Any flooring experts out there? I was the gc on a new home built last year. We bought 3″ maple flooring manufactured by Augusta Lumber out of Waynesboro, Virginia and sold through a Tile Mart here in Michigan. The homeowners picked out the flooring and about 800′ was installed by my normal installer who I’ve dealt with for about four years.
After about a week or two of installation, the homeowner complained of some boards that had cracks running parallel to the grain. The installer replaced a few boards and told the owner to run a humidifier. The owner continues to find more cracked boards ( these are hairline cracks not big splits) and what appear to be some defects in the finish. Tile Mart’s manager came out and looked for approximately 10 minutes at the floor and determined it was a moisture problem and an installation problem and not a result of any product quality issues.
The installer maintains he did everything right – moisture readings were o.k., felt paper as underlayment,etc. This has started to turn ugly as the retailer (Tile Mart) is blaming the installer and the installer is claiming product problems. I should mention that the owner does not yet have a humidifier running because they don’t know who to believe and don’t want to add moisture if it isn’t necessary.
After some unprofessional conduct by the Tile Mart rep, we contacted Augusta directly. They refuse to send any one out to look at the floor and back Tile Mart 100% even though Tile Mart is no longer their local distributor. Augusta apparently hands all customer relations and quality issues over to the middle man. They have refused all our requests to look at the floor and blame the installer based on the info from the Tile Mart rep with whom they have severed their relationship.
Added to this the installers recollection of details is sometimes inconsistent relative to who he is talking to which only serves to muddy the waters.
Meanwhile the owners have a floor that they are not happy with, and I as the gc am stuck in the middle while the other parties all duck and hide. I’m not a wood flooring expert, but as the gc I am ultimately responsible for this floor. I believe the floor was installed properly,but the installer is very unorganized and can’t keep his stories straight. Tile Mart is out of the picture and I’ll never buy any product there again. Augusta seems very arrogant and unwilling to admit even the possibility of a poor product.
Any suggestions on resolving this for the owner?
Replies
"I should mention that the owner does not yet have a humidifier running because they don't know who to believe and don't want to add moisture if it isn't necessary."
Are there any readings of the moisture level in the house (RH) or moisture reading of the wood?
The more common complaint is that the new houses have excessive moisture.
Bill, at installation both the subfloor and the wood were tested with moisture meter and found to be at acceptable levels. This is what the installer told me, I didn't physically see him take the readings. This was in May which was a rainy month for us.
A reading was again taken a few weeks ago. One room came out as slightly dry and a hallway was high in RH but a bathroom is adjacent and showers had just been taken. These readings I saw but I don't have the figures.
The installer told you the moisture content was "OK"?
What exactly does he consider "OK"?
How long was the flooring allowed to acclimate at the jobsite prior to its installation?
How long does the installer suggest a humidifier should be run? If its a day short of forever, the flooring will only begin drying (and splitting) once again.
Was the subflooring sufficient? If the flooring was nailed off properly, and you`re getting movement in the subfloor (greater than that of typical shrink/swell), this might lead to splitting boards.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Jaybird, I don't know what he considers an o.k. reading. The wood acclimated 2-3 days. I asssume that he would recommend running a humidifier in periods of low humidity only. Again, I don't know what the acceptable range is althuogh I need to learn.The subfloor is 3/4 osb glued and nailed with ring shanks to 11 7/8 TJI's.
Subfloor sounds sufficient...2-3 days acclimation is not enough...2-3 weeks might be considered overkill, but that`s what I recomend. However, if you`ve got no seperation in the joints, that doesn`t sound like the cause. Neither does adding a humidifier sound like the answer to the problem.
I`ll have to go back and reread...but did you say this was a prefinished floor?
From the info you`ve given, it does sound more like a manufacturers defect.
How bad is it? If its only a few boards, perhaps the HOs would be willing to wait it out a bit. Go through an entire heating, then cooling season. If its only a few boards, perhaps you could get away with replacing just those.
I`d be fightin` hard to get a manufacturers rep out to have a look see.
Best of luck.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Did he glue it down , or to each other ? if the floor is shrinking ,or trying to it should open up in the joints.
Tim
Tim, the floor was nailed through the tongue with pneumatic flooring nailer. Only the subfloor was glued. There was some cupping evident early on, but that has all laid back flat. Seperation between the boards really isn't an issue.
Can you wait a little while to see if the problem equalizes and then refinish?We always put tar paper down underneath ,it helps the squeaks and helps control the moisture loss from the unfinished side. Seems like a material problem to me. Was there lots of figure in the wood?
Tim
Tar paper was used. It seems that the manufacturer has an answer for everything except how they can produce a product that couldn't possibly be defective in any way. Pis- poor customer service.
We've thought of sanding but here's the rub - Augusta would have a convenient way out of their warranty and if there is a moisture problem inside the wood ,would that eventually show up in the new finish?
I forgot. Yes the floor has some figuring to it. The product is called Countyrwood Plus. Most of the cracks occur in the darker parts of the wood. My installer says that maple floors are causing problems because of the mills not allowing enough curing time. Trying to get the wood to market to fast. BS - maybe, I don't know.
????Your instaler only allowed 2-3 days to acclimate before laying it!
He should have waited a week to ten days at least.He is having a hard time keeping his story straight?
But he says the moisture readings were OK?He says the mill is trying to hurry things up too much?
