Currently I am a biomedical engineer, but I’m thinking it’s time for a career change (yes, another one of those!). I’m 32 and live in the San Francisco East Bay area (San Leandro). I have had an interest in carpentry for years, but no professional experience. I love working with my hands and problem-solving – which is why i got into engineering, only to discover that while engineering does involve a lot of problem solving, there’s not so much working with hands. However, from my engineering training I have a good knowledge about how and why things work the way they do. From this training and the reading I’ve done in FHB, JLC, and many books, I have a good understanding of carpentry. What I lack and desire is the breadth and depth of professional experience.
So my question is, is it feasible for someone like me to get started in carpentry, but still be able to pay my mortgage (remember, this is the Bay Area)? What could I expect to make the first year? How quickly would that go up, assuming (as I do) that I were good at it? My interest is mainly in finish carpentry, but I’m enough of a generalist that I would want to be somewhere where I could do a little of everything.
Any advice anyone has, especially people in the Bay Area, would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.
Replies
Please don't take this as a bash, because it is no way ment to be.
Since you brought up the part of living in the Bay area and your mortgage, maybe you should tell what your mortgage is before going any farther.
My wife was offered a job in Fremont and you can't find a a 2 bdrm house for less than $500k. That equates to around $4k a month just for P/I and Taxes.
For her, that's roughly $24 per hour, or $48k per year, just for housing. They wanted to pay her $40k
I wish you all the best.
Edited 5/2/2006 5:03 pm by migraine
Thanks for the response. Like you say, things are pretty expensive here. The mortgage comes out to a little over $2k/mo. And there's childcare costs on top of that. Currently I'm earning ~$65k/yr, and I just got a raise that takes effect in July, so I know I'm looking at a pay cut if I get into this. However, my wife is a lawyer ("unfortunately" a public-interest lawyer, so not making the big bucks, but she may be able to take up some of the slack for a while). So the question is whether I'll be able to get anywhere near that level of salary after a few years if I prove myself on the job. Obviously I'm not looking to get rich, just pay the bills and be able to do something I enjoy. Again, thanks for the response.
If you show up with the right attitude, and show up every day on time, and demonstrate a willingness to learn and be part of the team and carry your share of the work ... most anybody here would hire you. As others have pointed out, few do this to get rich.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
sht... you mean this isn't the right career if I want to be a millionaire?
to the orginal poster, I just interviewed a guy who sounds much like yourself, about your age maybe a little older, looking for a career change and has some limited experience, but not someone I would feel comfortable letting loose on his own project.
Great attitude, willing to learn, seemed like he would be a great employee. Un-fortunetly my needs require someone with a better skill set at this time. That said, I may be looking to add on another guy in a few months as a helper and he would be my first phone call before putting an add out.
So there are oppurtunities out there for you. I agree with whoever suggested taking sometime, buying some tools, and maybe doing a few side projects to gain a little more experience before making a huge leap.
For what it's worth, if we hired the above guy we're probably talking about a wage around 13-15/hr with health, gas & phone check, 401k, and life insurance. That's wages in Lawrence KS, I don't know how that translates into the bay area.
Why don't you start slow? Keep your job, build a shop, get some tools, build some cabinets or furniture, a deck, covered patio etc......see what happens.
Sorry, I guess I didn't make it clear, but I'm not entirely unexperienced - just no professional experience. I have a shop, I have tools, I've undertaken a variety of building projects. I'm not approaching this from an entirely naive or romantic viewpoint (I hope). I just don't have a sense if I'll be able to support my family after a reasonable amount of time of gaining experience. Or rather I don't have a sense of what a "reasonable amount of time" is. Thanks for taking the time to respond.
I've hired about 15 guys like you (because I was a guy like you, once). One of them lasted two months and he quit just before I had to fire him. You're going to have to take a major cut in pay and probably be the helper for a guy that just barely got out of high school, but can cut a set of hip rafters that drop perfectly in place faster than you can nail them in. Your tool belt will get nailed to whatever surface you lay it down on whenever you take it off and go to the portajohn. When you're in the portajohn, someone will back a truck up against the door and not move it untill they get ready to go home. Hope they don't have any M80's on the job site or they'll get dropped down the stink hole. Sure you've done a little "carpentry" on the side. The guys you're gonna be working with have done a little "engineering" on the side.
