An unnoticed toilet leak over time caused the floor underneath to begin to rot and that caused the tile to lose its bond and come loose. So, I removed the toilet and the tile and am in the process of removing the flooring around the toilet in order to replace it followed by new tile.
However, the flange is glued solid to the waste pipe and cannot be removed by itself. That, of course, is hampering the removal of the flooring. I ruled out leaving the pipe in place and cutting the flooring into two halves so the replacement has a seam running to the middle of the pipe – I want a solid piece of plywood running across the floor with a hole cut in the middle for the waste pipe.
The waste pipe is 3″ ABS type 1 Schedule 40 black pipe. Other than the vertical drop beneath the floor, there’s a 90 elbow and a run of about 15″ to a larger ABS waste line coming down from upstairs which feeds into a cast iron pipe leading outside to my septic tank.
I’m thinking that cutting the 3″ pipe in the middle of that 15″ run and rebuilding the line up to the level of the basement floor would be the best/easiest way to go. I assume there is a collar that can be cemented to the stub and to the new pipe running back up to the toilet and a new flange attached at that point.
Anyone have a better idea or see a problem with the plan?
I think that inadequate support for the 3″ pipe was the initial problem that caused the seal to be broken and the leaking to occur – this dates back to when the house was built. I’m planning to install additional blocking in the flooring around the area of the toilet to surround the pipe and to stiffen the floor and, more importantly, to install additional support for the pipe to make sure it doesn’t have a chance to move again in the future. The joint at the end of that 15″ run to the larger waste pipe seems solid with no flexing or movement .
So, how much different is it to work ABS from PVC? Is it beyond the skills of a HO with some general plumbing experience that I should from the outset call in my plumber? I’m under the impression that I cannot simply replace the cut out ABS section with PVC – correct? I’ve done a fair amount of work successfully with PVC and copper but I’ve never worked ABS.
Is ABS glued up similar to PVC? I believe there is a cement made specifically for ABS and that you don’t use cleaner beforehand like the purple PVC cleaner – correct?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Replies
abs is easier, just use abs glue, cut the abs below the toilet flange, get a new 3" abs coupling and flange. Resupport with wire tape around the pipe to the floor joists.
OK, thanks. No cleaner, huh? Good, one less thing to buy.Griff
Your thinking and your plan sound very good to me. ABS a little easier to work with than PVC because it doesn't require a primer before applying the cement/glue.
You'll need a coupling to connect the two pieces of ABS with the new flange.
Get all your pieces together before cutting, so that you'll be able to measure the coupling, to determine approximately how far down to cut off the old waste pipe.
Use plenty of fresh cement and follow the instructions on the can about making up fittings.
I've been struggling with a plumbing repair on an old laundry sink, between other jobs, for a couple of days. I sure wish I could do it in ABS.
Thanks for the info. Answered my questions.
Just wish I didn't have to buy a whole (probably) 10' length of pipe. Don't suppose they sell it by the foot.Griff
Jgriff: Don't forget that the flange sets flush with the FINISHED floor, and needs to be screwed down to the sub-floor; being unfastened may have caused your prob. in the first place, luck.
"If all else fails, read the directions"
Thanks for the reply.
If I understand you correctly, in my case, the top surface of the flange should be installed so it sits flush with the tile surface.
And it should rest on and be screwed into the top surface of the plywood floor.
Correct?
So the tiles should butt up against the edge (or be close to the edge if not actually touching) of the flange so the toilet can rest on them when mounted over the waste pipe. I guess that means that the tile should be the thickness of the flange resting on the plywood.
The old flange was screwed down to the plywood. But the waste pipe had some flexion in it when I finally uncovered it down in my previously finished basement. And it showed stains from the long time flow of liquid (well, mostly liquid) down the vertical part till it dripped off from the elbow). Nice, huh?
Griff
If you got my e-mail, I will clarify more, the flange goes on top of the tile and screws thru the tile and into the sub-floor, hope this is clear.
"If all else fails, read the directions"
Got it, thanks. Sent a reply.
This post confirms what I was thinking in my email reply.
Thanks again. I appreciate all the help.Griff
"flange goes on top of the tile and screws thru the tile and into the sub-floor, hope this is clear."
