Whadda think (or know for sure) is the biggest “technical ripoff” in the building trades in the last 50 years?
My 1st vote is for “insulated glass” ripoff. Yeah, I know(?), ‘newer’ seals are ‘so much better’ – yada, yada, yada. Old fashioned storm windows with modern type seals would be a much better option, but not allowed by many local energy codes – money talks.
2nd biggest boondoggle is GFI/arc fault – again money talks- industry ripoff, probably cost overall consumer tens of millions for each life saved – if translated to cars, you’d be driving an armoured tank at no more than 15 mpg for same cost/benefit trade to society. Worked in the 70’s with a man (Tom Sussman) who was on the NEC committee, committee loaded with mfg reps, his opinion was that the code change was primarily to force in ‘customers’; at least, some on committee prevented ‘whole house’ GFI from being required.
Replies
I think vinyl siding rates right up there.
Its claim is that its a no maintenance exterior, but it does. Checking flashings, powerwashing, replacing cracked pieces- all require work.
Too many contractors use it as a water shield without considering how to get rid of the water that gets thru. Cedar claps and wood shakes do a better job of making a water-resistant shell.
And I have vinyl on my own house. It does have some advantages.
Edited 11/21/2004 9:02 am ET by Shep
toilets
You mean low-flow or any toilets at all?taking the lead out iof exterior paint and then taking the oil out of them has really ruined exterior protection of surfaces.Twenty years ago,i would have lsited pneumatic nailers as a downfall fo r the construction industry.
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Breaktime. ;-)
Wastes the time we should be spending developing new and better methods on our own.
Masonite siding (more specifically that "hardboard" stuff)
Edited 11/21/2004 9:18 am ET by dieselpig
don't forget "smart siding"
Junkhound,
"Uniform" building codes. LOL
Jon
I see square d is recalling all their arc-fault ckt.brks. because of a faulty chip. The rumor is this same chip is in every brand... can't protect stupid from stupid. I was on a job where the owner's daughter was laying out by a pool with a extension cord draped across and into the water to run a boom box. Not a real good looking cord either. My current favorite technical marvel are those multi drive screws, ya know-straight, philips,locked recess, all in one screw. We have a screw maker out here whose driver won't fit their own screws, Cully. Every year or so we get a new posi-drive system that doesn't work.
Pye, et al: My AFCI popped three nights ago. Guess why - the lightbulb in the shower burned out. AFCI thought it was an arc & shut down the entire ckt, plunging the bathroom & adjacent bedroom into pitch black. Had to get out of room by Braille. Now THAT's STOOOOOOOPID. Consider what you'd have to do were you actually in there soaking wet & covered w/ soap! At least the second entrance to bath was to other bedroom, on different ckt.AFCI leaves a lot to be desired.DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
" My current favorite technical marvel are those multi drive screws"
I hate those things too. We went from phillips to square drive because they were better. So I had to get square drive bits to run the things in.
Then they come up with the "combo" recess that doesn't work well with EITHER phillips or square drive bits. So now ya have to buy a special driver just made for those stupid things.
That would have to be one of my pet peeves...
Leadership is getting someone to do what they don't want to do, to achieve what they want to achieve. [Tom Landry]
MDF casings and mouldings. In general I like 'engineered wood' products like PSL, LVL, LSL, TJIs, OSB and other acronyms, but MDF casings are an abomination that aren't as good as natural wood.
Wally
Another great question.
I had to sit on this for a while before I could reply.
The worst advances by far are the introduction of chemicals in the building process...especially the noxious glues and offgases that are poisoning the masses in the colder climates.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Seems it's the synthetics that are buggin' us the most. Anything that that I have to nail or saw that aint wood is high on my list. I know much of these products are advancments but one of the pleasures of the trade is the wood. It's feel, look, color, smell etc... Now I can only complain about the last 20 years<G>Corrado
See waht I mean?
I think Axec and Fypon exterior trims are great stuff, as is Correct Deck and WeatherBest. All exterior products that I will not need to replace in ten or twenty years due to rot
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There have always been chemicals in the building process, some more and some less dangerous.Lead in the paint
Asbestos in the heating systems
Creosote and copper on ground contact lumber
Asphalt fumes - not to mention Pitch
other VOCs
Even some woods with their own 'natural' chemicals raise sensitivities in certain people.This is not to argue with you, but in discussion - I have been thinking through thesse twin threads that many of the things that some folks consider amoung the worst, others would consider amoung the best, and vice verse
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Interesting comment. While driving up to my mother's 80th bday, DW was reading some CME (continuing medical education) stuff about "workplace induced asthma". Beside bakers with flour dust, carpenters were mentioned high on the list, and one of the worst woods is western red cedar.
I'm suddenly more aware of this issue over the last couple years.
I was acutely affected by my father's cig smoke growing up and then had little problem for many years asa n adult. buit a few years back some Port Orford cedar put me in the hospital with a respiratory reaction and symptoms like a heart attack. Ever since, I am more sensitive to several woods and other dust, mostly oak and fir.
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The auto hammer.
Who Dares Wins.
How 'bout the fake spare tire?
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Not exactly a technique or material, but I think "McMansions" should be right up there.
I know BIG houses are nothing new, but the proliferation of them in NJ is rediculous. I've worked on a few, and have NO desire to live in one of those monstrosities.
I think part of the problem is the idea that bigger is better; whereas a smaller house with better quality control and materials would, in the long run, be more valuable.
whereas a smaller house with better quality control and materials would, in the long run, be more valuable.
I agree with your point, but sadly, most of America does not. A similar situation caught me offguard about 15 years ago. That was back when everybody seemed to either have, or want, a 'conversion van'. I also wanted a van, but I was disgusted with the quality of the conversions. It was obvious to me that a fully equipped van, direct from the manufacturer, was much higher quality.
