Woodstove Advice and Experience Wanted
I’m in the PNW, 1700 sq. ft. ranch style house, electric heat pump with forced air, lot’s of wood available, an area prone to power outages.
Right now our house is a warren of rooms but we’ll be remodeling in the spring or summer. It’ll be modified to a contemporary style open-floor plan. We’ve got an existing flue for a wood stove but no stove. We want to change that dynamic with something that will act as both a backup and can take most of the heating load during the colder winter months. Since the energy rebate thing is in effect till the end of the year… we want to do it now rather than when we remodel. We’ll simply move the stove to a different location then.
So we’ve been visiting dealers and looking at what’s available. Our preference is toward very contemporary style but we find there is a dearth of those available. Sure there are the european models, but most don’t satisfy Washington’s emission requirements and the makers of these are VERY proud of them. We’d like to keep this purchase to $2K or less for the stove itself.
We like the Morso stoves very much. They seem to be very well constructed and are not overly fussy style wise. They have a cylindrical shaped contemporary model that is appealing but it need rather short logs… 10 to 12″ max.
Questions: I’m rather convinced to get one with outside combustion air… am I correct on this? Anyone have experience with Morso? Will the short log requirements of that stove (and other small models) drive me nuts? Any opinion/experience relating the manufacturers BTU outputs to actual use? How do I relate to their “can heat
# sq. ft.” listings?
Thanks for any and all opinion.
Replies
We'd like to keep this purchase to $2K or less for the stove itself.
Can you DIY? Are you willing to abbrogate WA legislative BS?
if so DIY a garage sale 1970s alaska stove or similar.
Or, join the Rumsfeld masonry stove guild in WA,just $50 or so, and build a good masonry stove that has a WA exemption if you belong.
Built my system in 1970 to heat 5300 sq ft in WA and have a signed 'burn day' exemption from the county..
\btw if you dont diy, the 'sap' is appropriate ,g.?
Yea, I can do it myself. Did it once... in Alaska, in the 70's. Now, I think I'm going to buy one. I've got enough other things to do for the next several years. But I'll check out the masonry stove. In fact, my wife just this morning found an online article about them. Doesn't it hold too much heat for the more mild transitional seasons? I'm thinking a cast or steel stove can take the chill off in the morning or evening quickly without having unwanted latent heat during the daytime. In Alaska we wanted heat all day, not so much here. How's that work for you?Sapwood is the living/growing part of the tree. Unlike the pretty, but dead, heartwood.
I wouldn't get hung up over the outside air intake. Nice to have, but it's not likely you'll remodel to a tight enough house that it becomes necessary. If you find a stove model that has it that appeals to you, go for it. Otherwise, don't let it rule your decision.
I have seen Morso's, but never used one. They are an old company (I've been out of the woodstove business for 20+ years and there were old Morso's around when I got into it) and that speaks well of them.
I've used stoves that use small wood and the biggest problem will be the extra labor in preparing the firewood. If you're cutting your own, you can cut it any length you want. If you're buying it, wood that short is hard to obtain.
Too small of a stove is better than too large, effciency wise. It's better to run them hot vs. choked down, but burn times will be shorter.
With a 1700 sq ft house, you could probably keep the pipes from freezing and maintain a comfort zone near the stove, depending on how cold it gets and how prolonged the the cold or lack of electricty is. To keep the extremities of the house comfortable, it'd likely be unbearably warm in the room with the stove.
Several years ago ( I have a similar size ranch), we were without electricity for 11 days (major ice storm) with the temps getting a little above freezing during the days and below at night. We had to drag mattresses into the room where the fire was and actually survived pretty comfortably as long as the fire got stoked. The furthest away areas (bedrooms) never got below the high 40's. That's with a fireplace. You'll fare much better on less wood with a stove.
copper p0rn
I hope to create a tight house.... right now, it isn't. I'll be cutting my own wood. Some from trees to be cleared and more than a bit of hardwood left over from projects in my shop. I make custom furniture. But I'm more thinking of 20 years from now... will I still be cutting my own? I suppose I shouldn't worry about that today.Thanks for the response.
If you build tight ... combustion air may be desireable. Some stoves may have it built in these days, not sure of the state of the art on that. Normally it wasn't a part of stove design and energy codes in the PNW required combustion air ... which resulted in some people running a dampered combustion inlet to the vicinity of the stove to ensure that it wouldn't backdraft/starve the stove. You can't just connect a combustion air inlet to a stove ... violates U-L listing (unless the stove is designed for it).
For the mild western Wa weather, your small stove may be just the ticket given the extra cost/effort for the small wood fuel.
