I have 18 sq of roofing to do on a porch roof (4 pitch).
I’m not much of a roofer, but I have done it before and have 3 strapping sons to help [they have plenty of meaningful work, but it might be nice to get them some roofing experience].
The labor-only bids I got were high and medium: One sub bid it a $2300 plus $125 for each of 5 skylights. Another sub bid it out at $1250 plus $75 for each skylight.
For that amount of money I think I’d do it myself but with nail guns (i.e. coil type roofing guns).
I suspect the only problem might be over driving the nails which I think I could easily control with a pressure adjusting guage at the gun.
Any opinions out there to guide a novice roofer looking to same some cash?
Thanks,
Roger
Replies
lot easier with nail gun. buy the cheapist one you can find and throw it out, when your done.
I got a Crafstman coil nailer off ebay for $55, including shipping. Brand new, have put a case and a half of nails thru it, no problem.
Dont throw it away afterwards, just send it to me to 'dispose' of <G>.
I was a compete novice and bought a Bostich coil nailer, ended up selling it for almost what I paid for it. Worked great, didn't have any problems.
Jim
What's with the skylights? Why the extra $$ for them? What about tearing off the old roofing? That's part of the job too.
Eighteen square of architectural shingles, not the old three tab style, on a 4/12 roof should be pretty easy for you and your sons to knock off over a sunny weekend, using one nail gun. But that's starting with a bare roof.
If you're going to use a nail gun you'll need a compressor and hoses too, ya know. All are probably available as rentals. Cheaper than buying for sure.
The way that pro roofers lay a roof like that is; one guy placing the shingles, another running the gun, third guy carrying bundles, making cuts, laying paper, snapping lines, etc.
In your case, you'd want to switch off every fifteen minutes or so, letting one guy rest all the time. A 4/12 roof is like working in a field, bending over and pulling weeds all day. It's hard on certain muscles that you don't normally use.
Be sure to get together to read and discuss the instructions; found on each bundle's paper covering. That would be something to do while you're tearing off the old roofing.
You can also search the archives here for threads on that topic. Well worth your time.
Edited 1/28/2008 5:30 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
"The way that pro roofers lay a roof like that is; one guy placing the shingles, another running the gun, third guy carrying bundles, making cuts, laying paper, snapping lines, etc. "There are a dozens ways different outfits run their own show, none alike. I've worked with several and never seen the same setup twice. For me, having somebody else place my shingles would slow me down, but for a novice, it would probably work out OK.
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There are a dozens ways different outfits run their own show, none alike.
Of course there are. I'm just offering the gentleman some general directions, to help keep the chaos to a minimum.
Doing a 4/12 or 5/12 standing up with one nail gun operator and another guy laying shingles just ahead of him has worked well for me.
Having a third guy to cut and nail drip edge, lay paper, carry, etc. is a nice bonus. If the two man team can get a good rythym going the roof goes on very fast with relative ease. That will require some close support from at least one other person.
A four person family crew is really ideal, if they all get along and can allow one person to lead. It's the kind of thing that can be fun, save some money and give them reason to take off another weekend and go fishing together.
I don't disagree tht it might possibly work for him.What I argue is your assertion thaat that is a common practice for professional roofing crews.It might get done that way on some crews on some jobs, but it is as likely to see common as it is to see a black pickuptruck. Some are, some aren't. That's all.
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"but it is as likely to see common as it is to see a black pickuptruck. "
You might be eating your words there. After the white craze two years ago, and last year's silver-grey, two of my friends have come home with black trucks this summer.
Lots of black pickups around.
But there are lots of other colours too. Won't be eating my words. They said exactly what I wanted them to say
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Must be different here. Once the fashion changes almost all the trucks are one colour. I don't know what they do with the ones that are a couple of years old. Burn them? Paint them? But woe betide the man who has last year's colour.
What's with the skylights? Why the extra $$ for them?
So I guess if you were installing siding on a wall, you wouldn't charge anymore for trimming out a window and installing it and warranting your installation?
The way that pro roofers lay a roof like that is; one guy placing the shingles, another running the gun, third guy carrying bundles, making cuts, laying paper, snapping lines, etc.
There's nothing cut in stone on that. I'm with Piffin - never seen two crews operate the same way and a each crew will approach each job differently as necessary. Somebody placing shingles for me is likely to get nailed to the roof. Most crews I've seen use "throwers" on step roofs. Their job is to feed shingles right side up and bottom down to the nailers from the top. The nailer positions his own shingles. On a 4/12 roof, the shingles won't slide, so no thrower is necessary.
In your case, you'd want to switch off every fifteen minutes or so, letting one guy rest all the time.
That's just plain silly. As soon as you get in the groove, you've gotta stop and do something different? Nah.
Be sure to get together to read and discuss the instructions; found on each bundle's paper covering.
Excellent advice. Most everything they need to know about shingle installation is on every single bundle .http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
Why be so argumentative when we're trying to help a guy shingle his roof?
Everything I said is from my experience, hiring and running new guys through roofing jobs. It all worked well for me.
Edited 1/28/2008 6:45 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
Why be so argumentative when we're trying to help a guy shingle his roof?
I explained why it costs more to install a roof with 5 skylights vs no penetrations. You asked.
I think some of your advice was good and some was bad. If your name was hudsonvalleyroofer, I'd be inclined to give you more credence. How many roofs have you done?
I've framed a few houses and trimmed a few more. My methods were fine, but I'm sure they left a lot to be desired. That's a big problem with forums like this. Somebody does something one time and they're an expert. You told the fellow how you'd do it. I've got no problem with that, but I know there are better methods. I was spelling them out. Wasn't trying to pick on you, just disspelling or adding to what I consider to be incomplete information. Don't get your feelings hurt. I've gathered lots of good info from other posts of yours - posts about subjects that you know.
From what I can gather from your roofing instructions - Get the hell off the roof, you ain't no roofer. And you can yell something similar at me if you drive by when I'm hanging a door.http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
I don't think I quite understood your position. Could you be a little more clear? :-) DanT
I asked the OP about the skylights and doing the tear off because I wanted him to tell us what's up with those items, what kind of attention they need. Those are still good questions.
I've done my share of roofing, mainly houses I've built. I'm guessing between 800-1000 square total. I don't claim super pro roofer status but I do own a roofing nail gun so I must pass at least one criteria for answering his questions.
Lemme ask you about your advice. You say that these novice guys would be better off hand nailing this 4/12 roof. What position do you imagine them being in while they do that, sitting, kneeling, what? 4/12 is pretty awkward to hand nail for most guys who haven't done roofing before. Hard to sit on it and get nails out of a pouch, twist around and drive nails. Hard to kneel on it without tearing up the lower courses with your toes. At the same time they have to keep the courses running straight, not easy to do in an awkward position.
I'm remembering a big 4/12 roof I did some years ago, hand nailed, with three guys who'd never nailed a shingle in their lives. Snapped lines for every course and they still couldn't keep them running straight. Had spilled nails all over the roof, them trying to just get a few nails in hand at a time. Roofing with novices is a comedy of errors at best.
I say that these guys can work together much more easily, standing up, to place accurately and nail using a gun.
But I'm still waiting to hear from the OP about the current condition of the roof and those skylights.
I've installed some skylights with the flashing applied at the factory. You ever seen those? Lots of possibilities, just like there's different approaches to doing the roof.
Edited 1/28/2008 8:10 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
I do own a roofing nail gun so I must pass at least one criteria for answering his questions.
I've got several shotguns I've only shot a couple of times. Want any hunting advice, I must be your huckleberry by your criteria.
