The Bear you hibernating or out n about?
next couple days will be starting on some siding that will entail a tapered situation w/ shingles *** 5/4 X 12″ bellyboard capped w/ big crown that will app. 4″ proud of sheathing – call it a 4″ taper
#1 issue – hoping for the bear to elaborate on his technique using router – use one of those small trim routers ; nail shingle home then bearing follows profile other side of corner and continue weaving upwards? my routers are bigger and I’ll be up 2nd story plus – recommendations on trim router, cost etc.?
#2 primed and one coat finish the shingles are pliable enough for maybe 3″ taper – should I just go w/ greener material to get the pliability for 4″ taper or I’ll try priming only – concerned the separation between shingles will be greater but probably necessary to provide for successful corner
looking forward to trying it – has to beat my olde method using my saber saw and scribe line thanks John
Replies
Utility knife and a good wrist
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You're talking about outside corners where there's a flare? On my house the bottom 24" of the exterior wall flares out by 4". The shingles in that bottom section were more time consuming to weave, but I did a lot of the corner cuts with a tablesaw. Put the shingle on one side of the corner, hold up the shingle on the other side, scribe the line on it, cut it on the saw. Yes, they are curves, not straight lines, but if you keep the blade low you can cut a gentle curve. Then nail it on and use a block plane to finish. I tried using a trim router but it never felt like the easiest way. A jigsaw is also good for this. Matte knife works too. Wet shingles make it easier.
Good timing on this thread! I just made a "sample" corner for my client, so she could see exactly what it will look like on the house before I get too far...
I assume the inside corners are the same technique, but sorta reversed from the outside? Any tricks to them?
And, how close to the edge on the ouside corners do you nail?
Thanks.Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Jake
Inside corners should be butted against an inside corner strip.
A square 2"x2" of cedar full height
Good Luck
T.C.
jake .. for inside corners, you can use a ground (say a 5/4 x 5/4 strip )
or you can weave inside corners the same way you weave outside corners..
both look good.. make sure your ground is just as decay resistant as the shingles... ie: rip it out of red cedar or luan.. or merante'
i'd guess we do about 90% of our jobs with grounds as opposed to woven inside corners
i see a lot of people nail their outside corners with a finish nail thru the butt.. big mistake.. it hardly ever does anything besides eventually splitting the butt..
most times i use 3 nails on an outside corner... two low and one high to make the tip lie flat..
keep your outside low nail in the meat so it has good holding.. but as far out as you can while keeping it in the meat.. this is the clamping nail.. you can usually test with your hand by pushing to see just how much clamping action you are going to get from the nail...
here's some bad examples of "do as i say.. not as i do" notice more than 3 nails.. a result of not finding any meat with the first ones
also some examples of inside woven corners.. one is an outdoor shower.. the other a special footing cap ...the aagreig i had to soak those shingles (used a bucket of salt water from the bay )
and a sample of a severe flare.. two inches in one course
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Using that butt board to ground to is easier and cheaper than weaving and if carefully done is barely noticeable. lots of times, a down-drop from the gutters is run in front of it anyways, But I still prefer the beauty of well woven inside corners when the outside corners are woven. I don't mind the inside boards when the ousides have corner boards.
Where you mention the extra nails, that is no prpoblem when it is because of not hitting any meat behind be3cause the nail does not have a puirchase to induce stress on the cedaar grain when expanding and contracting. That movement will splitr shingles over time when they are too securely anchored with too many nails.
I'm sure you know that but I wanted to elaborate for others.
[and save you any more embarassment about using too many nails, ;-) ]
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
boy.... was my face red....hee, hee, hee..
so... what about the finish nail in the butt ?
and while you're using your utility knife ... my tool of choice has evolved into my 4" Porter CAble trim saw... i scribe with a pencil and cut to the line... and don't look back
my 2d choice is my 6" Panasonic Battery saw..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
That's another tool to drop off the staging from three stories up. It won't fit into my toolbelt like the old utility knife does.
But I don't mind you using it.
;)
I do use a three penny fine on corners and for hidden aniling sometimes. Carefully driven with an upslope it works good and the hole made slopes down away from building so water doesn't penetrate.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Great advice, thanks. I am doing a flare at the bottom, so it will be weaved at both ends. I don't think there is a way to get a corner landing board to bend for an inside flare......
I have some existing foundation issues that need to be accomodated for, what is a "standard" flare? I know it depends on style of house, scale of house, etc, but I was just wondering if there were any rules of thumb.
I was thinking about the different tools to form the curves....I have a Bosch cordless saw, but I wonder if an oscillating drum sander might be a cool tool to get a fine curve? Won't work on anything above the ground, though!
Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Edited 2/21/2004 12:50:08 PM ET by LATEAPEX911
jake... as far as i no... if there were such a thing as a "standard " flare it would be a piece of plaster lath under the butt of the starter course..
so.. 3/8" lath, starter course and bottom course would be the closest thing to "standard".. one of my friends callst the lath "the ant highway" (?)
most of the victorian shingle styles we see will use a 3/4 kicker for a little more drama.... the 1.5 " kicker we used was the request of the architect
as to "true curve" that's one of the things i like about the 4" trim saw.. the diameter is small enough ( especially with the depth set to say 1/2") that it will cut a smooth curve.. but it won't cut a false curve like you can get with a saber saw..
on this job ( sawn back shakes) i showed one of my guys how we used to do it with shingling hatchets....back in the olde days... he was suitably impressed to the point he went out and bought a Plumb shingling hatchet the next day...
