Wood Sash; Which side to the weather?
PegHead
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
Hello gang!
On a recent project we hung some nice barn sash in some storage area doors….with the glaze/putty side OUT. In my mind that is the way we have allways done it and is the proper way.
The customer wants it the other way. Fine. I need to show him in some historical text that this (our way) was indeed the correct way. Then I can bill for the change.
I welcome your notes and suggestions on WHAT BOOK THIS MIGHT BE in. While your comments are nice, I need documentaion.
Thanks!
Replies
Near Philly?
I'm sure there's a glass and mirror shop somewhere close.
Find the old guy and ask him. He might not have published, but could be an experienced professional source of information.
I always enjoy threads
that explicitly prohibit discussion, and instruct respondents to address the OPs research needs directly.
I enjoy them even more when I'm paid my usual consulting rates to help!
You got that right.
I pretty much didn't have anything in print to reference and figured he / she already had googled the "how to glaze a window" idea. So I just figured I would go the route I would take when confronted with such a dilemma.
Course I could have come here and asked "how much" for the bathroom I'm working prices up for now. And I realize that had I spent the cash, there's a book that already does that.
Maybe the OP
should have his lawyer send the owner a letter requesting some evidence that glazing putty is commonly oriented to the interior. My bet is that if you inspected 10,000 older buildings with puttied sash you would find that 9,999 of them have the putty outside. The other one would be.... I dunno... strange?
And why do you think that is?
Glazing and the treatment behind it is a better seal than wood moving around against the glass?
Less mess inside when replacing a broken pane?
Glaziers are a theft risk?
Glaziers smell funky?
Book
Handbook of Doormaking, Windowmaking, and Staircasing. Antony Talbot. Page 136
Reminds me of the customer that made me rehang some big dentil crown with the dentils facing out into the room. Some customers are just stupid.
KK
Some of everyone are stupid too.
I had to testify as a consulting witness in a case of homowner v. contractor. Homowner said crown was upside down. This was the "stock" crown-the simple stuff-buy it anywhere.............
Cove down is what I viewed in the home. Cove down is what is in all home's I've been in. Cove down is what's shown in the publications. Cove down is the "historical" way-laws of balance architecture design and physics too I guess-the sweeping out of the upper portion supports what's above. I mean, had they asked the clerk at HD which way is up-I'm thinking they'd of come up with the same answer a majority of the time.
Luckily there were other reasons to take the stand-to drive to court and wait to be called over that one would have been short of a bad time.
So I learned a lesson in trimming out that day. Hold it up there and ask 'em. You never know.
So it lends credence to why our OP has asked for documentation. It's always been done like that has worn thin I guess.
Thanks for the tip.
Allways trust a book recomendation. Thanks!
I'll build the house upside down and backwards for my regular fee if that's what the customer wants.
Congratulations Peg
One of these days you'll be famous.
I'd rather be...
I'd rather be famous for being rich; for now I'm just working to figure out how to get rich. Though I was told the best way to get rich in carpentry was to marry a rich women.
....now I'm patienly waiting for my stimulas check.
(thanks for the fun ;-)
Don't marry a rich women..............
the multiple personality will kill you.
And being famous for being rich? You're kidding yourself.
Consulting Rules
Consulting rule # 1: Know your stuff
Consulting rule # 2: Know how to sell your stuff
Consulting rule # 3: Get paid well for the information you share.
Consulting rule # 4: Read the instructions carfully.
...So how much did you make?
How about the US Government (National Park Service) TPS briefs:
http://www.nps.gov/hps/TPS/briefs/brief09.htm
Which state:
"The final glazing compound or putty is applied and beveled to complete the seal. The sash can be refinished as desired on the inside and painted on the outside as soon as a "skin" has formed on the putty, usually in 2 or 3 days. Exterior paint should cover the beveled glazing compound or putty and lap over onto the glass slightly to complete a weather-tight seal. After the proper curing times have elapsed for paint and putty, the sash will be ready for reinstallation. "
Have a look at a pro's work just hung - http://www.smithrestorationsash.com/counterweight.html
National Trust for Historic Preservation (see page 2) - http://www.preservationnation.org/issues/sustainability/additional-resources/July2008WindowsTipSheet.pdf
Your customer is wrong!
Any other questions???
Jeff
Jeff, you're a good man!
Well, Boys....
While you hound dawgs were all sittin' by the perverbial fence waitin' for some scraps to be tossed to your side so you could look all tough and smart while you chewed over the original post, Jeff here was being thoughtful.
Kudos, Jeff. That's just the ticket to help me continue my practice of delivering on my promises to the client and getting paid obscenely well for it.
Hows' that cash flowin' fellas, while you sit up here and sling yip-yap at the walls?
Sometimes a guy just can't put his finger on the book or place where something so obvious is written that he needs a little help from a real gentleman in the business.
Customers are generally wrong, which is why they hire me. That does not automatically mediate their continued ignorance. So we charge them double; once for the tasks at hand and again for the confidence they get from knowing they hired the right guy.
Here is a photo of a nice old window for you Jeff. Name the building and I'll buy you a beer of your choice.
Just to throw a monkey wrench in the works, I vaguely recall seeing some barn sash where the glazing compound was on the inside. Seemed odd at the time, and I assumed it was something unique to barn sash, though I can't think of a reason why there would be a difference.
Never seen it anywhere except on barn sash.
window glazing
Having built/glazed thousands of wood sash, of all kinds, I can relate some input to this.
When wood sash are glazed, the glass rabbet gets a Small bead of "bedding", which is a sort of semi'flexible caulking. It's only function is to cushion the glass in the rabbet, and keep it from rattling around. It will not keep out water. The exterior side, can be either putty glazed or using wood stops as an alternative.
The putty, by design, has an angled application which constantly sheds water down to the sill. Oil based glazing compound is best, but harder to find. Barn sash have been marketed with a small wood stop instead of glazing compound, and this has a much shorter lifespan.
Although I've seen barn sash installed backwards, that offers only the trim paint as a water barrier, and most guys try to keep that off the glass (which doesn't seal the glass to wood joint. We actually had stickers applied to the glass recomending that the paint "lap" the glass.
The only reason I can see to install putty glazed sash backwards is to make it easier for a "non-glazer" to repair them. Doing so off a ladder, if you can't run putty would be discouraging.
Doing a reglaze isn't as much work as cleaning out the sash rabbet anyway. An 8 x 10 4 light barn sash can be glazed in less than 5 min easily.
Dave
I reglazed about ten windows in my parents' old farmhouse as a youth, and even when the putty was falling out it took more than 10 minutes just to clean up the wood surfaces. Some windows took over an hour, I'm sure. Of course, most of that putty was 60 years old and as hard as rock, and things would go faster now with hot air gun and modern scrapers, maybe one of those router gizmos.
Dan
For reglazing, the job can go very quickly with an electric heat tool made specifically for removing putty. Glazers supply vendors should have them. Caution though, on the old glass ( pre float glass, and in historical homes/buildings, the heater can crack the glass if left in one place too long. Usually, when the paint starts to bubble, the putty can be peeled out with the knife. As I recall, the heater needed at least an 8 x 10 lite to sit flat on the glass. All the older sash were done with oil based compound, and heat is the best way to get it out again.
In older sash, a coat of thinned boiled linseed oil will extend the glazing life.
To be current with the times, any type of glazing removal should assume lead based paint.
Back to the original thread though, putty glazing goes to the outside, some sash with wood stops may be installed with the stop to the inside (if the sticking on the other side will shed water, and the glass is bedded correctly).
Dave