But he laid the flooring too soon! Yeah, I'm all confused too.But despite the problems with the installer's stories, it sounds like he did a decent job laying it. I cannot imagine a scenario where the installler could have done anythihng to cause the kind of splits you are describbing. Shoot the manufacturer.
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I once laid an expensive plank floor which the gc insisted should go on tar paper
instead of the red rosin paper i typically use. When the upstairs tenant left the
window open one winter night the frozen pipes and ensuing flood raining on to the
just finished floor brought an oil slick up permanently staining every joint...
As you said, you are ultimately responsible. That means, you get to fix the problem. It is hard to imagine how the installation would cause hairline splits. If the moisture in the flooring was too high, it seems the joints would open up. (As mine do in the winter.) If you have always had good results from your installer, I would back him up. But none of this changes your obligation.
I would have a conversation with the ho, asking him what he/she would like you to do. If necessary, offer to replace the floor. Maybe he will split the cost of this with you and maybe your installer will do the work at cost but you have to take care of it. With a smile on your face.
Schellingm, I haven't seen seperation between boards which is one reason I'm leaning toward the installers view. The ho just wants a nice looking floor and I am obliged( warranty) to see that they get that. I am also morally obligated as I accepted money to provide them with a quality floor. I just wish the other involved parties felt the same obligation after they received their payment. I didn't manufacture, sell or install the floor, nor do I control the climate in the home but I still bear the responsibility.
If this floor has to be replaced at a cost of thousands of dollars, am I wrong to think that the burden should be shared by those (including me) who profited from it? At the very least I think the manufacturer should make an attempt to look at this situation more closely. Anyone ever deal with Augusta Wood Floors?
IMHO there is some confusion in the responses here....
Lay the floor when the stuff is to "wet" and it will gap when it dries to the ambient moisture level....
Lay the floor when the stuff is too dry and it will swell and buckle when it gets humid....
The house may indeed be too dry, & need a humidifier in the HVAC system, but overall it sounds like inferior wood not an installation problem....
THere are many possibilities. You are looking at a hefty replacement cost if that is the case. I would STRONGLY suggest hiring a woodflooring specialist certified by NWFA. http://www.nwfa.org Thet can help determine the cause and they have much more pull with the manufacturer. I always record everything b4 installations. Your installer should to. I take and record moisture readings on the subfloor and wood. They should be within 3% of each other. Tar paper does little fo moisture and more for floor noise.
A digital camera is my best friend on a job. Hopefully you nay get away with replacing just a few boards. Good luck and look at http://www.hardwoodinstaller.com for more tips and education. Your the GC and that floor has your name on it.
Good luck.
Also there is the floor manaufacturing association.http://www.nofma.org/That set standards for the product.But Augusta does not seem to be a memeber.But they have a lot of installation information.And a list of certified inspectors.http://www.nofma.org/cwficourse.htm
Is this flooring insalled over radiant heat?
I had this problem once, and only once. I laid down a prefinished bamboo floor and within 3 weeks the hair line splits/cracks started. I replaced some boards and the problems continued. Both the disttributor and the manufacturer said I laid it wrong. When the replacement boards started to show hair lines as well I finally went to a different manufacturer and replaced the floor with their product. No difficulty. I don't use any of the products from that first manufacturer, now. Sounds to me as though I may add Agusta to that list.
Since this happened I've been told by a NOFMA rep that the finish was probably faulty, bad application or improperly mixed, and that it may have been applied over wood that wasn't properly kilm dried.
In my case the GC walked away and I had to deal with the HO. I ended up "eating" the cost, but since then the HO has had me do three other floors, and dealt with me direct rather than through the GC. I can't say I didn't loose some money but I think I am a bit better than even. The HO's wife thinks I'm a hero.
I'll try to answer some more of your questions. No to the radiant heat question. Moisture of subfloor and wood were within the 3% range. Yes it is prefinished. Some boards were already replaced with extras that were left on site. At least one of the replacements has cracked. I will check out the flooring assoc. mentioned.
I've been told by the installer that an independent rep would cost about $1400, but I will have to check that personally. As I said earlier the manufacturer refuses to even send out a rep of their own. There are surface defects in the wood, not enough to warrant a concern if the splitting wasn't also present. This makes me think that there was a problem at finishing. At least it should make Augusta be more responsive.
Sounding more and more like the flooring itself is flawed. Does this flooring carry any warranty? Get your ducks in a row with the installer and make a claim on the warranty. That may get an inspector out there. I would check on an independent inspector. $1400 sounds a bit high. You can find one through either NWFA or NOWFA.
Hardwood Flooring has a forum that has many excellant installers on there. Some are certified inspectors (Perry) as well and they may be able to help online to arm you when talking to the company.
http://www.hardwoodinstaller.com/hardwoodinstaller/phpbb2/viewforum.php?f=3
I would try there too b4 you replace this floor. Get a photo online and it may be easier to diagnose the problem.
Best of luck...
I'm not an expert - just a new home-owner.
We selected clear, select beech for the main floor (4" and 6" widths). Our builder had it delivered (inside) about 3 months prior to installation. About 2 weeks prior to installation he broke open the strapping and allowed it to "acclimate". Installation occurred in Nov '04, I applied Waterlox in early Dec, we moved in 28 Dec '04. The beech hasn't cupped.
So how long did your installer allow the flooring to acclimate?
daveinnh