I asked the OP about the skylights and doing the tear off
I didn't get the feeling that there was tearoff involved. My feeling is that this is new construction attached to an existing building, but rereading the original post, it's hard to tell.
What bothered me about your first post and compelled me to chastise you (since you think I'm on your butt unfairly) is the question about charging extra for the skylights. Yeah, skylights are extra. If you had installed any you'd know that.
What position do you imagine them being in while they do that, sitting, kneeling, what?
What ever's most comfortable for them. A tall guy like me is more comfortable sitting. A shorter guy might kneel or stand. There's no best answer for this. It depends. Why is hand nailing any more uncomfortable than gun nailing? This guys not going into business - he's trying to save some money. Spend $300 and the time it takes to set it up and learn how to use it and then sell it when he's done or use what he's probably already got and finish this one job? If this was 100 squares, I'd answer differently, but it's 18 sq with 4 hammers.
Personally, if it's more than a bundle, I'm probably gonna pull out a gun, but I own so many roofing nailers I don't even know how many have. But, I hand nailed for 10 years before I ever touched a gun and I'm just about as fast either way (or was before I got old). These guys aren't going for speed. They're going for cheap.
I'm guessing between 800-1000 square total.
Yeah, whatever.
I've installed some skylights with the flashing applied at the factory. You ever seen those?
Yup. We call them "trouble bubbles".
Look man, I'm not trying to ride you. I have a different opinion than yours. There's other methods than mine. You just brought up some things I don't agree with and I stated that fact. Nighty-night.
http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
Look man, I'm not trying to ride you.
What do you call pulling remarks out of context and making snide comments?
I don't get your style. It's a bit too complicated for me.
Good night to you as well.
What do you call pulling remarks out of context and making snide comments?
I don't know what you're talking about. I dissagreed with you. You took offense. I meant nothing personally. Sorry I hurt your feelings. If we were talking face to face we'd have no problem, I suspect. http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
I just finished a 60-square roof-over, by myself. I bought a Bostitch nailer, hose, and small compressor. Put three and a half cartons of nails through the gun: no problem. I absolutely am GLAD that I bought the nailer: whole lot easier than hand-nailing.
The under-drive and over-drive problem is easy to solve. Set the gun so that it nails correctly or a little to the under-drive side, then clean up with the hammer that should be on your belt! No problem, perfect fit every time!
PS: I did cheat and bought a manlift for the ugly job of getting me and the shingles up to the roof (3-storey house, 9-in-12 pitch roof). I'll use the manlift next for painting the place -- it's an expensive investment, but you can rent them, too.
Bob Chapman
"Yeah, skylights are extra. If you had installed any you'd know that."Maybe he is already so slow tht skylights don't slow him down any - even with a gun
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I have NEVER iun my life found anything awkward about shingling a 4/12, nor does that have anything to do with whether to use a nail gun or to hand nail.
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I have NEVER iun my life found anything awkward about shingling a 4/12, nor does that have anything to do with whether to use a nail gun or to hand nail.
As I said, in my experience 4/12 is an awkward pitch for novices, not old pros like you, to sit on and try to position and nail shingles accurately.
Again, in my opinion and my experience, it's much easier for novices to stand up, place the shingle accurately by visual cues seen from a better perspective, and nail it off with a gun.
I'm happy to let the OP try the various suggestions he's received and make his own decision based on what works for him and his sons. How about you?
I used the word never because I was not always an old pro. I was once a reen working on a barn roof, then a novice working on a cabin, then......You probably are not intending to try to convey the meaning you are, but you keep writing from your experience and conveying it as tho it is the primary fact for everyone else instead of only one of many possibilities.Individual body mechanics play a large role also. Standing is the most awkward way to shingle for me and all but one of the roofers I have ever encountered. I never could understand how that big buck could bend over so far and still get any work done, but his body was shaped differently from most.
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I stand up almost all the time, if I sit too long my knees get mad, then I can't get up. ;)
I don't have anyone feeding me shingles, thats another reason for standing. Woods favorite carpenter
???
What does standing have to do with somebody feeding you shingles or not?Place the shingles within arms reach and then you can get one without having to walk to get it and wasting all that time and energy
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Having to get up and down every time I need a new bundle. At 6'7" tall its a long way up and down for me.
I've worked with guys that sit, they are able to do it. I'm just not able to without getting sore.
I get a bundle at a time, but that only lasts about 10 minutes at most. Then I'd have to stand up and go set another, then another, and another. All that up and down kills me. But I can stand all day, not sure why, but it works for me.
Woods favorite carpenter
But I can stand all day, not sure why, but it works for me.
As tall as you are, I don't see why that doesn't kill your back. More power to you.
If I don't have a thrower and the slope is low enough the shingles won't slide, I bust the bundles and spread the shingles for a full rack to one side or the other. Then I sit on foam on my left hip and leg. As I move up, I push myself up with my right leg as I grab the foam with my right hand and hold my body up with my left hand. When I get to the top, I stand and walk back to the bottom and get streched out ready for the next rack.
On small planes, I carry a bundle in my lap.
This is for the OP's benefit. I have back problems and this method saves my back. http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
My back gets sore, don't get me wrong, But not as sore as my knees do if I sit down.
You and Piffin have done this more in a few years than I have in my whole career, and I might sit if I had that much time under my belt. But for me standing works for now. Woods favorite carpenter
You made me curious how many shingles....so I did a quick calc based on 12 sq/day I would have laid about sixty thousand squares but I was doing flat work and BUR for a third of the time, and I had to do some tear off, then there were the cedar roofs that are slower.So I probably only laid 20-30 thousand squares. Call it fourty or fifty acres more or less.Gives a whole new name to the phrase, " the back forty"
;)
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well at least that back 40 didn't leak...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
That is what I mean about different body mechanics. Overall, you don't find too many guys your size ( ever bump your head on a cloud?) doing shingling regularly.
at the same time, you have further to bend over, which you do with every shingle, in contrast to only needing to get up once every twenty shingles or whatever. That would kill my back after about five shingles.
Different bodies, different methods
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I can agree with that, body mechanics is the difference.
I scatter bundles all over the area I am working on, most times I don't have to move too far to get the next bundle, with the height I have long arms, so I can reach them from a distance.
Clouds, no I haven't hit those. On flat ground I walk into ceiling fans, light fixtures, stair ways with low head room. The list goes on.
After last winter and the amount of shingles we laid my body is just now recovering, you and See you have no chance. Call me a sissy, but I not built to be a full time roofer. Woods favorite carpenter
Not a sissy- smart as he**
Yeah, smarter than us too
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I'm not either. I finally bought a nail gun a couple years ago now that I am a carpenter instead of a roofer, LOLIt never increased my speed, just made it easier to do the work.Here's a Q - If you were hand nailing, would you be standing and bent over?
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this old framer used to do a fair amount of roofing also. only 3-4000 squares. I found roofing guns made even unskilled labor somewhat productive. I also stand up when shingleing. must be something guys over 6'6" do. al it means is you have to bend over. All that up and down kills the knees.
"I found roofing guns made even unskilled labor somewhat productive."LOL, sometimes power tools just make unskilled labour more unskilled.
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"It never increased my speed, just made it easier to do the work"No matter how many times I hear this sentiment, always makes me laugh. It reminds me of a time some crotchety old timer walked up to a job we were framing (just putting the first floor decking down) and gave us a hard time for using nail guns. He said that he could hand nail faster than we could gun. One of my guys Asked "Are you sure?" after listening to his tirade and nailed off a full sheet in a few seconds. You can buy used guns on ebay for $50. And if you think you can handle a roofing job you should probably own an air compressor anyway. The notion that nail guns don't DRAMATICALLY increase speed is absurd. I'm with the guy that wouldn't put up more than a bundle without a gun. It's just wasting time. And for a HO it's just less free time and more frustration. For $50? and a couple extra bucks for the nails??