You're even there, except you've stepped into their world. The more you brag about your education the harder it will be until you get accepted. The faster you learn and accept the system of the lead guy (and not try to re-invent the wheel) the faster you'll advance. That's not to say don't make suggestions, but fully understand the system before you offer unwanted suggestions to change it. OK, all that being said, I encourage you to do it. I much happier (although poorer) than I would have been if I'd stayed in the engineering profession). I've been able to do some projects that my great granchildren will get to see. Go for it and good luck.
Its never too late to be up to date.
http://grantlogan.net/
Get ready to earn between $12 and $24 dollars an hour. Can you live on that? You won't earn more unless you go union or self employed and that is a whole 'nother' story.
Edited 5/2/2006 9:36 pm ET by KirkG
I was gonna guess $12 to $15/hr for a beginner with no tools.
Might even be $18/hr for out there ... but that's lead carp money here.
Even at that ... I'd not be considering a career change.
I read daycare ... I'd be staying put and providing the best that I could. Leave the hobbies for the weekend.
Then again ... I made a similar swtich about 10 years ago ... but not at such pay extremes ... and ... I already had a huge background in the trades and a garage fulla tools. Plus ... I'm not normal.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
>>>>>>>>>>>>Plus ... I'm not normal.You can't be and do what we do. Prerequisite.
Its never too late to be up to date.
http://grantlogan.net/
hey ... as an aside ...
I noticed in that union thread yer pissing off a bunch of people again.
ya seem to be doing that a little more often lately ...
and I gotta say ...
I'm really starting to like yer posts!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
>>>>>>>>>>>>I noticed in that union thread yer pissing off a bunch of people again.Funny how if you critisize certain members of a club, they all get mad.
Its never too late to be up to date.
http://grantlogan.net/
Yup.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
I totally agree with your remark about following the system of the lead guy and learning through experience. everybody has a way of doing things and how people fit together in the boss's system is key. I've hired guys with less or little experience that produced more and made the job flow better than other more experienced guys that wanted to tell me how to run my jobs. I'll teach guys anything if they want to learn, but if I'm writing the checks & have to warranty my work, I want it done a certain way & don't want to have to stop & explain why it needs to be that way. Everyone has their job & tasks, & when people work together, the job flows good, it's profitable and in the long run we all make more money. It just takes time to gain the experience, have to be willing to deal with the adverse conditions as well as the good, and keep an open mind because after 25+ years in the trade I still learn alot from other guys and want to get better every year
Not that you can't make money doing this stuff but I doubt you could make nearly what you are making for 5 years or so. Experience, business knowledge, learning enough to be versitile, I just can't see it.
I was in a profession without your technical education but made 20k more a year than I do now.......and that is in Ohio. California can only be worse. Just my opinion. DanT
Don't forget that working in construction is a lot more physical than engineering. I spent ten years behind a desk, and after a few full days on a physical job. my body sure tells me about it. Although, you could forego any health club membership costs when working in constuction!
Bottom line is you gotta like what you do, or life is more difficult than it has to be. Gotta weigh the pros and cons, and maybe cut back on expenses to make it work.
We went from a 2-professional-income family to a one-income-plus-partial. Wife went from being the secondary income to being the breadwinner/insurance provider literally overnight, with absolutely no change in her job pay, status, or responsibilities, but it was a tremendous burden for her to get used to. Been 6 years now, and we may just be getting used to it.
Not to mention the change in the family finances. Once you get used to making the bucks (and spending them) it's hard to take a major hit like that without serious repercussions, despite how much you discuss and plan everything out beforehand.
Good luck, wish you all the best.
Pete Duffy, Handyman
For me, you won't find a better job than carpentry.
