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Wood floor Prep.

Pop | Posted in General Discussion on January 9, 2006 06:43am

 Hello,

  My wife and I bought this contemporary, Plank on Beam home two years back, the building was built about 23 years ago. We reside in Rhode Island.  Last fall, my wife pulled up the carpeting from one of the bedrooms upstairs. On top of the planks, which are 1 x 6, pine, stacked three levels high, with the center board standing proud, on one edge, and recessed on the opposite side, resembling tongue and grove planking. The bottom of the planking becomes the finished ceiling, the next level down. Now to get back, on top of it, was nailed down, 4 x 8′ x 5/8″ thick, sheets of fine partical board. In my garage, I  have stacked, 700 square feet of pre finished White Ash, 3/4″ thick. My thinking, is that this partical board should be removed, and plywood of what ever thickness should be laid down, that is the right way.

  Now, what if I nail the Ash flooring right to the planks? The other problem that arise’s, is that the Ash flooring would look better running parallel with the planks! I know when I remove the partical board, I will find some cupping and crowning on various planks. I have thought of having the floor, planks sanded to “clean”, to make the floor flat. Question, will the “sub flooring”, planks, remain flat, now that they have been there for the last 23 years? Will the humidity and dry winter air, cause those planks to continue to move some more, and I would end up with a wash board effect to the finished floor? The 700 square feet of ash, will cover all three bedrooms and hallway up stairs. I will not mind some small deviations in the floor, since the pre finished ash is beveled along its length, I think 1/16″, or less of an inch is tolerable. 

    I am an old fart, now, and I don’t mind cutting up the partical board, and chucking it out the windows, but carring new 1/2″ sheets of plywood up the stairs, well, I am not to keen on that, and that goes for the cartons of Ash as well! Talk to me Please!…….Pop 

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  1. User avater
    JDRHI | Jan 09, 2006 08:49pm | #1

    You already know the answer.....just hopin' maybe someone will suggest "It'll be fine"...aint ya?

    Pull up the particle board....have some 18yo HS kid from town haul the plywood up....and install your flooring on a sound surface. (Might be overkill, but being as you've got that 18 yo doing the lifting, consider 3/4" ply)

    All the best.

    J. D. Reynolds

    Home Improvements

    1. Pop | Jan 11, 2006 02:52pm | #7

         Yes to your answer, and why? Because the subflooring I am dealing with is probably four times thicker than yours, (unless its a concrete slab). Why should I over kill something that is fine the way it is. I am looking to hear from those who found them selves in a similar situtation, or from those who are the experts in this field.................Pop

      1. User avater
        JDRHI | Jan 11, 2006 05:02pm | #9

        My post to you, while serious, was intended in a humorous manner. Your response to me denotes a bit of irritation towards the messenger.

        I suggest overkill in most scenarios. I've seen plenty of instances of "sufficient". Quite often I get phone calls to renovate that which was "sufficient" and to code. The fact that a majority of builders only go so far as sufficient helps keep my business humming along.

        I'm not there (your home) to visually inspect the situation. Three layers of ship lapped 1 x 6 pine? Did I understand correctly that they're all running in the same direction? Is there much splitting and cupping? Is there a chance the manner in which the home is currently heated and cooled may change?

        Plywood is a much more stable substrate than what (I'm picturing) you have now. Obviously someone felt that even particleboard would yeild a better finished product for the rather forgiving carpet.

        Structurally? Yeah....you'll not likely fall through the floor on your way to the bathroom in the middle of the night any time soon.

        Because the subflooring I am dealing with is probably four times thicker than yours...

        Not quite....but "thickness" has little to do with it anyhow.

        Good day.

        J. D. Reynolds

        Home Improvements

        1. Pop | Jan 11, 2006 06:02pm | #10

              Hello JD!'

             The problems with these damn computers is, you can't see my ugly face smilling while answering you questions. Please, NO irritation intended! I really welcome your sugestions. I will just have to get use to your "dry" humor. LOL.

            I am going to have to start to pull up some the the partical board, and take a look see. The planking is what is called, "Glued Laminated" T&G its 2 1/4" thick. When I pull that crap partical board up, I will tell you what I see, or better yet, how about a picture, you know what they say? Believe nothing of what you hear, and only half of what you see! LOL.

            Carpenters, get the most gratification, (as a whole) for the work they do, but on the average, get paid about as much as trash collectors, I read that several years ago. How tragic! I think we both understand, "building to the codes, and no further on spec homes", its how carpenters make the money.  Its gets worse every year. More than ever, I see buildings no older than 20 years old being taken down, and a new building going up to replace them. Old architectural sound and pleasent to look at beach homes leveled for some crap going up, looking good from the outside, but just being built to the minumun code spec. I guess I'm getting to old and remember the materials of 30 to 40 years ago.