And my suspicions proved true. I bought a fully equipped van, and its features lasted longer than any of my friends' conversions. The seats and lights were the bigest difference.
But when they sold theirs, they got higher dollar for theirs, than I got for mine.
I guess, to get back to your original point, that it depends on how long these junky items (McMansions, conversion vans) are held before sale. Certainly, if I keep my 1950 house for another 50 years, and keep it in shape, it will have more integrity, more value, than a 55-year old McMansion. But if I try to sell within the next decade......no way.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
In Vancouver, floor/space/ratio should include any overhangs, which might actually shed rain, thus avoiding water seepage into bearing walls, thus costing condo and new home owners thousands in repairs.
(there are other issues behind the leaky condo issue here on the Wet Coast, but lack of overhangs strikes me as the easiest, immediately remedial cause.)
"The people of England have been led in Mesopotamia into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honour. They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information. The Baghdad communiqués are belated, insincere, incomplete. Things have been far worse than we have been told, our administration more bloody and inefficient than the public knows."
T.E. Lawrence, Aug. 1920
http://costofwar.com/
How 'bout the fake spare tire?"
Piffin,
Well, how 'bout axin' the spare tires entirely . How often does one get a flat anymore? AND in an area that is so desolate that phone service or a passerby is not available to call for help or offer aid?.
Between fix a flat, and run flat tires? They are just a carry over from many, many years ago. I wonder how much energy is consumed during the life of a car from lugging that "will never ever be used" thing around.
But wait, there is hope,......Safety Research & Strategies, Inc. (SRS) of Rehobeth, Mass., http://money.cnn.com/2004/11/08/pf/autos/tire_dating/
has officially petitioned NHTSA to legally mandate that spare tires with old dates (6 years) be replaced with new ones. In the meantime, to issued a consumer advisory that tires older than six years not be used and be replaced. This, based on #'s reported by them, would result in a 0.0008 reduction in traffic fatalities, assuming of course that the regular replacement of all (nationally) our spare tires causes the # of deaths associated with driving on a spare to drop to zero............from 37/...per year.....That's out of 40,000+
That way you can chuck that never used one, and buy a new one. Look for legislation to require "spares with current dates" in states that have auto safety inspection program soon if they get their way.
Sorry for the rant, but this is how some people earn a living?
Jon
Once they do away with those spare tires, they can get going on forcing people to get rid of their own personal spare tires.BTW, since i live on island, and have a compressor, I can usually manage to get it driven to the auto shop here, but I have had to change exactly three tires this year due to flats. I always make sure i have a spare when i go off-island so I can't identify with the suggestion to do away with spares altogehter
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"...but I have had to change exactly three tires this year due to flats."
Piffin,
I've had tires get low on air due to punctures, but in well over a million miles of driving, I have yet to experience a flat tire that required changing. Guess the roads are a little more hazardous back East.
Jon
Job-site hazards, mostly nails, with an occasional sidewall slice from sharp ledge and shale. With four vehilces in the fleet, it is too often that I fail to notice it going down until it is all flat.One last winter was from parking the van near the building where water puddled. It froze tight and when i went to move out, I popped the bead loose. The guys thought it was kinda funny.
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Maybe if some people changed a flat tire by using the vehicles spare tire, they would "work off" the on they got around their middle.
I have a Toyota van with Dunlop run-flat tires. Got a flat. Both the dealer and Goodyear (they own Dunlop) say the tires are non-repairable and tend to self-destruct if repaired. New tire costs about $370. For the cost of two of these tires I can replace them all with regular tires AND buy a rim and spare - that can be repaired for $15. I am NOT replacing these tires w/kind when they wear out.Formerly just 'Don' but not the 'Glassmaster Don' or the lower-case 'don'.
I gotta go with OSB. It has no place in exterior applications, and I can't see where else it would be used. In my experience, whenever it's used as sheathing, it gets wet before it gets covered up, then the swelling begins. Workshop Jon, you obviously don't work in construction. I easily average 5 flats a year, course, I hate to carry tools, so I try to get as close to the building as possible<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
The new Layout and stupification of FHB is right up there!
Masonite siding or MDF anything.
DIY big boxes.
Bob Vila
Dewalt tools
Plastic
Particle board
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
Workshop Jon, you obviously don't work in construction"
Billy,
Define construction. I'm currently building The Deep Ice Sheet Core Drill for UW-Madison's Space Science Research Lab, that will go to The Antarctic pretty soon. Last month it was tooling for massive water pumps destined for the rebuilding of Iraq, When I'm not do'in stuff like that, I take on home building related side work, or continue my slow but steady progress on my abode.
I honestly don't get why you guy's get so many flat tires. it's very uncommon in these parts. Maybe you guy's need better roads....or tires.
WSJ
My last two flats have been something I picked up on the way home. After sitting in the driveway all night, they were both plumb flat when it was time to leave the next day.
Dunc,
So did ya' change it, or just fill it up with air or fix a flat?
Jon
Yer a smart guy, right? For the last 30 years I've been pulling up next to buildings that were being built: That's construction. I do it every day, not just for a little while. Aren't you mainly a pattern maker, working out of a shop that none of us could afford?<G> and with, apparently, very clean parking lots.Sorry you had to get out in the field, but I'm so glad you didn't get any flats...doode, they really happen, and they're a pain in the doopa to fix. I'll keep carrying a spare...but thanks for your well intentionted advice not to. LOL Don't worry, we can fix that later!
"Aren't you mainly a pattern maker, working out of a shop that none of us could afford?"