And for most carpenters (not all), it will be lower paying than what you have now.
For the pure joy of working in a profession such as this, I would ditch that desk job in a minute.
Just know that the odds are you will be taking a permanant cut in pay.
As to your preferance for finish work, EVERYBODY wants to specialize in that end of it. It looks easy, even glamorous (ie Norm, et al), but only bulk expirence will determine if you can profit at that part of the market. A few years in this trade is only a drop in the bucket - it can take much longer than that to get proficent enough to be profitable and a lot of that will be determined who is teaching you the ropes.
Best of luck and I hope you go for it.
Terry
I bet right now you could build a house... and even do great trim work... and I'm serious about that... but to have value in the trade you have to be able to think 5 steps ahead and be work'n while you are thinking... these guys on here can frame a house in the time it takes me to frame a wall.... It's not only about quality it's about quality and production and know'n when the 2 need to meet...
I build, design, and manage... I only work for me for many reasons... I won't be rushed... I like to do things my way (never found a better way.... see the problem)... but i'm sated... my projects are personal... it's my design, and it's my money... you don't get more personal than that.... I've done less than 10 jobs for others in my life and in all of em... it was a "we need this.. please just do it" situation ...
From your post... I'm guess'n you just aren't happy and see nothing concrete from your work now....
I think there are design firms or custom builders that would be interested in you where your education and your desire to have real input and some hands on would mesh.... dude you have value and under use what you can bring to the table is just cut'n yourself short... I know in your education you think you have learned the how & why of what makes things work... but 90% of the guys on this board can look at about anything and know how & why it was built the way it was and in what order... it's called the natural order of things and to do what these guys do day in day out it's something you have to know on instint...
65k now... and i'm guess'n with the add ons it might really be 80k.... dude jump into swing'n a hammer and you might get 4-500 week with nothing else but a hope you have a job next week.....
you might think it'd be cool with your wife for her to pull the load for awhile.... but thats something i'd never assume even if she told me so and begged me to go swing a hammer...
I think there is a better place for you where you'll be sated... i just don't think low man on a production jobsite is it... my grand dad use to tell me "son i'd pay you what you're worth but i know u can't live on that"
p
Might want to go over to JLC online and hook up wth poster named Dick Seibert. He is a lawyer/ builder nearing retirement living in the Bay area. Very opinionated guy but very savvy too. It would be worth your while to talk to him. From his post I know he started as a carpenter in the 50s...Good Luck, tell him Andrew R. sent you.
The guy that works with me is a bit like you... lots of experience in another business, but not much work in the trades (although he has remodeled a couple of houses he's owned). Anyway, he's waaayyy smart and that makes up for lack of experience in a lot of ways. I can ask him to solve problems and he comes up with good stuff that I might not think of. He's got plenty of aptitude for the work, is easy to be around, highly presentable to customers, reliable, and does not blast the radio.
You may have to pound the pavement a bit to find a job, but it's do-able.
When I was in the East Bay working as a PM I would have been happy to pick up someone with your background. You would have started around $15 and if you were absolutely reliable and got along with everyone, used your head, and had some solid mechanical aptitude you could move above $20 pretty quick. $25 is a solid carpenter and $30 is the guy leading the job. That was 3+ years ago so those numbers are probably higher now.
There are numerous A++ remodeling contractors in the Oakland/Berkeley/Piedmont areas. That's where you want to be unless you feel like hoofing it over to SF or Marin, or maybe out thru the tunnel. I suppose there's some good stuff in the Silicone Valley also.
Hey David-
I'm moving from central washington to berkeley in the fall, and hoping to get a job remodeling with maybe one or two other people. A small, jack of all trades company I guess. Do you have any strategies for finding that sort of person/Co.? Seems to me that the east bay probably has plenty of them, but they might be below the radar to some extent.
