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getting conflicting advice on the proper method for installing newly made but old fashion wood storm windows. They hang from the top over double hung windows. How tightly or not should the storms fit top, bottom and sides. The windows are mortise and tenon construction, primed and painted (Benjamin Moore oil). On the original set I had made the bottom rails suffered some rot (some substantial) and the tenons shrunk (only on the bottom rail) significantly.
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Replies
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getting conflicting advice on the proper method for installing newly made but old fashion wood storm windows. They hang from the top over double hung windows. How tightly or not should the storms fit top, bottom and sides. The windows are mortise and tenon construction, primed and painted (Benjamin Moore oil). On the original set I had made the bottom rails suffered some rot (some substantial) and the tenons shrunk (only on the bottom rail) significantly.
*I build wood storms and screens as a sideline for my cabinetmaking business. Ideally, I try to make the storms 1/8" less in width and 1/16" less in height than the opening. Frequently, I need to take off somewhat more than that if the opening is not square or if the window sill is not level. However, with the typical 3/4" window stops, you can still get a pretty good seal. I can't explain the rot on the earlier set which you made. You may have some unusual moisture problems in certain locations or you may have started out with green wood (that might explain the shrinking tenons). Wood storms and screens should last a long time. I have some on my house that date from the 1930's.
*According to what your storms are made of, keep a 16th to 8th on the sides and bottom, tight to the top. This is to accomodate expansion so you can get them in and out without them adhering to the windows. The tight fit has to do with how tightly they are pulled to the stops, not to the sides, and that has to do with the placements of the hooks. Makes sure the bottoms are well primed and painted so they don't suck up water that pools on the sill.At the top, get them as tight as possible so rain coming down the face of the siding doesn't wash inside the window. The insulation value comes from the air buffer between storm and window, which becomes vacuum like with the interior window closed, more than from the tightness of the fit of the storm. I've made just about every mistake one can with wood storms and screens, and learned from every one of them. SHG
*Are you knowledge, or are you l. howard ?Both ?
*I am wondering what type of wood to use for storms.
*I have heard suggestions that traditional wood storms are not meant to be airtight insulating spaces. They are supposed to stop driving rain from damaging the primary windows. Airtight storms are supposedly likely to have condensation problems, fog up and trap rot causing moisture. I'm not an expert, but I would be interested to hear the experts here comment.
*thanks all for your responses. we have never had any moisture, fogging or condensation.
*Two schools of thought on type of wood. A highly resistent wood, like mahogany, will hold up better but is more likely to run and weighs a ton when putting up and taking down. As you get older, the storms get a lot heavier. Pine is far lighter, but more likely to rot, etc. Pick your poison. I use mahogany, but it has to be very well primed to stop the bleeding. Pine also requires more maintenance and gets dinged easier.As far as air tight, they are never "air tight." But they still hold an air pocket and do an incredible job of tightening up a house when properly installed. Try to pull them as tight to the stops as you can whe installing the hook and eye, and don't worry about it. The condensation will form on the exterior of the storm if they are tight. If they aren't too tight, it will form on the exterior of the window. This is because the condensation will form on the outside of the less tight of the two sashes, with the air space between containing the warmer air if the storm is tight enough. I have some very old ones, true divided lights with an opening sash along the bottom row of lights on cabinet hinges. It's incredibly cool and the amount of work that went into them is amazing. You might want to try to build one for a room like the kitchen, where you want some cool air while cooking Thanksgiving dinner. And it is made of pine, but old pine (meaning real wood, unlike the crap available today).SHG
*SHGLaw makes some very good points. You need to pull the storms in tightly to the stops. That will give you a good fit. If they fit too tightly to the opening it will be a pain taking them on and off. Also, as he says, you can't expect a completly "air-tight" fit. But, you will get a more or less dead air space which provides good insulation value....certainly better than the aluminum units which conduct heat and cold so well.I continue to make my units out of pine. Yes, the old pine was probably better but new pine is still a good choice. Kept painted, they will last a long time. If you have a cheap source for fir that may also be a good choice....somewhat heavier and it doesn't machine as well but it is a bit more decay resistant. Mahogany might be another possibility but as SHG notes it is very heavy and quite expensive.
*What about using any type of weatherstripping between the storm window frame and the stop? I have not used any to this point. However, I recently read an article that advised using felt weatherstripping. What has been the group's experience?
*Thought about it, but figure that it would only get wet, hold moisture, promote rot and probably not last very long. The system works great as is. If it ain't broke, why fix it? Also, how do you paint if there is felt on the stops? Or put another way, what do you do when the painter paints your felt because he can't figure out what else to do with it?SHG
*Instead of felt, how about that plastic weatherstripping that you pressure fit into a groove around the outside of the sash? It looks like the edge of a squeegee. You can remove it easily for painting and put it back in.-- J.S.
*I suppose that would work, but still don't know why you would want to. And after all the work it takes to live with wood storms, why screw it up with plastic? Like buying a Jaguar XKE and putting fuzzy dice on the dash board because you want it to look cool.SHG
*The weatherstripping I'm thinking about you wouldn't see unless you looked into the 1/8" - 1/16" gap between the storm sash and the permanent frame. It stops the water near the outer surface. It goes around the outside of the sash, not on the side facing the stops, so it seals with a wiping action rather than by compression.-- J.S.
*John, that's not the gap that seals the storm. The storm fits within the frame, but presses up against a stop that runs 90 degrees for about an inch. With your hook and eye, you pull the sash tight to this stop. If the storm fits properly, it never touches the sides and that 16-8th gap remains there for expansion/contraction. SHG
*> John, that's not the gap that seals the stormRight, in conventional practice. What I'm suggesting is to use that instead of compression against the stop as the sealing point. The plastic material would allow for expansion and contraction. Instead of just tight on top, you'd have tight all the way around.-- J.S.
*Just put some of that real thin foam weatherstripping on the inner face of the storm.
*I've tried that thin foam. It disintegrates after a few years.-- J.S.
*A few years ? And what ? Yer too cheap to put more on ?b : )
*I'm with you, John. I'm in the process of fitting storms to my house & I'm going to use that flap (& its brother the bubble) to get a good seal. Mind you, I'm putting my storms on the inside, so it's a slightly different application, but the process is much the same. By the way, how are you making out with your place?
*> By the way, how are you making out with your place? Still waiting for the permit.... ;-(-- J.S.
*What about cedar for the frames. I just made several screen windows with cedar. They were light but alittle brittle.
*SGHLaw, How about posting a picture of the storms with the working sash.
*Cedar is good - light, stable, natural oils give it good rot resistance. A good coat of paint & they should last you years.
*I would love to, but am probably the only person left on the planet who doesn't have a digital camera. I can try to describe them, though.They are 16 lights, four rows of four. The bottom row is a separate sash hinged at the top so it swings out at the bottom. When closed, it's held in place by two turnbuttons. When opened, it's held at about 60 degrees by two large hooks and eyes. The bottom row sash has a half lap on top and an opposite one on bottom and sides.I have really got to get a camera. Sorry.SHG
*SHGLaw,OK I get the picture now 1000 words as good.......I was thinking that only one light moved and that it opened in , not a whole row . Thanks for the picture.
*you guys just haven't been around long enough..the storms fit against the stops, each one has a little brass button with a number on it and a corresponduing number on the frame.. some used to mark frame & sash with roman numerals because it can be done with straight cut marks...replacing the felts is an annual maintenance chore , as is paint and touch up... some storms hang from the top and are pulled in at the bottom by screws... round headthe felts are applied to the mating surface of the storm.. ie.. the back of teh sides and top and the bottom of the sash where it rests on the sill...today.. i would use 1/8 foam strip sticky back...but of course , after 10 years of taking them down, reglazing , painting, refelting and rehanging themin the fall.. i never want to look at a wooden storm window again... kind of like wooden boats..life is short.. who wants to spend it taking care of storm windows?
*That reminds me, I had spoken with the guy who made tacks and asked if he could make up a run of numbered brass tacks. I even sent him one for an example. I haven't heard back yet.Paint and touch up happen every few years (a couple each year until they all get done). You just find some young buck to do the uppers, and when he gets too old, you use his son. No big deal, unless he sends the son to college, in which case you have to find another sucker, ahem, I mean friend or you're screwed.SHG
*shg.. amen to that .. the day my dad had triple track alum. storms installed was a red letter day for me...
*I have reengineered some wooden storms that were origianlly on my house.The previous owner had saved 2 when they put triple tracks on the home and nailed them to the garage.Well, they were about 4 inches short in the width so the didnt do much but trap snow and ice in the winter.The building is now my workshop so I built up the sides with some new stock and then attached them using those brass threaded inserts and stainless steel eye bolts/w washers.I did tack felt weather strip around the inside surface of the storm as I did want an airtight seal.So far...no moisture problems.
*> I'm in the process of fitting storms to my house & I'm going to use that flap (& its brother the bubble) to get a good seal. Steve --What's your source for the flap and bubble weather stripping? I'm looking for something that outlasts the foam kind, and will stand up to rain driven by 40 - 50 MPH wind.Thanks ---- J.S.
*John - the outfit is Resource Conservation Technologies in Baltimore, (410) 366-1146. I don't think they have a web site, but they're real good over the phone. They carry many different weatherstripping materials, so you might see if you can get a catalog.Good luck.slh
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getting conflicting advice on the proper method for installing newly made but old fashion wood storm windows. They hang from the top over double hung windows. How tightly or not should the storms fit top, bottom and sides. The windows are mortise and tenon construction, primed and painted (Benjamin Moore oil). On the original set I had made the bottom rails suffered some rot (some substantial) and the tenons shrunk (only on the bottom rail) significantly.