Hey Bill,
Just didn't think flat tires were much of an an issue anymore, You guys set me straight
But no, I am not a "pattern maker", hard to define my job as it encompasses several fields and trades, and FWIW, I couldn't afford the shop I work in either.....But yer' right, are parking lots are clean, Even have flowers lining the edges LOL.
WSJ
Sorry, I thought you had described yerself as such, now I know yer just a flower sniffer<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
now I know yer just a flower sniffer<G>"
Billy,
You have something against people who like to smell flowers? Better watch what you say or I'll have to have my 120lbs wife who loves flowers come over and teach you a lesson. LOL
Jon
Are we married to the same person?<G> It's just started to get cool here. I help Mrs 'Snort stay in shape by letting her drag all here plants inside, by herself., ha, ha, ha!We're smelling some mighty sweet orchids right now...but I usually back over the ones next to parking lots LOL Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Jon,
Gotta add my flat anecdote here. I've had to change enough over the years that I don't remember how many I've changed, but I DO remember the second flat I ever got. Driving my brother's VW, I was 18, wearing a bathing suit and flip flops, when the tread peeled off the tire. Anybody who's changed an old 'bug tire knows that instead of lug nuts it has bolts, and they tend to fuse into the hole. So there I was, jumping for all I was worth on the wrench, trying not to pop out of the suit, unable to move until the tire was changed, as fix-a-flat is not an option when the tread peels off. I spent the whole time grumbling that nobody stopped to help the hot chick (yes, 20+ years ago I was hot) change a tire, and worried that somebody might stop. I would not have accepted help then, and I won't now. I still don't use triple-A, and am thankful that my cars have had spares.
I only bemoan the loss of the full spare - they don't even make a big enough space in cars anymore that you can replace the donut with a full spare. Thus, with my last flat (blown out sidewall) I ended up looking for an open tire place in Winnemucca, NV on a Sunday so I could drive the next 300 miles home.
Aimless, if you think Winnemucca on a Sunday is bad, you should have seen me in Caliente, NV (about a tenth the size of Winnemucca) on Christmas Eve afternoon with two ruined tires at the only tire store/garage, that also didn't accept credit cards. The little mom & pop grocery up the street ran the card (for 5%) and called the tire guy when it went through. Oh yeah, he would only sell a set of four. I still feel lucky that I didn't end up spending the holiday there!Formerly just 'Don' but not the 'Glassmaster Don' or the lower-case 'don'.
I had to smile at your description. Yes, we were lucky - another 20 miles down the road and it would have been a loooong walk in the desert. Every time I drive the lonely highway (50) to Great Basin, I am thankful when I get there without mishap.
Nuclear energy, Plastics and computers.
All suffer from the same problem:
Hyped as the next best thing and brought to market WAY before the limitations and kinks were worked out.
All have ther advantages and drawbacks.
all were rushed into use before they were fully developed.
and all of them have a significant PR problem because of this.
If we pretended we just discovered these (and other) and started over with what we now know we could have clean safe Nuke power, plastic products that use plastic where it does good and not where it is a poor substitute for something else and computers that are easy to use and reliable ways to get IMPORTANT things done FASTER.
Mr T
I can't afford to be affordable anymore
The desert is why , in addition to the spare tire, I carry 4 cans of Fix-a Flat. The last time I drove the Southern Pacific causeway across the Salt Lake I got 3 flats from the debris that falls off trains. I always carry food, water and bedding, also. I once spent half a day during an icestorm at Silverzone Pass waiting for an icestorm to pass over and the freeway to be re-opened. Come to think of it, I was on my way to a derailment near Winnemucca when that happened.
I agree that Highway 50 would be a miserable place to get stuck. I imagine that in the winter, especially, a person might have to wait a considerable time for assistance, what with major portions of it being out of cell phone contact.
Have you ever been over the Pony Express Trail west of Fairfield? Once ran across an older couple along there with a broken U-joint on their pickup camper. Had to drive about 30 miles to a hilltop where my cell phone worked to contact their auto club. I had a heck of a time getting the club customer service rep to understand their member was broken down in the middle of nowhere and that there weren't any nearby towns or crossstreets and it would take a tow truck more than 2 hours to get there.
Have you taken a side trip out of Elko to Lamoille Canyon or Ruby Marsh? If not, I think it's well worth it.Formerly just 'Don' but not the 'Glassmaster Don' or the lower-case 'don'.
Every general contractor should have a magnetic "broom" to roll around on a regular basis. I've never seen one come up empty.
A magnet will halfway clean up the grass but mud ( especially frozen) gets a pretty good grip on nails
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buck.. i uster change flats.. then my wife went to work for AAA..
now i got a AAA Gold card... i get a flat.. i call AAA.. they come within the hour and fix it..
the other day ... dieselpig was talking about impact wrenches... and wether the cordless ones would take off a lug nut
so i went out and tried it.. wouldn't budge 'em..
went and got my big impact (electric ).. wouldn't budge 'em
i'm wondring what they put 'em on with nowadays ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Anytime I'm in somewhere dealing with the wheels I always tell them not to impact them on tight and to finish the last few turns by hand with a lugwrench.
If they whine about it I tell them to let me do it then.
Nothing like trying to break loose an overtightened lug on a road somewhere without a breakerbar extension.
Had some on so tight before it actually twisted the stem on a T-lugwrench.
Suckers don't care.
be a lug
Suckers don't care
Not to put a free plug in, but that's why I go the tire man I use. Their corporate policy is to not only use a low-torque driver on the impact wrench, but each tech signs off on what torque setting he hand tightens to.
Not surprising, really, the wheels have gotten lighter in section from the manufacturer, the bases, too. One ham fisted over-torquing, and the company just bought that customer a new wheel, and/or the stub, and/or everything attached to it.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
They put 'm on with some fool kid overdriving the things with enough torque to keep the moon in orbit!
