Building a new house and have priced wood burning fireplaces from $600 up to almost $4,000.
Trying to do the math on the high-efficiency and it’s hard to make it pay for itselft “down here”. We are in the upper northwest corner of Arkansas, zone 6a. It can get cold and stay cold for a while ( 30’s, 40’s during the day…fahrenheit ), so it would be used. But, when I figure up the cost of wood and the cost of the stove, then I figure how much extra my heat costs me ( we’re all electric, no gas ) I’m out to about 12 years to pay for the stove if not more. That’s at current electricity costs. So it’s possible for that time to get compressed a little, but I wouldn’t think by much because wood is going up as well.
Thoughts?
We’re thinking about getting a nice looking, no efficient that can put out some heat, but will cost a whole lot less. I really want to do the high-efficiency, but just can’t tell that it would be worth it.
One big positive about the high-efficiency is I can load it up at night, turn it down, and turn the thermostat way down. When I wake up, I’ll have coals and I can just load it up.
Edited 7/28/2006 4:00 pm by dwcasey
Edited 7/28/2006 4:03 pm by dwcasey
Replies
Up here in the mountains of Va. a lot of the good ole boys
are going to outdoor water heater furnaces,they say with
being able to use the hot water and to heat ole homestead,
they are paying for the thing in about 3 to 4 years,from what
I have seen they are reasonably efficent on the wood also,
one fellow has a duel fuel, where he burns coal when he is lazy
with the wood.one good thing,about them though is all the mess
and bugs is kept outside,not in your clean new house.
I just went to a local fireplace store and asked about the different fireplaces. He told me that I should not waste my money on the cheaper fireplaces and go right for the high efficiency if I am to use it for heat. The explanation was that the cheaper fireplaces have to have the glass doors open to burn because the glass is not rated for the higher temp that they would get if closed and also the box is not rated for the higher temps. He told me you could line the box with fire bricks and buy different glass doors but you would end up spending just as much as the high efficiency units. So why cant I burn with the doors open for heat I asked him. He explained that even with the fresh combustion air 4" pipe the fireplace will draw considerably more air through the several sq. ft opening(door area). All that air that is rushing up you chimney that came form you warm living area has to be replaced (usually furnace and your furnace has to heat this air first. so basically your furnace will preheat lots of cold air so your cheaper fireplace can suck it up and shoot it out the chimney. Your situation may be different with electric heat but I hope my 2 cents helps.
Thanks for the info. I've talked with 4 fireplace stores in the area over the past couple of months. And for heat, they said get the high efficiency...we're looking at a fireplace, not a stove or insert, since this is new contruction.Our current house has an inexpesive zero-clearance wood burning fp and I can actually heat the room up that it's in. Which is good during the day because the family is usually in that room, so we can keep the thermostat down while they are close to the fireplace.So it is pulling a lot of air through the chimney, but it's radiating a lot of heat out as well.
There is some BS in what thry said.
ANY glass installed in a wood burning stove is indeed rated for the heat
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I think you need to talk to moody, he from that area, but 12 years to pay off. first ice storm without power, its paid off the first 12 hours.
Yepper, I hear ya. A few years ago, we had no power, 20's, ice, the works. Where we live it sorta rural and difficult to get to. Before kids, I didn't worry too much about it, but it's a little different with kids.
If I had ever heard a salesperson feed me a load of cr@p like that I would walk out of the store immediately and advise no one I knew to go there again. The glass is always rated for heat and I have never seen even the cheesiest units ever sold without firebrick. There are federal regulations on these things you know. What if the guy at the hardware store told you that the $9 toaster would only work if you first encased it in asbestos to prevent burning your house down, but that $49 toaster can work safely on its own.No doubt the $4,000 units have some advantages over the $400 units but they both put out a lot of heat. The cheap ones have been heating cabins and houses all over the country for decades before stylish engineers were motivated to come up with altrernatives for folks with too much discretionary income.
wood heat is a lifestyle choice -
if you choose to follow it, get/install the good stove/fireplace (it's unclear to me which we are talking about) - I'd be sure it's a model that works well without power -
think in terms of wood storage and then the movement of fuel toward the fire - a place inside the house for 2-4 days worth of fuel -
carrying wood thru living space and loading stoves/fireplaces is dirty - a recessed hearth to contain debris is a good idea -
if it's strickly a $ descision, get a less expensive freestanding stove for backup heat and see what you do with it -
just my rambling opinion - 28 year wood heat person - zone 5z
I like burning firewood in the fall/winter. I like to cut it down, chop it up, split it and stack it. We're getting a fireplace for sure, but, I'm just not sure if it will be a high-efficiency model.I like what you said about wood storage...I need to think about that now. We haven't finished framing around the spot where the fp will go, so I can plan that before it gets too far along.
if I was spending big $ on wood heat, I'd have a masony stove (russian fireplace) http://www.hollowtop.com/cls_html/do-it-yourself/masonry_stoves.htm
perhaps Calvin will find this thread tonight - he has one -
"there's enough for everyone"
I once hada customer who built and designed her own house. She had large heavily insulated doors either side of the fireplace "behind" where she stored her logs (inside). The doors opened up to the exterior so that the logs (stacked on the other side of the wall/doors - outside) could simply be lifted and stacked in the house while standing outside!
