.
Yup, have dealt with folks like that, and I address quality issues in my contract to them. I guess my main issue is with the timing of the form's presentation to me (last night via fax...after the deal was done). I don't want to go back to my clients now and tell them they have to accept terms they weren't aware of before they handed me full payment for their cabinetry. I emailed the salesman and will hold his feet to the fire.
Two things:The cabinet Co. already signed the contract.If it turns out you have to waiver final approval of the cabinets, take the faxed form to your clients, explain all your issues, and ask them if they will sign it. That gets you out of the position of having to accept and your clients not having to.SamT
Have you seen samples of the cabinets they have selected in a show room preferably or at least in a full color catalog?
I understand your apprehensive, and I have a story that would not have ended well if I had signed a similar document from Merillat, BTW, I'll insert my "Never By Merillat" cabinets line here....
Anyway, if your dealer is your friend ask him to tell you how many, if any, problems he has had in the past with this particular cabinet company.
I fully understand why the cabinet maker is asking for the sign off. Cherry can have a fair difference in color and if the cabinet manufacture is putting a light or no stain finish on it will be apparent. That said most cherry cabinets I've seen have some natural variation and Hickory is usually worse.
Bottom line, if a cabinet comes in and the customers truly hate it, it's good business for you to replace it and keep them happy while you deal with the cabinet company separately. On the other hand if the whole order comes in and looks bad it's a different issue.
What are the payment terms? Personally I would not give them more then 1/2 money until I was able to inspect all the cabinets out of the box. No sense giving up all your leverage.
I would also explain the situation to your customer so they are aware of it but play it down a little, so they are not blindsided if an issue does come up. Maybe explain that both you and them have to sign it. Explain to them, not to worry, if their is a problem you will handle it and not leave them holding the bag.
I want to hear your 'never buy Merrilatt' story.
I used to think Merrilatts were a good value in the low to mid-end market.
Now they suck and the only thing worse than their cabinets is their horrible customer service.
The company I work for had been using Merillat cabinets for over 20 years I believe. About 3-4 years ago we started having minor problems with the quality of the finish. Then a large problem, we ordered probably 15k worth of cabinets for a kitchen in a glazed finish. We had seen a sample door, a sample display, and a photo, none of which looked like what we received.
The colors themselves were correct and looked fine, but the glazing looked horrible. I understand the variation that can occur but it looked like three separate people using three distinctly different techniques and three equally separate types of drugs applied the finish after they had spent to much time huffing fumes. It varied so much it looked like sht. The customer was pissed and so were we. To Merillats credit they did try to replace some of the doors for the cabinets twice before just throwing their hands up in the air, but they could just never get it right.
They offered nothing back in terms of a refund or further replacement. It cost us thousands of dollars in time spent dicking around with them, the rep that came out was rude to both us and our customer. The customer finally decided they just wouldn't pay us the final 5k for the job and the owner of my company decided to let it go.
So we had an otherwise good job go into the tank, had an un-satisfied customer, and our hands were tied. The customer wasn't interested in ripping out the whole kitchen worth of cabinets and going back with something different. In the end I guess signing that paper would not have made a difference anyway.
So after 20 years of support we got the shaft. We used them for a short period of time longer after that and continued to have problems with finish quality. Having doors with rough edges, un-finished surfaces, etc. Speaking of cherry cabinets, we did one kitchen in cherry with them and they shipped two raised panel doors with one of the center pieces of wood looking blond and the adjacent pieces being dark cherry. Merillat didn't want to replace them, but our cabinet dealer ate it and replaced them for us because he even said they looked horrible.
So I switched us over to a different base-line cabinet and now we use Medallion. Medallion cabinets are not constructed the best IMO though the finishes always look good and they provide a good value.
Merillat can kiss my ####.
Edited 9/6/2007 12:03 pm ET by CAGIV
Your comments somewhat echo my experinces. Used to be an OK company, but now they suck, both in quality and customer service.
From the perspective of an employee, and not someone with money on the line:
Our long-term, very reputable cabinet supplier had exactly this kind of form. It was meant for fussy homeowners, and not to absolve the cabinet manufacturer of responsibility if they made a mistake. Some clients have absolutely unreal expectations for how their cabinets should appear.
The form probably won't protect you (much) from a unrealistic client, but then it shouldn't protect the manufacturer if they make a legitimately substandard door. I've seen doors, with a natural finish, in which hickory and white hickory were mixed; the rails and styles looked completely different. No waiver should cover that kind of flaw. It's not satisfactory, and the supplier needs to send replacements.
I'd show your clients the form, educate them a bit about how wood can vary in how it accepts a finish, and then assure them that you'll get after the manufacturer if there are real defects.
Co. I work for copies the same form (more or less) that you speak of and the client signs it too.
SOP from where I am.
It's called CYA
[email protected]
You could ask for some referrals to see what "grade" their supplied cabinets are before you sign anything. Make sure you ask for cherry. Also ask the referrals if they had to use the customer service.
This should not be a problem, if it is, then I would move on. What's your feel on the customers demeanor?
what Sam and CAG said.
just show it to the customer and explain yer misgivings.
it's their cab's ... ball is in their court.
doubt you'd lose a client by being honest and letting them know yer not feeling 100% about signing away their rights to return a product.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Appreciate your reply. It's kind of a done deal now... clients are aware of the form and are OK with it.
Thanks,
Nick Chirikos
Housewright Design-Build Ltd.
This was very common, particularly in the 80's when dark cherry was in style. Customers would complain that the color was not uniform. They wanted it to be homogenous and boards in a panel glue up would often vary noticeably. With cherry, there is the issue of color difference between sap wood and heart wood as well as defects like sap pockets and mineral streaks. The cabinet company wants you to acknowledge that you understand there may be visible color differences due to the species. They don't want you sending back a door because one board in the glue up stands out, due to color difference.
For a manufacturer, it's not feasible to select boards with a consistent color, trim off all the lighter colored parts and eliminate any natural defects. Better custom shops will put in the effort to select their stock carefully, but they essentially do one job at a time. Manufacturers are a high production assembly line. Mechanics on the line often try to match but they may be gluing up with rough faces and they also have to work with what they are handed. If you will be bothered by paneled doors that obviously show the individual boards, don't use stained cherry. They do use toners and other finishing techniques to reduce the variations but short of a heavy bodied opaque paint, cherry is cherry.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match