You’ve always seen the advice that before you put down a wood floor you are supposed to keep it in your house for a period of time in order to acclimate to the temperature and humidity.
Anyone have any experience on how vital that advice is?
we’re renovating a condo that currently doesn’t have heat (we’re not living there now). It doesn’t have heat as we’re in the process of updating the heating system, but it won’t be completed for another month. I’d really like to take this gap in the project to get a new wood floor down, but I’m concerned about the temperature issue.
Because it is a condo, it never really gets below 50 in the place – but that’s obviously below the temperature the wood will normally be at. I’d hate to see the wood swell up after we turn the heat on and buckle everywhere – but am I being paranoid?
Alternatively, I could just keep it at my house until we install it. At least it would be warm up until installaiton.
Replies
Anyone have any experience on how vital that advice is?
absolutly vital! wait for the heat to be up and running.
Geoff
Nathar,
Well you have it wrong.. but you are headed in the right direction.
You see tempurature doesn't mean anything to wood.. wood isn't affected by tempurature at all. Wood is only affected by moisture.. Dry wood shrinks wet wood swells. Now warm air tends to dry things out.
Damp air commonly found in warehouses will make wood swell and if you bring wood indoors exposed to warm dry air for a while some of the moisture will escape..
To be fair a stack of wood will dry out at the edges and not in the middle.
Here we go again there will be blood in the streets.Temperature may not affect wood as much as humidity, BUT temperature sure does have an effect on humidity. Coming from the tri- state area NYC we have a saying the three H's Hot Hazy and Humid. Wait till the Heat is on. Please do not ask if rosin or felt should be used a riot may ensue.Wallyo
Edited 3/9/2008 1:15 am ET by wallyo
Wallyo.
Wood does not shrink or swell with temp.. it shrinks or swells with humidity, moisture..
A board 100 degrees will be just as wide as a board 50 degrees if they both have the same moisture content!
FrechyAs Sphere and I have pointed out temperature effects humidity period. That is why you never hear CHH (COLD HAZY AND HUMID) and you hear HHH or the three H's ( HOT HAZY HUMID).
Steam showers are hot and they are humid.It would be better to have the heat on and install the floor then to have it off. Installing it under climate controlled conditions is always better, that is all. What happens at night when temp can cycle down.Why do museums go to great lengths to control temperature and humidity, Next time you are at one note the recorders they have, they record temp and humidity they are worried about both.Wallyo
We're beating a dead horse. The confusion is rampant.
Frenchy KNOWS he is technically correct..temp does not affect wood movement( much) but the ability to hold and disperse h2o IS related to the hydroscopic nature of the material..and being as hazy hot humid is "fatter" than Clear cold and dry..wood will behave accordingly.
A sinus headache is a perfect example of density, air is holding h2o..lower pressure ( below 14 psi) allows our internal pumps to elevate the pressure to the max the cappilarry sys. can handle, because the lack of density in the surrounding atmosphere can support more "Space". That expansion of our selves HURTS. By exerting pressure on nerve bundles and nuerons.
Cold/hot//?? Nahh..ability to "HOLD" is the problem..a pregnant atmosphere cannot contain the fluid pressure we can generate..same with wood..it all has to go somewhere.
Thermodynamics 101, two things cannot occupy the same space at the same time..so..Humidity displaces stability. LOL..there's a point to ponder!Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
why not ask the rosin or felt question???
go with felt...
way more better...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
You will receive the wrath of Frenchy.Wallyo
that's cool...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I warned you, if anything happens don't blame me.Wallyo
thanks...
let the heat begin...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I know you are dyslexic, so I'll clear up what you posted.
DRY wood WILL swell, Wet wood WILL shrink after being in change.
Warm air does NOT make things "dry out" . matter of fact Warm air can hold MORE moisture than COLD air.
I know ya mean well Frenchy, but the way that ya said it is wrong.
carry on..BTW, did I ever F-U a shellac finish..yup..sprayed a few doors with Seal-cote unwaxed..too cold, too thick, too heavy..
So Iam not claiming to be the best, just honestly pointing out errors.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
SphereYou said it more to the point then what I was trying to convey.THanksWallyo
Shere,
Tempurature does not affect wood period .. Moisture does! period!
Tell that to a 32' tall Organ Pipe full of cold air Vs Warm air..IT DOES AFFECT WOOD'S REACTION..due too the fact, that WARM AIR can and WILL hold MORE ..H2O, which is HEAVIER than DRY air. There is a slip stream of air ( at density=D, x Pressure=P,x volume=V) that needs to happen to vibrate at frequency.
Christ Frenchy, you flew..yu know..sopping wet air is dense and lift is reduced by drag . A s you get higher at 30K, 40K the air is dry and COLD..THIN.
Watch the meat ball in the tropics..yer fast and hard, or slow and low.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Sphere,
You really do have difficulty reading don't you? What you are saying is correct as far as you take it.. but Please go back and reread. Temps don't affect wood swelling.. moisture does.
Frenchy,You are both right. Moisture content effects wood. Temperature effects the RH of the air, which in turn effects the moisture content of the wood, which in turn effects the expansion or contraction of the wood.Does anyone have a source for the chart that shows the changes in atmospheric RH relative to temperature? ie: If the RH is 45% and the room is at 50 degrees, then you raise the temp to 70 degrees, the RH will now be ?? lower because 70 degree air can hold more moisture.Steve
mmoogie,I found the chart (psychrometric chart) and found something else too...an online calculator where you can plug in any two known variables and your elevation above sea level, and it'll calculate all the other variable you could want...http://www.uigi.com/WebPsycH.htmlNow if I could just find a chart that showed the expansion co-efficient for various species of lumber at various moisture contents, and what the the Equilibrium Moisture Content of a given species will be when under what given atmospheric conditions...mmoogie
put down really cold or frozen wood some time and see what happens...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Why would you do that?
