I’m sure this question has been asked numerous times in the past, but I did a such and didn’t find anything that was useful.
I have been asked to put together a bid for someone on a new house. In the past I have been doing mainly remodels doing either time and material and or have put together a bid (bath/kitchen remodel) but this will be my first bid on a house. I know that I could do a take off on each part of the house down to the door knobs, but am looking for something a little quicker. The customer is deciding between myself and another contractor, so I want to monitor my time before I even have the job.
What do you guys suggest? Is there any reference material you can direct my to? Maybe some square foot pricing or other type of break down? I live in SW Montana, but prices tend to be a little high comparitivly.
Any suggestion would be great.
Thanks
Replies
Put in the time. If you miss something in the bid you will pay for it later. We all have to do the leg work, and so do you.
WAHD
Ditto what the other guy said.
And don't forget to allow for unforseen things. No one thinks of everything. You need contingencies for both labor and materials.
Needing someone is like needing a parachute. If he isn't there the first time you need him, chances are you won't be needing him again.
Boss,
What? Now I'm the other guy?......
Ohhhhhh...sounds almost scandalous.
WAHDView Image
Sorry - I had already hit the reply button, and couldn't remember who the "other guy" was who had posted.
In the future I'll be careful to NOT say anything that might posibly offend you - ESPECIALLY if that's a pic of you at the bottom of your posts............(-:Our biggest problem is that nobody wants to take responsibility for anything—but don't quote me on that.
I thunk that was his boyfriend.
:O)
Sorry Wahd, couldn't resist..
Excellence is its own reward!
Actually, it's a youger Swartzenager!.
Excellence is its own reward!
No, that's Hanz (or is it Franz) here to "Pump You UP!"
BTW, I didn't know nudity was allowed in this forum. Can I display a picture of my massive brain - even without a hat?
Piffin,
Your not jealous are you? I like you too. :~)
If you send me your pic I will attach it next to Arnolds.
WAHDView Image
OK, Here ya go!
;-)
Let's see both together now!.
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
You must have worked out alot over the years!View Image
Pif, you must have sent the wrong one.
FROMALOL
You must have got up early this morning!
As soon as I get some income tax work doen and forms filled out, I'll have to start learning a new skill.
Then you guys gonna be in trouble.
;).
Excellence is its own reward!
Boss,
I wasn't offended. I was taking a stab at a little humor.
The pic is Arnold. We all have heroes and role models, I admire Arnold for his discipline, dedication and intelligence. He is actually quite the business man. There are many other people who poses these qualities, I like Arnold because I am into weightlifting also. Most of his movies I can do without.
WAHDView Image
I was also poking fun.
But I make it a point to NOT give too much crap to guys who are bigger 'n me.............(-:So - When's the Wizard going to get back to you about that brain?
Yup, do the work. But put as much of it as you can into a "system" to speed future estimates. That way you are not wasting the time, but investing it.
Another day, another tool.
MTCARPENTER while I think the consensus here seems to be to do the detailed
(stick method) takeoff and estimate anyway I not sure I agree. If anything
I can lean a little towards Rich's advice in that you can use the the detailed
information to develop a more streamlined quick "system" for you to use in
the future. Well that could take a while and it might be a while before you've
covered all the bases for all the possible jobs you may end up looking at.
My recommendation would be to get the correct estimating data book for your
particular region and type of work from HomeTech and
use that as your quick ball park estimating guide.
To give you an example of how that might work for you in looking at the HomeTech
Remodeling and Renovation Estimator they have 122 line items devoted to the pricing
of decks but to me the stuff they have in there is pretty generic and ordinary
and not quite what it is that we do. But I can extremely quickly work up deck
estimate from it that's well priced and then fudge it a little based on my
own judgment and expertise to accommodate the fancier work or better materials
that we may use to just help me just sell the general project budget to a client.
If they go for it and agree I will then produce the detailed estimate
based on our own in house data system (which has something like 2200 lines
of data for deck and outdoor structures) and check it against the estimate
I just
drew up using the HomeTech data. (On larger projects where the detailed estimating
process could get quite involved, could take weeks, and would also involve
some value
engineering on my part I will get them to sign a contract for us to produce
that detailed
estimate for a fee. No way I'm giving away a weeks worth of my time for free!)
The difference between a HomeTech data book and most all of the other construction
data books out there is that the prices HomeTech gives you are based on "market
value" for the construction services they cover whereas the other data books
RSMeans Swifts Craftmans and the like the numbers are based on labor productivity
studies. In other words the two sets of books create their numbers based on
techniques
coming from two different directions. Our back end detailed system is more
like and a lot of it was based on that other set of data books.
