Tim posted a picture of a 16′ work platform which is impressive. I’m concerned about it’s legality regarding OHSA standards.
Does anyone know if there are limits and special requirements for these elevated platforms for forklifts?
This is my first year working with lifts on a regular basis and I’d like to build something or buy something.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information…don’t listen to me..just ask Gabe!
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Im interested as well... in addition to Blues question, any suggestion for a lift for a painter, and exterior trim work?
I was thinking about shopping for a lift truck but I dont know if thats the best option. Renting a genie or something is about 2k for 2 weeks, they wont drop off for less.
Pump jacks are kind of impractical, and 40ft aluminums are satan... especially when I have to do the "look mom no hands" with a sprayer in one hand, spray shield in other and brush hanging off my guilty pet monkey.
Check this out...............
http://www.gradall.com/index.asp?src=/Excavators/home.html
I invented it.
I've wondereed about these things too.
Around here it's pretty common for guys to have work platforms that are 16 to 20' wide. They use them either on rough terrain forklifts or tractor loaders.
My concern with them is depending on hydraulics. If you break a hose, everybody gets a fast trip straight down to the ground.
Boss, my bigger concern is with tipping sideways. I gotta believe that walking out to the end of that 16' footer will cause a significant amount of "bounce". The counterweight system just isn't designed to prevent that type of torque, but keep in mind, I'm not exactly the guy that you should consult with on engineering issues.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
"...my bigger concern is with tipping sideways."
Many of the ones I've seen have "slots" the fork tines slide into. That would keep them from tipping all the way over. But they'd still have some flex in them, I suspect.
Next time there's a war in Europe, the loser has to keep France.
Boss, I don't mean that the platform tips...I mean that the entire machine will tip!
They are quite bouncy when fully extended.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
One or 2 guys on the end of a platform tipping a whole machine over?I don't think that would be likely. Unless the wheelbase of the machine was pretty narrow and it was on really soft ground.
Diagonally parked in a parallel universe.
Boss, I think it's likely! That's what I'm trying to get to the bottom of!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
anybody have a loose estimate as to how much one of these sky jack lifts cost? You can tell the type you mean with a price range.
zendo,
They are pretty much like everything else, how much do want to spend. I use a Cat TH63 with cab, side tilt, stabilizers, 3 way steering.
202002 CATERPILLAR TH63, S/N: 5WM07625, 638 hours, 6000 lbs, OROPS/FOPS, 6000 LB CAP, 41' LIFT, FRAME LEVELING, SIDE TILT. $75,60002 CATERPILLAR TH63, S/N: 5WM07625, 638 hours, 6000 lbs, OROPS/FOPS, 6000 LB CAP, 41' LIFT, FRAME LEVELING, SIDE TILT. $75,600
You can rent these things for around 2k per month, or purchase a basic 38' lift (ready to work) from about 17 to 18K to about as much as you want to spend.
k
thank you for responding that message had been there forever. Just wanted a round about or range so I knew what I was up against... its hard to find prices on anything with a big tag.
I just need a personal lift for painting and trim work... maybe 40ft or around that is good I dont think I would want jobs much higher.
I'm reasonably sure the forklift folks have some charts or formulas for safe lifting of off-balance loads. Probably even in that tube where everyone stuffs their empties.
Blue,
I just saw this thread. Since I have a 16' platform, I'll comment. Here are a couple of closer pictures.
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4541023/70659401.jpg
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4541023/70659398.jpg
I talked to the guy who certified us for driving forklifts about platforms. He said that (and he used to be an OSHA inspector) if there weren't controls in the platform, you needed to have someone in the machine and a way to communicate ie, walkietalkie. Those scissorlifts, or Genie lifts are manned from the box.
Hydraulic failure is a concern, and that is why our machine is checked regularly by us and a forklift mechanic. Hydraulic failure is also a concern with scissorlifts and Genielifts.
I did some research and rails, fall restraint are all outlined and there are ways to comply. With our 16' platform we have restraints and we are certified drivers, and the drivers who drive using the forklift are not allowed to move the machine while persons are in the box. The lift has to be stable, level and not overtaxed. Walking out on the outsides in the 16' platform will not tip over a 20,000 lb machine unless you are fully extended and we will do that under no circumstances.
It's all about being safe and thinking ahead and being cautious.