Well spent money if you ask me. Another story. Last summer I picked up a friend for a day out on the course and his neighbor was replacing his roof. Simple layover, 4/12 no valleys, no dormers/skylights about 25 sq. He was about 1/4 complete when I saw it, hand nailed. I started talking with him and offered up a roofing gun and a box of off brand nails that had been collecting dust in the shop (1/2 mi away) I honestly couldn't bear to watch them hand nail it and my friend vouched that he was a stand up guy. He was done the next day and gave me a $100 gift card for loaning it to him. So it was worth at least $100 to one guy.
If I had to hand nail I'd sub it out, I'd lose my tail if I tried that. No HO in their right mind would accept my bid, I'd have to charge too much to just break even.
But if it came to it, I'd sit down. Woods favorite carpenter
Thanks for that reply, Matt.I was gtting at an understanding of body mechanics for when I am trying to teach young bucks. I have seen that different guys bodies work in different ways and tht has to be considered. The only way to get the kind of production I did was to be onstantly analysing every oune of energy that is expended, how far you reach for each shingle, whether this hammer or tht hateht works best, whether to precut edges or ripaalong the metal, when to celan up, how many lines to snap.......but most of all the ballet of body movement is whaat does it. No wasted movements. When a guy is working against his own body, it is not productive, so with new guys I try to watcch not only what they are doing, but how the move. A little thing like whether he is coking up on the handle of his hatchet can make a big difference in whther he has to hit the nail three times or once.
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It's been a tough learning experience for me, learning that I can't lift things or work like guys shorter than myself do.
I can produce the same amount, just not the same methods. Sitting down over the course of an entire roof would just about cripple me.
Call me crazy, but I'll take an 8/12 roof anyday over a 4/12. Best of both worlds for me then, not alot of bending over, no sitting down. Make more money on them.
You guys that have made a career walking the slopes make me shake my head. I don't see how you've done it. I ache from head to toe today and I just dried in 60 square, no shingling.
A roofer I am not. I do them alot, more than I'd like. But I couldn't hold up half as long as you, See You, Slateman, and others. No way, no how. Woods favorite carpenter
Whoa! 6'7 ?!
So I'll bet you don't do crawlspaces either then....
I'm 5'8 155. The curse of the crawlspace on me for life...
You probably are not intending to try to convey the meaning you are, but you keep writing from your experience and conveying it as tho it is the primary fact for everyone else instead of only one of many possibilities.
You take my use of the phrase "in my experience" to mean something authoritarian when it's offered simply as a means to convey a distinction between my experience and that of others who are expressing differing opinions.
It was also used in response to remarks which suggested that I was talking theory rather than knowledge gained from personal efforts.
Right now I'm using more diplomatic language than I would if we were speaking about this subject in person. Some people will interpret that practiced message board approach incorrectly too.
Frankly, I don't give a flying phuck what you think of my suggestions on this topic. They're meant only to be helpful to the OP and other novice roofers who are considering how to shingle a low pitched roof with accuracy and relative ease.
BTW, I've observed a number of roofing crews at work during the time I've been here in Los Angeles. Almost all of the older development homes here have 5/12 roofs, very similar to the 4/12 roof under discussion. Every crew I've seen is working standing up using guns. Most of them use the two man place and nail method I suggested, with other crew members carrying, etc.
One roofer here told me that the standard 5/12 pitch is used specifically to make it easy to roof standing up.
The fastest hand nailing roofer I ever saw on low pitched roofs was a guy who was working solo on some housing units I was framing with many others for a big contractor at West Point in 1970.
He did one twenty square roof a day, including drip edge and paper, standing up on straight gabled end roofs with 4/12 pitch. He also loaded the two story roofs himself using a ladder with a lift attached. He would arrive sometime after our 8AM start and leave shortly before we quit. Never saw him sit down, except on the tailgate of his truck when he ate his lunch.
You could hear his hammer going "bip-bang, bip-bang, bip-bang, bip-bang" all over the job. We were all in awe of his abilities.
I saw an advertisement for a small roofing company.It said "we install shingles which are hand nailed"I guess that means higher quality.I saw another advertisement from a painter.It said "all painting done with a brush". It said they never spray on the paint.Again the message was "we have higher quality workmanship"
higher quality? Iquestion that hand nailing=better job. In reality just means slower job=higher costs. I for one am glad of new tech.
There are several reasons why hand nailed can be a better job.I'm not interested in arguing with anyone who isn't interested in learning though
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why?
We talked this through very thoroghly in a thread that Steve Hazlett started a few months ago, because in his quest for excellence he is going back to hand nailing exclusively. Maybe somebody can link that thread. Meanwhile, I will try to summarize briefly.The older re-roofs go on boards instead of panel size sheathing. That means that fairly often nails will fall on the crack instead of solid wood. When you are hand nailing, you know and can add more nails and/or move the nail line a bit to hit solid wood.Depending on how and what brand you are buying, hand nails can be better than gun nails - less likely for the heads to fall off.When you are hand nailing, you have near perfect control of how deep the nail sets. Guns have come a long ways in the last 30 years, but still lack the sensitivity of a human being so some nails get set too deep and others stand proud, requiring a hammer down.See my previous laugh about giving unskilled labor pneumatics. That way too often results in a lot of nails being placed too high in the shingle above the headlap where they belong. Most shingles blowing off are from this or too few nails used. Almost every wind repair I have done in the past twenty some years has been because the nails were driven by a gun and placed too high and/or driven too deep.brushing in paint can result in better work because you are working it into the grain of the wood for a better bond. The painter is getting personal with the product and paying more attention to every square inch.
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This the thread you had in mind?http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=94611.34'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
yes, thanks
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Hey-- FatRoman-----------
I don't know wether to thank you---or curse you to my dying day-- LOL.
here is the back story folks----- FatRoman and I each have families( in-laws)-- that live in the same obcsure area in PA. We realized this litterally 10 minutes before i was leaving to spend thanksgiving ant my sister -in-laws place.
FatRoman is a TREMENDOUS athlete---tri-athlete actually---and his wife also.
at any rate-- FatRoman was planning to run a 9 mile race thanksgiving morning----and I was planning to watch as a spectator------so we took the opportunity to meet in person.
well for a conservative-- FatRoman is a pretty good guy.---that's where the thanking/cursing come into play.
after meeting FatRoman--------i was INSPIRED.
Went back home, started hitting the natatorium obsessively---and am looking for some sprint tri-athalons to enter, LOL
Ok Fatroman------- here is the situation. I have been biking, sedately----- pretty regularly for the last 1-2 years.--After thanksgiving---started swimming again-----within a 2 weeks I was back up to swimming 2 miles( man swimming is boring)
with the running----started out real slow------- suspect knees and all. started walking immediately-------then walk a lap/run a lap, walk1/run2, walk1/run3---------pretty quickly gave up walking at all---just running
damn,damn,damn----it's addictive. now I WANT to run every day. my son tells me his college coach stresses that recovery days are actually more important than the "stress" day( of course for my son---"recovery" days are long ,slow 8 mile runs.
my recovery days are NO running. I only allow myself to run every other day. I FEEL like i can run every day---but i only let myself run every other day.
when the work season starts back up---- i am planning to run a quick 3 mile hill run tues. and thursday at 5:30 AM---and then maybe a long run on sunday. will continue leisurely biking in the evenings
got to admidt i have cut WAAAAAY back on the swimming--it is just so boring. LOL
Have 2 local charity races i want to run this year( i have always been a donor for them, but now i wanna run 'em as well
also looking maybe to do the akron Marathon as part of a relay team( yes, I know-- that's "cheating" )
at any rate------ i don't think i have logged on to Breaktime since about thanksgiving----because i decided to invest the time each morning i formerly spent on breaktime at the natatorium. got up earlier this morning and i see I have already wasted 3 freaking hours here-----------time to get moving.
BTW---- how come i am not really getting any faster---just the distance i can run keeps slowly increasing---- but at the same absurdly slow pace per mile????
Best wishes,
and really---- i owe you a lot---thanks, really
stephen
Hey Stephen,
Well, you just made my morning!! I'm thrilled to hear that you've been doing this. (And I was wondering where you've been. LOL)
First thing...yes, your running recovery is important. Don't skip that, especially while you are getting back to running. Your body needs time to adjust to the new stresses you are putting on it.
Turn the urge to run every day into another biking day, or even running while in the pool. No worry about it being bad for your knees there. You've got a couple of choices on how to run in the pool. You can either find the shallowest lane and run there while pushing off of the pool bottom on each stride (if you do this you might want some aqua shoes, as the rough surface can shred your feet), or you can head over to the deeper water (above your head) and try to 'run' to the other side. You can do this with or without a flotation belt.
As for getting faster on the run... I'd recommend doing what's called a fartlek run. All this means is that you are trying to vary your speed during the run. Once you get warmed up, try to go 1 mile at a slightly faster pace than what you're used to. And by slightly, I mean 15 seconds / mile, not a minute and 15 seconds / mile. The goal is to increase your threshold, and not to leave you breathless on the sidewalk :) Then, go back to another mile at your regular pace. Then another increased effort. Important note you don't have to make this a mile in length. Make it a 1/2 mile if you'd like, or a 1/4 mile. The important thing is to vary the pace. Pick a distance that you are comfortable repeating. As the weeks go by, you should see that it's now easier to run at a certain pace than before. But the amount of perceived exertion should be roughly the same. So, it might be easier to now run a 10 minute mile than it was a month ago, and where you used to really have to work to run that 10 minute mile, you are now working just as hard trying to run a 9:45 mile. Make sense? Same idea can be applied to your bike training, too.
For something that makes your swimming workouts go by with a bit more interest, you might try a waterproof ipod case. The other recommendation I'd make is to look into joining a masters swim group at your natatorium. Or if you are interested, I'd be happy to send you some swim workouts. While I don't mind running or riding by myself, I find that I need some kind of interaction at the pool to break up the monotony. Maybe it's because I spent too many hours training as a kid.
Let me know what you wind u signing up for. And I think running the Akron marathon as a team is a GREAT idea. Not cheating at all. You'd be cheating yourself by passing up an opportunity like that. Will you run with your sons?
Actually, one more idea on your running. Do you have a running store that sponsors group runs? Or an Akron area running club? That might be helpful, especially for your longer runs on the weekend.
If you need anything, please let me know. I'd be thrilled to help out.
And thank you. Not only for making my morning, but inspiring me to get on the bike trainer now!
Best wishes,
Steve'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
Steve,
son #2 isn't interestind in running anymore at this point----- he is more interested in school and his band and making music and that whole lifestyle
son#1-------- he will almost certainly be running in a college XC race somewhere the day of the akron marathon------ so we won't be able to relay that together(though that would be soooo freaking cool---maybe a couple years in the future)
I have 2 easy 5k races picked out( it's been 7 0r 8 years since i ran one for real)
one is a race some good friends organize here"the Run for Rett"--- it's a fundraiser for research dollars to find a cure or prevention for Retts Syndrome( basically a form of autism that generally only hits girls---- our friends have a daughter with the disease-----basically you have a beautifull normal baby girl----and then a few months or a year later she just ---slips away from you Sarah is 12 or 13---but-------she is mostly gone
other race is a fund raiser for a scholarship( my son won the scholarshgip 6 years ago---so it is near and dear to me)
both these 2 races i think my son can run with me.
i am slowly looking for some short triathalons-----one for clydesdales??????.
at this point i am picking races carefully----to baby my knees. the scholarship race is run on grass--perfect.--and the Rett race is laid out so i can run most of it along grass as well.----- i am really shying away from pavement.
currently running indoors ONLY---- irritating 200 meter track
i am taking the over-all developement very slow and controlled. Previously when i did this i would try to do do much to soon------- now---- i took maybe 5 weeks to build up to being able to run a distance i wasn't embarrassed by( please remember our standards are different!!!)----previously-- i ran every day---and hurt every day. now i run every other day---and at the end of a run-- i feel like i could do another----and on the day I DON'T run----- I feel like I SHOULD be running--- but i won't let myself
looking forward to being able to get back outside--into a more appropriate enviornment for "speedwork"--- in the meantime i might be able to finagle something on a treadmill just to force my pace up. i think currently i am still workig at getting confident at my ability to handle a specific distance--- once I am absolutely confident at that distance i think i will be better situated to challenge my pacing
thank you so much,
stephen
Stephen,Well, if you can get son #1 to run the Akron marathon one of these days as a team, and you need a third, I'll come out and lend a hand. Or is it legs?I think your 5k races would be a nice start. And, yes, you can certainly race as a Clydesdale in most triathlons these days.I found a sprint distance race in Akron for you --
September 7, 2008 @ 8:00 AM
Portage Lakes Triathlon and Duathlon
Portage Lakes Park, Akron Oh.A whole list of Ohio events here (you have to click on the 'Register' link to see the info) http://www.getsetoh.com/multi-sport-calendar.phpI think you are on the right path with your running. A little at a time goes a long way. Loops around a short track will do their damage as well, so make sure you reverse direction every so often.As for your knees, grass and wood chips are the best surface in terms of forgiveness, then pavement, and then concrete. Run in the parks, watch your ankles and you should be fine. You'll also want to switch out your shoes every three months or so as the cushioning wears out.Work on getting your distance going first, then worry about speed. And, yes, I do expect some reports on your progress!Best,
Steve'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
Steve,
that portage lakes race looks like a real possibility.--- large field-carnival atmosphere with 1000 participants.
I GOTTA love the clydesdale category
Actually-- portage lakes is where i learned to swim circa 1967
the sept . date means i will have already run the preceeding 2 races--and have better evaluated my ability.
Point of interest-------- i am giving a new hire a try-out this thurs./fri.-- he has a masters in fine arts-- but now needs to actually support himself--- during his interview he mentioned that he is a rock climber--and former tri-athlete-working to get back in competition shape.( sounds a bit like I am hiring a son-substitute as he reminds me a lot of my oldest son)----anyhow--- he would be an interesting co-worker-and not one to bore me with talk about nascar or the NFL
Off to the natatorium,
stephen
"...he would be an interesting co-worker-and not one to bore me with talk about nascar or the NFL..."
Best partner I ever had ended going off to get his Phd from the U. of Chicago - the days really flew with lots of interesting discussions (none about sports!) once we found the work rhythm. Hope he works out for you!
we worked together a few days ago. he worked well--though nothing I had him do was too difficult. He REALLY seemed to enjoy doing work with immediate visible results--you know --actual WORK? LOL
I am actually looking forward to working with him some more. I have seemingly endless work lined up---and the sonner we get down to it ---the better.
thanks,
stephen
Hazlett I haven't run in years but did both competitive distance running and speed skating back in the day. Speed skaters used bicycling as an off season training method so my sister (who also speed skated ) and I used to team up . She pedaled and I ran, kept a hand resting lightly on the back of her bike seat to keep pace until I found the rhythm.