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overtorque, etc. - I can also deviate from a thread I started , can't I??
Son took his 92 toyota in for a free oil change, he'd never taken it 'in' anywhere before. They also provided a 'free' overall lube checkup, told him the rear end had water in it, etc. and needed changed. He just told them he'd let his dad look at it. Son brought it over to help me use up a 5 gal can of HP90W.
Anyway, DID THAT GUY EVER PUT THE REAR END PLUG IN, probably at 120 psi with a 300 ft# wrench. When a 15" 1/2 drive rachet couldn't move it, put a 200 ft=# torque wrench on it, that didn't touch it either.
Figured at that time some bozeo figured no DIY was gonna get that off and they would come back. Took 3/4 breaker bar with 2 ft extension (figured about 350 ft-#) to break it loose. It wasn't no kid tried to strip the threads, but a marketing driven AH..
Rear end 90W was OK.
I guess you can add those kind of 'services' to the list of worst.
When a 15" 1/2 drive rachet couldn't move it, put a 200 ft=# torque wrench on it, that didn't touch it either.
You bought the wrong one. Mine's 650 ft-lbs reverse, ½" drive. Did have to learn to leave it on the low setting for tightening. Love it. Makes your life easier if you have machinery. Still confusing when the lug nuts go different directions on each side of the vehicle.
Once was trying to get wheels off a 20' box truck I bought. Finally jumped on an 8' cheater. Surprisingly the Chinese socket didn't break, the stud did. Guy at the Ford place sure looked at me funny when I put the busted one on the counter. Said "must be more to you than meets the eye". Abuse, what abuse?PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
You guys are a bunch of lug wusses.Before I moved out here, I went to sears to have the wheels balanced and rotated. (Coulda rotated them myself, but I wanted the balance as well...)I was in the waiting room a half hour. Kept watching every joe out there go and have a try at my lug nuts.Finally, the service manager came in and said the lug nuts would have to be cut off with a torch because they couldn't get them off.I walked out there, got the "t" lug wrench, (that I had used to put the lug nuts on in the first place...), out of the trunk, and loosened all the lug nuts for them. Then walked back in and waited...Tigthened them up againm before I left...
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
DIL's father put snow tires on her car in '93 with the 3/4 impact they use to service the big 5 ton case loader at the dairy farm in Snohomish, then moved to CA. When I went to change the tires in the spring, had to stand on on a 4 ft pipe on the handle of a breaker bar to get them loose.
Uh, why don't I have a 3/4 drive impact? they break too many lug bolts.
BTW, cna't think of any air tool right off that would fit into this thread.
Ok,ok, so I twisted off two studs before I learned not to twist so hard on the "t" wrench.(Freakin' cheesy little datsuns...)(Oh wait, I did one on a 68 nova, too.)Replacing those studs did teach me, though. LOLI love doing that stuff with the "t" wrench.In student housing, I had a neighbor with a flat tire. I offered to help, and was brushed off.I watched from inside for a while. He gave up in frustration a couple times. Went in and had a beer or something, then would come back out and try again.Almost three hours later, I looked back out there, and he was pulling up as hard as he could on one side of the tee wrench, and his wife was jumping up and down on the other side.Getting angrier and angrier at each other, as if it were the other's fault...I put down the coffee, walked out there, and just walked up and gestured at the wrench without saying a word. They both looked at me and moved back. I loosened all the lugs, and went back inside. Still never saying a word. With them staring holes in my back all the way in. None of us ever said a word about it, the whole time I lived there. LOL
The person you offend today, may have been your best friend tomorrow
I used to own taxis, and I went through a fair number of tires. I go to one place exclusively, they know me by voice and always have room for me so I can get on the road FAST.
They use air wrenches, but set to factory torque specs - you know that the manufacturer always has torque settings for every nut and bolt on the vehicle - and I've never had to bust a nut.Quality repairs for your home.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
yes , i did know that they spec the torque settings.... that's why i was wondering if the new trucks have higher torques
i see a lot of purple giunk on the lug threads.. suspected "lock-tite"
anyways.. guess i'll inquire at my repair shop.. they keep up on these thingsMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
While I don`t get all too many flat tires, the times I have I`ve been very happy to have a spare. The last one was a few years back....driving home late night from vacation. Not sure what I would have done after midnight, some three hundred miles from home, somewhere on I195, had I no spare tire.J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
I hate to carry tools, so I try to get as close to the building as possible
Last year I was working in Calgary Alberta. They came up with a law to prevent soil from entering the storm sewer system and eventually the river. After the foundation was backfilled, no vehicles were allowed off pavement. Enforced by the "Dirt Police", initial fine, something like$80, subsequent fines could go into the $1,000's.
Packing absolutely only what I needed, and portablizing, had me hauling in much less than the days of backing the truck to the door and unloading. Soon I was actually able to find thing in the back of my truck! Stopped getting flats too.
Also I'll back you up on the OSB. Under an overhang it may be passable as sheathing but sheathing a roof with OSB is ridiculous. Any man over 200lbs should not be walking on a roof with ½" OSB on 2'- 0" centers.
I weigh about 210 w/o work clothes and tools. I have never had a problem standing (even jumping) on 7/16" OSB on 24" spacing. Am I just a lightfoot?BTW, I think OSB is great. It has it's place.
Jon Blakemore
and its place would be exactly where? and how long,precisely, have you been using it in your preferred applications?<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
I think OSB has uses everywhere. Floors, walls, and roofs. I've had more problems with moisture and delaminating when using ply than OSB.>>>"and how long,precisely, have you been using it in your preferred applications?"I've been using OSB for 8 years.
Jon Blakemore
OSB IS great....for building crates and other containers for shipping sh!t, other than that.....it's the devils revenge.