I've never seen a flange mounted on top of the tile. It is usually seated on a piece of plywood the same depth as the tile + mortar and underlayment so that the bottom of the flange is flush with the finished tile. Wouldn't seating it on the tile mean drilling six holes through the tile? That sounds like a lot of work and a recipe for cracked tile.
fingersandtoes: If you are setting a single toilet it may be to your advantage to cut a shim for under the flange, but if you are setting hundreds of toilets at a time the extra labor would kill you.
Drilling thru tile is not that hard if you are set up with a working pattern. Take my word for it, thats the most commom way to set a toilet flange, luck.
"If all else fails, read the directions"
It must be a regional thing. I've never seen it and I've worked on a lot of large condo projects. Around here when you plumb a tioilet the first thing you do is locate, set and shim the flange. This occurs during the rough in plumbing stage. They come with caps so the drains can be filled to test. I still don't see how you save labour by having to cut the pipe and install the flange after tiling.
If you are in a situation where a stack test is required (a lot of areas don't require them) the flange is glued on at the proposed height of the finished floor leaving the flange loose so the tile setter can slide the tile under the flange, the flange is then screwed thru the tile when the toilet is set.
If you are not stack testing the stub for the toilet is not glued until the tile setter is done, you can then get the flange exactually on top of the tile and screw it down.
This method was probably devised because a lot of times the height of the finished floor was changed mid-stream costing major amounts of $$.
This method may be regional, but I've been using it since the days of pack and pour cast iron, to each his own, have a good one.
"If all else fails, read the directions"
I was thinking about this during the day. In almost every situation there is a 90 below the flange so as you say adjusting height wouldn't be a problem. It's not a bad idea, I just hadn't seen it done.
In an ideal world flanges would be adjustable with some kind of set screw so you could put them to any height, any time. Maybe Simpson will manufacture one and charge big bucks for it.
Please don't bring up cast iron. I have a crawlspace full of it with corroded, stuck cleanouts I have to cut out and replace with ABS sometime before fall!
Done my share of cast iron in crawl spaces, hope its not wet down there, lots of luck.
"If all else fails, read the directions"
One other helpful item of interest; the coupling gives you some room for adjusting the flange height. Although it's best to bottom out the two pipe ends in the coupling, if you end up short of that by 1/8"-1/4" on either or both sides, it shouldn't matter, as long as the fitting is otherwise well made.
Edited 7/9/2009 4:17 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Yeah, good point but I'll have a lot of leftover pipe. So, I figure that after dry fitting everything together if something comes up short, I can just cut a new length of pipe and solve the problem.
One question I do have is: How high up does the vertical riser part of the waste pipe come (before the flange is cemented into it)?
Do I cut it off flush with the tile floor or lower?
Thanks.Griff
Do I cut it off flush with the tile floor or lower?
Flush or a little higher than the finished floor. It's not super critical because the wax seal gives you a small margin for error. Keep in mind that there needs to be enough space below the flange to get the flat head flange bolts in place. The two bolts that hold the toilet base against the floor.
This reminds me of a story told to me by a friend and client who was a NY cop, working with the emergency services unit.
There was a big event at Yankee stadium, a rock concert I believe. Some wiseazz put super glue on a bunch of toilet seats in several of the women's bathrooms.
So emergency services gets a call saying that there are fifteen women stuck to those seats. Ralph's crew goes to their aid.
Of course they have only one option, to remove the toilet seats from the toilets and transport the fifteen women to the hospital, covered at best they can with blankets.
Ralph sez, "Of course I had to lie on the floor to remove the nuts from the seat bolts. So what do you say to a woman in that position? Hand me a 9/16 socket, will ya."
Hope Ralph had his shots. I gather he survived.
Thanks for the advice. The flange I bought from my local plumbing supply house has a raised surface in the middle of the metal ring to provide room for the bolt heads, but I'll keep your advice in mind just in case.Griff
The flange I bought from my local plumbing supply house has a raised surface in the middle of the metal ring to provide room for the bolt heads, but I'll keep your advice in mind just in case.
It's just one of the small things that should be on your check list. BTW, those bolts and nuts should be in the box with the wax seal.