Tim, I wouldnt worry about hydraulic failure as much as tipping.
I didn't understand the restraints that you mentioned. What are they?
And....if extending all the way is dangerous, when does in not become dangerous? Are there charts avaialable?
I like the pics. I liked the platform...would you do anything different?
Can you stick the forks in the side and lift it from there? Can you walk out on the end if you stick it from the side?
Lots of questions....
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
We have harnesses that we can clip to the platform if we get up high. To be honest, I wouldn't get up too high in the platform. I'm concervative when it comes to my life or someone elses. I do not want to negatively affect anyones life (including their families). The highest we've had the platforms so far is the top of a second story. We get the machine as close was we can because the machines rated capacities start falling when you get boomed out.
You can grab our platfroms from the ends. We do not use them in this manner, that is just to load them onto trucks or to make moving them around the site easier.
The website for gradall that was posted earlier has charts for every machine. You can see when the capacity starts to fall off. I can't find the chart for our machine, but you can see in the link what it looks like. On our machine, it is right next to the chair. The pages are attached so the operator can look at them while he is in the machine.
http://www.gradall.com/telehandlers/pdfs/LULL_944E-42_SS.pdf
Modern rough terrain forklifts and manlifts, ie Lull, JLG, Cat ect. have holding valves in the hydraulic systems to prevent loads from falling if a line or hose breaks. As for using large homebuilt or manufactured baskets, I personally would not go up in one. I would never trust anyone, no matter how well trained ect. to move ME up and down in a basket attached to a rough terrain forklift. Rent a manlift designed for that purpose. But even in a manlift designed for that purpose, I have seen many lifts damaged or destroyed by improper use. ( I work as a mechanic that works on JLG's and Lulls and Cat rough terrain forklifts.
I'm still trying to convince my warehouse manager to let me use a Hyster Manlift for 2wks, pretty please w/sugar on top.
He ain't going for it.
Drat.Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchyand will be deliciouswith about a pound of Samaki chocolates. (rough week)
Have you tried for the weekends? I suppose transportation for repeated trips could be prohibitive.
Weekends wouldn't be enough time for me and he just gives me this LOOK whenever I try to bring up the subject. Perhaps I should just wait for the company's 2005 Christmas party. And make certain I get his signature on the contract <g>.
You are correct about the transportation part, tho. I don't have a hitch on my Volksy either. Maybe I can borrow my brother's trailer.
Studies have shown a majority of pastry chefs usedto be architects. (Alton Brown on NPR)
Edited 12/19/2004 10:09 pm ET by PLANTLUST
That's good to know. Personally if the Machine is level, I don't mind getting on the platform and going straight up 10' or even 20', although 20' is pushing it for my bravado. I understand people who wouldn't want to though.
For us framers, we are used to walking plates up high, building staging up high, or in my case I learned to side off ladder jacks. So a platform feels a lot safer than any of that. Thanks for the info, I do appreciate it.
So which machines do you think are the best in the 8000-10000lb range? We have a 1998 Ingersoll Rand VR-90B and it has just been great so far.
I am a bit biased on that as I work on Cat's and Lulls. So naturally I would say either of the two. But it depends on personal likes,ect. Also how good is your local dealer for your current Lift,if the dealer is good to work with,takes care of you and is fair ect. I would stay with whatever brand he sells. Most of the big name lifts out there are good. It all boils down to dealer service, price, location to dealer. A 8 to 10k size Lull runs about 90k to 100k.The Cat 8 to 10k size is a little less depending on options. There is also alot of used ones out there if you look carefully.
blue,
they'll tip forward for sure. I tested that theroy myself a few months bask when I had 2 men on a platform and boomed out full length from one end of a garage to the other. They were installing the cornice so whn we started out the boom was end. At the other end, the machine tipped forward and both men climbed off at the same time to tip the machine back upright.
I asked my dealer how you know when the geometry is unsafe. His reply was simply "you'll know". Glad it was only a 3 or 4 foot drop for the guys in the platform and the motion was slow and steady.
k
To get new guys to understand the "idea" of leverage, I'll grab a fairly good stack of sheathing and boom it straight out close to the ground. If you go slow enough when you start getting out there, there is a point wher you can get the back tires to come off the ground a few inches. I tell them to watch the back tires, then get them in the lift and have them do it and "feel" the machine's center of gravity move.