Pretty nifty. Not sure about energy efficiency though.
Great idea. Yes, not sure about energy efficiency, but she sure had a good idea.Well, I'm pulling the trigger on the stove. I was able to find a 71%+ effecient fireplace from a very reputable fireplace/stove dealer ( been in the area for 20+ years ) and I'm getting a pre-winter season deal ( $100 off ), so $2,400 is what it will cost for the fireplace. Still have to get pipe, blower, and labor, but it should still be below $3k. I called and talked to the manufacturer of the stove yesterday and it seems like a very good unit. It's a Magna-Fyre for those interested. The guy said they live up in Minnesota and they design their fireplaces to heat!Thought about starting another thread on this, but will just put it in here...but I'm just thinking outloud now...The high-efficiency types are so miserly with the wood that I will probably burn less in it than I do in my current cheap in-efficient wood burner now. Seasoned wood around here is sold as a rick which is about 1/3 of a cord. There is no state regulation on firewood sales, but one newspaper requires it to be sold/listed by the cord ( 4x4x8 ).A rick of seasoned oak, bought early, will cost about $40 - $50 delivered...add $5 - $10 if you want it stacked. That's split wood, not the rounders. So I figure I can get a cord for about $150, give or take and that will easily last a season. Average season that is...if it's really cold and stays cold, you could burn up to 5 rick in a high-efficient stove/fp.Also figured up heating over the past couple of years...looks like in our current house, we paid ( we're all electric ) and extra $100 - $130/month for heat for about 3.5 months. That's the current house, new house should be a little more efficient all around.
I was who Brownbag was mentioning .
I live in NW Arkansas as well.
Be careful about the hype of high effecincy. Thats exactly what it is barring sealed doors and glass .
Anytime you shut the burner down to low heat on a load of wood it will be building creosote . Unless they have some way to raise the temps its going to happen. It takes at least 600 degrees to comsume vioalites and that depends on which flow design is being used.
The filter grids dont work unless they are ignited so many people eliminate them for they clog up with soot.
As long as you understand and accept the cresote with a plan its not too bad. Building a roaring fire every morning to fire the unit out keeps it clean, because you know the slow over night load created some unwanted cresote .
The best units Ive ever seen were top mounted exuast stoves that ran straight up using thriple stainless . The will tell you that you only need double in places but the more insulated the flue is the hotter the inside stays . You need all the heat retained you can get inside the flue pipe. While the old theroy was to use the pipes as heat as well.
Ill write some more later .
Tim
Edited 8/2/2006 1:02 pm by Mooney
Sealed doors, outside air, pyro-ceramic glass, glass wash system, 1400 degree, 65,000 btu/hour. For the money, at least looking at the other guys here in NW Ark, it was a good price. Not sure about the pipe they use, but I know it's got an insulated thick wall...and it's heavy.
Last year I converted from a gas insert to a Security Chimineys Bis Panorama High Efficiency (72%) with catalytic converter. I chose it because of the efficiency and the large door.
It burns a lot of wood. I live in Maryland and we went through 2 cords of wood. We did use it most days and especially throughout the weekend. It will heat most of my 3,300 sq.ft house. It can be (but isn't) connected to a forced air heating system.
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I think the time has passed for people to heat their whole home with space heaters . Its really misconcieving information .
The way people work with both spouses working its really hard to keep a hot fire going all the time to do it . So the compromise ;
In our area of the country a heat pump is efficent down to freezing and those warmer days where the temps are simply not low enough to heat a home with a stove . Many people today size their wood units to the sq ft of the home just to help out the heat pump. Never to take the load off of it for a great period of time .
At night when the temps fall to heat strip range its time to fire the wood stove to not let that process begin.
Theres much discussion as to the size of the box and its different effects . But there are some simple ways to remember the priciples.
The bigger the box , the more wood per load for the unit to be efficient . Often called the all nighter stove.
The smaller the box the more efficent on a smaller load of wood .