To develop my speed she would kick it up a notch every few days or so . Worked wonders for me. Find your self a partner with a bike and try it.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
Sometimes I'll snap a line for every row of shingles. I'm a carpenter, trim mostly.
When needed, I borrow my dad's or brother's roofing guns. They are a retired shop teacher and a lumber salesman, respectively. The full time carpy that owns twice as many tools as both of them together is borrowing their guns. I actually have used each of their guns more that either of them.
I think this came from when they both needed a help on a roof and called upon the "experience" to help, knowing I don't like roofs. I always agree to help, but always get "stuck" in the valleys or being the starter to make things good.
I'm a lazy roofer. I sit. The time taken to snap every course line makes me feel more productive when I can get rolling.Neither cold, nor darkness will deter good people from hastening to the dreadful place to quench the flame. They do it not for the sake of reward or fame; but they have a reward in themselves, and they love one another.
-Benjamin Franklin
I saw an advertisement for a small roofing company.
It said "we install shingles which are hand nailed"
I guess that means higher quality.
Again the message was "we have higher quality workmanship"
Certainly they are wrong and in their mind they think that a hand nailed roof is higher quality than a gun nailed roof. You don't belive what they think they are trying to say, do you?
It's like a framer advertising, "We frame houses which are hand nailed".
Certainly far from the truth as well.Joe Carola
I'm certainly no expert and I don't have any problem whatsoever using nail guns.But I think the guy might appeal to some people, such as elderly homeowners.My father in law was kind of an old school type of guy who might choose a company who does things "like they did in the good old days"It would be interesting to find out how well the advertising worked.I think now days people mainly are looking for lowest price.
Theres a company here in town that uses the hand nailed roofing as a marketing tool. They do it, but they are manipulating the facts to sell jobs to unknowing HO's.
Smoke and mirrors. Woods favorite carpenter
Yup, good reasoning behind both
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"Frankly, I don't give a flying phuck what you think of my suggestions on this topic. "Feel better now?
I was trying nicely to explain WHY you were getting flack coming across the way you were in several previous posts.
Wanna get you feelings hurt and act like a dickhead, go ahead
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Feel better now?I was trying nicely to explain WHY you were getting flack coming across the way you were in several previous posts. Wanna get you feelings hurt and act like a dickhead, go ahead.
You see, there's another misinterpretation you've made. I've never used the expression, "I don't give a flying phuck" without chuckling. It had no serious intent beyond making the point that I'm not in awe of your knowledge about roofing with asphalt shingles.
Peace brother.
Edited 1/29/2008 7:49 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
piece is goodYou want blueberry or apple? I'm slicing it now
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I've been partial to blueberries, ever since picking them wild in Ontario and making pancakes with them. Fresh caught walleyes for supper, blueberry pancakes for breakfast. <G>
Sounds like seagull souffle` for linch
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Sounds like seagull souffle` for linch
Is that an island specialty? A delicacy for the uninitiated tourists?
DW always gets peeved with me when I feed the seagulls.Take a french fry and throw it up in the air to see if one catches it before it lands.Get enuf of them excited about the game and there are near collisions mid-air!
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Piffen,
I just wanted to clarify something you said a while ago.
I am strongly considering returning to hand nailing---for all the reasons you mentioned.--for the vintage houses we work on--it makes a lot of sense.
I do have a problem with making the switch over-that has nothing to do with speed or quality----rather the problem is with the availability of labor(employees)
roofing being a young mans trade---virtually no one younger than me( I am 45)--has experience hand nailing----------that is any experienced roofer---still young enough to be productive day in and day out-----will ONLY gun nail.
so-- i am gonna have to train my own.
situation is--------- i have a huge backlog of work---.I will be employing 5 men this year. 3 men will be using guns---and the young and in-experienced new hires will be trained to hand nail from the beginning of day 1. the experienced guys gun nailing will be paid slightly over the going rate----but the new hires being trained to hand nail are being paid CONSIDERABLY over the going rate for their current skill level.
I think it will take 2 years---but working from the bottom up I think I can gradually move back entirely to all hand nailing.
I won't be advertising as such---for about 2 years--untill i am sure i can make the transition.
I don't believe this would be feasible in new construction
however working only on old houses--long term I think it is going to be a big plus. After all, I am not selling speed---but rather something quite different.
BTW-- someone mentioned that near them there is a company advertising that they only hand nail roofs-----and the poster seemed to feel that the company was manipulating the facts to serve the companies best interest.---------- OF COURSE they are.---- every company does this. If your company is selling speed--- you will accentuate that in your ads----if you are selling low price---you will stress that----if you are selling your ability to do work that no one else in the area can do-----you will a emphasize THAT-------- objectively I could easily make a logical case for gun nailing over hand nailing----- objectively I can JUST as easily make a case for hand nailing over gun nailing
If i was in the business of selling roof replacements at $220/square---- well I probably wouldn't even consider the hand nailing
however-- i am in the business of replacing roofs at more like $500/ square-----and so other things are possible. Certainley the $500/square customers are buying products and experiences that $220/square customers don't even realize exist.
Best wishes, all
stephen
hah, hah, hah.... you said "dickhead "Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
sorry i missed this pizzin contest... sounds like fun
my only excuse was i was in Orlando with Mickey Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
That's a big problem with forums like this. Somebody does something one time and they're an expert.
Hell Grant, theres guys on here that haven't done it once and there passing out advice like a seasoned pro!
Doug
Brand new clean roof. I had the guys sheath over the skylight opening, so it just needs to be cut out; screw down the lights; and flash.
Brand new clean roof. I had the guys sheath over the skylight opening, so it just needs to be cut out; screw down the lights; and flash.
I like that method. Better protection, all around.
Do you have any questions about installing the flashing?
Otherwise, best wishes for a pleasant experience with your sons. With that many homes and that many roofs in the family, you guys may soon have a sideline.
Just take care while you're up there.
Just take care while you're up there.
You know, nobody's mentioned fall protection.http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
You know, nobody's mentioned fall protection.
Well then, go ahead. Knock yourself out. ;-)
Edited 1/29/2008 3:44 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
You know, nobody's mentioned fall protection.
You're right! I was thinking a giant blue tarp would help keep those pesky leaves out of the gutters.
But since we're on the subject. What do you use? And how does it work? Do you have some eyescrew into the ridgebeam and run a carabiner, rope and harness off of that??'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
What do you use? And how does it work? Do you have some eyescrew into the ridgebeam and run a carabiner, rope and harness off of that??
Here's the harness: I haven't had mine out of the truck for a long time. I don't get on the roof a hell of a lot any more although I've been on one for the last couple of hours in a wind/rainstorm. Don't buy GAF synthetic underlayment. It tears.
http://www.millerfallprotection.com/fall-protection-products/body-wear/hp-high-performance-harnesses
Here's the roof anchors:
http://www.millerfallprotection.com/fall-protection-products/roofing-products/temporary-roof-anchors
here's the lanyard:
http://www.millerfallprotection.com/fall-protection-products/shock-absorbing-lanyards/manyard-shock-absorbing-lanyards
and there's a rope.http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
Thanks. That's very helpful.I try not to go on the roof often. If I've gotta be up there, I want to make sure I'm ambulatory back on the ground, rather than on the ground heading for the ambulance.'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
Roger,
With out a doubt use a gun. If it's a one time thing just rent a couple.