I'm in the same boat as the OP to some extent- most of my carpentry experience is on my own house, but I've done some professional carpentry and a lot of backcountry carpentry- stonemasonry, bridge building, including being a crew supervisor. The bay area seems like a good place to go to do high level creative work, I'm looking forward to it.zak
"so it goes"
Here's one thing I know: there's an unofficial contractor's association in the East Bay called the 'Splinter Group'. If you talk to some contractors there you will find it and can go to the meetings. This would be invaluable for networking. If I were to move back to CA the very first thing I would do is go to the meetings and press the flesh, get myself some work.
The #2 strategy is to call some of the larger companies and tell them what you're looking for. They may be able to refer you, as they often sub out work to the types of outfits you're talking about. McCutcheon Construction, Canyon Construction, Winans Construction, Creative Spaces, to name a few.
Hey Izzycat/Zak
I am actually a small, primarily a remodeler over in Marin County (mostly Southern Marin to be more precise). Being a younger guy myself who appreciated clients giveing me a "chance" when I am for the most part self taught and educated via books, this website, etc. and a guy with a knack for building things who can do very nice work (if I do say so myself), I'd gladly like to give you a shot. The thing I can't offer is a ton of money, but if you're willing to learn and grow with me, I say let's give it a shot! I definately have the need for smart hardworking craftmen. If you're willing to make the drive, let's talk!
Also, I have to add to some of the other comments about this business. I left a multiiple six figure income, corporate executive position to come back to my roots (summers during high school, college, etc.) and go back into construction. It's in my blood, I love carpentry, building, creating, problem solving and delivering extremely high end quality work in the old fashioned craftsman style. I have to tell you I havent achieved my old income level (yet), but I've never been happier!! If you love it, you will never want to do anything else. There are alot of "quick buck" carps and contractors around here (California), but very few of us, like all the guys on this forum, that not only are craftsman but love this biz!
KidBuilder, amongst all the sober and rather negative (and undoubtedly realistic) responses, your post is a bright spot. Intelligent, talented, motivated people will be successful. The original poster seems to have what it would take, especially if he moves toward self-employment. Working with/for someone else, initially, would probably be a wise move, though.
Allen
Keep your job and buy some rental property and do some repair work on it while acquiring tools, truck, experience, etc.
As you get better and more experienced do some small handyman type jobs on the side to see how you like working for people.
Work it into a full time business if it goes to suit you.
You might have to move far away to a more affordable metropolis to get a foot hold, gain some experience before moving back and starting your own company.
Grunge on. http://grungefm.com
The short answer is that you will never make even close to the money you are making now as a carpenter unless you are self employed. Do what makes you happy but dont romanticize it too much. The work will be hard and dirty and the pay will be low.
I would suggest keeping your day job and do some carpentry at the weekend.
If that goes well, then see if you can cut your job down to 4 days a week. Sorta ease into it.
I get people all the time say how nice it must be to work outside etc etc. They always say this when its a beautiful autumn day or something. I tell them when its freezing cold and pouring rain its not so much fun, when its a searing hot day and all ya want is some shade......not so fun.
There are excellent days of swinging a hammer and there are days of 100% slog and grind where you hafta wonder is it worth it. ( right then, no, but that all gets forgotten when the next amazing day comes round :-) )
Just dont get all caught up in the romance of it and jump to find you cant go back. Slower is faster and a lot easier on the wallet. seriously
Not an exponent of the DILLIGAF system.
If you hate your current job, quit and go for it. If this is not the case but you enjoy carpentry, work for either yourself or a small contractor on weekends. You'll get feel for it after a few months,then know whether to make a career change.
As far as making a living in your area,can't help you there. In South Jersey where I live, at least half of the labor force is immigrant help.This presents another problem as far as wages go, I won't get into that,enoughs been said lately on that subject.
