Dear Abby,
2 odd situations.
Guy designed a house, but screwed it up bad. Accepted money, took too long, many bad/missing details. I was asked to review plans as favor to builder, and provided a critique. Owner and builder agreed it was unbuildable as is. Original guy is fired…or more accurately, they let him keep the money and just throw away the plans. I redesigned it with changes to the shape and layout, and now it’s being built per my plans. All is fine on-site. Original designer emails me asking if the one being built is the same clients as he worked with and if I’d tell him what was lacking in the preparation of the plans. He also mentions wanting to get back into doing more designs of the kind that make him a direct competitor. This guy screwed up 4 jobs for that builder. One was lost for good. I salvaged two, and someone else turned the 4th from a dome into a conventional structure and salvaged it. So yes, one way to look at it is that he’s saying, “I want to get some design jobs that you might otherwise get, and I want you to tell me how to improve my work on those jobs.” Are there other ways to look at it? Would you respond? How?
Second, there’s a guy who does some nice artistic work and illustrations. Someone asked him to create a design. So, he creates a pretty, if expensive and impractical, exterior. Starts referring to himself as a house designer. Doesn’t know building methods, materials, plan drawing, etc. Assumes he’s going to turn it over to an architect to work out the details. Turns out that’s me (though I’m a designer, not an architect)…eek. He doesn’t (and his client doesn’t) realize that it’s going to end up costing more no matter who does it, be/c client paid him for a design, and then will have to pay someone else to fix and complete the design. Also doesn’t seem to realize that taking a concept to someone who also does concepts, and asking them to work behind the scenes on your concept could be a wee bit insulting–“We don’t want any of your conceptual ideas even though that’s what you do, but could you make mine workable and teach me how to make them buildable?”
My question isn’t about helping people or not–I spend mucho time on another forum giving out free advice to potential dome builders–but about identifying when is enough enough. On the one hand, I help people all the time, with no expectation they will or won’t become a client. On the other, how to set limits with people who’ll compete for projects if I help as they ask?
Replies
not so tongue in cheek comment
charge them $10K to spend a week with u as a tutoril(sp)
have your tutorials set up in three parts each part a week long
2bd and third are 20K each
there's free advice and there is teaching, this sounds like teaching
better yet set up 1 day tutorials and charge $350/a head
bobl Volo Non Voleo
For the first situation, if I said anything it would be "You'll have to take that up with your client."
For the second, "I might be in a position to hire trainees in the future, if you would care to leave your name and number".
Cloud, you can't teach anyone vision and you can't gift anyone practical experience, so in one respect you have very little to lose. On the other hand, the bottomline is you don't aid your competitors, especially if you are in a tight market, doh.
Also, some people are worty of your help, and you won't have to ask when you meet them.
some people are worty of your help,
AMEN, applies to a lot of things.
Excellence is its own reward!
as a negotiator its important to say "what i hear you saying is....." . this enables communication. you also might say, " what do you hear me saying?". if this is done politely and sincerely this communication will be productive. you need only ask this question of the person whose design you fixed, in response to his e-mail. you could even answer the questions he asks in a general way, without giving away any secrets, to foster a positive relationship with these people. when they ask for specifics then you can politely ask what its worth for these specifics, or offer to work with them on a project implying that they will be employing you but leaving the actual question of how much money up to them.
i personally enjoy giving advice and opinions on subjects i have some knowledge of. i will even give this advice on subjects i have very little knowledge of! free advice is worth every penny. i frequently find that by explaining my methods or techniques to others i refine them for myself. i have also found that if i befriend someone and help them they will help me in return. just a frinstance, by watching another crews technique i was able to add new methods, and then improve on those methods. when my crew was watched by other crews foreman he did same, and by end of job both crews had refined and improved considerably, and we had fun with and made a game of friendly competition. great source of motivation for the crews.
you say it best yourself with the question "how to set limits with people who will compete...." the answer is to politely ask them.
That helpful attitude will get you a long way in life - of course, you don't necessarily want to get a long way in life when you are traveling in a direction that is counter to your goals.
This may be a great time for you to develop that aloof arrogance that is the hallmark of all truly great designers. (You did know that was a hallmark of all truly great designers didn't you?) The trick is to pull it off like you're just being a card so no one takes it serious but they still get the message.
Or you could just go the easy route and send them both a Hallmark card signed "Bite Me!"
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Cloud,
Just a question about the builder who allowed that guy to screw up 4 jobs - is he a glutton for punishment? I think it speaks very well about you that you are able to step into such a situation and salvage the job - congratulations. As to helping these people, I guess it depends on if you want to build your career or your karma. You set the limits where the two meet. Since you are already a helpful guy and providing free advice on that forum, why not refer these guys there? That's the place where you provide help for free, any other work on your part (including teaching) requires a <generous> fee. If you leave that door open and they step through (pay you the fee and learn directly), they may become competitors, but are they ever going to really be in your class? We're talking about art mixed with science here, and that is a delicate balance that few can master, even with instruction.