An 18 square porch roof? 1800 SF is a big porch?
But, if you want to do this yourself and have three good helpers, I'd stick to hammers and roofing nails.
With a roofing nailer, only one person will be nailing, it takes some skill to use one properly without over or under nailing or angling the nail, you're dragging a hose around on the roof and creating a higher likelihood of accident (including nailing yourself).
Solar & Super-Insulated Healthy Homes
Hey -
You and I finally agree on something!
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I'd probably just hand nail it if there's four of you on an 18 sq 4/12 roof. Two of you are gonna be watching the other two work with a pistola. You'd each have to drive about 1400 nails over say two days. Not that strenuous. Packing the bundles is the hard part.
http://grantlogan.net/
I agree with Grant (seeyou) in that hand nailing would be the right way to go.
Cutting and fitting and flashing 5 skylights will negate any savings by the use of the gun.
Much more pleasant work environment without all the noise too.
Much more pleasant work environment without all the noise too.
My current shingle subs have a big Rolair (sp) compressor that's pretty darn quiet, but they put it as far away from them as possible and run lots of hose. Still got the gun noise, but it's not much louder than hammer banging. http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
Grant,
They're in it to make money- but this fellow is just doing his cut up porch roof to save some cabbage.
I agree noise is bearable when it's your profession- but a HO could avoid the hassle.
Walter
Then after the job is done they can all commisseraate about the colour of their thummbs for a big family memory
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With all those boys, you can put one full time on peeling the plastic strip off the glue on the backs.
Joe H
Bwahahahahttp://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
You've seen yards covered with those strips, right?
Whole neighborhood with blowing strips of plastic stuck in the bushes......
Joe H
always downwind from a DIY
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;)You gonna let him in on the secret method roofers use for doing that?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>> With all those boys, you can put one full time on peeling the plastic strip off the glue on the backs.
Are you serious? or just puling my leg :^)?
puling my leg ?
Yup.
But I'm no kidding about seeing those things blowing around DIY jobs.
Joe H
Use a gun, for what they go for now days you can't beat them. I'm a trim carpenter and all I use a hammer for is adjusting. I have 7 guns [maybe more] that I use for nailing. For roofing I use a spotter, I align the end butting up to the previous and the other guy lines up the other end. All you have to do is pay attention to where you are putting the nails. To each his own though.
Home Depot has roofing nail guns you can rent.
not casting any doubts as to your ability but if you are not a roofer i dont give one much chance to succeed at installing a skylight correctly , i see more screwups on do it your self roofing then anywhere else, It looks easy and sure you can read the bundle wrapper but the devil is in the details, 3 helpers you have to pay them something plus your time then if its wrong you pay again plus the damage, plus your gonna bust your chops and be sore cause your not used to it, I told ya so , discretion is the better part of valor, gear up and start painting and save there,Dont know the pitch but why risk your sons on a roof, im sure at least one would have trouble on a roof. my advice forgetaboutit
The first couple of skylights you do are the devil. Last year I installed my first skylight in a metal roof. It is installed correctly, but it took me over an hour and a half. Working it all out hurt my head so much I don't think I've been the same since.
Did you not read the original post? He said he had roofed before and it was a 4 pitch ( most would see that as a 4/12).
i thought he said he was not much of a roofer, i dont think he should do it at all, Its easy for the pros i dont think they remember what its like not to know . Im still worried about the skylights
i dont think they remember what its like not to know .
Boy, there's a lot of things I wish I could "unknow".http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
Grant,
There's even less on the carcass after last nites feedings !!!
There's apparently still some marrow in the bones.http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
Grant---- finally bit the bullet and bought a dump trailer this year.
almost every year I ran the numbers--and it always put more money in my pocket to sub out the roof clean-ups---------but the numbers have been geting very close for the last 4-5 years.
this year--- overwhelmingly it will be more profitable to own a dump trailer
Stephen has a new toy scheduled to arrive the end of next week-------- i even had it painted forest green at the factory to closely match my trucks. I am renting a place about 9 blocks from my house to park the trailer and store some equipment( pic's and such) that are inconvienient to continue storing at my house. I have been looking this winter for a building to buy----came pretty close once------and i am continuing to look.-----am willing to buy or build on the right spot----but have a good deal on this rental--so i am in no hurry.
hope everything is well down in Kentucky.
Best wishes,
Stephen.
heh, heh, heh... in for a dime
....... in for a dollarMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
in for a dime, in for a dollar ?
ain't THAT the truth.
just finished a little woodworking project for my house yesterday afternoon.
putting away those woodworking tools today---I mean REALLY putting them away---wonder when i will have time to get them back out?
remember that scene in one of the Godfather movies
Michael Corleone " just when I think I am OUT, they pull me back in"
I did aproject last summer-- my son and i--- stripped the cedar shingles off one side of a customers house---- and re-shingled it by hand------------kind of wistfully thinking "why can't i do THIS every day."
Oh,well--- i have an other role to fill, I guess
we are not all of us going to be Chris Becksvoort
and----- my people need their houses roofed.
if not me, who? if not now,when?
BTW---- son #1 is spending spring break from college working on houses in New Orleans this year.
son #2--also in college-- just produced a cd with his band---and tells me they are being taped to be on a local tv show tonight.
stephen
finally bit the bullet and bought a dump trailer this year.
The only times you'll regret it is when you go to dump it and the battery's dead or when it gets a flat and you don't have a spare. I carry a spare battery and jumper cables and have green slimed the tires, so no problems in the last 6-9 months.
Also, put the tarp over the load if it's gonna rain and freeze later whether it's full or not. I've had a couple of loads freeze in and were hard to dump.
On the hand nail issue: When I began and for the first 10 years or so of my career, I insisted on hand nailing because we were mostly roofing on 1x6. When we started getting more jobs on plywood, I switched to guns. With guns, we get more nails per shingle installed, so I'm comfortable with the trade off.
And I'm either getting old or out of practice. Last time I hand nailed, I was slow "spinning" the nails in my hand. I kept having to wait on myself to get the nails between my fingers. Think I'll stick to the gun if it's more than a square or two.
And, I'm on the verge of buying a telehandler. http://grantlogan.net/
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete (I am so in love with myself) Draganic
theoretically---- the trailer battery is supposed to charge while I am driving down the road-------we will see how THAT works.
Ordered it with a spare tire mount---- but the green slime is an excellent idea. working on how i am gonna get signage on the trailer.
stephen
the trailer battery is supposed to charge while I am driving down the road-------we will see how THAT works.
Works well if you drive 10-15 miles to dump every time. I don't as a rule, so it needs to be charged about every 10 dumps or so. It's hard to keep count.http://grantlogan.net/
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete (I am so in love with myself) Draganic
grant, i will have to clock the milage---- but I am guessing I have to go 10-12 miles to the landfill.
someone told me I should try to load it just a little bit Backheavy--ever so slightly----- too much weight up front and it doesn't wanna go up.
I know what you mean about keeping it covered. frankly--we won't use it much in the winter. I did spring for the tarp roller----but i will need to cover the whole thing to keep it dry with another tarp.
frenchy badgered me years ago to buy a telehandler.-- still no use for it----but i bet i could buy one cheap in todays economy, LOL. really--in 20 years or so we have done exactly one roof where it would have been both usefull and site accessible.
stephen
They rent for about 30$ a day and the rental outfit will have nails for you too.
I used to rent them all the time, finally bought one and I'm not a roof pro.
forget the nail gun
use shingle screws
much easier for a beginner
forget the nail gun
use shingle screws
much easier for a beginner
-----------------------------------------------
Sometimes I can't tell if you guys are pulling my leg. I'v never heard of shingle screws. Now if you would have said "Piffin Screws" I would understand you. :^)
Regards,
Roger
but Piffin does have an excellent line of got all the bases covered screws...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
What's a piffin?If you want to throw more fuel on the fire, ask these guys about nails v staplesor felt v no feltor running felt vertically v horizontallyor work jeans v work kilts
Barry E-Remodeler
No pie for you Master Barry
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I would've preferred blackbird over seagull anyway
Barry E-Remodeler
Here we go ... felt or no felt ...
I used Titanium as the roof will be unvented. I had the carps leave it overhang the 2x6 sub faccia by 4". I plan to nail the finished 1x8 Azek [PVC] faccia over the the titanium [no drip edge]; this one will get Piffin :^) ... Azek to be nailed with 15 ga stainless full head nails [btw: so far the 15 ga nails for the Azek has held for 2 years; most probably because the Azek does not warp and cup like wood would and pull the nails].Where the shed roof meets the house the Titanium overlaps up on the wall by about 4" too. Siding is over rain screen wall. I already figured that staples were no good as I've seen them overdriven too often.
To put things in context for your consideration here...
One thing I noticed with all these responces is that all the roofers said don't bother getting the nail gun, while all those who primarily practice other craft said go ahead and buy it.
It can make things easier, but it can also mean tht it wil take about 18 squares more or less before you even get the hang of it and get it adjusted.
If you have some clumsy body mechanics you probably should not be on the roof in the first place. But if you are handy, there is no reason you cannot have these shingles hand nailed on in a day with all four of you, other than the fact the skylights will take some reckoning.
If you think you might be shinglking for the neighbors or doing more family projects in thefuture, by all means get the new toy.
But it won't save you as much time as it takes to read all this and go the the store to buy a nailer
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where ...
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about 18 squares more or less before you even get the hang of it
Aint that about a factor of ten or even a hunderdt off? <G> First roofing nailer I ever used took about 15 nails to get right, hardest part was later teaching my brother ( a 'famous' softball pitcher) not to throw the coils of nails to me when I was not looking! Takes forever to recoils them<G>
For the cost of a $300 nail gun and a $300 compressor and another $50 for hose he is at $36 a square before he gets on the roof.
How much money is he saving?
I have no idea what roofers are currently getting per square. If it is not significantly more than the investment cost of equipment, then his savings are minimal unless he just hand nails it.
How much money is he saving?
Not the point, it is the excuse to buy another tool!
? Is having 12 compressors too many for a one-man DIY<G>?
I gotta get Frenchy into a discussion again one of these days and discuss which specific type lift to buy <bigger G> Still don't have one of those.
You shock me! Why haven't you built your own yet?;)
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i just thought i might add , as was mentioned, to get a old foam pad and sit on it, make sure you ware sneakers and knee pads, I put these pics up, An old sofa has the best foam, You can sit on it, put your shingles on it and they wont slide, Walk up a steep pitch,with 2, And drop them on your friends from the roof for a laugh.The last pic is of a very big job i did not do .
Bob,
Do you always leave your ladder with just one rung above the roof.
No wonder you need cushions- thats a killer to access that way
If im loading by myself i do as i drop them off at the top. Im not going up on the roof right then.OSHA says 3 rungs above though your right on that.
loading by myself
Last roofing job I did I had it delivered to the roof for $100 extra, well worth it, but that was at Mom's house 2000 mi. away.
On own jobs, back the dozer up to the roof, back the truck to the dozer. Dozer canopy at 8-1/2 feet, truck is old.
Out of bed onto the cab roof, off the cab roof onto the dozer canopy, off the dozer canopy onto the roof.
Beats going to the gym to workout<G>
BTW, DW's top pick for worst job she ever did was melting hot tar and then hoisting it by pulley by the 5 gal bucket to 25 feet up. Ya dont want to drop a bucket of that on your head.
Do you always leave your ladder with just one rung above the roof.
That's the way I like my ladders set up. I hate (and have gotten fined because of it) ladders set with more than a rung above the eave. I like to come over the top of it rather than swing around the side. http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
Grant,
I see the makings of another thread here !!!
Swing around or over the top ?
I'm a swing around man, I like to have something to hold onto as I step onto the roof ---- or more often than not a pipe staged platform.
So for the next big question --------?
Walter
So for the next big question --------?
I guess that would have to be "boxers, briefs, or commando?"
I think the shingling carcass has been about picked clean........http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
Maybe you'll be modelling the Speedo this upcoming fest !!!
I thought the question was up and over or step around.
Wait til Pif sees Redeyes comment back aways--- 'bout hand nailing vs. gun.
THIS is far from over (g)
THIS is far from over (g)
Yup. Democrat or Republican. Black or White. #### or Straight. Hand nail or gun nail.
Everybody seems to be a little testy lately.
I guess I need to start using emoticons at the end of all my sentences 'cause I'm getting pegged as dead serious and that's the last thing I am about most everything.http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
I couldn't figure out why they were picking on you.
Must've been a warm-up round for me
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He is a troll who doesn't know what he's talking about and I've already argued that out before. Besides, this is about an HO, not a daily pro production rate.But I could easily have beginners working for me on a walk-on roof doing four squares a day the first couple days and close to eight a day the second week.Let's see - four squares a day for a family of four into eighteen squares...add a day because of the skylights and it is easily finished hand nailing in two days.myself, I'da shingled it alone myself in a day
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Lord of the Flies eh Mr. Piffin? Good work. I'm sold. You can nail faster than a gun.
Have fun with all that.
#1, that is not what I said but for me it is true.Not on a perminute basis, but on a per day basis. The macchinery takes time to deal with, set up, cleanup, frig around adjusting, ging bak to anil down tha high spots, etc. All that slows the overall rate down.#2, your example of nailing off sheathing has no application whatsoever to shingling and it says nothing about whether the guy hit the framing or left shineers or wasted too mmany nails#3, yes I can produce as muh roof with a hatchet as with a gun. I'm just a bit more tired at the end of the day
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I have not had any issues using a gun, I can see how you might, 20 some years burying the hatchet so to speak.
I have used the same model gun for almost 10 years, I can tell when a nail finds a gap between sheets or planks. Just all in what you are comfortable with. Woods favorite carpenter
if i ware undies or pantys or depends i get a Wedgie so i go bare but make sure i have no holes of rips in my pants so as to not gross anyone out.
so i go bare
One vote for "Commando".
http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
commando...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
C U wears those baggy shorts.That's why he's popular with the ground crowd
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Its pretty hard to nail through heavy steps or skylight flashing by hand, But then again its easy for a novice to blow through the comp if the air is not set right, One can always machine gun seagulls with a nail gun so i vote for a nail gun
One can always machine gun seagulls with a nail gun so i vote for a nail gun
I'm calling PETA.
You're not only checking their poo for flavor, you're eating the damn things too.
Joe H
me too..... three over the edge, and swing around
but grant has a lot more to swing aroud than i doMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
but grant has a lot more to swing aroud than i do
I admire you for that, Mike. Most men wouldn't proclaim that. http://grantlogan.net/
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete (I am so in love with myself) Draganic
Mike,
It just doesn't feel safe to me to not have the ladder to hold onto as youn exit to the roof or staging.
The last pic is of a very big job i did not do .
I wonder if it was hand nailed or gunned?http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
bobby... u flunked shoe tying in 3d grade , dint ya ?
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
he's actually smart. the laces cant snag on anything and trip you.