Cold/frozen wood? You are slipping away.
Gunner is right. You ain't.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
I've got another go-round on the same subject here:http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=101978.1if anyone is interested in voicing their opinion.SteveEdited 3/9/2008 6:43 pm by mmoogie
Edited 3/9/2008 6:44 pm by mmoogie
Steve
If you hit that link that you posted you'll be going around in circles. Sorta like this thread!
Doug
Oops. fixed.
hey, ain't merc, just for due diligence, fess up huh..frozen floor?
Show your work or expound please..we'd love to see your examples of how an IMERC does that.
I got called out for calling you on a blatent lie and got a time out due to you..and I'll do it again..you have no credence here.
I am sorry that I felt akin to you at first, and have had the rude awakening that you are a manipulative farce and have been pulling wool .Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"Success is not spontaneous combustion, you have to set yourself on Fire"
Nathar,
I have first hand experience with laying down solid woods. As the other posters said, temperature doesn't make a difference--it's the moisture content of the wood. Raising the temperature in a dwelling in winter will tend to dry out the wood--this is especially true in dwellings that have forced air systems without a humidifier. Wood will expand in the summer, as the moisture content of the air will increase.
I laid down a solid wood floor on the first floor of a house heated with forced hot water through radiators. There were two rooms, which I did one at a time. In the first room, I waited two weeks for the moisture content to reduce to the ambient levels in the house, and there were no problems at all. In the second room, I used the same wood, but didn't wait. That is, I laid down the floor a day or so after the wood was delivered. Both floors were secretly nailed to a sub-floor. In the second room, not only did gaps appear, but the shrinkage was so great that the floor actually tore apart in one place! So you're not being paranoid about waiting.
What to do? Get a wood moisture meter and wait until the flooring dries to the level that's appropriate for the species of wood (maple, oak, etc.) or of you're getting the wood from a manufacturer, seek guidance from the instructions or call the manufacturer.
Finally, leave a small gap (about 1/4" or so) between the flooring and the wall to allow for wood movement--even if you're laying down manufactured flooring, including floating floors. You can cover this gap with shoes attached to the baseboards.
Good luck.
Nathar.
Wonky kness has it right! I might add one tiny bit to his comments.. Wood doesn't expand or contract lengthwise.. only width wise. So the gap you leave doesn't have to be on the ends only widthwise..
(That might provide a solution if you ever need to abutt something and can't leave a gap)...
Yes, that's right about wood--it expands across the grain. I realized that I had it a little wrong right after I hit the "post" button... Thanks.
Wood does change length along the grain but the change is much smaller than across it.
What you are really trying to do by acclimatizing your flooring is to anticipate the humidity that the floor will experience in the finished house, and get the moisture content of the wood to that same level.
In most cases this involves drying, but I imagine in very humid regions such as parts of the American South it might be allowing the wood to take on moisture. An added complication is that in many places the ambient moisture content of the air varies from season to season. The humidity level in a house in say Montreal during the winter when central heating is on, is very different from the muggy summers. This means that the floor will expand and contract over the year, and it is probably best to lay the floor with a moisture content between the two conditions.
Acclimatizing a floor simply by leaving it in a house while it is being built to adapt to the conditions is a #### shoot. The construction materials hold hundreds of gallons of water and the house dissipates this over time. Unless you are planning on laying the floor months after completion, you are better off to find out what level of moisture the species of wood should be for your location and plan on drying the flooring to that level.
The question is a plain simple one should he wait till the heat is on and there is climate control or install it now with out climate control (ie Heat ).Answer in a few words only please, there I even said please, Frenchy to you I say Pretty Please with Sugar on Top or Splendia what ever is your choice.I SAY WAIT!Wallyo
I'm putting down 3/4" Jatoba Brazilian Cherry flooring, solid. It will be going into a home in the NorthEast, with forced hot air heating (but with a humidifier). What should the moisture content of the wood be when it goes in?
www.woodfloorsonline.com/techtalk/woodwater1.html
This link has a much better description of wood flooring and moisture than I managed. I would venture to say in your situation the dryer the better.
wait...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'm keepin my nose out of this fracas but I'll give you a quote out of my book which is "U.S. Forest Products Laboratory" Wood Handbook: Wood as an engineering material.
Quote "[1] Specify flooring manufactured according to association rules and sold by dealers that protect it properly during storage and delivery;
[2] Do not allow the flooring to be delivered before the masonry and plastering are completed and fully dry, unless a dry storage space is available;
[3] Have the heating plant installed before the flooring is delivered;
[4] Break open the flooring bundles and expose all sides of the flooring to the atmosphere inside the structure;
[5] Close up the house at night and raise the temperature about 15*F. above the outdoor temperature for about 3 days before laying the floor;
[6] If the house is not occupied immediately after the floor is laid, keep the house closed at night or during damp weather and supply some heat if necessary".
PS Your other question is also answered in this book and for your area the answer is 8 percent.
Mesic Good work on your part. That sums it up real well.Thanks Wallyo