Quadrafires are made in the Spokane area ... very nice, but may not be what you wanted. They were among the last few wood stove manufacturers standing when emissions requirements came about. If I recall, they were the only one w/out a catalytic converter who could meet the emissions (I think I have that right). They had their own testing set up. Nice outfit.
"get one with outside combustion air."
generally good idea, but need to know more about the house - how tight it is, and how well insulated. Is it on a slab or crawl space, will stove be installed on an exterior wall or not.
"Will the short log requirements of that stove (and other small models) drive me nuts?"
Depends how stable you are.
There are advantages to shorts. Takes more cutting but is easier splitting. Shorts season dry enugf to burn faster. Will you be cutting your own wood or buying?
"Any opinion/experience relating the manufacturers BTU outputs to actual use?"
What is the average heating require in degree-days for your location??? BTU output is relative to input. rotty softwood will not provide the BTUs that seasoned hardwood will. A quick google will provide you with a chart showing BTU/cubic foot of various wood types used. Your current system should have labeling showing the BTU output it delivers. Supposing that it is an 80KBTU system, keep in mind that an 80K wood stove will not necessarily replace it unless you have somebody home tending that fire all day to keep it fed. The stove may be CAPABLE of that, but has to be fed the fuel to do it. And a smaller stove with smaller log capacity will need more frequent feeding.
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I happened to have a quick chat with the mason on the job I am at about masonry stoves and fireplaces, what I learned is that here in Ky, it's code to have outside air for combustion.
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The house will be tight. At least I'm planning on that. New windows, caulk and foam, perhaps exterior insulation board... the whole shebang. It's on a crawlspace. The stove location is yet to be determined but we are thinking an exterior wall.I'm mentally stable today. Can't guarantee anything for tomorrow.I'm near Seattle, WA. 4800 annual heating degree days. Max. monthly is about 750. Not much of a heat load. But it's damp cold. I'm not used to this.
You'll be fine with a smaller stove like that and cutting you own wood. I think I'd go for the air intake unless the particulars of house design make it too hard to install.
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Used to heat the folk's drafty old Maine farmhouse with two woodstoves- a Vermont Castings Dutchwest catalytic and a Tempwood (no longer in business iirc). 10 to 12 cords of wood a year. seeyou is spot on stove size- too large and you'll have to throttle it down too much and ask for problems with soot and creosote. As for log size if you cut your own wood it shouldn't be an issue other than a little extra work. If you buy your wood, it depends who you get- you may find yourself pulling out the chainsaw despite your instructions. I wasn't a fan of the catalytic stove- it was a bit finicky. Wood had to be bone dry and the catalytic combustor had to be cleaned time to time. As for outside air in a drafty old Maine farmhouse it wasn't an issue but if you significantly tighten up the house it's something I definitely would consider. Recall a new house a friend worked on in the early '80s; they had to crack a window or two to get the fireplace going. Don't forget the smoke and CO detectors. Morso was pretty well regarded ........ don't know about the newest ones.
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Edited 11/19/2009 6:11 pm by jc21
Greetings from not far away. We have a Morso Squirrel woodstove in a ~750SF space and it is an exceptional stove. The flue is a straight vertical run of about 14 feet and it starts and draws perfectly regardless of the wind, which can be howling at times. The stove heats up quickly and after a short period gives of a helluva lot of heat. The 12" fuel length is not an issue to me, I have an endless supply of framing and trim cutoffs and the heated space is upstairs from my wood shop. This is tight new construction and as far as I can tell there are no combustion air issues.
I'm contemplating the squirrel stove. I'd like it more without the squirrel and with outside combustion air. Nevertheless, it may still fit the bill for us. You're a bit further north from me and the stove works in your 750 sq. ft. .. that's good to hear. Our "living" area is about that size with the rest being bedrooms and baths. I can and will put room heat into the baths so they're no problem except during the power outages. We can deal with those, OK. And we like our bedroom cool.You're the first to say he uses framing cutoffs for heat. I'd think it would be common here on Breaktime.Thanks.
for heat?I use framing cutoffs for kindling!