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Pretty cool stuff, Mike. Keep taking and posting those pictures! How long until those shingles weather together? Or will they ever really match?
My client desires a strong flare, and fortunatley, that works well with some physical restrictions. I bulit a sample that used a 2 x 4 ripped with a bevel, laid on it's side as the bottom spacer, followed by smaller ones per course. Mitering the corners of those spacer boards seemed to give me good meat to nail into. But I noticed that I had to be careful in choosing the right curve, or the shingles were just too hard to bend.
I took the 3 foot tall sample corner I built, and hung it on different corners of the house for her to look at. Fun stuff! Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
so, jake... where's your pics ?... c'mon... lesseeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
OK, OK! Funny you should ask..I just got my new memory card for my camera yesterday. Give me a little time and I'll get some stuff up.
I have shots of previous projects, but those were bathrooms and halls and decks and so on....no shots of cedar shingles yet!Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
I'm doing a slightly sharper flare (4" over 24"). You will find that the courses that make the 'turn' to plumb require a lot of force to compress against the wall before fastening. Ya just gotta lean on them with one hand and fasten with the other. Looks a lot cooler than plumb walls to me. Our place had them originally and I couldn't see removing them on the remodel, although it's a lot of time and trouble to re-do them.
I like the look too. These will be about 5" from sheathing to the outside surface of the bottom shingle. Over about 30" or so.Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Hey Pippen & Mike what do the veteran shinglers call that stainless box they wear on their chests and all the nails fall heads up?
and Mike what do you mean by a saber saw doesn't get a true curve - is that if you follow the index in front rather than the blade?
after the two max that do get purchase above the exposure line I go w/ a 1" X 14 threaded bronze boat nail on that lower flap - bought a big box of them when I was bldg my Mother Earth News homemade lapstrake canoe
I used the word taper / you guys much mo better flare!
was hoping the bear might join in - remember his alluding to using a trim router on flared corners
Monday morn I'm off to the mill to find some green R&R shingles - best of luck w/ yours Ciao John
john.. i've never used one but i think they're called a nail stripper. or a stripping box".. piffen is a lot older than me... so he's probably used one and still has it.... .........BUT.. i'm pretty sure it's for roofing nails only.. i don't think they work for the sidewall shingle nails
what i meant by the saber saw.. if you can draw a false curve ( one that a batten can't bend to ) a saber saw can cut it..
with a circular saw , even if you make a bad scribe..or up near the top where there is nothing to scribe to.. the saw will fair the line and give you a true curve anyways..
as for buying green shingles... i'd rather soak some if i have to bend them that much.. of course i don't have the option of going to the shingle mill so mebbe i'm blowin smoke
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 2/21/2004 6:26:11 PM ET by Mike Smith
ya Mike you got it nail stripper
my guy ( since retired ) used it on roofs and sidewall - thinking we use the same nail 6d roof 4d sidewall
john -
you have mike and piffin and thats a good solid mound of experiance and knowledge . so my 2¢ ... i use a portercable 310 router w/ an amana 47180 helix flush trim bit. hang it proud 1/4-1/2" lightly score on the underside. (read the grain ) you might have to climb cut ,maybe not. then one nail on bottom 4d HDG or a ss ring shank than trim with dykes but you lose the head which counts for holding longevity. i do work from the outside into the inside i weave my inside corners. but i do like the 5/4x5/4 where applicable. i go threw the bundle and TRY to muster up all the flat sawn shingles for outside corners .when working w/ my pal dannyboy i focus on the outside corners and danny fills in , the guy's quick . the flat sawn is just more stable when ruoting the thing wont splinter, keeping them wet helps alot.in the summer agood blast with the garden hose while there in my 6 milk crates then throw a tarp over them . that just to keep them supple. havent dropped the router yet i got a loop w/ a carbiner (sp) and a big lug. i went out and got ####couple closet pole bracket attached to wall or my alum-a-pole when i up over eight feet and have the router ,gun, saw etc. dangling from it when it's not in immediate use. like i said mike and piffin have some good technique and i myself have extracted loads of stuff from them ........ i love shingling there something ...ZEN.... about it.. that was for andy........cheers have fun da bear"expectations are premeditated resentments"
something ZEN?
It must be the cedar. it's a righteous wood!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
was at a loss for a spiritual -like adjective that acuumulated the the product,and methodology, technique, and the almost non-comparable look of a fine cedar shingle job. ....hows that for a heaping pile bologna...... i love to shingle, it's fun.
hey .. much snow up there in paradise????"expectations are premeditated resentments"
Of all the roof products I've ever used, none beats cedar for pleasure.
Snow? another inch every hour tonight so far
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
hey thanks you guys - and I'm right in line w/ you in the reverence of cedar!
It is a nail stripper. They worked for 6,7, and 8d nails for shakes. heads on the 3-4 d nails too fine for it.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
For inside corner, do the corner piece first ion each run rather than leadinf into the corner, lead out of it. Hold piece to the line and use finger and pencil to scribe the shape of the fit. Then I use a utility knif to whip the wastre off. First piece nails in, Second on opposite side of the corner gets a final fit with a couple passes of block plane to be perfect first.
OS corners I nail as close as possible but shaething only goes so far so the nail ends up about 1-1/2" back from finished edge.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Good heads up on the direction to work from. I had planned to go inside to outside, as it seemed more logical, but I wasn't sure if I was missing anything!Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT