Once upon a time, an architect designed a dome. Charged a bundle for the concept and did not provide prints. Client felt stranded, had problems with early construction, and called me for assistance. I provided consultation, redesigned the floorplan to suit client, and produced prints. Client elated and happily finishing house. Said architect calls client a year later and asks if she ever got prints. She says, yup and mentions whoo did them. Architect expresses interest in seeing them, and repeats the request a couple weeks later. Client says it’s my decision to show or not, and she’ll respect it either way. Doesn’t think she owes it to the architect, be/c it’s my copyright. I’ve met the guy once, and my impression was that he thought extremely well of himself and didn’t much care to be hobnobbing with people of my ilk.
So, is there any reason why I should show the plans to him? Is it in bad taste to not do so? Oh, and I just heard that he sold the same dome design to another client, so there’s the possibility that my floorplan……..nah, he can’t be that obvious….can he?
Replies
First, run to the nearest mirror, and look at yourself. Then come back here.
Now that yer back... Did you see "stupid" written on your forehead ?
I'm betting not.
Do not allow the archy to have a copy of the prints.
A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
dont show him anything watch your step he could be a problem
Don't even give him the time of day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
He doesn't want a copy of the prints as a professional but as a sneak in the dark rattle snake looking for a victim to strike. He wants to collect an additional fee at your expense. Don't even acknowledge the snake in any way whatsoever. No verbal and certainly absolutely no written contact.
Put him on total ignore and put yourself on total alert.
Gabe
Hmmnn,... I would show him the plans... If he pays a fee for them. Depending on the project I might still might give him a 1/16
scale set or something like that for free. Maybe...You know full sized sheets shrunken down to 8-1/2" x 11" pages you know to be courteous and respectful and to give him hints of what you did (teasing him so to speak) but there is no way I would give
him a full sized complete set without him paying a fee for them.
"Oh, and I just heard that he sold the same dome design to another client, so there's the possibility that my floorplan.... " And when I talk about a fee I see this as being a kind of licensing issue. If he wants to license your floor plan I would think of the fee in that context.
On another (Macintosh) note, that I think you'll be interested in, my brothers and I just started using the iSight cmaera and iChatAV and for video conferencing yesterday. Literally you just plug in the video camera in a Firewire port, download the new Audio-Video version of iChat and it just works. It's so simple you feel like you must have missed something. The two brothers I have also see added benefits in iChatAV beyond business conferencing in that it will allow thier kids ages 14 months and 19 month respectivly to "video conference" with grandma too as soon as we get her hooked up.
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"I might still might give him a 1/16 scale set or something like that for free"
And he can then take it to a copier and have it enlarged 1600%
Yeah he could but then he would be outright breaking the law if there was a copyright symbol on the document. Plus the copy stores I go to to make large copies like that wouldn't print them for me without the copyright holders approval.
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copyright symbol isn't necessary for something to be copyrighted.
somewhere above i posted the link to the us copyright ofice.
it is "copyrighted" as soon as u prepare it. just not registered.bobl Volo Non Voleo
Yeah but if you want to expect to collect damages having the symbol and registration is important based on the way cases are settled. Been there done that with all this. Plus if there isn't a copyright symbol on a work it can easily be argued that the person making the copy had no idea that the work wasn't protected and wasn't in the public domain or otherwise available. Under those circumstances while you may win your argument for ownership of the work the courts may not (and probably will not) offer you compensation for damages given that you would have to prove that despite your not having marked the work as copyrighted that the person making the copy absolutely knew it was.
If you really want protection put the symbol on the work.
And then if you REALLY want protection register the work.
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I've met the guy once, and my impression was that he thought extremely well of himself and didn't much care to be hobnobbing with people of my ilk.
Well, I can understand his point of view .... {G,D&R}
I think the decision should be based on why (you think) he wants to see the plans.
(As if you can ever really know.)
If he wants to learn from them, and will (at some level) acknowledge that he has learned from you, and if he'll take those lessons and use them to better serve his clients, then yep, show 'em
If. on the other hand, he'll be unlikely to acknowledge learning from people of your ilk, scroom.
I think your client should tell him its up to you, and give him your number to call.
If he doesn't call, you'll have your answer; if he does call .... Well, you've shown your a good judge of character....
_______________________
10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.
11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:10-11
Damn architects, always looking for a handout... ;)
Ain't that right Kevin????
Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the ark, Professionals built the Titanic.
Hey, I don't want a handout.
But if I send you a dollar and a plan of a $19 bill, will you send me $20?