Yeah, Ralph's doing fine. Last I heard he was teaching the newbies. He had a number of similar stories to tell, and a few more serious ones as well. Good man doing a difficult job.
Edited 7/9/2009 9:00 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Gotcha. Thanks for the advice.
I'll be buying the pipe and cement tomorrow. Hope to get most of the parts replaced tomorrow as well. Or, at least, by Saturday. Griff
Locally Lowes sells short section of pipe. I think 2 & 5 ft sections. I think that they only have it in PVC, but in this area PVC is mostly what is used. They only have a limited amount of ABS.I know some other areas it is the opposite. So check the store. Hardware stores also sell cut goods. Don't know any do with drain pipe.But don't spend too much looking. It is relatively expensive.
A 2 ft section might be 1/3 of the 10 ft..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Thanks. I checked both of my local Lowe's and HD - neither one carried any ABS. Even my local plumbing supply house didn't carry any.
So, I went to a larger psh, Bender's in New Haven about 25 miles away (instead of 4 miles for my local psh) and they had it.
$15.58 for a 10' section of 3". The 90 degree elbow that I needed was nearly half that amount! $7.00! Don't know how that price compares to the cost of a 3" PVC pipe locally.
Now, I'm wrestling with separating the old pipe into pieces so I can remove it.
My first attempt wore out a brand new Sawzall blade and didn't accomplish anything - the cut melted back together again behind the blade. That is tough pipe!Griff
When you cut ABS use a blade with maybe 7 teeth per inch most wood blades will work fine.
A fine tooth metal blade generates heat and allows the plactic to stick behind the cut.
Keep your cut as square with the pipe as possible.
Use knife to put a small chamfer or rounded edge on the inside of pipe, if it has a rough edge toilet paper can sometimes catch and then other things will.
Sioux Cheif makes a floor flange with a stainless steal ring in ABS and PVC, this is the way to go.
Thanks for the advice. I used a blade with 6 teeth per inch and the heat generated was still enough to melt the plastic and allow it to reform behind the blade as well as allow it to coat the blade and stick to it in clumps of plastic material.
I think I'm going to have to cut a part of the pipe and then stop to allow the blade and the pipe to cool some before I begin again - all the while having someone maintain upward pressure on the pipe to try to keep the cut pieces separated so, hopefully, any melted bits won't rejoin.
I had previously read about the need for straight cuts (tough in the close confines of the area where I have to do the cutting) and a burr free joint inside the pipe to reduce the risk of developing clogs or blockages.
It's just going to take some time and, apparently, a couple of saw blades.Griff
I did the exact same thing on a house I sold last year. Cut the pipe in the crawl space, repair the floor then cut your hole and glue up your flange to fit the new hole. Remember to keep the flange flush, or nearly flush, with the finished tile height.
Thanks Woodway. I appreciate the advice.Griff
Why mess with ABS? It is brittle and hard to find. If it was so great, why is it not really used anymore?
Buy a small can of transition cement and continue with PVC... or use a rubber coupling if the pipe is exposed.
The 15" section of pipe does not have enough length to cause any issues due to a lack of support. The cause is elsewhere... the flange probably wasn't set properly in the beginning... maybe the wax ring has been leaking since day 1... maybe a joint in the floor that moves...
Try to bend a 15" section of 3" ABS or PVC and tell me how much it flexes.
As others have said, it is a common practice to shim the flange up to finished floor height with blocking of some type rather than to put the flange directly on top of the tile. I have seen plumbers just use chunks of 2x4 and the flooring guy is stuck with actually doing the blocking.
With only 15" of pipe, you will have to get it (flange elevation) pretty close.
Thanks for the advice.
More to worry about, huh? I'm hoping going slow and measuring and re-measuring and dry-fitting everything gets me to the point I need to be.
Right now though I'm more worried about cutting the pipe square to it's side. I'm first going to try to cut the old pipe at the vertical riser - after the elbow. I think there's enough pipe above the elbow for me to cement in a coupling and then dry fit a short stub up to the toilet.
But, the area between the joists is small and there are water pipes running perpendicular to the joists - they're toward the bottom of the joist cavity but they'll block my vision of the blade cutting through the pipe. Besides, the Sawzall is a big tool to be using inside the cavity.