mike
I was in a similar situation, I was in construction, owned my own biz for 10 years and was making a good living at it. I was making $75-85,000 a year. Then the cost of health insurance went thru the roof (family plan was $850 per month, I hear its over $1200 now) workers comp, liability insurance went up and all my helpers wanted $150 per day and didnt know what a sawzall was. I grew tired of the business and yearned for a civil service job. Thats exactly what I got a maintainence job for the school district where I live, making $40,000 per year. A huge pay cut. Or so I thought. Now I'm up to $50,000 because of a contract/ union settlement, I have full health benefits, vacation time, pension, paid holidays, sick, and personal time. The job is PLUSH! so if you add all that stuff together I'm right where I was and I'm way happier. I still do tons of side work on my own on weekends. If its a big job I take a few vacation days and get paid to do side work. It cant be beat! Rememeber hardly any contractors that hire you arent going to give you benefits, a pension, or paid days off. Its hard to take days off when you know its going to make you come up short at the end of the month for your mort. It affects your family life too when the wife and kids want to go on a day trip and you dont want to take off baecause you dont want to lose money. If your absolutely miserable I would start doing stuff on weekends and see if its really gonna make you happier. I really started to resent that almost everybody I knew was off on Sat and Sun and I was swinging away every Sat morn.! Good luck though just my 2 cents!
Thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses.
Some of you have suggested "easing into it", but does anyone have any ideas how to do that. The biggest problem I see in that approach is that in CA you need a license to perform any job over $500, including materials, and you need several years of professional experience before you can get a license. Is this really as limiting as it seems? Are most "handymen" licensed, or do they generally keep their jobs under $500?
I could imagine making a deal with someone where I work for them really cheap on the weekends and maybe Friday/Monday for a while and they evaluate my potential and decide whether to hire me for real. Is this something any of you professionals would ever consider? How would you find a person like that?
So is it possible to ease into a career in the trades (in CA)?
The answer is to work part time for someone. You'll gain experience and see if you like it. Many times GC's like to have someone ona part-time basis to work weekends or for busy times.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
There's no way you need a contractor's license. Unless I am completely misreading your posts you do not have the experience to work solo. Get a job with a solid company and stay there, work full time, move up (quickly) and learn to live on the income it produces. Commit yourself to becoming a journeyman builder... this takes time, at the very least the four years a license requires.
Ideally, if you want to run your own shop, you move up to the point where you're running jobs for someone else, and even working as the Project Manager (office work, no tools). I did 3 years in that latter role in a couple of different companies and that's the experience that has made me able to run my own company. I was a solid tradesman for 10 years prior to that, but had no clue about how to sell jobs, write contracts, manage multiple projects, hire and fire subs and crew, etc. etc. etc. I would hate to be in business for myself without what those guys taught me.
I agree with everything you say (bet you hear that all the time, right). One question - how do you define quickly, in terms of "Get a job with a solid company and stay there, work full time, move up (quickly) and learn to live on the income it produces." Does this tend to be months or years? Obviously I'm not going to become a journeyman builder anytime soon, but what's a typical timescale for moving up within a company, assuming I display the requisite skills? Thanks again for your help. It's especially useful getting advice from someone who knows the Bay Area.
Edited 5/3/2006 6:10 pm ET by izzycat
How quickly is dependent entirely on you.
If you are smart and reliable you can become invaluable to a small contractor very quickly. Most contractors feel the labor market for new employees is very tight, the number of burned out or flaky applicants is very high, the commitment level of a lot of people is low, etc. A few months with the right crew and they will be depending on you. I had a guy with about 3 years experience at the time I started him running small jobs. He was totally dependable and understood how to interact with people appropriately in difficult situations. He was a pretty good carpenter too, but not great. I think he was at $25/hr. plus benefits.
One of the best things you can do is learn about building by reading books and magazines and checking out forums like this one.
I don't like to work weekends if I can help it. So I wouldn't necessarily be hiring just weekend help. I need help that are:
1) either qualified to do the job 100% without supervision,
2) can be my right hand man (means thinking and acting one step ahead of me)
3) strickly labor.............but knows how to work (if you know what I mean).
Good luck, brother.
Grunge on. http://grungefm.com
I posted a similar post a few months back, and got a similar set of responses--mostly supportive with good ideas (thanks all) with a few snide ones from goons that I disregarded.