            I respect and are open to any suggestions and or criticisms from any one who take the time to answer any of these messages. I do enjoy this forum. So JD, thanks for being up front with me! Looking forward to hearing from you in the future..........Pop

          1. Piffin | Jan 12, 2006 03:30am | #12

            I see now - you have T&G planks that are made up at factory as laminated pieces which were abbout 2-1/4" when laid in, It is possible then that this could have some cupping. I had imagined something a bit different from your first description, that some poor cqarpenter had laid three layers of flooring with lots of fglue in between, essentially a large sheet of three ply plywood formed in place. I remember seeing what you have once before. If you do see cupping when you remove the PBd, then a ply glued and screwed down might be a good idea. I am trying to keep you from having a problem at the top step of the stairs though. The risers must all be withing 1/4" of one another to be safe. Presuming them to be right now, adding 3/4" of plywood wood screw you up but a 3/8" might even things out without cramping things at the stairs. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          2. Pop | Jan 12, 2006 04:05am | #13

                     Mr. Piffin,

              I am so sorry for the vague description of the lamenated planked flooring. I had to think of the right words to describe it. Your information is what I needed to help me to make my the right decision. As you well know, the more information one gets from those of the "Know" the better! You mentioned a  3/16 gap that could appear, is something for me to really think about. If I see where the subfloor is or has been expanding, summer months and contracting, do to dry environment, winter months, the flooring will be installed on a plywood subfloor, or I will run the ash perpendicular to the lamenated planks, after I have sanded the floors to "clean" or sand just to take the high spots off.

                  Again, thank you so much for taking the time and help me to explore the various problems I could be face with.    I just love this net!...............Pop

          3. Piffin | Jan 12, 2006 04:40am | #14

            "I just love this net!"Stay around and keep fishing! We've got farm raised and wild stock both here. And there's no closed season. Anytime you want to wet a hook... 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          4. Pop | Jan 12, 2006 04:51pm | #15

                Good morning Piffin,

               Was that an envite to try my hand at fishing? Ice fishing? Where my buttocks are frozen to the ice? Oh yea, sounds like fun! LOL. Do I get to keep the wormes warm in my mouth? (old punch line to a joke)

            With you last comments on my flooring, I think I will lay down some 3/8 plywood on top of the planking, then run the ash in parallel with the planking, key word, "STABILIZING". But the best, is that the height of the new floor should almost be the same as the old. There should be no change of the step up height from the stairs to the landing.      "Onward, through the Fog" LOL.  Many thanks for your, and the help of others..............Pop

               Next problem, "French Drains", a project for when the ground dries up.

          5. Piffin | Jan 13, 2006 04:37am | #16

            my opinion of french drains?The French build New Orleans, didn't they?'course it depends how you define french drains 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          6. Pop | Jan 13, 2006 06:33am | #17

               Piffin, that was a good one! I will remember that line in other conversations, and maybe I can use it! The French built New Orleans, hence, the name French Drains, damn that was funny! Going to bed with a smile on my face!

              Good night.....................Pop

  2. Piffin | Jan 09, 2006 09:06pm | #2

    trying to be clear on what currently exists -

    You now have - from bottom up
    The beams _ what size and spaciogn or layout and spanning what distance each...?

    Then you have three layers of pine shiplap boards? Any idea how it is fastenbed or whether there is any paper between plies?

    Then you have particle board underlayment followed by carpet.

    The PBd should definitely come up.then the new wood flooring can go down without changing elevation at the stair appreciably.
    I doubt the nex tmost layer down of pine board will cup more now that it has cured all this time, unless perhaps if the beams beneath are 4-6 feet apart and the boarding is only fastened on beams. If that sort of scenario exists, you might need to fasten with scres the three layers of that subfloor.

    You will need to be careful to choose the fasteners for the new floor to not be too long and splinter your cieling below.

     

     

    Welcome to the
    Taunton University of
    Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
     where ...
    Excellence is its own reward!

    1. Pop | Jan 10, 2006 04:22am | #3

         Piffin, thanks for your fast response.

      From the bottom up-  4 x 12 fur beams, at 7 feet on center. Glue Laminated T&G 6 inch wide by 2 1/4" actual thickness, planks. On top of that, 5/8" partical board, and the last layer, carpeting.

