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Wood Floor Installation- 3 questions

| Posted in General Discussion on February 6, 2003 04:59am

I’m planning on putting a new maple floor in my kitchen.  Currently there’s vinyl flooring glued to a flakeboard subfloor.  I’d be interested in recommendations about:

1.  Can the the wood strips be installed over the current subfloor?  I’ve heard that flakeboard is not a good subfloor for holding nails/screws/etc., and that a plywood subfloor should be used.  What do you think? 

2.  Prefinished boards vs. unfinished.  Pro’s and cons of each?

3.  Specific recommendations for product – natural  maple color?  The kitchen is currently 3 inches lower than the rest of the ground floor (9 foot ceiling), so I’d like to reduce this height difference as well.

The floor will be professionally installed in either case.  This will be part of a new kitchen, right down to new sheetrock ceiling and walls.   (The old one will be gutted, so there will be plenty of mess!) 

Thanks very much.

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  1. johnhardy | Feb 06, 2003 07:38pm | #1

    Well, I'll give you my own opinions.

    1. I'd never use flakeboard in a kitchen area because of the possibliity of water. I also don't think it makes a good subfloor for hardwood. And, lastly, you'll have part of the flakeboard come up when you remove the vinyl. Given all of the above I'd remove the flakeboard and use a proper plywood subfloor.

    2. I absolutely hate the prefinished floors. I say this even though I installed prefinished floors in my current home. We did this because of time and because we were not in the mood to put up with the extra dust from sanding. The reason I hate prefinished floors? they have a micro-bevel, and that's "distracting". But even more to the point, if you get down and look at a prefinished floor up close, you will see that the boards are not all at the same height. They're slightly off, and when light from a setting sun comes in the window it creates shadow lines that emphasize the problem. Putting down a proper hardwood floor (solid stock), sanding it, and then putting on a finish, removes all of this concern.

    3. I don't like the "composite" hardwood floors. The ones that look like plywood. I say that because they cannot be refinished as often as true hardwood. As to wood, that is very subjective. My favorite is quarter sawn white oak, mostly because it's elegant and was used in many of the older homes that I love. My own preference is to have a finish that is light and lets the beauty of the wood shine. This also doesn't darken a room. Maply would be an excellent choice depending on your style, furnishings, and cabinetry. All can work well together ... or not work well together. I don't have enough information here to really comment more.

    John

    1. Frankie | Feb 06, 2003 08:17pm | #2

      Sounds as though you are in a Brownstone/ Townhouse. I do a lot of work in NYC and bet you will find that your joist are pretty thick - 2" - 3". Locate the joists using a stud finder or holesaw and wire hanger. Once these are marked and since you WANT to raise the floor height, screw down 3/4" plywood underlayment and install the 3/4" hardwood floor on top. No need to remove the existing flooring.

      Using unfinished wood is best (for reasons stated in johnhardy's post). For small areas (less than 100 sqft) you will be paying a premium to have it sanded and poly'd. Plus maple is VERY hard and difficult to sand - Cha-ching!

      Be sure to install the flooring under the cabinets too. Also, sand and finish before you install the new cabinets. Then (this is the tough part) wait a week before you let the cabinet installer loose on the Kitchen floor. The floor should of course be protected.

      I am guessing that you are doing a complete Kitchen renov. Are you?

  2. andybuildz | Feb 06, 2003 11:00pm | #3

    Personally I like unfinished flooring. Not a big fan of pre finished.

    I've installed scores of both on jobs and only unfinished floors on my own cribs, cause thats my preference. Sanding a floor weather its oak or maple or pine still takes three sandings and in my opinion three coats of poly or moisture cure after the stain, if in fact you do use stain.

    I would lay 3/4" T&G ply over what you have now being that height isnt an issue. NAiling into flakeboard is asking for trouble in a kitchen especially.

    The advice of sanding and finishing the floor before the cabs are in is good but.....I'd ask the sanding guy to come back to last coat the poly "after" the cabs are in and all is said and done.

    I'm on L.I 45 min to NYC and have done quite a few jobs in the city and the costs just in getting material up the freight elevators or three story brownstones if thats the case add quite a bit to the price.....Last Brooklyn gig I did was in a real pretty area off of Flatbush Ave. where I lived as a kid.

    Good luck and be well

                A Tree Grows In Brooklyn (soon to be flooring...lol)

                                                                                   Namaste

                                                                                                 Andy 

    "Attachment is the strongest block to realization"
    http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

    1. Brooklyn | Feb 07, 2003 05:14am | #5

      Sincere thanks, one and all, for your great advice. 

      Yes, this is a complete kitchen renovation...big adventure, big mess and big bucks! I'm definitely avoiding the pre-finished wood products, thanks to everyone' s input. 

      More kitchen-renovation questions to come.  I'll be grateful for your input.

    2. Brooklyn | Feb 07, 2003 05:17am | #6

      Great suggestion about asking sander/finisher back after cab install.  My hair may be gray, or I could be bald, by the time this kitchen project is over. 

      Right now I'm in factfinding phase, planning on starting project April-May. (oh, joy...months with a microwave, paper plates, and Chinese).

  3. beasto | Feb 07, 2003 02:03am | #4

    Do not install over existing subfloor. If height is not a consideration, Glue and screw 3/4 plywood over existing( screw to as many floor joists as you can ). Many people use pre-finished but I think its crap. The joints have a bevel so every seam is glaring.Last winter I installed a natural maple floor in my son's bedroom (solid,finished after install). People say it looks like a piece of furniture. Use staples to fastenl.