The thing is an all nighter doesnt do its thing on a couple of sticks and if thats the load the efficency drops below what you would have liked often comsuming 50 percent of loss. Thats an important fact to remember .
The shape of the box is another important factor . A reqtangle standing up is by far the best design. There are two important reasons ;
The air inlet is normally in the center of the load area located at the bottom. You get too wide a load area it forms cresote. You must remember the box must be hot and the whole box. It takes air to comsume violates , so the out side of a box too wide is a tary mess . Plus it isnt getting it done .
With a design of a tall but narrow box the next wood to be burned is in the smoke chamber getting heated . If you decide to call for more heat , POOF you can catch the whole box on fire . Geter done ! If you open the controls on a wide box it struggles to bring the box up to temps asked for and often takes as long as 30 minutes to respond. That wide box also takes a lot of wood to burn out the fire chamber in the morning . Too much .
Since glass doors are popular they actually proove my therory. Where does the soot start to form on the glass? The out sides of course where there isnt adequate air consumption to burn the violates. The narrow stoves easily stay clean and when they arent after an all night low temp fire , POOF in a few minutes its clean.
The design of the S flow draft invented by Scandinavians is still standing as the best design for increasing residence time of violates and providing additional heat transfer. That is where the real efficiency starts, not choking a full load down to 200 degrees box transfer. The steel grid is still standing as the best catcher of soot . It fires red hot and ignites the second combustion in the smoke chamber . Thats referred to as the secondary burn.
Depending on size of stove and design there are different wood choices . We live in an out standing area for wood burning and there are many old time tenders in the area still that are also woodsmen . Their teachings through the years have brought us up to a great level of knowledge about fire tending.
The cheapest and best wood to buy are "end cuts" from hardwood saw mills fully scattered across our area. The bark is stripped and they are really cants sqaured to around 1 ft in length. Mostly all heart wood and dry. They run around 38lbs per cubic ft weight at 12 percent moisture level. They load a 16 ft tandem axle for me for 15 to 30 dollars which is equal to 5 ricks of wood . They are much cleaner burning than normal firewood and slabs are worse than firewood for ashes since its all bark and outer cells.
I wont get into stove brands as there are simply many out there that are good but there is a few great ones at different things. No one stove is all that .
Tim
If you do attempt to heat an entire house with a stove, it would be a good idea to install some sort of air circulation system. If you install whole-house AC that'll basically cover it, though you might want to install an alternate set of registers -- high for AC, low for heating season.Habitat for Humanity has used some plans for super-insulated homes that heat with a small space heater, even here in MN. The air circulation system is an important part of the design.
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One of the best simple systems Ive seen is to have the heating stove in a cathedral living area captureing the heat and directing it to the top point . Placing grills and flex pipe to areas such as bedrooms with ceiling diffusers will put heat to the back or other end of the house quickly in time of need using transfer fans inline. . It can be ran off a thermostat thats unsually in the master bedroom.
However its important to note that sleeping cold with a spouse offers fringe benifits not rewarded in a high temperature room.
Tim
Habitat for Humanity has used some plans for super-insulated homes that heat with a small space heater, even here in MN. The air circulation system is an important part of the design.
There again , that would depend on the size of house and the amount of insulation per climate . Also how air tight the house in question is built.
In a modern home we are used to a complete air change per hour where Grandpaw saw air changes of zero when his butt moved away from the fireplace. We still have people living in places like grandpaw did and between.
Ive ran heaters in small and big houses and its a worlds difference .
Years ago I lived in a modern [for the day] 964 sq ft house and heated it nicely with a warm morning wood heater that had an outer cabnet that was just like a central furnace with out the blower on . It automatically put out hot air like an air handler . The other end of it was drawing cold air across the floor from the bedrooms . They say that stove is he best for a heated basement . I havent seen that but I saw a stove like it placed in a lower garage in a split level. It somehow heated the house .
Most stoves are rated to put out 36000 to 65000 btu but the biggy is they have to be cookin. On a full load of wood , that load is only cookin a short time of the load compared. So actually a 36000 btu heater might only average 15000 on an all night burn. Its kinda like driving from on destination to another and traveling 70 miles an hour . You get there only to find your average speed is only 50mph. Sorta a comparison. On a small stove on an all night burn that you slept through the stove may be kicking out 5000btu when you walk in and find it with few coals in it . Those kinds of real life averages arent printed on the brochures.
Tim
Edited 8/2/2006 5:48 pm by Mooney
I'm in upstate NY, where it can colder than a cat's azz in winter. I have had a Quadra-Fire brand fireplace insert for 13 years. It's the only brand I'll ever buy.