Still thinking about my Hobbit House,
Amy
Did Magritte and Dali consider each other competitors?
Interesting thoughts from all. Thanks. If I had an office with employees or co-workers, this is the kind of thing we'd discuss over lunch. I don't, and DW is in a different field without too many parallels, so I come here to think some things out.
Dali and Magritte made me smile. Are they competitors? Well, if they went for the same commission, they were for that instant. In the cosmic sense, less so...art is infinite. Of course, clients' budgets aren't infinite, and they limit themselves to one designer, and if they're gonna pick just one...
The builder? Nice guy. Gives people a long rope. All the jobs were at once, so there wasn't lots of time to learn from one and apply it to the other. It was interesting working to overcome the skepticism of the two I worked with--after prev 9 months and a few thousand $, all they had was an 8.5 x 11 sketch! Ouch. Weren't so trusting of me at first. Understandable. Nice people.
Boss makes a good point.
In light of his point, one relevancy...
I may be wrong, but my gut feeling in both the stated cases, is that the person asking for your help has already tried to make money at your expense.
I think they have already shown their stripes. They are simply hoping to take further advantage of you.
Give them some time. Maybe in a couple years you can start some sort of tutorial school, and invite them to enroll.
A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
Oh man Aimless- you hit on the perfect solution for Cloud when you raised the specter of Magritte and Dali! There's your designer air I was talking about Cloud! Here, I've taken the liberty of modifying a Magritte quote to suite your imeadiate needs. Run this one by them and see if they don't both leave you alone to bask in the vastness of your cereberal superiority.
"My drawings are visible images which conceal nothing; they evoke mystery and, indeed, when one sees one of my designs, one asks oneself this simple question 'What does that mean'? It does not mean anything, because mystery means nothing either, it is unknowable."Cloud "Magritte" HiddenKevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
I'm displaying my ignorance of Art History. I shall have to look up Magritte and study some.
Just Google. It's faster than going to the library, and the low resolution will affect your enjoyment not at all.
To help refine your search: Rene Magritte was a surrealist. I think once you see some of his pictures you'll realize you've seen his work before (such as the 'Son of Man', which will probably look familiar). He did a lot of work with clouds, and one 'La Victoire' shows a cloud going into a door - could almost be an emblem for you. I swear I've also seen one that really grabbed me of a cloud going into a window, but I couldn't easily find it on the net.
Maybe View Image?
No, but I like it! The one I remember had a window sort of hanging in the sky, and just one fluffy cloud. Thanks for posting it!
Something Aimless said struck a chord with me: " I guess it depends on if you want to build your career or your karma."
I think there's 2 ways to look at it - Are you trying to help a competitor learn how to replace you, or further the industry?
Maybe I should explain it differently. I would never consider helping to train the truss designer of a competitor in order to make him better at his job. Seems to me that would be "helping the enemy", so to speak.
But what if I joined a trade organization that attempted to make ALL truss designers better? That would be a different scenario. I'm all for anything that would make the industry better as a whole.
Trying to figure out which is which in your profession is up to you.
"You can only govern men by serving them. The rule is without exception." [Victor Cousin]
Cloud
Second situation. I would approach it as a straight commercial transaction. The client likes the "house designer's" concept and not yours, that's life. The "house designer" wants you to clean up the design and make it buildable, that's a commercial transaction. The key question for you if you assist is: who has the client contracted with, the "house designer" or you? If the "house designer" then how much of the cost is borne by the client is the "house designer's" problem. If you contract with the client, make sure the "house designer" signs the rights to his design over to you for the project – you don't want him coming back later and sueing for copy right infringement.
If the "house designer" wants to learn how to make his design buildable, and you are prepared to teach, you could take him on as an apprentice, possibly unpaid or for a fee (not all that unusual a practice) – and get him to enter into a non compete agreement for say 5 years after he leaves you. You might set conditions like he must complete a builder's course, work as a framer's off-sider, etc for 12 months before he joins you.
First situation. What did it cost you to get the qualifications (not necessarily the experience) you bring to your profession? Is it reasonable to charge the guy the same or should it be more?
In both situations what the people are really saying is that "I recognise that my work is substandard. I need to learn to do much better. Learning from you has more value to me than going to college." So charge them accordingly. For example a 12 week course with someone like David Charlesworth (a high end English furniture maker) costs about $6,500 (plus another $2,000 for tools and materials). Closer to home, a five day furniture building workshop with someone like Garrett Hack cost about $100 PER DAY. You know your own industry, but in respect to learning how to make fine furniture, these fees are reasonable.