We've talked about getting our tires filled with foam. It would guarantee that they won't ever get flat, and it'll add about 400lbs to each tire and the machine will be heavier. We are still debating that.
Tim, we ordered our with filled tires. I didn't want to have down time while we were waiting for a tire repair.
I still would be most worried about tipping sideways.
I like the idea of a wide work platform..but my spider senses tells me it's a ticking time....
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
I totally understand what you are feeling. But let me put it in perspective a little bit. Our machine is a 10,000lb capacity machine. That is if you don't boom out and you just pic materials up and basically go up and down. Once you boom out, you lose capacity. Our 16' platform weighs about 800lbs. When we put material in it, we do not put too much. It depends on what we are doing. If we are framing in a gable end, then we'll lean up the 2x4, or 2x6 against the house (I prefer to use 20' and cut them. I handle a lot less peices) and we'll put maybe 10 7/16 4x8 OSB in the platform. If we aren't sheathing the gable, then it's just one guy, his saw, gun and some nails. In my case I weight 220 so rounding the numbers, the platform, me and the materials is less than 1500 lbs. If I don't boom out very far (less than 10') then I am perfectly safe. I can go up without losing much capacity and I haven't gone out far enough to lose enough capacity to affect the machine. The other thing we do is place the platform as close to the house without touching the house. The controls in our machine are pretty sensitive. I can have someone boom me right up to the house (within 3"). I have a rail on my sides and a 3' rail at the back and the house at my front. Its a great setup.
Take a good look at this picture http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/5177572/74533616.jpg I am the one cutting, the platform is boomed out about 4' (if you look at the mast). I am well within my machines capacity. I have 2 baskets, one on each end that I can put nails, H-clips, extra whatever we need. I have a bench at the top of the platform, and then "arms" under that that I can store scrap 2x. I used your technique on those valleys for cutting sheathing (2x4 stick with nails spaced the diagonal of the pattern). Worked like a charm and made me look really cool :-)
So, tell me about your Skytrac. When did you finally decide to get a forklift? Do you own it? What are its ratings? How do you like it?
We paid $40,000 for ours about a year and a few months ago. It is just so valuable. When we sheathe a floor we can grab all the subfloor and just start sheathing, no packing up to the second floor. It's great. We have gotten so we cut sections of the roof on the ground (stick framing) and boom the whole thing up, ridges, commons, hips/valleys, jacks, etc. Then while a couple guys stack, I cut the next section, grab it with the forklift and put the next section in. It has really been a great buy.
I have to go to the gym now (remember I'm 220 and shouldn't be :-)) Talk at you later.
Tim, that platform looks awesome...I just have visions of the guys sending it up the the max 42' and then all walking over to the side to look over.....
Were buying 8042 (8000# 42' reach). We have a 12' boom, a bucket, an articulating boom and filled tires. We paid about 90k new this year. That machine easily replaces one man...maybe two. It makes us money...doesn't cost us any.
I never thought I would buy a lift, becaue I thought I preferred a boom truck. I already had a boom truck, but needed a lift to do a couple of multi units ( we did a 12, and 8 and a 6 unit this spring). We rented at first, but quickly figured out that we never want to be without a machine again.
If I had to do it again, I might seriously consider selling the boom truck and buying a 10054 which is 10000 pounds lift and 54' reach. Add a 15' boom and we can set anything on any two story from the front of the house. There's a guy that was framing in the multi unit projects that sets the entire house from the front with that machine.
I do like having a boom truck onsite though. Check out the Table Boogerin thread to see why.
I'm going to contact my Skytrak sales guy to get the technical lowdown on platforms.
About the only thing I would do differnt to your rig is to line the tops of your rails with wood. I'd want the luxury of being able to tack/nail stuff to it. I like the boxes and I love the size....I'd just be scared that my whacky crazy partner would tip the entire mess over...he'd find a way!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Tim....I'm jealous...I might bring my welder to work and start building me one...
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
That pic was the first time we had used the 16' platform. Now we take a 18' 2x12 and set it on top of the platfrom to cut on. I've already hit the metal a couple of times. One time took every tooth off a marathon blade and the other time didn't take any off :-)
What made you settle on Skytrac? I'm just curious. We bought our Ingersoll Rand because a salesman suggested it. I did some research on it and it seemed to be a rugged machine. Yours looks nice and shiny :-)
Around here, 90% of the residential machines are Skytrak. That in itself lead us to do the research first on them. We didn't want to have the odd unit that no one could service....