CH: Architects still haven't decided what constitutes the copyrightable portion of the design (AIA has a whole bunch of rules and suggested practice, which are enforced about as ofter as architectural practice laws . . . ) Asking for a set of your drawings is more than a bit low in my book. My vote is no, keep your drawings. Unless he's interested in paying for them, like any other customer. If his gripe is that you used his design, he can go pull the permit copy from the City just like anybody else (civil discovery requires that he provide the evidence that you are not innocent, not vice versa).
the LOML, whose been in and out of the architecture biz in various capacities (virtually every job but an actual architect) for 25 years says "NFW" on this one.
we both liked elcid's suggestion though- give him a copy on an infected disk.
m
http://www.copyright.gov/bobl Volo Non Voleo
I just wish they would publish more floorplans in Fine Home Building - you know, for inspiration. :-)>Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
No Day, No How, No way, Jose.
SamT
"Law reflects, but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society.... The better the society, the less law there will be. In Heaven, there will be no law, and the lion will lie down with the lamb.... The worse the society, the more law there will be. In Hell, there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed."
Grant Gilmore, The Ages of American Law (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1977), pp. 110-111.
From 32866.117
Well first off, take that as a compliment that the customer asked you about it in the first place, right? I mean, once they bought the plans from you, I can see how they might think of them as theirs, or at very least public domain, which in reality, they probably are.
Now, for your real question - should YOU grant permission? To me the answer is the same as it is in any business decision - "what's in it for me, and what's it gonna cost me?" Oh sure, some people like to pretend that is a selffish view of doing business. But in my opinion it's the core of our decision making criteria every single day - in business and in life.
Part of why I pose these ethical or philosophical questions is be/c even though I think I know what I'll do, it's interesting to see the perspectives of other people who I've come to kinda know and certainly respect. I always see at least one or ten angles that I skipped over in my own analysis. Thanks. I had a partner when I was in the computer software business that I could talk through the interesting cases with, and it was always interesting to see when she'd agree or disagree, and what I could take from that. Well, she may have looked a helluva lot better than the group of youse, but your perspectives are as appreciated.
First thing that I thought of was, is he trying to say you infringed on his copyright or design? Even though the client paid him a bundle, he still owns the design unless stated otherwise in the sales contract. When he called the client (what...a year after she paid him?) to see if she got the plans, was the archy infering that he sent plans and maybe they got lost in the mail?
If you send him a reduced-size plan, find some way to stretch it in one direction only so it can't be scaled. And don't print with dimensions. Or if you want to be a real scum bad ilk, send him a disk with the plan and a virus and tell him your name is Larry.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Your comment about reduced size reminded me of an incident a few years back. I was doing a site audit and needed an as-built to locate the services that ran under the slab. I went to the building supervisor and asked if he had a copy that I could borrow. He said no problem that they had all that "stuff" on micro and could print me out a copy. About 15 minutes later he comes back and hands me an 8 1/2 by 11 sheet of paper with the entire building underground service plan on it.
Problem was that there were nearly 30 pipes running down the corridor and I had a little trouble telling them apart.
You see the building was a massive hangar that was several football fields long.
The genius couldn't understand my needing something a little better that 100ft to the inch.
Gabe
I wondered that, too. Second thought was, will he use it on the new house. I did my own floorplan. What I found most fascinating was that she paid him about 5 times my fee, and then was too intimidated (?) by him to make him fix numerous obvious flaws with the floorplan. I'll never know for sure, but I'll not send him my plans either, and y'all helped me settle that in my mind.
Cloud: Let's see, now. You have a school-aged daughter. Surely you have read Harry Potter. What advice would Mad-Eye Moody give? Never accept a drink from a known enemy. I think that applies in this case.
DonThe GlassMasterworks - If it scratches, I etch it!
This had nothing to do with the current thread. However, since you mentioned it, I want to etch-actually carve-designs in a large shower enclosure.
We are from Hawaii and want that theme. Can glass be tempered after it is etched, carved?
How is that done?
I too am retired miliary.
Thanks
Stef
Yes.
Dunno.
Me too.
Start an neww thread called "Don - The GlassMasterworks " He can answer this properly.
SamT
"Law reflects, but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society.... The better the society, the less law there will be. In Heaven, there will be no law, and the lion will lie down with the lamb.... The worse the society, the more law there will be. In Hell, there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed."
Grant Gilmore, The Ages of American Law (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1977), pp. 110-111.From 32866.117
Edited 7/31/2003 7:01:15 PM ET by SamT
Were just the foundation/slab and underslab utilities in place when you got the call? Or the whole shell up? Sorry if you already explained that, but going backwards is not one of my strong points (ask my rear bumper!).
Anyway, the guy calls a year later to ask if she got the prints, righto. He must have heard the house was done, and turned out well.
Me, I'd have to call him and find out what's up with his late/latest inquiry...seems way too much conjecturing going on without looking up the horse's mouth. Seems to me, you made his plan work, if he wants to make that same plan work again, he's gotta take you with him.
And, just for my own curiosity, of what ilk are you, exactly, that an architect that an architect wouldn't hobnob, a portalet pumper perhaps?<G>
EliphIno!