I weigh about 210 w/o work clothes and tools. I have never had a problem standing (even jumping) on 7/16" OSB on 24" spacing. Am I just a lightfoot?
BTW, I think OSB is great. It has it's place.
First of all, thank you for telling me what you weigh naked.........NOT!
Second of all, If you had to jump, (in an emergency), from one bare roof to another, 10 feet below, would you rather land on a roof sheeted with CDX or OSB? What if it had been raining for several days?
>>>>"First of all, thank you for telling me what you weigh naked.........NOT!"Actually I said witout "work clothes", not clothes in general. Regardless if you have an overactive imagination more power to you.Secondly, I would rather jump on the roof sheathed in OSB. Why? Just because.Either way, what does jumping from 10' onto a bare and soaked roof have to do with peformance of materials?Would you rather drop a 6x6 on your big toe or a bath vanity on your pinky?
Jon Blakemore
Well, in defference to your longstanding experience, I still don't care for osb. I think I first used the stuff in '84...sucked...still sucks when it gets wet...unless all the good stuff is in Fredricksburg, I can't see how we're talking about the same stuff. I am now weighing in at a very proud 165 ( and I'm not saying what state of clothedness I'm in<G>), but I am wearing oxy lites, Ha...jumping around on that crap on a roof still makes me queasy...Drop it on an edge, it blows up...shoot a nail into an unsupported part, more often than not,it blows chips out the back...shall we talk about over driving? I'm sure you don't want to, but we could go down to Florida and see what blew off this year...Ever left it sitting out in a pile for while? The edges don't swell?Okay, you like it, what do like about it more so than plywood?What am I missing on its attributes? Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Credit Cards(unsecured credit)Video Games- Baseball fields are empty all summer long.
BB,I will admit 8 year is not an eternity to be using a building material but I do think OSB has come a long way. When it came out (I've heard) it was really bad. Now Huber has Advantech which I consider to be both OSB and superior to any plywood product.I think OSB has it's place and ply has it's place. I've had bad experiences with both products. As you said OSB can swell, blow out, etc. Ply can delaminate, warp, and is more expensive. OSB is great for wall sheathing. Ply is good for floors because people like to see it instead of OSB regardless of which one is better.That's my point of view. Agree or laugh, whichever you prefer.
Jon Blakemore
Advantech is a whole different bird...good, no, great stuff in my experience...Now, if you sheath your walls in osb, get the roof on and papered, get that osb on the walls wrapped, and it still hasn't rained, you've got something going on that close to vodoo....Hey, I've got some great friends in Fredricksburg, I'll call you when we're up there next time. You live in a nice place. Don't worry, we can fix that later!
I dunno Jon, jumping naked onto OSB or CDX doesn't prove anything. I flunked funny.
I just can't seem to get my head wrapped around OSB being acceptable as a building material. When it first came out in the 70's we called it Aspenite, and left exposed in the rain for any amount of time the stuff would disintegrate. I stopped framing and came inside in the 80's, before OSB use became widespread. Lately, when I install underlay for tile over OSB that has been in the rain, it still don't look too good.
Remember that osb is not the same as the old waferboard.
Remember that osb is not the same as the old waferboard.
If it walks like a duck....
And talks like a duck....
MrT- it's not the computer that's hard to deal with, it's the operating system that some no comb, pocket protector wearing, white socks w/ black shoes, slide rule using, staring at his own shoes, adhesive tape on the bridge of his black horn-rimmed glasses geek (still lives at home with mother and father when he's 35) thinks is the coolest thing he has ever seen. Mike- I think the purple stuff is so the nuts don't rust onto the studs.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Jon, I'm with you all the way on this. It oo have been around 225 lbs when I was active on the roofs, and have had no problems whatsoever with 7/16" osb.
Other guys a lot heavier than me had no problem either.
I'm 220 without bags (but soon to be a svelte 200) :-) and I use OSB on roofs with no problem. In fact in there has not been a problem here in the Pac NW in the last 15 years.
What we have had a problem with is ply delaminating before the roof is on. And it was only put on the roof 2 days before!
Tim I've noticed that the quality of the plywood has spiraled downward since the good old days. I wouldn't use plywood unless I was forced to for some reason on my own stuff.
I did a job last week for a homeowner. The homeowner shopped around and bought his lumber from a very large volume lumber yard (local name is withheld to protect the innocent). Anyways, the quality of this yard is always low. I noticed that the roof osb was quite spongy. It was a 5/12 (I haven't done one of those in many years), so I don't know if the sponginess was due to the low pitch, or the cheaper quality osb. I can now understand why some in here say they wouldn't use it...I wouldn't either!
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
For the wurst in fifty years, osb hasn't got a chance compared to waferboard though. It was furst at being wurst and still can't be beat.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The plug cost less than 50cents. buy a pack and pull out the nail before the tire goes flat ,insert the plug repressurize and off you go.....
Nope. The manufacturer says that because of the very rigid sidewalls (that's what makes them run-flat) a repair in the tread portion of the tire will weaken the tire to the point it is likely to self-destruct at speed.Formerly just 'Don' but not the 'Glassmaster Don' or the lower-case 'don'.
I got a flat last week. I called my auto service and they put the spare on for me. Now I'm driving around with a flat spare.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
But it's only flat on the bottom!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I know I'm in the minority on this, but I do get flat tires and I do occasionally get one quite a ways from anywhere and where my cell phone gets no service.
It's such hell having to spend time out in the mountains. ; )You're unique! Just like everyone else! Scott Adams
"how often does one get a flat anymore?"
