This is as much a business question as it is a relationship question, but let’s see what develops.
Three players in the mix: me, my wife, and her brother. He’s a licensed contractor, been in business for 20 yrs, and now full time since he retired from the fire dept. She’s an interior designer, also for 20 yrs. I’m a part time renovator and fix-it carpenter with a broad range of experience from various house flips.
We, the three of us, are moving to form a new division of the brother’s company to do Accessible remodeling and renovation, specifically accessible bathrooms; take out the tub and put in a roll-in level-with-the-floor tile shower unit. So far, so good.
But here’s the kicker: the designer (my wife) expects to “score a job” on each and every project we run across. She’s mostly interested in actually having a design job and doing what she loves. The problem is, some of these jobs are around $10,000 with all the labor, materials and overhead, and she’s thinking she’ll come in, shop for tile for every client, make new boards for every client, and put in 10 or 20 hrs @ $85.00. That, in my opinion, not counting the fact that she’s my wife, is overkill. We could easily come up with two or three tile designs, show them to the customers and say “pick one of these” and I’m guessing they’d be quite happy. I’m not convinced we need a brand new design every time.
So I’m having this talk with the wife, and she’s getting irate, so I brough up the idea of limiting the design portion of the job as a percentage — for example, on a $100,000 remodel, if she was the designer would $5,000 be enough for her? 50 hrs @100.00? She admitted it MIGHT be enough. I told her nobody was going to write her a blank check, we had to have limits somewhere.
So, in general, if you’re working with a designer:
1. Does anyone here VOLUNTARILY bring in a designer on a straight tub replacement job?
2. If you did, why? How much would you expect to pay?
Or who thinks they know enough to design their own tile layouts and would consider paying a designer a waste of money?
The other thing I’m thinking is how to help her “sell” her services to contractors from the “value add” to the contractor’s point of view? As far as I can tell, that would mean her contribution to the project would (one or more of these)
1. increase the profit on the job
2. Increase the scope of the job (upsell and add-on)
3. Perform work that the contractor either does not want to do, or does not know how to do (pick colors, tile layouts)
Any ideas along those lines I could share with her?
Sorry this is a long post with multiple subjects and lots of questions but it’s important for the three of us to be in agreement as we get this off the ground, or it isn’t going to go far, and I really think we have a good business niche, selling a product that has little competition in our area that is needed now and will be even more so as our population ages.
Replies
geoff....
ID... usually come with the job... not after it....so... if a customer wants to do their own design , we accomodate
or.... the Architect might recommend an ID
most ID's are freelance and may or may not have a showroom..
some i have known have opened their own tile stores
some work for large commercial contractors
if YOUR clientle are sophisticated enough and want ID, then you have a valuable service to offer them, but the average kitchen / bath job has no room for a separate ID
and the Kitchen / Bath showrooms have designers on staff
I would think you have 3 choices... divorce..... market to a higher-end client.... or set your wife up in a separate business
but hey, whadda i no ?
This scenario spells disaster from the start, to me.
Forgetting that she is your wife for a minute, I can say that EVERY ID I have worked with has blown the budget out of the water.
one of the mistakes people have made along that line is to hire the ID when the job is more than 60%finished. I have learned to advise them that if the want to use an ID, the time to start is right now.
With that in mind, the only way I see this having a chance of working is if you OFFER ID services to clients as an option at an upgrade fee price.
But I see too much chance to confuse customers this way.
And people are as particular and emotional about their ID choice as they are about their children. They like to choose their own, based on the style of work they have seen that person do in other homes, or on bragging rights if the particular ID is high end and has a very good name so all their friends can gush at the cocktail parties, "OMG, I can't believe you were able to get godsfreindIDsrevices to design this for you!"
So keep the ID business as a parallel adjunct, unless she is so good that she will bring business into you based on HER rep.
when I have an ID chosen by the client blow the budget out of the water, I can point the blame that way and still get paid. I can't see you doing it that way.
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I have a policy that I call No Friends in Business, No Business in Friends. In this case put the term family in the place of friends.
Doing business with family can be a very good thing, but you first must treat them like business partners/customers when it comes to business matters and not family. You need to clearly define roles for each and everyone of you and write them down.
Those who haven't established clearly defined and written job scopes with family businesses tend to have the employee-family members treating it like a charity and not a business in competition with other businesses.
You're already experiencing emotions trying to run business with your DW. To preserve your marriage you and DW need to have a serious heart to heart and set down rules of when you're going to talk business and more importantlys, when not to. Emotions are no place for business operations. How will she feel if the client has no interest in her ID services? How will she feel if the client would rather use their own ID? Are her expected wages on par with other local IDs? Overpaying her compared to local costs for an ID will boost your company's overhead and start costing you jobs.