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We don't need that many BTUs and the space in question is really well insulated. My wife burned the stove for about 3 hours this past weekend, I went in there and it was like a sauna. People with no body fat do that, they feel cold. I can throw a couple of chunks of 2x in there and choke it halfway down, let them burn slowly, and it's plenty of heat. During an average job with a couple of weeks of framing I'll easily accumulate half a winter's worth of scraps. If we frame a house, a year's worth or more. A couple of projects in the shop and suddenly I need to give barrels of scrap to my customers just to get it out of my way.
what everyone else said - -
the combustion air will come from somewhere - if the draft is drawn from behind where you sit, your feet will be cool - if it comes from the other direction you won't notice it -
I burn a Jotul #4 - 16" wood - 18" will fit barely - 20" and you have to stack it at an angle - 10-12" I would find frustrating - very little possibility of getting that size supplied to you, and even if you cut it yourself...well, even after 30 years it takes a lot of discipline on my part to keep the rounds short enough - really, the stove sounds like a coal or coke stove -
as someone mentioned, the rounds will split easily -
I have a friend who had a connection with a sawmill and he got cutoffs from squaring up cants - if you that kind of connection, that stove could be very sweet -
Without on the stove combustion air I figure it will most easily come from one of those one way air intake things that I've yet to put in and know little about. I'll be installing a good size exhaust vent over the cooktop (a DIY project, junkhound) that will need air, so the intake thing can serve both.The stoves I'm looking at are small woodstoves, not coal. They are supposedly good for about 1000 sq. ft. But the literature doesn't say where, in what kind of house, how warm is warm, etc.
I've been playing a similar sort of game with 'multi-fuel' stoves (corn/pellet/etc) this last couple of weeks - I am renovating what was formerly a three season 'sunroom' into a 4 season studio and am going to put an insert in the fireplace for heat - just made the decision and ordered the unit yesterday - there is no perfect unit and the world is full of trade-offs - if you like the style, I can't imagine but what you'll be satisfied with the quality of a Morso - I have a friend who bought the squirrel one back in the 70's - the one with the arched top and an enameled finish - very beautiful, well constructed and way too small for a primary heater in our climate - but fine for where he used it - "there's enough for everyone"
<<The stoves I'm looking at are small woodstoves, not coal. They are supposedly good for about 1000 sq. ft.
But the literature doesn't say where, in what kind of house, how warm is warm, etc.>> I find those small stove to be more work then a larger one. The idea of getting up and tossing a log on every twenty minutes
gets old long before spring arrives. Even if your processing your own wood,
it is more work to cut every single piece down and split it smaller. Then more work stacking etc...
Burn time is reduced also. I'd suggest a stove that can handle 16" lengths and will easily
hold a fire all night. All those conveniences versus a slightly higher efficiency? Better a bit to much stove then to little.
I keep thinking the same thing you said.... that a bit bigger stove would be better than one that turned out to be a pain to load and cut wood for. I ask for "expert" opinion at the wood stove stores, but mostly they are bluffing their way through it. It'd be helpful if the manufacturers gave a rating curve. You know... BTU's at full, then at 3/4, 1/2, 1/4 full. But the stoves probably won't make the 75% efficiency rating at anything other than full bore. That's why I'm asking. Most here are practical application thinkers.One thing I'm contemplating is to buy what I think will be right, and make it good quality. Then if I need to change it out for bigger or smaller I can sell the stove on craig's list. I'd take a money hit, but perhaps not too hard.
One thing I'm contemplating is to buy what I think will be right, and make it good quality.
Good thinking. I'm going from your original post in thinking this will be an auxillary/emergency heat source and will also be a focal point in the room it's in. If you don't like the looks of it, it'll bother you every time you fool with it. If this is not to be your main source of heat, I'd stick to a smaller unit. If over night burns are required, you'll need a larger unit. I would, however, try to find a suitable unit that burns wood longer than 12". One thing that hasn't been mentioned is an ashpan. Not necessary, but makes life easier.
The BTU/effciency ratings are obtained under ideal conditions and it's unlikely those conditions will exist for any length of time in real life. copper p0rn
"One thing that hasn't been mentioned is an ashpan. Not necessary, but makes life easier."I've had three without ash pans, and two with.I'll never have another stove that doesn't have an ashpan!
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Ashpan... yes! Many of the reviews by users back up your feelings. Many curse their bad ashpans.
no kidding! I'm looking at new stoves. you think the ashe pan is a consideration?
what happens if the pan gets over filled? big mess?
yup. Then you just dump the pan and keep going. Till one day you can't put the pan back in and close the door. Then it's hands and knees clean out time.
No kidding. I am a serious wood burner. 3-6 cords a year. Not a big mess if it gets overfull, you just end up with the same kind of mess you normally have with no pan.But do the pan emptying thing regularly and it is SO much easier! Just slide the drawer out, walk outside, and sprinkle fertilizer around the trees, or make the ice on the driveway darker so it isn't slick.Then go back inside and slide the drawer back in.If I let it go too long, I have to use the shovel scooper to get the excess in a hod and carry it out too. When you shovel all that ash, each scoop means a little fine drifting free into the air of the house as you dump it into the hod bucket. Why have that mess? Why work extra every week? It really is a nice thing to have an ash pan.