          If I lay down 3/4 plywood, followed by the 3/4 Ash, the finished floor gets too high for the hot water baseboard heat. With the planking at 2 1/4" thick, I am not worried about nails coming through the ceiling below. From the inside of a closet down stairs, I can see where the planking was cut through for the four inch waste pipes from the bathroom up stairs. there is no rosin paper, any where. From that closet, I can see the plumbing drops for two bathrooms, and a little of a false wall, between the bathrooms. This has nothing to do with the planked floor, except how I can see the cross sections of the planking.

         I'm thinking that the planks are toenailed to adjacent boards at 30" O.C. and two or three nails to the beams. I will know for sure when I pull up the partical board. The planks are continous span with random lengths, as seen from below. What do you think about having the surface of the planks sanded to "Clean"? If I thought the planks were laminated yellow pine, I just may finish them as they are. But its probably softer wood.

      1. Piffin | Jan 10, 2006 05:18am | #4

        That is definitely unigue, but I see no reason to add 3/4" ply with the existing boards laminated together. Just take up the PBd and lay the new wood flooring with either paper or glue under it. 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        1. Pop | Jan 10, 2006 03:55pm | #5

            What do you think about nailing the Ash in "Parallel" with the planking? I know its not good practice, any kind of layering should be done perpendicular to the layer below...........................Pop

          1. Piffin | Jan 11, 2006 04:35am | #6

            There are two reasons for that general rule. neither seem to apply to this case, since the way it is preped so far has already broken most of the rules. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          2. Pop | Jan 11, 2006 03:33pm | #8

               I am not sure what you mean, by "Broken Rules".  After I did the blue prints for the addition, garage/shop, and had questions about a beam to support the center of a shed roof (a span of 24') and also a loft, the building inspector, after looking at the plans, said that our home was designed and lived in by a prominent architect, who retired at this home, and be came ill before it was finished, hence, the partical board, and a few other features, that are ok, but not what I would expect from an architect, and this comment pertains to finish work, not structurly (he now lives in Florida). And the building inspector wanted the seal of the approval on my plans from another architect, before I could get the building permit for the garage/shop. This new, architect, put my plans into his CAD CAM, or what ever they do, to produce something that looked more professional, with the use of a steel "I" beam, and his seal. Then he taged me with a bill of 1700 clams! You know, I did all the damn work! But as it turns out, the building inspector from my little town, knew the architect, who, come to find out from the inspector, lived down the road from me a few miles. Every thing from then on moved as smooth as silk. So, as for broken rules, would you explain yourself, and I am very interested in your opinion. I was told by the architect who did the garage blue print, that this style home was very new, and  popular,  while he was still in college, as it is still enjoying some popularity today, but a little more costly to consturct. Today, its a large double floored square box with a truss roof, to keep the cost down as much as possible..............Pop

          3. Piffin | Jan 12, 2006 03:22am | #11

            that was more of a gerneric term for a-typical is all. Standard modern homebuilding would use joiosts at 16" OC and 3/4" sheathing subfloor.When you do things "differently" as with the 7'OC joist beams and the laminated decking ( It is more common in timber and log homes to use joist beams at 4' oC and 2x6 T&G decking) you then have to do the engineering yourself, as you have done, essentially writing your own rules. Nothiong wrong whatsoever with itBut the comment was more in reference to your Q about which way to run the new hardwood flooring. I'll adress that in more detail - and i'm sorry to have put you on the defensive here with my use of the language before by not having elaborated.typiocally in new construction, we use 3/4" OSB, Advantec, or plywood for the subfloor, over joists that are 16" OC. This is pretty bulletproof, so you can run the hardwood either direction without fear of deflection. an earlier gerneration used boards for the subfloortho. These could cup and shrink. If the finish floor was laid on them in the same direction of grain, the shrinklage would show inthe finish. I can think of quite a number of homes with floors laid that way. Every three or four rows of flooring stays tight together as a group and then there is a 3/16" gap, repeated endlessly across the house. When the subfloor was laid diagonally or the finish flooring was laid perpendicular to it, no such problem occours.. Thus the rul;e that you consider the subfloor direction when you lay the finish, but your subfloor is totally non-typical, so the rule does not apply.Same with whether to apply the finish perpendicular to joists. Your joists are so far apart that there will be joints in that span anyway a,d all the strength of your floor is in the laminated subfloor. Finally some timews subfloors can be expected to cup or crown in the length of the boards, but since yours is glued to previous layers, there is little chance of it cupping, especially given that it has had plenty of time to cure and stabilize in position.ASo yuou could run the flooring either direction. I generally porefer to run it in the same direction as the majority of the light flow into the room, easy to figuire if you have a long room with windows only at one end, but harder if you have two or three window walls. 

             

            Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

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