Without a spare, the 'one' that does occur will be unforgettable
The worst thing that has happened is the abolition of the closed, secret society of tradesmen. All of the secrets of woodworking should have been kept secret and revealed to those who earned the knowledge through indentured apprenticeship. Just look what has happened now that the information is public. Anyone with a hammer can call themselves a carpenter. What has followed? Low wages, no benefits, a degradation in the trades status and more hacks lined up at HD than you can count. The trade has become the last bastion for ne'er do wells, criminals, addicts, morons, liars and cheats. There are no standards, no reliable sources of information and support. If you dropped out of school in the third grade, you're probably a carpenter. Plumbers and electricians haven't been quite so stupid but their time is coming. You don't see Doctors and Lawyers sharing their secrets on the web do you? You shouldn't even be allowed to buy a hammer without a journeyman's certificate nor should hammers or any of our tools even be seen in public stores, let alone be purchased. Someone made a fatal mistake with our trade years ago. Now we barely rank with used car salesmen. Being a carpenter once was a position of respect and envy. I say burn all the woodworking books and take the tools out of the hands of incompetents, homeowners and hobbyists.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Here, here!J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Hey, i've been putting an addition on my house. two vehicles at least eight flats over the last two years. mainly roofing nails in the driveway gravel- I hate roofing nails.An ex-boat builder treading water!
Don't feel bad...
Last February (maybe March) I dropped 5G on a shiny new cargo trailer. Waited two weeks for it to arrive at the "dealership". Towed it home happy but five grand lighter, backed it into my driveway and went into the house to get my camera. By the time I came out of the house, one of the tires was just about finished deflating from a roofing nail I must have backed over.... in my own dang driveway. Serious buzz-kill.
I agree HAmmer. Sawzalls used to be the secret tool that guaranteed a lifetime of remodeling. Now homeowners own better ones.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
A tiny bit before 50 years but the first error was coming down out of the trees. Who needs money when the fruit grows on trees. Those were the days.The shift away from stone tools was a downer. In those days a craftsman could make his own tools from stuff he found on the ground.The loss of the guild system was a bad thing. Smith and Cooper wasn't just a family name it was a family business and a tradition.More seriously. Power tools changed things. I was young but still remember carpenters who carried, and usually maintained and sharpened, three or four handsaws in a sleeve. Don't know if the change was negative but carpenters who only used hand tools really seemed to have a feel for the wood.The loss of the unions was a bad thing. Unions became demonized at the same time the myth of the 'free market' was created and business was raised on a pedestal. Unions were, and still are, a good thing. Not perfect but, on the whole, a good thing. Apprenticeships instill skills and pride. When unions went were driven out the trade skills hit the skids. Quite literally in Florida anyone who can hold a pair of Kleins and con an electrical contractor to hire them can call themselves an electrician. OSB, and particularly Masonite and like particleboard products, used as structural component or weather barriers are a mistake in my book. But here I'm just a shock jockey who has taken a lot of voltage.Cell phones IMHO have cost more time, and accidents due to inattention, than they have saved. They have a place but when everyone got them and use them everywhere the benefits got watered down. lousy lumber harvested from trees scarcely big enough to get a good toothpick from. Quarter-inch growth rings. Knots everywhere. Older carpenters wouldn't have used this stuff as blocking. It they would touch it at all it would have fed the fire out front.Muscle cars were a joke. Not even decent sports cars. We did fine with a reasonable sized engine driving a reasonably sized vehicle. A whole lot of even the large trucks had what is looked at now as a small engine. Look at the Willis Jeep. Something like a 40HP engine and it got us through WW2 and Korea reliably. SUVs are just the latest iteration of this 'bigger is better' madness.
Get the black ball out, he mentioned "us" . . .Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
YeHa! I think we have a winner
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Up till 50 years ago most folks ('cept those living in a big city) were 'DIY'ers'. If my father (a DIY) didn't build us a house I'd have grown up in a tent. The current state of poor craftsmanship and training in the industry isn't because of the availability of our 'trade secrets'. Goes a lot deeper than that.I do agree that anyone with a hammer is in construction. Nothing new - We saw that during previous buildin booms. The main reason that lots of unskilled workers end up as 'contractors' is that the barriers to entry are so low. And the barriers will continue to be low until we are regulated either by our industry or by the government. Doctors and Lawyers are licensed by the states they practice in. Some states have licensing procedures for some tradesmen (plumbers, electricians). Are you ready for a license to pick up a hammer, paint brush, shovel, trowel, and so on? I for one would love to see a license in my state. With 10,000 'registered contractors' and only 800 building code books sold every 3 years I think I'd be sitting in a catbird seat (Yes ma'am, we can put you on the schedule for June 2012). I doubt many workers would pass the test.MG
I'm with you. If my dad didn't build it, we'd be in a tent.
I think it began with something else, but I can't put my finger on it. Maybe something like "build-it in 2 minutes pressboard furniture" from low end stores. You know the kind I mean...the laminate was really a decal and a hex key came in the package.
Are you serious?