I've made the move from the science/tech area into construction after spending a couple years with my own custom furniture shop. I'm glad I made the switch and I'm having no problems on the job. The pay is of course lower than a tech job, but it lacks the 24/7 headache that comes from working in that business.
Best advice I got (though I didn't need it) and will pass on: be honest with yourself and in protraying your skills to a prospective employer.
I can barely afford a mortgage here in NJ with my wife working--I don't know how you'll manage in the Bay area, but good luck.
Izzy,
First things first. you've gotten some great advice here. Problem is, you've already headed down the trail of following your heart, not your head. Thats not all bad but it could be if you don't step back and take a good hard look at it.
OK, no one has said it yet so I will. Anyone who says money CAN'T buy happiness just hasn't found the happiness store yet. That doesn't mean you can't be happy without money. it just means some people underestimate money's role in the whole thing.
I started working for the family business and then went to work for someone else after it was sold. I eventually worked for myself ( Twice actually, but that's another story). Most of that time, I was kicking myself for not going to college like my brother and sister (both broke well into six figures well before the age of 30).
As an employee I struggled to break $45K a year on a regular basis. The first year I worked for myself? Cut that in half when it was all said and done. took about a year and a half to get up to that number again. I eventually did do far better than that. but doing far better than that sucked the fun out of it for me.
I love being a Carpenter. I hate mixing it with being a business man. The business makes it almost unbearable for me. And that's what it is, a business. Even if you work for someone else, it's a business. you can't escape that fact.
SO you have to ask yourself some questions. First? How important is money to you? How much do you really need? How much does your wife need? Be honest with yourself your answer doesn't mean a damn thing to me or anyone else out here. Only to you.
Second? Do you want to make this move because you love the work? Because you hate what you do now? Because you have some romantic vision of what it will be like? Rememebr, a hobbie isn't a hobbie the first time you charge for it. It's a job and lots of jobs suck.
Third, how will your wife handle all of this? Can she shoulder the load? Can her job provide the benefits and 401K and all the other things you most likely won't have?
Fourth? How much money does she need to be happy?
The question isn't if someone would hire you. They would. How much would they pay you? Maybe a little more than a helpers wage at first. There is no doubt you're smart. If you're dedicated you'll move up quickly. Up to a carpenters wage that is.
Not long ago I was offered a job that would pay me $60K a year. I would need to provide my own tools and something to haul them around in. I would pay half of the health insurance costs ($350 a month) and not retirement plan was offered. It was a good offer for my area. East Coast Central New Jersey is where I would be working.
It's also a $20K a year pay cut, a loss of a months vacation and no cost health coverage and a 50% pension at 20 years.
If you really want to do this, find a very high end builder in your area who wants someone cleancut and smart who is willing to learn the right way to do the hard stuff. those are the guys who usually offer what you'll need to support your family.
Be ready to accept that even if you start your own business you may never make what a senior engineer makes.
Before you give up on engineering, try looking around a little in you're field. I can't tell you what to do, but I can say what I'm doing...
I'm 26. I have a house that is a basketcase, and a job that I hate (I'm a MechE.) The house keeps me pinned down to this general area (Detroit.)
I originally planned to finish my house, and go back to school, and pick up a law degree. It's definately a desk job, but it would allow me to make enough money that I could retire in the forseeable future. I took the LSAT on a whim, and did fairly well: 161.
I kind of had a change of heart, and started to look around at engineering jobs. You need to actively look for the "good" jobs, but they are out there. Do you work for a large corporation? Find a job that you'd like, and ask "what do I need to do to get myself in a position to get to that job." Talk to different people. Talk to vendors and suppliers, see if any of them have any jobs more up your alley. Lastly, take no for an answer, but keep talking to other people until you hear yes. It's taken me a couple of years, and I may need to quit and re-hire so my boss can't block it, but I may actually be able to get to a part of this company that I like. If not, it's time to find a different company.
I suspect you're kind of in the same boat. A lot of times, it's easier to quit something alltogether, but engineering's a field that's difficult to re-enter. I'm going to at least give it another couple of years, and see if I can make it work out.