They make freestanding stoves as well. Burns clean, which is important if you want to avoid frequent chimney cleanings and risk of chimney fires. You can definitely do the slow, all night burn and get it fired up in the morning.
Nothing heats better than a coal stove, two tons of coal at 180 dollars a ton last one season here in western MA. That is using two stoves in a big duplex-3600 sq feet. Of course you need a wood fire to get the coal going, we use about 1 cord a year for both stoves. We used to pay 500 a month for NG, the stoves can pay for them selves pretty quickly.
Do yourself a favor and avoid burning coal. Not the healthiest thing to do, see the following article:http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/rev26-34/text/colmain.html
Coal is not very good for the environment I know, but the NG prices goes up 30 percent a year. We did not want to be paying 1000 or 1500 dollars a month for heating. And I was keeping my side at 57 degrees and that was getting too expensive.After reading the article I will try to burn more wood this winter though.
up here in the northwoods of NH we commonly see 20 30 below. What has become very popular are pellet stoves, burning compressed wood pellets. Very efficient, very clean, no bugs (think carp ants, termites), many have a self feeding hopper. But just like any other fuel, pellets are a commodity item and price will fluctuate.
We have a wood burning stove in our basement and use through the winter to heat the house. furnace kicks on during the day when we are gone, but on weekends, I can keep the thing stoked up and upstairs will be between 68*and 70*without the furnace ever running.
I haven't done the math to see, if or how much $$ we save. When you factor in the cost of a chainsaw, time to cut,split, and stack I am not sure if we come out ahead. But when it is 15* below zero, it sure feels nice.
dwcasey.
look to other sources for your wood..
Firewood is often considered a luxury item and wood is priced accordingly..
I go to my local sawmill and buy the slab wood for $25.00 for a full (tailgate rubbing in the dirt) load of hardwood like oak, ash, or cherry.. (it's about 4 feet wide by 5 foot high and 8 to 9 feet long of densely packed wood) ..
Now granted I need to cut it into fireplace sized pieces but that requires a few minutes with a chain saw..
Do it early in the winter when you get heated twice from the wood, Once from the excersize of cutting and hauling it and once when the wood burns..
PS sawmills often sell out their slab wood early so don't wait for December to get some..
I've burned wood in lower end wood stoves for years including almost exclusively heating our house in MN with it even in sub-zero temps. Here are some points to consider:
1) Low end units heat perfectly well but tend to not hold coals overnight unless you pack it at 1:00 AM or so.
2) In your not-so-cold climate, consider that it may tend to OVERheat your house. The heat output is tough to control on the low end.
3) If you have an endless supply of wood you will save money and pay for the unit in just a few years or less, but if you EVER have to pay someone else to deliver their firewood to you it will never pay for itself. It would be cheaper to just use your furnace.
4) Start cutting wood early so it can season well.
Insulate the holy heck out of the place and you'll hardly need heat. Be especially careful to seal against air infiltration (but also be sure that an outside air supply is available for your wood burner and any other combustion appliances).
Look into Electric Thermal Units (ETS) units if your home is not too large. Very efficient electric heat and then a nice glass window wood stove when you have the leisure time to keep it stoked.
For those of you considering wood heat be sure to check with your insurance company. Many companies will not insure a home with a wood stove. Those that do may send someone out to inspect the installation. In my case they require a UL listed stove. A lot of people here have put in the outdoor boilers to get around the insurance problem. My biggest problem with outdoor boilers is that they tend to be oversized so they sit and smolder the wood. Most municipalities have ordinances that prohibit operation of outddoor boilers between May and October due to the acrid smoke that comes out of them when they are in smolder mode. They also have longevity issues, initially they cost 4 to 5 K some only last 5-7 years. That is quite a write off. I live in Northern WI. were it can get to -40, I use a Vermont Castings Defiant model. Nice stove works good. Biggest problem I have is when it gets 30-40 degrees above zero we have to open the windows sometimes. Gets too warm, there is quite a thermal lag with the cast iorn. Roger
8 ricks has been a standard we have lived by in NW Arkansas for a small to medium house through a winter if you are trying to actually heat the home with wood.
Some try to have 10 to 12 on hand in case of a bad winter but most of the time whats left over is the really dry wood the next season.
I only heat below 30 degrees and dont fire the stoves above it . I probably only burn 6 ricks of wood a year. With the price of natual gas though Im thinkin about it . I better go fer a load now . <G>
Tim
I go through about 4 a year, 4 pieces that is, about 16 inches long
roar
Man, all this talk about the hearth when it's 100 degrees outside has got me longing for winter.
In the winter we have a couple threads running on such subjects. Its good medicine for cabin fever.
Tim