Jon Blakemore
My post was really meant to be 'tongue in cheek'. I do think there are some underlying truths but solutions are rather complex in the modern world. Despite what some may think, I wasn't around in the middle ages. How successful the guild apprenticeships of old were is only romantic conjecture on my part. Licensing, as an indicator of someone's competency, would depend on the criteria used for issuing the license. I think we would all agree, there are some drivers out there with licenses that aren't particularly good drivers. The same can be said for any license. I would not use the system of driving licenses as a paradigm but it does serve to illustrate the different requirements in addressing some of the components. You need a system to deliver information training, the system needs to be reviewed and updated as necessary. The training is usually done on a variety of platforms, video, written material, lectures, demonstrations, etc. Students must be evaluated for their knowledge and more importantly, demonstrate proficiency. To maintain and improve standards you need an enforcement component. Add a judicial and legislative arm and you have a mini government. Of course, none of this guarantees perfection but it is a step in the right direction.I think the carpentry trade could benefit from training. I think everyone in the construction trades would be better off if there was, at least, required safety training. There are already many existing programs for this. Some don't know about them, others choose to ignore them, since they are not required. You don't use powder actuated guns on most commercial jobs unless you have the card. Same goes for operating a fork lift. Requiring a certificate of training to buy or use a table saw would not be met with open arms although, it would likely save big dollars in the wider picture. I think good, carpenters, ball players, clergy, whoever. are always seeking information and striving to be better at what they do. Without basic standards, any pursuit falls victim to old wives tales, rumors and half truths. Sort of like the building trades. Low or non existing standards get related results. Just because something is in a book or magazine doesn't make it correct. Some of my mentors taught me what not to do.When looking at the original post, I can't think of anything that would qualify as a worst advance. I've seen steady improvement in construction materials, tools and procedures in my 39 yrs. in the business. There was no OSHA protecting workers rights 50 yrs. ago. Very few building codes. Sanitation, utilities, energy efficiency, utilization of resources have improved. That's not to say all new things have been an improvement, but those that have not, are quickly left behind. Some of the manufactured products like OSB were not great to begin with but they have developed into excellent alternatives. We all can't build with old growth Douglas Fir. OSB has allowed the use of a renewable, under utilized resource in addition to reducing labor. I just used some shelving that is made from wheat by-products. A one time waste product that is now recycled. I would not want to walk a staging plank made from it just yet but it is a viable product when used for it's intended purpose. Real estate agents, plumbers and electricians take a disproportionate piece of the construction pie compared to carpenters. Carpenters are the ones making critical decisions and solving problems. The variety of skills and tools, the exposure to dangerous situations and the long term value that carpenters provide isn't rewarded in kind. You can't pull a plumbing or electrical permit without a masters license, but anyone can get a building permit. I wouldn't start taking tools away from hobbyists, they'll be lined up at my place asking to borrow mine. With the influx of cheap labor we'd better get on the ball if carpentry is to offer the type of career that will allow us to send our kids to private colleges, provide health insurance for our families and improve our status in the community. People aren't sending their children to vocational schools, the few that do go look at the training as something to fall back on. What a perception, if you can't make it in some worthwhile occupation you can always fall back on carpentry. I'd better stop this post before I get peeved.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
You can't pull a plumbing or electrical permit without a masters license, but anyone can get a building permit."
Hammer, You can in lots of places. Just maybe not where you live.
WSJ
I agree with you completely... that carpentry has been degraded dramatically by every hack with a hammer calling themselves a carpenter, and that all too often the trade is populated by the all and every miscreant and misfit, but I laugh at your implication that the publication of trades books for being the cause of this downfall. If only these hacks knew how to or would bother to read just a few of these trades books the trade would not be nearly in the state it is in. The problem with carpentry... the way I see it, is while new products and new techniques are being developed all the time, not to mention old habits being formed... most carpenters I know don't read at all. I have often heard old timers say "oh you can't learn nothing from books", which makes me immediayely suspect of anything they know, and as the reading of books has shown me, rightfully so. I can't tell you how many times I have sought out information in books only to discover that the lead or the G.C. is not only fundemantally wrong, but so wrong as to have created stuctural or integrity problems. There is nothing one can learn by experience, if the same mistakes are made over and over again, many of which might take years or even decades to appear, by which time the builders are long gone. Not to mention the new trend toward design build with out having any concept of structural engineering... which can only be learned through reading. Carpentry is as much a science as a skill, as much knowledge as experience and without the ability and insight to learn from the mistakes of countless other builders as they are researched and written by the writers of journals and trades books, then without a doubt in five, ten or fifteen years technology will have out stripped you, your knowledge will have fallen to bad habits and misinformation, and you will certainly end up one of the many hacks and a disgrace to the trade.
Also: greed of G.C.s and poor business ethics are equally responsible. Most of these undesirables you speak of... work for someone else, and out of a quest for more money, I have known several G.C.s willing to put anyone on sight just to get paid. If the trade is going to regain its respect, it is up to every decent carpenter and responsible G.C to demand better quality, not higher profits.
I can't tell you how many times I have sought out information in books only to discover that the lead or the G.C. is not only fundemantally wrong,......."
Bookworm,
As a VERY serious DIY, I have to say that most of the "info" you find in books on the shelves is more outdated than what the pro's practice who you criticize. That's one of the reasons why I come here and also subscribe to FHB.
Advances in materials and construction techniques happen faster than "books" are printed, and most on the subject are regurgitated crap. A true pro stays current 'cause it's in his or her best interest to. A hack doesn't. So stop hiring hacks.
WSJ
In general, I think you're right, but it seems to me that most times when I tell someone what I do, they seem genuinely impressed, and in many cases, envious. The ones who aren't impressed are usually other carpenters.
Ah, so many "technical ripoffs," so little time.
#1 Houses with zero roof overhangs.
Runners-up:
aluminum branch circuit cable
cultured marble sinks that crack and craze as they age
particle board for underlayment...smelly, swelly
foamed plastic baseboards/casings, and also fake beams - ugh!
peel and stick floor tiles
I better stop now, getting too depressing.
Bill
If I really wanted to stir thte pot I'd just say: The building codes. But then Lorn and blue and piffin and others would have to start all over...
{G, D, & R}
You're unique! Just like everyone else! Scott Adams
If I really wanted to stir thte pot I'd just say: The building codes. But then Lorn and blue and piffin and others would have to start all over..."
Hasbeen,
I beat you to that one at post # 7. Guess they were too tired for a fight.