Pay her what she's worth, not what she wants. It is a business afterall, isn't?
Geoff, I'm not sure it really matters who earns the bacon. You and your wife are both eating off the same company account aren't you?
So, if she garners $850 for ID and you have to cut your carpenter wages by $850, what is the net result? Your wife is happy. You don't have to mess with design. You're net takehome is the same.
Don't look a gifthorse in the mouth.
"So, if she garners $850 for ID and you have to cut your carpenter wages by $850, what is the net result? Your wife is happy. You don't have to mess with design. You're net takehome is the same."
No, his net take home is reduced by whatever amount his wife could have earned by working for someone else for that same number of hours. In most project, an Interior Designer is not an essential component. If Geoff's wife was a plumber, that would be different (in many ways), but I don't think it's apples to apples.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Geoff,
ID on smaller jobs is a no go. In this day and age, most customers want in and out. In fact the will haggle with you just to give you the green light. Therefore, this set up may be a deterrent more than anything else.
As for partnerships, it is good that you are working the details out now, it is usually very difficult.
My .02.
Focusing on accessible bathrooms is a good market. People motivated to spend money are doing it for a specific reason, and it's not to make the cover of Better Homes and Gardens.
Does she have a degree? Is she a memeber of ASID? then she can call herself a designer and command such fees.. wiether or not the cutomers accept her is up to the customer.. Don't push too hard for risk of losing the customer..
More than one job has been lost over a disagreement on tile..
In addition to all the other valuable comments, and I didn't see one I disagreed with, all you can do is offer ID services if the client wishes to take advantage of them. Period.
If one of your partners was a roofer, and demanded a cut from every job, whether roofing was involved or not, I think your decision would be obvious. Substitute an ID for a roofer, the same decision applies.
I think your wife needs to form, and market, her own ID business. Then you can pay her a commission for every job she brings to you. I have to wonder just how well your wife understands the nature of this business.
Good luck with what the cricket players call a 'very sticky wicket'.
All good advice, thanks everyone.One thing I don't think I made clear was that my wife HAS had her own ID business under her own business license for 20 years. Sometimes she brings me in on jobs where there's construction needed that I can handle. She's got a real heart for Accessible design, as her mom had Lou Gerigh's disease and was in a wheelchair for the last 5 yrs of her life. So she's excited to get involved in this, and of course besides that part of it, she's interested in exercising the "creative" part of herself and making things "beautiful". And that's where we start running into problems.For example, the first job I'm working on now, I grabbed some pics off the net and showed them and they said "that looks nice, that would be fine" and I know it WOULD be fine. But she's upset that I would even consider "cutting her out of the job". I understand how she feels but looking at it from a business point of view, if they're happy with a "stock" design I don't see the point in increasing the cost by (1) hiring a designer who will (2) put everything on a 45 and add lots of little trim tiles, making the job take 50% longer. My goal is to get in, get out, charge a fair price, make some money, and have a happy client. <sigh> I think you know what I'm up against. Possibly the best way to handle it is to budget 10 hrs on a $10,000 job and let her do what she likes with it. I KNOW she can upsell a job, and that alone could pay the bills, so it's just gonna be a matter of staying flexible. Marital peace is worth ... well, it's worth practically anything."If momma ain't happy, ain't nobody happy."
I would think that your wife, after 20 years, would realize that the clients who desire and can afford a real ID are few and far between. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of ID-designed jobs out there, but I would be that the majority of K&B jobs, built-ins, basements, additions, etc. do not include an Interior Designer.I think you need to tell her that many clients won't want that extra service, but she will get 100% of the referrals when the client is amicable.How you do that in a tactful manner is up to you.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Re: But she's upset that I would even consider "cutting her out of the job".
Does she understand that 1st you have to get the job? Her attitude suggests that nothing ever gets build without an ID, which is, of course untrue. Only once you have closed the job is it appropriate to inquire if an ID services would be worthwhile.
You say she has good skills to up sell the job, good. AFTER you get the job, not until, then she gets her chance. Does she understand that some clients will RUN away at the very mention of an Interior Desecrator?
When I sold & installed custom residential A/V systems, my best clients were old money. They understood that nothing is free and of course they are going to pay for services rendered. All too often, new money thinks everything should be free because "I'm spending so much money".
Does your wife realize that mebbe she duzn't really want every one of your clients as her client? Once, while trying to teach a housewife how to operate her home theater, I asked if she had read an instruction manual. Her reply was, "I spent $40K, I don't have to read manuals, I have you to teach me." I wonder how much your wife would like dealing with people like them?
You could, from a distance, let her read this thread. Either open her eyes or close her mind, ya never know.