So, if I blow it I'll have to try cutting the old pipe before the elbow - that 15" section. It has its problems too due to the small area I'd have to work in - I won't be able to stand behind the blade as it cuts through the pipe - I'll only see it from an angle. So, getting a flat cut is iffy.
If I screw that up, I guess I'll need to call in a pro.
He's gonna be so happy!
I'm gonna be so poor!Griff
Don't use a powered recip ('Sawzall') to cut the pipe; the speed of the blade is what's generating the heat and melting the plastic. Also the vibration it puts into the pipes could crack or loosen joints further on down the line.
ABS is easy to cut by hand; get out your plain old crosscut saw or buy one of the newer Japanese-tooth saws. Either one will go thru ABS without any trouble at all. If you're working in close quarters, use a short-bladed 'toolbox' saw.
Also note that it's easier to make a square cut with a wide-bladed crosscut saw than it is with a standard hacksaw.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Hey!! Thanks for some great to hear advice. I was really dreading using my sawzall again.
I have a small crosscut and a Japanese cut-on-the-pull-stroke saw that I use for cutting dovetails. I'll give them both a try and see what works best.
Griff
That dovetail saw might be just a tad over-refined for this kind of rough work; I was thinking of something like this:
View Image
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
That's OK. I tend to be a tad over-refined myself!
My brother has a FatMax. I'll sneak over and steal his.
Thanks again for your advice. I do appreciate it.Griff
What's a brother for, anyway...? ;-)
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Exactly!
What's mine is mine. What's his is mine!
Simple.Griff
Use the Fatmax. Once you cut ABS your good saws will be ruined.
OK, thanks.
I have some devious plans to "borrow" my brother's FatMax.Griff
I don't have a brother but someone borrowed my new Fatmax last week and broke two teeth off it. My thinking is an eye for an eye...
Don't ya love it when people do that?
And then deny that they did anything to cause that or claim it was like that when they borrowed it!
I solved that problem by calling my brother and asking him to come over and give me a hand. He brought his Fatmax and it worked like a charm.Griff
Good move. Glad things are going well.
Thanks for the advice yesterday. It worked out great.
Had my brother come over with his FatMax and it cut right through the pipe. Nice straight cut that's pretty close to being square to the sidewall.
I cleaned up the rough edges and cemented the pieces in and dropped in the replacement plywood. Everything's set for the tile.
As soon as my wife makes up her mind and picks a design.Griff
if i got a lot of abs to cut like a whole house i use a chop saw & then when i yell a dimension to a helper i get a piece thats the right length & square
As soon as my wife makes up her mind and picks a design.
That second, seemingly desireable result isn't necessarily dependent on the first, thank goodness. If it were, then the need would exist to determine if and where her mind is, or if, in fact, a defineable one can be found.
No matter. I believe that there are numerous legal precedents which establish the right of women to proceed with the decision making process unhindered by any mental activity.
"...unhindered by any mental activity."
Or, I've learned, unhindered by any male activity!
Not saying you like something she's selected to decorate the house with evokes the same response from her as saying "yes" to her question asking "Does this make me look fat?"Griff
How much trouble, one might logically ask, can I get into when only an affirmative or negative response is required?
Yes or No, which is it? God help me, which IS IT this time?
;-)
You're obviously a highly intelligent man - you're still single!
Either that or you don't know my dw.Griff
Glad it worked out.
Good luck with the design consultation. Do make sure the subfloor is thick and solid and flat enough for tile before you start mixing up thinset....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
The old floor lasted about 20 years so I'm not too concerned - but I am beefing up the joists around the toilet with blocking right around the toilet drain pipe and additional bracing to add support for the pipe itself. While it's all open I figured, why not?
But, one additional question came to me, if you don't mind.
I bought a toilet flange from the psh (while I was buying the ABS pipe and fittings) but yesterday I noticed that the plastic portion is PVC not ABS.
Do I need (Do they make?) a flange made with ABS to be cemented to the ABS waste pipe? I'm under the impression that the 2 can't mate.Griff
They do make ABS toilet flanges.
I would not glue ABS + PVC together, where I live they banned that type of joint many years ago due to failures. Luck.
"If all else fails, read the directions"
Thanks Shacko. I sort of remembered the no-mix rule but thanks for the confirmation.