Jon
Actually Jon, I'm not opposed to building codes. I'm just opposed to stupid building codes.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Can you get a high five from here?<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
saw the town named in yur honor today...
http://www.bucksnort.com
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
It can't be me they named it after cause it says you're guaranteed to catch fish! I just feed 'em<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
ya - we know...stick to your story - - but here's evidence of your real passion...
gotta look close at the sign in the window..."there's enough for everyone"
I saved that, reopened and zoomed, but it just got more and blurry.
What's it say?
What's it say?
Suspense is killing me.
'Bucksnort Saloon'..."there's enough for everyone"
Yeah, all the "bucks" stop here! Ha, ha, ha& quit posting those danged .asp things, I'm on a mac<G> Don't worry, we can fix that later!
Fake slate plastic shingles.
Fake slate plastic shingles.
why? - - "there's enough for everyone"
Because the ones I've seen all looked like fake slate plastic "pringles" within 10 years. The curl certainly added depth and dimension to the roof but I doubt it helped them function very well.
For what it's worth, the roofs I'm refering to were in a hot climate. They may not be as bad in other regions.
torque on most cars are between 80 ftlb and 100ftlb. any more and you risk distorting the hub and brake rotor. Snap on sells torque bars that you put on your air gun to tighten the lug bolts. they stop at a pre set torque. Gray is 100 ftlb. each colour is a different setting. tight is not always good and tighter is definitely not.
Good and tight worked for steel rims, but over time, aluminum moves because it so much softer than steel. The nuts and seat should be cleaned before tightening too, so the torque reading is accurate. Torque wrench is best, but if the torque bars are used with an impact gun, it should be stopped after it stops, not just try to keep tightening them.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
"Marlite" - surely there's no Marlite in heaven
Plastic inserts at the blade location on table saws and power miter saws--too much deflection.
The plastic is inadequate, but the cast flange or support holding it in place is generally placed so close to the table surface, it makes the installation of a more reliable replacement insert nearly impossible.
HAmmers are becoming over rated
Be banged or blown (in)
andy
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
When we meet, we say, Namaste'..it means..
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
I throw the heat pump in here. I hate them. Give me my gas back... Energy saving my A@$!
In my city(actually a 'burb of Milwaukee), I can pull a plumbing permit, a building permit even when major structural work is needed, one for installing a furnace, or just about anything except electrical. So I can have it fall on me, drown me or blow up around me, but I can't electrocute myself. If they came up with a proficiency test that worked, it would make me very happy since I, and others, wouldn't need to pay the jacked up prices. It needs to be inspected anyway, so if the inspector knows what the he!! they're doing, they'll catch any problems, right?I had a garage built last winter and it was the biggest PITA of my life. From the beginning to the end of it, it was one load of crap after another. The electrician never did pull a permit and the work they did was pretty lame looking. The ground was frozen and they dug for 5 hours for the trench to the house for the service. They could have gone 4 miles to HD to rent a trencher, but didnt.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Sounds like they shoulda rented a jackhammer for that frozen tundra.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
The grunt was going at it with a pickaxe and broke the handle so I let him use mine. I would have thought they have to do this kind of thing occasionally, so they should have something that works. It's not like there was snow on the ground, it was totally bare.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I'm in Glendale. It was Genuine Built Rite. Wouldn't want to confuse them with any other Built Rite. I was talking with my cousin a year ago on Thanksgiving and explained that the company was recommended by someone I had worked for, so I didn't check into them. What a freakin' mistake!!! They had six files with the BBB at that point and may have another if they don't tie up the loose ends.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
A favorite trick of the grunts is to break the shovel handleto get out of a hard digging job. I learned toalways have an extra and be ready to mention they might have to pay for the second handle
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
A shovel handle is one thing but this was a pickaxe. He toasted that thing! If he had broken mine, he'd have paid for it. That would have shown that he doesn't know how to use it.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I was wondering how badly he hated using it to have broken it! I have three - no two pickaxes and one bladed matock and all have handles you could kill a moose with before breaking it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I've never broken one...
even using it for unintended purposes...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
I've twisted a couple of lug wrenches that they've all been replaced with 2 ft. breaker bars with the right size socket.
Since I'm thinking about things automotive, my vote for worst 'advance':
Air bags.
The kind that are made powerful enough in an attempt to protect the idiot that doesn't care enough about his own skin to wear a simple seatbelt, and ends up being powerful enough to kill kids.
Edited 12/7/2004 12:41 am ET by BarryO
Edited 12/7/2004 12:41 am ET by BarryO
It is my understanding that those high-powered airbags have all been phased out since the late '90s. The new logic is to let the big guy who does not wear their seatbelt die and protect the small ladies and kids instead (genders indicated here only for illustration purposes!).The newest ones adjust their inflation force depending on what the seat sensors say is sitting there (I think this is only available in some real expensive vehicles so far though).Norm
I thought Oreo did your diggin'.
me????
what diggin' ????
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
There's been a lot of rumors going around.
let me put the rumours to rest.IMERC does not dig.Now go back to sleep;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
or have anything to do with painting....
but I own paint brushes and rollers....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Contractor I worked for had a 'special' shovel for anyone who he suspected of breaking a handle on purpose. Break a shovel, without good cause, you got the special version for the rest of the day.The special shovel was a heavy duty blade welded onto a length of 1-1/4" rigid steel conduit. The conduit had a length of 3/4" rigid steel inserted and welded in place on both ends.The shovel was extra heavy and the smooth oversized steel handle caused a lot of blisters if you used it long without good gloves. Young punks never seem to use gloves.Can't say that he had a lot of problems with broken shovels. Just having that beast around was usually enough.
actually a 'burb of Milwaukee"
High5,
Just curious what "burb", and who you used..."Best Built", JD, "Classic"?????
Been there myself not that long ago.
WSJ
Aluminum framing squares.
Heeeeyyyyyyyy!!!!!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!