  4. FrankB89 | Feb 07, 2003 05:35am | #7

    The points being made here are on target.  You mentioned "natural" maple floor:  Maple is a very good floor material but if you're entertaining the idea of staining it, talk it over with your finisher first.  I've tried to stain Maple (contrary to some advice I got here about three years ago) and it's tough to avoid blotches.  If you do go with maple, stay with a natural finish.  If you want darker, pick another wood species.

    I agree with the post about the micro-bevel on prefinished, although I just saw some samples of bamboo prefinished flooring that was available with or without the micro bevel.

    The reason for the bevel is to protect the finish and edges during handling and installation so I would think that prefinished without the bevel would require very careful handling.

    Also bear in mind that most solid unfinished flooring is usually 3/4" thick and finishing doesn't take all that much off of it.  Most composites are thinner, usually 5/8" down to 1/4".  The thickness factor  has to be taken into account if you're meeting it with tile or carpet, or linoleum or something, and doors may have to be trimmed.

    Jules Quaver for President   2004

    1. Brooklyn | Feb 07, 2003 06:40am | #8

      Thanks for your pointers.  I'm inclined to go with solid natural 3/4" maple flooring.

      1. Floorman | Feb 07, 2003 08:02am | #9

             Do not install the flooring underneath the cabinets. If you have water damage at some point, it gets tough to replace the floor and it can lift your cabinets off the floor creating all kinds of damage. Sand and finish the floor after ALL subs are GONE. They all have the capacity to damage your perfect finish on completion. Only the painter, finish carpenter and carpet installer comes after the floor finishing; baseshoe install and finish.

              Particleboard is used by vinyl installers as a preference over plywood because plywood can have hollow spots that high heels, appliances, etc. can crush the vinyl flooring through.

             The bevels used on prefinished solid flooring are there to hide the fact that the members do not join together level at the surface. That's why we have drum sanders and edgers.

             Maple is actually easier to sand than Oak. "They" say that it is harder than Oak but it does not handle that way, at least not flooring. Even Canadian. Beginning sand on new Oak is 40g for me, and 50g on Maple. GW

        Edited 2/7/2003 12:05:56 AM ET by Greg Warren

        1. Brooklyn | Feb 08, 2003 03:42am | #10

          So you would put plywood subfloor under cabs, but not run floor under cabs?

          Assuming I use 3/4" thick solid maple boards, do you otherwise compensate under the cabs for that height?  I ask b/c I'm tall, and standard counter height is as low as I want to go.

          Thanks much.

          1. Frankie | Feb 08, 2003 08:12am | #11

            1. Try sanding a maple, oak and pine floor. Pine is the softest but gums up the paper. Pain in the butt! Maple is the hardest and is a &itch to sand. You want to start w/ 50 grit, great. But you'll still be there all day and go through tons of paper. Oak is just right, kinda like it wants to be sanded. I have done a lot of each and this discription never varies.

            2. If you sand after cabinet installtion the cabs are going to get dented/ scratched - even if you take the doors off. It will take longer to sand, there will be a lot more edging to do, and there is more chance of getting swirl marks or edger divets. Sanding machines are big and awkward. Like bulls in a china shop. You want to give them as much room to move as you can. Don't forget, the sander cannot get closer than 4-5 inches to the base edge, even when the body is scraping the wall/ cabinet. Then you have the cabinet toe kicks. HAR! HAR! HAR!! Now there's a treat!!!

            3. If you DON'T install flooring under the cabinets, then water is CERTAIN to get under the flooring you DO see, if there is a flood. That's why you are SUPPOSED to install under the cabs. As long as the wood is finished prior to installing the cabs, it is sealed/ protected from most water damage. As for the wet flooring lifting the cabs - I have never seen this. If it does happen, you have bigger problems which this pales to.

            4. I have not installed a countertop at 36" for at least 5 yrs, maybe more. Most are now at 38". These are a lot more user friendly - unless you are under 5'-3".

          2. andybuildz | Feb 12, 2003 05:03pm | #12

            Brooklyn

                 One last bit of advice from me....Use "moisture cure" finish in a kitchen and not poly. It costs more but well worth it

            Be dry

                  Namaste

                             Andy"Attachment is the strongest block to realization"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

  5. ESPEE | Feb 12, 2003 10:28pm | #13

    Here in California the Hardwood flooring is 3/4" thick & is what I like to see used for interior wood flooring.  The one thing that has not been said, is to let the materials acclimates to the house for at least three to four weeks before the installation is begun using solid hardwood material.  Also a moisture barmier should be applied under the hardwood flooring and of course this would be on the top of the plywood sub flooring.     

    Now on the subject of flooring under the cabinets yes and no. The yes is at the locations of the appliances like the dishwasher, refrigerator, free standing range, & trash compactor if used. The cabinets should be set on a plywood footing as was said in a earlier post. But at the same level as the finished floor. Not lower and not any higher.  Why ? because if down the road, a new floor is placed over the old flooring you will still have room to service or replace the built in appliances.   This go's for vinyl flooring as well.  For instance if a new partial board base is placed down building up the floor surface, you will at some time have no room left to remove the appliances or reinstall a new one.      

    Good luck

    Tony

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