The whole shell was up, with problems during construction, which are being resolved now. Client's one of my best references. If I let a whole year pass while one of mine was being constructed without checking in on progress, I wouldn't feel so good about myself. I can't speak for him, and I don't know why the client didn't press for more service. I found her to be a delight, and him less so.
Your conjecture is interesting. I think I'd take a pass if that was the case. I like doing the conceptuals, too, and am busy enough and probably egotistical enough that I'd choose not to play second fiddle to him on a design for which he'd take credit (and the great, great bulk of the fee) while I did the grunt work. Priorities.
Isn't "ilk" a great word?!
Yeah, the passing of a year is the interestingly strange point. And, it sounds like he's looking for someone to put the meat on his bones.
As a sometimes design/builder (no kind of licencses in any way, shape or form), some my ideas have been built, and not by me...a cost of doing business.
As a house trimmer, I have to flesh out every architect's vision. And sometimes they don't see too clearly, or even around the corner, course you don't know nothing about corners<G> Dang, I've only worked for one architect that actually supplied us with useable and buildable specs, the rest just refer to the finishing touches as "the messy details".
Hey, I mostly make my living off of making those "messy details" look like they were subtly planned by a master, for comparitively chump change, and then I get asked why it cost so much (and I'm not charging even close to what it's worth)...jeeze, I need more of my Chicago ilk to come around here and kick some booty !
So, while I empathize with your quandry, there is no way I could not stop myself from calling up your pompous collegue just to play with him a little...or, you just could fax him some floorplans from an Oakwood modular<G> EliphIno!
or, you just could fax him some floorplans from an Oakwood modular<G>
Best idea yet, LOL, but still good idea. Let him see if he can remember the job... and wonder.
SamT
"Law reflects, but in no sense determines the moral worth of a society.... The better the society, the less law there will be. In Heaven, there will be no law, and the lion will lie down with the lamb.... The worse the society, the more law there will be. In Hell, there will be nothing but law, and due process will be meticulously observed."
Grant Gilmore, The Ages of American Law (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1977), pp. 110-111.From 32866.117
Concepts don't have copyright unless they are on paper,but a nonbuildable design on paper has copyright, if she payed for design then the peice of paper is hers and any elaborations on yuor part are yours.
I designed a $40000 addition one time didn't get job saw my plans in code enforcement next spring called client asked if they were going to do job they said they got someone for 5G less then me to make a long story short cost them 10G for using my plans . That is the only job I ever got paid for design time.
I woulds reply with something that looks boilerplate, saying thank you for your inqury about our plan service. We will be happy to provide you with a copy of _x_ plan for our typical [price of $_____]
Submitt to [adress] and we will ship promptly.
He can measure the cost you quote against his own valuable time to redo it all himself. If he is a business minded person, he will pay up and view it as a subcontractor/draftsman and possibly even pass the cost on to his other customer.
you might want to provide the plans in digital form with a watermark crediting you.
The boilerplate style keeps it cold and professional and makes it appear that his inqiry is barely worth your time to respond, a mild snub to give you satisfaction, if you are looking for that sort of thing.
Excellence is its own reward!
My initial response, when I read yer title was...
Depends on whether she shows or not...
he he he
A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
Cloud, you may have a dead read on this guy but let me offer another point of view based on a couple things you mentioned.
Charged a bundle for the concept and did not provide prints
What did the architect provide in this case? Renderings, conceptual sketches, a floorplan... What?
Client felt stranded, had problems with early construction, and called me for assistance.
I gather from that information that the architect provided something that allowed the HO to draw permits and begin construction. Did the HO ever let the architect know she was having trouble or was this news to him when he called her to see if she was going to build the design or not?
Architect expresses interest in seeing them, and repeats the request a couple weeks later.
Reverse the role for a second and put yourself in the architect's shoes. If someone reworked one of my designs I would want to know what was viewed as deficient in my initial design. I would further want to know why I wasn't informed about the problems and given the opportunity to fix them. The answer of, "no, you can't see them" is going to raise some suspicion for him. From that perspective you might be able to imagine that he is starting to get suspicious about what exactly took place here. "Did this Cloud guy swipe my design and sell it or something?"
Doesn't think she owes it to the architect, be/c it's my copyright
This is such a touchy deal. Courts can be pretty funny about these things but it probably depends on what he gave the HO in the first place. I can just imagine how he will interpret the statement that he can't see what was changed because you are the copyright holder now though. I would be very careful about how you, or the HO, word that denial. He may get understandably suspicious and start looking for legal defenses. No point in getting him riled by speculating and suspecting him for thoughts and plans he may not be having but that he could suddenly develop if he feels like someone is trying to work him over.
I've met the guy once, and my impression was that he thought extremely well of himself and didn't much care to be hobnobbing with people of my ilk.