My ex parner Forest used one for five years and never had a serious problem. He upgraded this year with another used one. Forest is one of those kind of guys that would put a brand new tool on the shelf if it doesn't perform. If Forest says a tool or a machine is okay, I don't even bother to ask why....I'm in!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Blue,
I'm really glad it's working out for you. This is what I always say to one of the subs or a neighbor who asks about the forklift "it is more reliable than an employee, never talks back, stronger than all of us combined, as long as he is fed, he works, and he has the same taste in music that I do". :-) When we got the forklift, a 3 man crew could easily frame and side what a 4 man crew could do.
We love the forklift and we regularly write and sing songs about it :-) We are nerds like you can't believe.
>> If you break a hose, everybody gets a fast trip straight down to the ground.In the case of a broken hose, the down speed would be limited by the size of the hole in the hose connector. The platform wouldn't be likely to come down much faster than it would under operator control. To get a really fast trip down, the hydraulic cylinder would have to split open.
When a hydraulic hose goes, it can let off a lot of volume in a hurry. I'm not talking about a pinhole leak - I'm talking a major rupture. Like a guy getting killed when a combine header falls down on them without warning. This kind of stuff happens.
PETA: People Eating Tasty Animals.
I recently concluded a case where a guy working for a painting contractor was using a Lull aerial lift to work on the steel of a bridge on an interstate. The "work platform" was an old wood pallet which placed on the forks of the lift. Natually he wasn't wearing a safety harness tied off to the lift or the bridge and, when the pallet broke, he fell about 30' and broke nearly every bone in his body. The lab results showed coke in his blood...After he received comp, he sued the project engineers and the company which rented the lift for not telling him that this was a dumb thing to do. And he supposedly was the job foreman.
I think you guys are insane for ever stepping foot on anything like that. Who designed the platform? Is there a PE stamp on it? What's the safety system on the Lull that's supporting the platform? Who's the genius driving and/or positioning the Lull while you work up on the platform?
Why not just get the equipment that's made for the job? There are aerial boom lifts available that have a basket that can be maneuvered from inside the basket, and are specifically made for this purpose.
I don't have my OSHA book with me at the moment, but I can pretty much guarantee that platforms like you've discussed are a major no-no.
Bob
The 16'ers are on shaky ground as far as OSHA is concerned. We do a lot of commercial work and we still use these platforms, but as little as possible. We have one 12' model which seems safer. OSHA wants to see the following:
Platform securely fastened to the lift
Operator in the forklift at all times
Occupants of platform in harness and tied off to the platform
Proper safety rails all around, toeboards etc
Ugh, so where is the benefit again??
We were told by the regional OSHA guy that they dont go to rez sites around here, so anything goes. Some guys have 5x24's and 12x12's for porch areas etc.
If you have a 16'er by the end, extended all the way out, with 10 sheets of ply and 2 big carps on there, its possible to tip if you both walk clear to the far end (yep, it happened). But under normal circumstances, no problems
Thanx cchipper for that info.
My old partner Forest once told me that Sky Trak's were the only ones certified by OSHA becasue of some internal stabilizing systems. He told me that a few years ago, so maybe the other companys caught up.
The sky trak guy lent us an 8' platform that was osha approved but we didn't use it much.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
OK, per OSHA, here's a few possible sections that apply:
1926.453 (a) (2)- Aerial lifts may be "field modified" for uses other than those intended by the manufacturer providedthe modification has been certified in writing by the manufacturer or by any equivalent entity, such as a nationally recognized testing laboratory.....and to be at least as safe as the equipment was before modification.
1926.602 (c) (ii) No modifications or additions which affect the capacity or safe operation of the equipment shall be made without the manufacturer's written approval.
I'm sure there are others that could be brought into play.
I think the days of lift cages are coming crashing to an end, go try and rent a 40' extension ladder for an example of where we are going. We bought a manlift and genie-lift[vertical hydralic lift in place], and still rent aerial lifts...picked up a safety officer and that ended all the other options. Harnesses in all sizes for the jlg's and buckets. I hate working out of a bucket no room for tools,a few missing brain cells and I'm always forgetting about the dang harness, taking a step towards the truck and wahoo...