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Kathy and I live just east of Olympia and have heated with wood for the past 30 winters.
It's hard for me to imagine a house in this climate burning 10 cords a year.
Our last house is about 1800 sq ft and I was mostly drunk when I built it in the 80s so it wasn't super tight by any means. I don't think we ever burned more than 5 cords/year (mostly fir and alder) even when the kids were little and Kathy was a stay at home Mom.
Our new house is smaller and much tighter. We have a small Napolean wood stove that keeps us warm and dry. We thought we'd really enjoy living in a house with a furnace after 25 years of wood heat, but I don't think we'll even turn the furnace on this winter unless we go away for a few days or something.
Nothing like wood heat. At least not here in the Great Northwet.
Edited 11/21/2009 7:24 pm ET by jimblodgett
Thanks for the info, Jim. Is there any particular reason that you chose the Napoleon stove? There's a dealer in Bremerton I can check out. We are going to drive over there to see the Pacific Energy stoves at another dealer. Hearth.com has a lot of good user reviews on that brand.I'm beginning to think that I can't go too far wrong with most anything that I choose as long at it qualifies for the IRS tax credit thing.
No. No particular reason. That one just caught our eye when we went looking. Fits our tastes. Flat black. Basic. Functional. Supposed to heat a house slightly larger than ours and it does a good job.I still lust after those beautiful wood stoves I often see...painted forest green...maybe Vermont Castings? Or some of those European stoves I see at the Environmental Home Store in Seattle...maybe one of these days we'll splurge on something like that. Maybe in the next house. We'll see.
>>Maybe in the next house.
If you're going to be drunk when you build it, let me know, I'll definitely make the trip down! We can run the sawmill some too, right?
Priceless! Please take pictures.
Can I come too? I'll bring some Basil Hayden.
Yeah, heck yeah. Then out of necessity we could maybe invent a keyboard with over sized keys so we can continue to post here online with no fingers...patent that... and retire on the profits. What a country!
Pacific Energy make good stoves. I've had two and installed several others. Regency makes very similar line. The differences are very minor: slightly larger glass and better damper on the Regency, but I don't think I've any real complaint about either. The double shell means you can install them very close to the wall, and the flat top gets hot enough to boil water or cook on during a power failure.
Thanks. This is good to know.
What island are you on?
I lived on Orcas for several years. If it was me I would get something capable of heating the
whole house in the dead of winter. When I was there the power would go out all the time. Then you had the
inevitable ferry problems leaving everyone stranded. I know it doesn't get cold like it does here (or many other places) but
you do need heat for at least four months out of the year.That is
serious enough to invest in a fully functional woodstove. I'm not familiar with the stove you mentioned, but it sounds like
some Euro models I've seen that load vertically. I've never used one
but that arraignment just doesn't sound like something for a primary heat source.
More of a Urbanite or "Summer" resident's focal point. I could be totally wrong, but I doubt it. Outside air is not a serious concern until your house rather
tight. Until then I wouldn't loose sleep over it.
I'm on Bainbridge Island, just next door to Seattle.I think you are right regarding the usage. We do want to use it all winter to keep the electric bill in check. Plus we simply like the idea of heating with wood. I want a stove that is not a total pain to prepare wood for, load, and otherwise use. The Morso stoves have a very nice ashpan. Thanks for the input.
Outside air issue can be solved with 4-6" galv. ducting or flex duct.
connect to the outside with a wired screened opening, duct though the crawl to the stoves location , come up through the floor with a heat register boot and install an operable register cover (meaning you can open and close it).
Providing a combustion air inlet right at the stove means less drafts from windows and doors.
Yea, I thought of this. I think this has been the standard for many years prior to attached air intakes. I could certainly try it without too much fuss.
The outside air intake will make a difference. Combustion requires a large amount of air, all of it coming from the outside. It it comes directly from an air intake, you aren't heating it first. If it comes from infiltration, not only are you burning heated air, you are making the outer envelop colder with infiltration. I used to cut all the wood for a friends house, 10 cords a year, long term average. I suggested an outside air intake, which was used for all but start up air. 7 cords a year average, long term. House has since been tightened up to use less. This is over a nearly 30 year period, burning the same type of wood. And good luck finding somebody to cut 10"-12" long wood.
Yep. I'm fairly well convinced that I want a stove with outside combustion air. Most of the high efficiency stoves now have it as an add-on. The works are built in to the stove and a separate pipe is run at the time of installation.I can't imagine preparing and burning 10 cords of wood a year.
What a country!
As they say "Only in America!"
Had on of those green Vermont Casting in Utah, nice stove and the finish was as good the day we sold as the day it was new.
Pricey though.
Joe H