Instead of using velcro, you can go to a sports store and get a really wide rubberband that goes over your laces, mainly usede in soccer
"It is like hitting yourself in the head with a hammer: it feels so good when you stop"
LOL , no i did get tired of tying my shoes every 5 minutes though and love my Velcro sneakers, By the way its first grade your supposed to be able to tie your shoes, my wife teaches first grade , She came home and said she was tying shoes all day long, I said how about making teams those that know and those that dont, If one helps tie or teach someone else they get a reward card,So far so good and some have "crossed over" to the tyees , I may have learned in 3d or 4th though
yeah, my daughter used to teach 4 year olds... now she runs a Jymboree... lot's of shoe tying and teaching
we've used the foam pads for about 4 years now for roofing.... you can actually buy them at the roofing supply company ( Malco makes a nice one )Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
For starters if this is the only roof you have to do,hand nail it. If you absolutely need a roofing nailer then all of the ones I used have a power setting. Select the power setting that drives the nail flush.
mike
if you hand nail it will be the last roof you do. The only reason you hand nail must be because you don,t want to spend money. I know that sounds harse but thats the only reason that makes sence. New men are watched closely until you have confidence they know enough to nail into shingle properly. You my friend are 25 years behind. Last I knew we are in a production business. That means the more you do the more you make. I for one never nailed a shingle down, unless I was well paid to do. Hand nailing only, is easier to tell when you don't hit the underlayment, if you listen to your gun you can tell the difference.
I can eaasily tell by feel and sound when I am nailing sheathing and get aa shiner, but not with the roof gun. I suppose some guys with some guns can.You are sspeaking here from reference of a production business but this OP is asking from a personal DIY family POV. Samer roof but two totally different processes and need for tools.If we are sshifting to talk about professional production id thread now, then sure, production rates dictate that guns are good.But I did this as my main trade for twenty some years and never had a reason for a gun. It was less than two years ago that I finally got one, the main reason beause I am getting older and out of shape for shingling since I don't do it daily anymore. It makes things easier for my old body. But whenn I bought it, my rate did not go up from what I genrally get nowadays.Twenty five years is about right. I'm behind.But noitice my original ccomment never said this is how professional crews should do today. I simply said that this OP had no need for a gun unless he wanted to buy one and that *I* never saw any increase in speed from using one.way back in the early seventies when I started doing this, on the waalkons with three tabs I was laying sixteen squares aa dday, day in and day out, with a oouple valleys, and done by one or two oclock and home or off to check the next job or an estimate. My own personal besst was 27 squares in one day.Just before I went self-employed doing that, I got hired at an outfit to run their shingle crew and they told me about their newfangled tool that couldd really inrease my production rate. I did manage to get seventeensquares with it one day, better than my normal rate, but most days it was more like 11-12 squares. I was frustrated and told them I'd rather hand nail and went back to sixteen a day
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The poster is a homeowner not a contractor. What's he gonna do with the nailgun when the roof is done. Sell it on e-bay, classified ads, or put in a drawer for the next forty years.
mike
throw it in the trash. Give it away. It makes no difference. He saved himself a bunch of money by doing it itself. Me, I would put it in my collection of tools. He who dies with the most tools, WINS.
Harbor Freight has one for $90 and Grizzly has one for $140. I do have a friend who has a Bosch he is willing to loan. so I thought I'd borrow the one and buy the cheapo. But I agree, the name brand ones are a bit more expensive than I thought they would be.
One of my guys bought one of those Harbor Freight guns. It went flying off the roof by mid-morning. Maybe your luck will be better.http://grantlogan.net/
"Because I really want to live in a country where the poor people are fat. "- Unidentified Indian Immigrant when asked why he wants to come to America
>>> It [the Harbor Freight gun] went flying off the roof by mid-morning. Maybe your luck will be better.I like that ... good mental image. My Grizzly flooring nailer needed some greasing of the cylinder a few times before it got broken in. I would figure a similar break-in period on a cheap gun.Regards,
Roger
You'd be better off sending me the ninety bucks and let me hit you in the head with a hammer. By the end of the day, you will feel better than if you spent it, because you'd still have a chance of making me pity you and giving the money back.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>>>> You'd be better off sending me the ninety bucks and let me hit you in the head with a hammer. By the end of the day, you will feel better than if you spent it, because you'd still have a chance of making me pity you and giving the money back.I like your sense of humor. nice :^)Regards,
Roger
Grizzly over Harbor freight any day. At least it works.
But I've heard it sometimes will take some time away from production for making love to it to make it "want to".
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A lot of companys here sell themselfs as handnailers and say its better which in there case it is because truth is there man cannot keep the gear up and they abuse it and dont watch if there blowing through or not setting the nails deep enough. I would rather rent a Hitichi then buy a cheap nail gun
Better he spent the $90 on beer.
Joe H
he could almost get a bunch of shingle layers to show up for a burp party for that much beer
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I posed almost the same question a couple of years ago, got the similar range of responses. As an amateur, in turns out that for me the "rate-limiting step" (the step in the process that controls how fast the full project goes) was definitely not driving nails through shingles. I spent so much time moving shingles around, laying down chalk lines, installing drip edge, cutting end-shingles, thinking what to do next, etc. etc. that the time I spent hammering nails didn't really affect how many days it took to do the roof.
I've done three roofs so far, but I am definitely still an amateur, and I think that while a nail gun would certainly speed up a professional crew, it might not do that much for you, especially when you factor in the time spent learning how to operate it properly, set nails to proper depth, deal with hoses, and so forth.
I don't like to do roof work. I had made up my mind to never get into that business.
Then I had a strong blast of wind blow of a bunch of shingles. I usually buy tools for any job I do and then keep them because they inevitably come in handy. I decided not get the gun for my roof. I sort of wished I had while nailing with my hammer.
Then I built an addition for someone who liked the way I worked and really worked hard to convince me to do the roof too. Although I was not going to do roofs, I made this one exception, but decided to hand nail. Halfway through the job, I was regretting not buying a gun.
Just a few months later, I built another addition for the neighbor of the first guy. He liked my work and knew I had done the roof on the other house. Soon, I found myself agreeing to do the whole job. This time I bought the gun - a Bostich. It was a great decision. I just wish I had bought it earlier.
Now I am in a new house and I need to reflash around several skylights and reshingle a few areas on a 12/12 roof. I am really glad I have the gun now. Nailing with a hammer on a slope like that is hard, as I found out on the first house which I mentioned above.
Thanks all for your comments and advice.
What started me down this path was the high cost of the first two bids. for 18 square of new roofing
The labor-only bids I got were high and medium: One sub bid it a $2300 plus $125 for each of 5 skylights. Another sub bid it out at $1250 plus $75 for each skylight.
My most recent estimate was $30/square and $1/foot for the flashing and $50 for each skylight. Most likely I won't be doing it myself at that price.
Thanks again,
Roger
Don't expect the same quality of work with that last bid. It sounds very low for a legitamate roofer.
It sounds very low for a legitamate roofer.
Sounds like somebody that just bought themselves a nail gun.
View Imagehttp://grantlogan.net/
I refuse to accept that there are limitations to what we can accomplish. Pete (I am so in love with myself) Draganic
Sounds like something you can do on your own. When I did mine a back, I used roll roofing in the valleys to get some extra protection (would probably use grace ice shield these days).
Chalk lines make the layout a lot easier.
Consider replacing/adding air vents if you need them.
And finally, use a nail gun. I think it's considerably easier to do, and the roof I did - because the plywood was 30 years old - could barely be hand-nailed, but was easily nailed with the nail gun.
the really cheap roofing nailers jam constantly