I called the psh to ask whether they had a toilet flange with an ABS cone before I drove all the way over there.
"Nope" they said. They're out of stock and don't know when they'll get more in. I think a new delivery might be a long time off with the state of this economy.
I think I'm going to get a no-hub connecter and switch to PVC for the last 8" up to the flange and be done with it.Griff
ABS and other plumbing parts are available on line. That might save you some time. I haven't ordered from these guys but they look OK.
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/absplasticfittings.html
If ABS is common in your area a lot of the hardwares may carry the flange, worth a call, luck.
"If all else fails, read the directions"
I noticed that the plastic portion is PVC not ABS.
Do I need (Do they make?) a flange made with ABS to be cemented to the ABS waste pipe? I'm under the impression that the 2 can't mate.
First, yes, plastic toilet flanges are available in ABS; they are quite common here, although I still prefer using a bronze flange ring with a toilet lead. A 'toilet lead' is a closed 4" lead pipe about 14" long, with a band of ABS moulded to it at the open end, which you solvent-weld into any 3" or 4" (pick the one that fits your waste pipe) ABS female fitting.
You bring the lead up through the floor, drop the flange ring around it, and screw it down. Then cut off the lead about an inch above the flange ring, and fair it down with a small sledge hammer. Like this:
View Image
You drop your wax ring on top of that, and bolt down the toilet. Done.
Second, it is quite possible to join PVC to ABS but you need to use a special solvent-welding 'glue' called 'transition solvent.' We have to do this all the time as in Quebec, buried plastic soil pipes are PVC (we call it 'BNQ' for 'Bureau de normalisation de Québec'), while all interior plastic DWV is ABS. So there is very often a transition joint.
In addition, in repair/remod work we often find old PVC used inside the house and must put in a transition adapter to add on new pipe. The adapter is a special fitting that mates the two different ID/OD sizes of ABS and PVC. (PVC is thinner walled than ABS, so a 3" ABS pipe does not have the proper OD to mate into a standard 3" PVC female fitting.)
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Thanks Dino. That's a lot of information and I can say without exaggeration that your techniques are way above my competency. Or, way above my pay grade. Or something. Anyway, your work looks great. Very professional looking....as, I guess, I expected.
I think I'm still leaning towards the simple fix: no-hub boot and transition to PVC for the 6-8" above the boot up to the flange.
We're talking about a toilet in a half-bath. With the extra bracing I'm installing under the toilet and additional strapping on the pipe to support it, along with the relative infrequency of use, I think things should work out.
But, thanks everyone. Thanks to you too Hudson and Psycho.
I really appreciate everyone's help. It got me through this project.Griff
your techniques are way above my competency.
Nutz. This ain't rocket science; it's a lead-pipe cinch.
The lead pipe is even easier to cut than ABS; you can do it with a pair of snips once you nick a hole in the side. And you don't have to be very precise as to where you put the joint below the floor--toilet leads are usually at least 14" long. Just make sure at least three or four inches sticks up above the finish floor; then cut off and recycle what you don't need.
If you stay with the PVC flange you've got, you'll need a transition adapter to mate it to the ABS pipe and you'll have to buy the special transition solvent as well. My advice would be to take it back, ask for a lead/ABS fitting to match your pipe diameter (3" or 4"), and a bronze flange ring. And a set of brass (not brass-plated!) toilet bolts.
If they don't have that ask for an ABS flange set. That's a female fitting. Measure the depth of the insert cuff and cut your vertical waste pipe that much higher--less a quarter inch--than the flange set sticks down below the floor. (Typically, for a 3" or 4" fitting the cuff will be about 2-2½" deep.) This is a bit less forgiving than working with lead; you have to be within about a half inch on this cut unless you have lots of play in the DWV pipes under the floor.
When you go to glue the flange to the pipe, use lotsa solvent on both the fitting and the pipe, and don't shilly-shally around. Twist it on and push it home. (If the flange won't seat all the way down, twist it off the pipe again immediately and slop on some more solvent.)
If you use the ABS flange set, be careful when you tighten down the toilet bolts; if you crack the flange you have to cut it out and start all over. (Another advantage of using lead....)
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....