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I am a carpentry apprentice working and living in Canada. I am interested in working abroad ie. Europe. I was curious if anyone has had experience working somewhere other than North America?
If so how much do construction styles differ from country to country?
I know even between canada/us there are subtle differences.
Any info would be greatly appretiated.
C Fry.
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chris- check with Raetheon Polar Services out of Colorado. I'm not sure on the spelling but a web search should find it for you. They offered me a job last winter but I couldn't commit to eight months. Also there is a listing on this site for framers in South Korea. Good luck. Matt Hambrick
*Chris,I am living and working in Amsterdam in the Netherlands.Yeah I know what you are thinking "alright man amsterdam that is totally cool".Well it is okay but working in a foreign country can be a real pain in the ass.Getting legal work here for "labor work"is pretty difficult and making connections for underground work (zwart werk) is not so easy. Maybe canadians have a different treaty here than americans.Work methods are sometimes very different also.For starters most buildings (99%) are made of bricks so you can forget about framing a wall on the deck and tilting it up.Tools are also very expensive ( I brought my own and use a converter).The main thing for me is the concepts of working and the ways of doing things.Speed and efficiency, so coveted and demanded in american style construction and pretty foreign ( excuse the pun) concepts here. A new foundation can take 6 months to complete.Sometimes they do things here that drive me nuts. I know there is a better way but no one wants to know.I know this all sounds pretty negative but there are a lot of positive sides to living here. Talk to your consulate and if you need some help here,let me know .Good luck. Dan
*How are the wages over there, Dan? How long have you been there?
*DangitI thought this thread was going to be about successful pimping ventures.
*Dan, I would also like information about living and working in the Netherlands. My wife has spent a lot of time there, and I would like to get a break from America for a while. That was one of the places on our short list. Please can you provide more information. either here, or e-mail me directly [email protected] thanks A
*Hello,In a couple of weeks I will have been here 2 years.The wages are lower than in the states but for the majority of dutch people their major expense ( housing)is very low because They have a very strong rent control system here.They day you turn 18 you sign up with many of the large "housing corporations",who own much of the housing stock.It can take 7 years to get to the top of the list but once there you get an apartment for a long as you like for around $175. As a foriegner I would pay $1200 for the same place.That is why I am buying a house in order to compete on the same level.Wage wise I am working under the table now( in a historic monument built in 1632) for around $13 an hour.That is 70% less than what I made in San Francisco.However my plumber seems to charge around $40 an hour but that is including 20% value added tax.I am in the process of starting my own company and will be charging about that amount. Living here is not cheap.Going to a movie is the same price though I feel groceries are not so expensive as the states.However it is fun living and working someplace else and I am glad I did this.
*Luka,You da bomb man!!!you physic or something?I'd suggest that great minds think alike but one or both of us could be insulted.abroad is definitely not PC but then niether is pimpingOh wellMr T
*Hi Chris There is a company in San Francisco called Bechtel,I think they are still around,they used to work worldwide with U.S.worker,s.I am from England now living &working in upstate N.Y.. If you are going abroad by yourself you will need visa,s & workpermit,s,they are hard to get. I have worked in 3 countries, each job was for a British group,A 12mth contract,they supplied room and board and airfare plus salary of course. Commercial carpentry is metal studs &concrete formwork,residential is a lot differant, no framed houses all brick & block,with interior walls made from paramount (4by8 sheetrock with eggboxfilling,or stramit walls3by8 compressed straw)and the usual2by4 stud walls. I hope this is helpful to you ¬ to late. Phil Mellor
*Chris, I'm a New Hampshire carpenter who's been working in the Wellington and Wairarapa areas of New Zealand since I arrived here in Dec. 1998. I've never been without work the whole time. The wages are the same or better than in NH. The big firms won't hire you unless you have permanent residency,as I do,but the "one man shows" will. The "underground cash economy" is bigger here than in the States on account of the exorbident price of everything here and the GST nightmare. They build a bit differently here, for wind and earthquakes primarily,not frost depth or snow load, or cold. They don't build their own wall frames,they get trucked in, all roof trusses,(only the old timers know how to cut a roof,and marginally at best),almost all corrigated iron roofs,and finish details that will make a trim carpenter want to murder.There isn't a wall, ceiling,or floor in this whole country that even gets near plumb,level,square or straight on account of shitty lumber,too bloody many incompentant generations of do-it-yourselfers, rotting and consequently sinking foundation piles, and utter carelessness. The apprentice program here is a joke(I actually was signed up, having 12yrs of solid American experience under my belt!)But the up side is that the Kiwis are a good sort of people,they know how to party, you can't help but like them, and when you finally meet a good carpenter, he's probably going to make you look like a loser. Any more questions, just post them here.
*Americandownunder,My mom just got back from a trip to your country, said it was tremendously beautiful and thought it would be a great place to live.All I want to know about right now is the fishing, I know there's supposed to be good trout fishing, but what about ocean?Oh yeah, mom said she saw penguins there. What's that about?