I certainly know my share of architects that fit that description but I've also misinterpreted people before. It could be that he was just guarded because he rightly viewed you as a viable competitor. You ought to see some of the goofy showmanship I witness among my colleagues when we get together for monthly AIA meetings. People can be their most obnoxious around those they view as competitive peers.
That said, it sounds like his personality was pretty intimidating to the HO. That smacks of arrogance to me but then again, it could just be that the HO is a mouse. I can't imagine not being pretty aggressive about getting what I am paying for with any professional.
All that to say, I like the idea of the HO giving the guy your phone number and I would take his call as a priority if it came in. You can handle yourself just fine so I would invite him to my studio to look over the plans and discuss the changes you made man to man. I wouldn't offer him a set of prints, but above all, I wouldn't offer him the chance to speculate too long about what sort of sneaky things I might be up to with his original design either.
I would hate to find out he is logged on to an architecture forum somewhere posting speculations about you, similar to the ones we've been posting about him here. :-)>
Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Kevin,
when he comes over, I would hope he brings a copy of his plans so the total package can be discussed.
so it is a learning experience for both parties.bobl Volo Non Voleo
Thanks for the perspectives, Kevin. The area doesn't require permits, so no plans sufficient for permitting were needed or provided. Conceptual sketches and a foamboard model of the exterior were provided, plus an undimensioned floorplan. Construction was started with no measured drawings other than foundation. Yeah, EEEEEEK! Some third party was expected to prepare plans sufficient for framing, but never quite got around to it, though they took some money. Don't know if the architect was aware of the problems or not, but many, many other people knew. Many people. The architect regularly limits himself to conceptual work, and then has other people do the prints, which they copyright. So that someone else did her drawings is not unusual for his designs. In fact, it was absolutely necessary that someone else draw them up if she was gonna have anything to build from, be/c he didn't and/or doesn't provide them. That wouldn't seem to create an obligation on anyone else to show the results--a contract be/t two parties cannot obligate a third party. She's told him who did the drawings, and he's chosen not to call me, but just to ask her for them. I think it might come down to a generic question of, is someone entitled to see work that they didn't provide within their contract? When I got involved, they were six months past the start of the project, and dead in the water. No plans, and no one to prepare them. For him to get interested a year later is interesting, but I don't know what it means. Thus my initial question.
Those issues aside, it was an interesting challenge, but one I would prefer to avoid. More better to start from scratch. The shell was up, and conduit was in the walls, so I had to develop a floorplan to match existing conditions. It was kinda fun to travel there and measure the interior and then work a floorplan to those shapes and the locations of stubbed out pipes, etc. Still rather not have to repeat that.
Well, that cleared up a lot. I almost went to work for a local firm that has a couple of "preliminary design only" architects. Other members of the firm solidify their work and pass it on to drafting but I've never heard of an architect trying to pull that stunt as a one man band. I can't imagine how he expects that arrangement to work but you indicated that he received a large chunk of change for it so maybe he has something going there. You might want to think about checking out his operation to see if you can emulate it. :-)> Sweet gig hu?
I can certainly understand how the client might have run into a problem or two with that set of "working drawings." WOW! You had some fun with this one didn't you? I've always found renovation design to be one of my greatest challenges. This would have been kind of like designing a brand spankin' used building. One more hat's off to ya my boy!
Stick to your guns and don't be afraid to use 'em. Good luck.Kevin Halliburton
"I believe that architecture is a pragmatic art. To become art it must be built on a foundation of necessity." - I.M. Pei -
Well done.
: )
A good heart embiggins even the smallest person.
Quittin' Time
Kevin - interesting post - kind of a "here's hopw to walk a mile in his shoes"
Thx_______________________
10 .... I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful.
11 For no one can lay any other foundation than the one we already have--Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:10-11
Cloud,
Haven't read all the previous 34 messsages, but what comes to my mind is, DON'T give away your work. IF you were the vengeful type (you're not), give him the prints (and to a notary or attorney). Then, when he submits those drawings as his own, report him to the registration board for architects. That's worth at least a reprimand. And if he stamps the drawings (which should only be done if he has prepared them or had responsible charge of the people who did), the board would very upset at him. I'm licensed (as a PE, Civil) and registration boards get upset about much less blatant offenses and ethical lapses.
I would not show him anything. If someone shows interest a year later there is another motive, and he is trying to use others ideas and/or people. This is the same type of guy I had to deal with during my studio, design classes in school, scavengers who had to use other people's ideas to get by. You come into class the next week and there is a major part of your design incorporated in his work. Sorry, I had to vent a bit.
I would actually try to get a hold of his newest cleints to find out how he is marketing and getting jobs that he might not be qualified for. Stop the spread of the his work for un-suspected cleints. And maybe check on your copyright.
Dan