Good luck.
I am reminded of the old motor sports saying, "To finish first, you must first finish".
A couple of things in your post raise some questions for me."Sometimes she brings me in on jobs where there's construction needed that I can handle."That's a good thing, but it implies that you're only brought in when you can make a real contribution to the job. If you aren't an "adder" to all of her jobs, why should she be added to all of yours?"She's got a real heart for Accessible design......."Which part of it - the functional or the appearance? In my limited experience, you only need a "pro" once (or maybe twice) to nail the functional requirements. Why would you need a "pro" to spec door widths, grab bar locations, etc for each job you bid?"My goal is to get in, get out, charge a fair price, make some money, and have a happy client."That's the goal we all aspire to, and I wonder if your wife really gets that? If you start loading up your jobs with unecessary costs, someone else will eventually offer an equivalent job without the extra cost and you'll both be wondering where the jobs went.I'm no marriage counsler, but I think that you two need to separate your marriage from your businesses. By definition, a marriage is hardwired and runs 24/7/365. A business relationship needs a switch that's on when you need it and off when you don't.
To me the job of an interior designer is to make the customers idea a reality. Help guild with colors and finishes.
Many take over and inflict their ideas on the customer. In my experience, this is when the designer and customer fall out.
On the lower priced jobs, you could try including X amount of hours IF needed. But like you say the budget tends to control what can be used.
Recent job. Customer wanted hidden lighting, ID was very against it. I ended up asking who is paying for the job? Customer now has hidden lighting.
This could work but like all the others, be careful.
>inflict their ideas on the customer<
inflict.. I like you choice of words there. hehehe
"Many take over and inflict their ideas on the customer. In my experience, this is when the designer and customer fall out."Yes, and an addendum - that many IDs infect a customer with ideas that can double the cost of the job, and that is where the ID and the contractor fall out
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Good luck with this one.
Your wife is the third wheel on the bicycle you and her brother are talking about building. I haven't a clue how you can get that across to her nicely.
I work wirh one particular designer often enough to know that when she is involved I make more money. she has a great eye and a knack for bringing in the affluent clientel and/or up-selling the job
maybe your wife is looking at changing YOUR business model.
on some jobs my girl plans everything from ordering dumpsters to lining up subs and scheduling deliveries. then she gets into hand holding with the customer. I think your wife could assume some of the less artsy duties to pull her weight
My own experience is that ID's are a specialty, and most valuable on larger projects. A good one is worth her/his weight in gold. But for most residential work, it's pricey.
I would think an ID wanting to do residential would need to formulate their approach accordingly. Maybe a more general range vs. something specific. Clients don't often care about framing, foundations, HVAC, etc.. They can get lost on interiors though. And at $85/hr, that adds up quick.
DW has done 100% of ID on anything I've built for us or kids (nothing for clients, all DIY).
That said, per Piffin's "EVERY ID I have worked with has blown the budget out of the water" DW is as cheap or chaper than me, so has saved 100% of out of pocket money. Example - over the years she has literally gotten TONS of fabric from donations as her 'life goal hobby' was to sew over 10,000 quilts for Lutheran world relief, some of the donated fabric went to drapes, etc. -- she (we) donated the shipping costs for quilt bales to cover the use of donated fabric. (She is on the 11,000th set of quilts now)
Maybe if the pro ID wife could market herself as 'pure green' ID with philanthropic sideline it would work?
Good points. Too bad I haven't worked with your wife.The ones I get make a lot of their money by developing sources of supply that are hard to find, unique and subject to gross markups so that they can sell it themselves and make that money. They guard those sources zealously. Some are truly high end nice items, but others are crappy oriental knock-offs that look good for two months, then start falling apart.
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Step away from the partnership... really. Interior Designs are not contractors, contractor, with a few exceptions. Contractors are not ID's, or most shouldn't be.
In my opinion, Interior designers shouldn't be salespersons, either, but that's another thread
The problem is when one or the other values their job(pay) more than the others. If your wife(the ID) is able to meet the client, do the design, sell the job, schedule the work and represent you and the home owner while making you side money, then I say go for it.
If it means that if her piece of the pie is too large for the rest of the business to make a reasonable income, then the partnership isn't going to work. You wouldn't do it for another designer, would you? Nor, would your wife?
Would you be willing to hire an outside salesperson to do a less labor intensive marketing to make your business more viable? How would you wife feel?
I'm not say she isn't worth her projected value, but it my not be realistic on smaller jobs.
Ultimately, is your service and along with her service the most cost effective for the homeowner. Can you still compete with the other firms that don't have the added costs?
We all know what we are worth, it's just that not everyone(you, the ID, or the client) will find this type of relationship the the best value for their buck.