*Mad Dog; Good of you to take the time to email. I guess after 3 plus yrs. here,I've developed a bad attitude towards the place,can't help it. Frustration is running at an all time high. No point in listing all my complaints,as I hate complainers myself. Anyway I'm out of here in late June. Yes, the country is beautiful,in its own way. The land is hilly, running down to fertile bottomland. The original forests were all felled to a tree in the late 1800s,so aside from the state forests and pasture boundaries,trees(proper ones like in the East)are as scarce as hens teeth.The original native timber species-Matai,Rimu,Totara,Kauri- take several hundred yrs. to mature, so the main timber species we use are Radiata Pine and Macracarpa(Monterey Cypress)introduced from California,Doug Fir-which they call "oregon" obviously introduced from our Pacific Northwest and British Columbia,Blue Gum and Selignia,both of the Eucalyptus family,introduced from Australia,Jarrah,a super hardwood grown in Australia, and Kwila, a dark brown and very dense hardwood imported from Fiji or Australia.The mountains here are basically covered by a temperate rain forest,similar to the Cascades. The "bush",as the Kiwis call the "forest" is so dense that you never walk off the trail. As for the fishing,it's supposed to be excellent.I went surfcasting for the first time this past weekend. The key here is to hook into a local who knows the spots,otherwise you're just "whistling Dixie". We went on the Wairarapa coast on the southeast coast of the North Island.It's a wicked dangerous coastline,loaded with rock reefs just offshore,that kept hanging up my line.I went through 100 yds. or so of 25lb. test and 2 or 3 bait rigs. Cut mullet,squid, or anything small you can catch and cut up,a 2oz. plus sliding sinker,and a 4/0 to 8/0 hook is standard issue here.
*Mad Dog; I ran out of typing space on account of that novel I just wrote. All the saltwater fish they pull up here are very good eating. The local paper just did an article on two surfcasters who were fishing at a place on the coast a fair bit south of where I just was called Lake Ferry. In 2 days they pulled in 46 fish! 26 kawawai,a brown shark, groper,and can you believe this-a salmon! Forget all North American rhyme and reason,it doesn't apply here! The trout fishing is supposed to be excellent.
*Mad Dog, I was born here. I still live here. The trout fishing is some of the best in the world. Taupo has some great stuff. However I have seen many a spot in the bush that would have any trout fisherman drooling. The great thing about these places is they dont get fished much because it can take a few hours to a few days walk to get to them. result is lots of BIG fish. Americandownunder, I dont know what bit of bush you were in, but I spent most weekends for a long time out bush, hunting and indulging in a bit of fishing. With the exception of using the track to get to the hut, I always went well away from the well travelled areas. I had no problem getting around, covered big distances some days with a load on too. It all depends on your defintion of i impenetrable I suppose. If your used to walking through bush that resembles the local park.............The Wairarapa coast has some excellent fishing, as does most of the New Zealand coastline. I learned from experience though, the wrong bait/gear,for the time of year/species targeted..... might as well go home. Last week a guy fishing off the beach caught and landed the biggest black marlin ever caught in New Zealand waters. It is all there, just depends on how you go about it.I am a carpenter. I dont know about the outfit you work for, or the houses you work on, But MINE are i alwaysstraight, level,plumb. I go to a lot of trouble to ensure they are and stay that way. I will put my finishing work up against yours any time. I take pride in my work, as do most of the kiwi carpenters I know and work with.
*Americandownunder, I just re read your 1st post. I am most definitely not an old timer, but I can cut my own roof framing when I need to, and do a damn good job of it.Dont you get rot or sinking piles in the US? Most of the houses I worked on in Wellington were sited on rock, so where all the sinking houses come from I wouldnt know.I met a sawmill owner who was sending our Macrocarpa to the US as fast as he could cut it. He couldnt keep up with demand. A lot of our pine is exported to Japan. If its so crappy how come everyone else wants to get it?I felt the need to respond in this way because you seem to have it so wrong. A shame really. This is a great place to live. I like Americans, but if feeling so frustrated here, why did you come in the first place and stay as long as you did??
*AJinNZ; I didn't mean to strike a raw nerve! Really though,I've never worked on a Kiwi house that had even one square corner or one plumb wall or door frame.If I'm a lousy finish man,then why have all 4 outfits I've worked for put me on finishing? I'd like to see you find your way out of a New Hampshire back country deer stand after dark and in a snowstorm.Why do I also find myself,and not my Kiwi workmates,figuring&cutting stairs&rafters & laying cedar shingles? Mate, it's all what you're used to.
*AJinNz;I don't want to get into a fight with you over this.My opinions aren't worth it.I hate to sound like a traitor,but I'd take any of my Kiwi workmates over any American I've ever worked with any day.As for my extended stay here,sometimes you make big personal concessions in life because of the woman you love.(She's a Kiwi)If you don't hate me any more after my last posting,I'd like to shout you a few beers sometime.
