This is a DIY question. We are building a tub surround – pine v-joint over Kerdi. Would you prime the back of the boards before gluing them to the Kerdi, or just seal the heck out of them, once installed using polyurethane construction adhesive?
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Replies
Why Pine?
There's really no sealing such a thing. It might help if you add some details about what you're trying to accomplish.
Pete
It will be vertical t&g with a marine grade finish, silicone caulking, and a Kerdi base. The basic question is: will primer on the back of the wood interfere with the adhesive???
Edited 2/24/2009 8:33 pm ET by cfa
I think the bigger question is what effect the water that gets behind the T&G will have. I would also expect the pine to want to cup like crazy. Maybe you could control it by prefinishing all the pieces with spar before assembly, but even that's not likely to last long.Pete
I always wonder why some people wish to use materials ill suited for an application and then ask for advice on how to do it. Yes, saunas have wooden walls, but they're different from a shower in an enclosed bathroom. What is the attraction?
Thought I might get a straight answer to a simple question.
Sorry you're miffed. I think I gave you a straight answer.
It's not a simple question. You are attempting something over the extreme edge of reality
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I don't know paper might be the extreme edge.
And your three choices of wood would not be mine ,I have seen cedar and redwood fail and even cyprus.
Ipe or teak or even pine heart would be my first choices.
I still think for the look without the grief I would do the plastic tongue & groove panels.
It would be easy to wash and should last forever.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Does it have to be pine.
One might want to consider cedar also.
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We are building a tub surround - pine v-joint over Kerdi
Is this a soaking tub, perhaps a whirlpool?
This is not a stock tub with shower, correct?
What is the kerdi installed upon? (Just curious)
I'd be very tempted to dip the boards, just to make sure of getting good sealer contact. As a guess PL Premium will stick to the boards, but, it's going to be a lot of fun bracing all the boards while the glue cures.
Ok, how tall will this suround be? just thinking that the cap rail might could help you out holding the boards in, or providing a place to put fasteners that will be covered up in the future (really hate the idea of buying kerdi then perforating it with nails through v-joint tongues--if only for future onwers to deal with).
Now, wood in a tub and shower space? I'd install FRP as watertight as humanly possible, then install a cleats to hang the lumber off of, and skip any thing other than an oil finish, presuming that the constant water contact with the wood will eventually require replacment.
Any place wet enough to require Kerdi is too wet for wood. They just don't go together...
Well, yeah--unless we are thinking "stewardship" and it might become a "more wet" area 20, 30, 40 years from now.
Or, over-zealous kerdi install; Change order; or some such similar event.
I've installed cedar around an ofuro, but it was unfinished spanish cedar, and meant to be replaced at some point, not to be a waterproof surface.
Just trying to find that happy medium for OP even while only medium-informed about what was wanted.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I saw something like that done once, but it was teak and the whole thing was designed to allow water and good air circulation on either side of the wood. It was also in Colorado at 8000 feet, so everything dries really fast.Pete
...and Capn...The talk about "sealing the heck out of" leads me to think the person suspects wood can be treated enough to be impervious to the water it'll meet. And apparently he/she doesn't want to hear any noise to the contrary. Ah, well. *sigh*
Well wood boats are made to be water proof so not impossible.
If this surround is actually going to be a wet wall I would definately look at plastic lumber tongue and groove as my first choice and I would do it in paneling not individual pieces so that the water can't penetrate the grooves.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Interesting idea...use Kerdi as a layer on a boat hull so that you can use T&G pine on the exterior. When the pine rots off, the boat is still waterproof!;^)
Personally I would do it in plastic panels but I think if you super waterproofed the wood in urathane and or epoxy and were careful with the details it could be built to last as long as tile.
I wouldn't put it on the floor of a shower but I do believe you can use it as an upper half surround.I mean there are thousands of showers with windows that have wood components and while most that I have seen have had water issues there have been many without.
This would not be my choice but if one really wanted that look and the walls were three sides one could even make them into panels that were easily replaceable.
I replace siding and window sills with rot all of the time and with proper care thes sills would not have to be replaced.So consistant contact of the wood by the elements have a track record of surviving.
It just takes bi yearly maintenance and proper detail.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
It appears that the OP wis after the aesthetic appeal of wood, which Trex probably won't provide. The OP is talking about Kerdi, which signifies a wet environment, in which the pine end grain is going to act like a bunch of straws soaking up water. There is just NO WAY that T&G pine won't expand and contract enough to break any sort of film coating with resultant UN-aesthetic mold and eventual rot, never mind the issue of cupping when one side is wetter than the other. Your window wood is in a relatively protected environment compared to what the OP is intending to do.Can it be done? Of course. Should anyone counsel anyone else that this constitutes best practice? I don't think so...
Did I ever say best practice?
As far as the end grain I seal them up on a regular basis with silicone caulk every corner board that seats on a roof has the same problem.
Until we have a complete set of details I still will say it depends.
An example that comes to mind is a john boat made out of plywood that has been around for over 40 years and still floats without leaking.It is regularly maintained and painted.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Iowa holds a cardboard boat regatta, but i wouldn't steer an OP in that direction, either! <G>I also wouldn't "seat" corner boards on the roof, were it me.
Edited 2/26/2009 1:52 pm by splintergroupie
That gives me another material source.
Corragated plastic like they use for greenhouses and signs.
I use this to block the radiator during the cold months and it sure beats cardboard.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
By the time someone puts a second or third roof on it is usually touching.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
Treat the wood end grain to silicone - which can hold moisture in as well as hold it out - instead of dealing with three layers of roofing material?
I have to leave before my head explodes.
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Thank you for your input and your suggestions. Perhaps I'll post results in a couple of years.
ya all come back now ya hear.
I wouldn't attach the pine directly to the Kerdi. I'd do the pine on sleepers (strips of wood) and have those sleepers attached to the subdeck That'll give you a bit of an air pace between the bottom of the pine and the Kerdi.Treat the top and bottom faces of the pine equally, sealer-wise.
Or take it a step further and have panels removable.
Sleepers? I think cfa said it was a vertical installation.(edit: Post #4)
Edited 2/28/2009 2:14 pm by splintergroupie
Oh gawd...and to think I just got my first REAL eye exam and my first REAL pair of glasses last week!With blind no longer an excuse, I simply have to plead stupidity. And illiteracy. And a couple of other things, but I have to go look up the fancy names for them first...
If it were anyone else, i wouldn't have gone to Webster to double-check the def'n of "sleeper" to see where I was mistaken. ;^)
Well wood boats are made to be water proof so not impossible
Well, as a fine point of order, wooden boats can only be built to water-resistant. The "proofness" of a wooden hull comes from immersion, and from design (caulking seams, laminating layers, etc.) A pump has a significant roll in keeping water out of a wooden hull.
I'm guessing that OP did not intend to laminate moisture-resistant veneers in epoxy to make a shower surround. Neither to hammer caulking into the joints, and "mind" that work with pitch on a regular basis.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
And apparently he/she doesn't want to hear any noise to the contrary. Ah, well. *sigh*
Well, I was trying to not join the parade of rain, and see if there was a subtlety that had been missed, like a decorative finish around a soaking tub, rather than a pine-lined shower stall.
I've seen waterproof plywood tacked into a shower enclosure--and yes, it looked just like a RKI might imagine . . .Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Please bear with me on this: Sorry that you seemed to get upset over some of the replies--I think folks were just trying to protect you from yourself, so to speak. They were thinking you may not know the problems you could encounter with what you propose.
That said, one thing you could do is to build the whole thing out of laminated thin strips, that are all "glued up" using epoxy--the way boats and especially canoes are sometimes built ala "The West System." The strips are pretty much soaked with thinned epoxy and built up to the desired thicknes. This would not look like T & G pine, however.
(Although I suppose v-grooves could be incorporated into the strips by putting the last layer on vertically and leaving space between strips that have been chamfered.) You could build the surround by fastening either marine-grade plywood or pressure treated plywood to the studs, then soaking the vertical veneers in epoxy and stapling them through plastic straps to the plywood, leaving the gaps you want. Then when the epoxy has cured, pull the staples by pulling on the plastic straps and then go over it all with another coat of epoxy--this is similar to how veneer-strip canoes are built. Quite expensive and time consuming though.
Strip boats are really a fiberglass composite. They're normally a thin wood core glassed on both sides, not "soaked" in epoxy. The glass effectively eliminates wood movement due to moisture.Pete
I wouldn't bother sealing the pine.
It's gonna rot in a few years anyway.
And yes, I'm quite serious.
Doesn't really matter since you will be tearing it out in a few years anyways.
But if you use red cedar, redwod or PO Cedar, you might just have a chance of it working out.
Definitely seal all six sides with a couple Coats of poly or waterlox
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Edited 2/26/2009 5:43 pm ET by Piffin