Hi Ian. It's far, far more likely that they'd see "sucker" tattooed on my forehead, than "teacher." And even if I were qualified to do that, which I don't believe I am, it's not my schtick. I just like doing my work for my clients, plus whatever helps the industry grow. Just feeling around for the best ways to blow 'em off without appearing arrogant, mean, childish, petty, etc. be/c that stuff always comes back to bite me. Through the variety of responses I have some ideas.
hi jim-
i think it comes down to one way or another, you only have your time and expertise to sell. would you design a house for a client for free? no. why even question whether or not teaching someone else what you know about designing a house would also qualify as a strictly commercial transaction? then decide if you want to spend your time on this particular "job"? for a number of perfectly legitimate reasons, probably not.
in a relatively specialized field such as yours, with a fairly (ok, extremely) limited clientele, i wouldn't recommend going out of your way to increase your competition. to look at another way, is this other party's track record such that you consider them a sincere and committed practitioner of the artform? i'd have to say no. he appears to be like someone who is looking to cash in on the success of those who broke ground before him and also wants to pick your brain- and therefore acquire as much of your hard earned knowledge as quickly and cheaply as possible- having learned the hard way it's not as easy as it looks.
offer to instruct him on some sort of consulting basis (avoid any official apprenticeship/employee/student arrangements- they can be legally sticky when it comes to accreditation, certification, etc)- for a fee roughly the equivalent of 6 mos to a year of what he'd then be qualified to charge working full time in the field, depending on how long you would expect the "course" to be. from a strictly economic standpoint, that wouldn't be a bad deal. you'll soon find out if he's serious or not.
m
Jim,
Id charge them . They want to make money on your experiance/expertise. Put it this way ford dont go to chevy and ask them how to design/build a car for free. HD dont go to Lowes and ask how they should run their business..(well maybe they do in that case) :>) but you get the idea. im back at karate again and a guy wants me to teach him Japanese kata as he is a kempo stylist. I said sure for him to let me work out in his school and some kempo lessons. I mean nothing is free.
Darkworksite4: Subterráneo en la república de gente de Calif
I ended up telling the first that ethically, I cannot discuss a client's project without their permission, and if he has a question about what a former client of his is building, that he really needs to be asking them.
The second one, I declined the offer to help be/c of current commitments and my belief that a design needs one vision. The notion of multiple strong-willed designers on a project seems like a sure recipe for conflict--as mom would say, "Too many chiefs, and not enough indians," or "too many cooks and not enough bottle-washers."
Saying "no" has always been tough for me (what can I say...I'm "easy"), but largely through what I see and learn here, I'm improving at it. Now if I could only learn that "no free estimate" thing! Ha ha ha.
Saying "no" has always been tough for me
Singing my song there... I find the personal satisfaction of contributing to the well being of others is pretty rewarding. I have always been the softy for a sad story who gives away the store. Maybe I have a deep psychological need to see myself as the knight in shining armor but I think on several occasions I've come off more like a chump. The damsel at the house has certainly helped me curb my excessive chauvinistic leanings. :-)>
I still over commit but having that family at home, and building a place to house them, has made it easier than ever for me to decline the opportunities to spend my time and resources elsewhere. I'm starting to realize that it's pretty pointless to be a hero everywhere but home.
... but I still give away the store from time to time.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
I have learned not to say NO.
I say that is not within my specialty, I am too busy, etc, etc.
I just don' tuse the "N" word <G>.
Cloud Hidden quote: “It's far, far more likely that they'd see "sucker" tattooed on my forehead, than "teacher." And even if I were qualified to do that, which I don't believe I am, it's not my schtick. I just like doing my work for my clients, plus whatever helps the industry grow.â€
I’m not a designer I work by myself, with my hands. Lets say another builder, carpenter, handyman or what ever contacted me to state they saw a tile job I had done. Then said that they would like to get into tile but just don’t know much about tile work, would I show them how to do tile? Time teaching them is going to pull me from a paying job. Teaching requires DEMONSTRTION. Would you expect me to work a job for free? That is what this person is asking of you. You will likley have to take one of his/her designs and go step by step stating problems, listing standard procedures, redrawing to demonstrate, etc.
My wife is a teacher, she gets paid by the school district to do her job, and any student that needs assistance can do so before or after school. However she does offer tutoring at very reasonable $35 an hour.
If put into a similar position, I would state to the person that my time is money and would be willing to tutor at a fee. I would provide a list of resources they could study on their own, such as publications, periodicals, trade schools etc, then send them on their way. You are a professional and professionals get paid for their work and knowledge. Anybody that doesn't respect that doesn't deserve help.
As for the “designer†that wants you to make is design “buildableâ€... I do a lot of sub work that very likely passes as the person’s that I subbed for. Oh well as long as the check clears. But your situation is very different attempting to take another design and make it work will require a lot of aspirin. So instead of blowing somebody off I just up the ante to send them packing. If they bite it makes for a nice payday.
Good luck. Keep us posted on the results.
Scott R.
Edited 10/4/2003 10:36:19 AM ET by Scott R.
Jim,
Let me buy ya a drink ya did good.
Darkworksite4: Subterráneo en la república de gente de Calif