*AmericandownunderYou didnt hit a raw nerve, your posts just seemed to me to be quite one sided. I was merely expressing my view that all is not that bad, mostly quite the opposite.If you work on old houses a lot, you will get all the corners out of square/plumb etc. That I will admit. The simple reason is, they were framed in Rimu. The timber was typically worked whilst still wet ( that is the reason for all the studs being set into a shallow mortice......helps stop twisting. ) Dry heart Rimu can often be like trying to work iron. Understandibly it moves as it dries out. They had their reasons and used what they had. Now we have better and it is dry.I didnt say your finish work was bad, I said I would put mine up against yours in response to the comment i finish details that would want to make a trim carpenter murder.I would love to work in the US and do finish work all the time, unfortunately that doesnt exist here. But we do have carpenters who do an excellent job of all aspects of the trade. I consider myself fortunate to have been trained by someone who could litteraly do anything and do it very well.Much to my sadness most stairs here are made in the joinery shop and trucked out to the job. I wish more were made on site. Mine were always withing 2mm all round. The reason being I was taught how do make them, the right way.Not all Kiwi carpenters are inept in these areas.Like you say, its what your used to. I get around in the bush without ever having used or taken a compass, never been lost. I dont follow the tracks, all the good stuff is way further in anyway. I wouldnt find my way round at night in a snowstorm anywhere, i would you?The Kiwi hunting method is to go and find the deer, not wait till it comes to us. different ways for different places.
*AmericandownunderDude, I am not the least bit offended. Not in any way at all.i I would take any of my Kiwi workmates over any American Ive ever worked with...Thank you for the compliment. really.The things we do for love eh?I dont hate you, why would I? You just gave your opinion, no biggie. On some points I didnt agree. Ever heard the expression " No Wucking Furries"? I would love the oportunity to have that beer. I will buy you a few too.Email me, we might be able to set that up before you go if you want.regardsAJ
*AJ,thanks for the enlightenment!My Kiwi experience here has made me into a much more flexible and skilled tradesman than I would have ever become back home.Building in the States,and I'm going to get alot of crap for this,is much more assembly line-on new homes anyway.When you see how easy things come together there,you'll understand me.Mind you,a California production framer and a New England custom home builder(more crap)are as different in ways and means as we are to each other. I'll continue
*AmericandownunderI am liking you more and more......
*I've been to the JLC show in Providence,Rhode Island and sadly saw a negative(more crap)attitude from a Pennslyvania(more crap-it's the only way to live!)carpenter who sighed in disgust at me(thinking I was a West Coaster till he saw I was a fellow Northeasterner)when I asked him a question after his talk.I learned West Coast production techniques exclusively from Finehombuilding publications,but found them not understood or welcomed in New Hampshire. Sometimes,mate,it's just the way it is.
*AJ;Reckon we're online at the same time! Freaky! Wish you were a kinky lady. Then I'd be excited! That beer? Are you in Wellington? I live in Masterton.Lived in Wellington the first yr. Bought an affordable house over here.Will go into Wellington any chance I get. Love the Celtic music at Molly Malones. Normal people(non pincushions)are my thing. Get sackeyed up, make a fool of myself,get yelled at,hopefully crash somewhere in Wellington,get yelled at again,brunch on Cuba St.
*AmericandownunderI am in Christchurch. Spent a long time in or near Wellington though.I think we could organise that beer. At least your in the same country.Yes, we were posting at the same time, and fortunately I am not any kind of kinky. I noticed a difference in building methods in the move from Wellington to here, not a big hop so I didnt think things would change, but they did. Seems each area has its little ways and dont like to change them.Before I came here, I never saw or worked with lath and plaster. Here, half the houses I work on have the damn stuff. It would have to be one of the worst things..........After building in Wellington where everything is on a hill and the wind up there screams all day, the flat land and easy truck access is heaven. Building in these conditions is soooooo easy. they dont know how good they got it.
*AJ;This is getting so easy.My sister-in-law and mother-in-law live in Christchurch.Looks like we can hook up the next time my wife and I fly down.I haven't been there since Nov.'99,but my wife was there several times between last Sept.and Dec. because my mother-in-law shifted down from Lower Hutt to move in with my wifes sister.I was back home (New Hampshire,Connecticut,South Carolina, Florida)at the time. I haven't gotten back into the swing of things here yet.(Explains my attitude in the 1st. post).
*AJ,a few questions,mate,if you don't mind.How did you hook into Finehombuilding? What do you think of either the magazine or website? What do you think of the JLC site? What's your opinion,don't sugar coat it, of the American builders/chippies you've known or the guys who post here? If you get the magazine,what do you think of our methods,tools, & materials? Thanks