I'm actually not a fan at all of the HomeTech system because I think it is
so generic but it is a good place to start to build you own quick Salesman's
type estimating
system. Does that make sense? HomeTech data for quick sales type estimates
and RSMeans Swifts Craftmans data for detailed production estimates.
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
Thanks gentleman for your replies. Jerrald, your comment about getting a ball park estimate is in line with what I'm wanting to do. I realize that it takes time, and that the more you do, the quicker it will get. On average, how much time might you put in a doing a preliminary bid? Just curious. Also, do you ever do a bid off of any thing but a full set of acrchitectual plans? For example, would you do a preliminary bid off of something printed from online? Also if a customer decides to use you as their builder, do you require some type of a deposit? I did find a web site to give an estimate (http://www.building-cost.net). Anyone ever use it? Would it be something worth using to get that ball park figure or should I stir clear of it?
Again, thanks for the replies.
MTCARPENTER I got a lot of experience under my belt estimating now so detailed
or ball park I probably do it faster than most. And a few years ago I realized
it was really important to be able to give a reasonably good number quickly
to both qualify clients (get rid or the tire kickers) and "get in" with the
client too. So I worked hard and developing the techniques, technology, and
methods to do just that.
First of all let me explain too that I have two different sets of rules and
criteria for making decisions based on whether I am working directly for a
home owner as a potential GC or as a sub for a good GC.
On average, how much time might you put in a doing a
preliminary bid? Well
that depends. A general rule of thumb is that if it's going to take me more
than one to four hours I have to think of whether or not it going to be worth
my time. I have a set of plans and specs that I just got yesterday
for a project that I know will take me around 30 hours of work (the package
weighed 7-1/2 lbs!) and we are only in it for the interior woodwork. I'll
estimate it for free even though it's
a competitive bid situation because
the
potential profit margin and the prestige nature of the project makes it worth
the risk in my judgment.
Also, do you ever do a bid off of any thing
but a full set of acrchitectual
plans? I'll give an estimate (noncommittal) but not a firm
bid like that. If the plans were incomplete I would advise my clients that I
would give them that one look for free to see if they we realistic in the budgeting
and thinking but anything beyond that would require them actually hiring us as
part of the project team for a detailed estimate. Giving that quick ball park
estimate is often a good time to get a potential client to sign to Professional
Services Agreement to work with the designer in a design/build arrangement and
getting us paid for value engineering we're then performing.
For example, would you do a preliminary bid off
of something printed from
online? I'm not sure exactly what you mean by that. I think it would depend
on the depth and detail of the plans but could you explain what you're asking
####little bit further? I distribute working drawing to our associated trade contractors
online and that's not a problem but I'm not sure that what you were thinking
about or referring to.
Also if a customer decides to use you as their builder, do you require
some type of a deposit? Oh yeah that's for sure. how much is something else altogether
depending upon the type of project and the projected schedule.
I did find a web site to give an estimate ( http://www.building-cost.net
). Anyone
ever use it? I've never used it but I know it's based on Craftmans data
which I think is fine for more detailed type estimates as I've already mentioned.
Right after I made my last post to you I also happened to recall that HomeTech
has a similar online estimating service too although the URL escapes me right
now and I haven't googled around for it yet. Sorry I can't really offer any kind
of
opinion on those online services yet. I haven't ever checked them out.
Would it be something worth using to get that ball park
figure or should I
stir clear of it? For a non-committal ball park estimate it
very well
might
be
worth
giving a try. I could swear that I recall some people here mentioning using one
of those services once I just can't recall who or exactly where I heard it. Sorry
about that but who knows maybe they'll see this discussion and speak up.
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
Edited 2/20/2003 10:27:01 PM ET by Jerrald Hayes
Jerrald,
I guess my question about the plans would be something similar to what a customer may bring you from out of a book or magazine. Basic dimensions, but nothing technical at all. Leaving a lot for you to figure out.
As far as my previous mentioned web site, it gave me a rough number that I might use to let the customer know he's about $15k shy of being realistic on what he wants to spend. I also know I hear a lot of people throwing around square foot prices. Any where for $70 - $120 maybe a square foot. Do you ever use this as a guide? Is this something that a builder just developes a feel for after he has a lot of experience under his belt, or do any books or other references use these types of figures?
Thanks again. Many more questions and you're going to have to charge me.
I also know I hear a lot of people throwing around square
foot prices. Any where for $70 - $120 maybe a square foot. Do you ever use
this as a guide? No not ever. You obviously haven't
read any of my rants here on the evils of Square foot estimating yet. It's
getting late so I'll find those discussions
for you sometime tomorrow and post the links to them here. But right now I
gonna give the dog a short walk and then hit the sack, seey a tomorrow.
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
MTCARPENTER regarding what we were talking about last night "I
also know I hear a lot of people throwing around square foot prices. Any
where for $70
- $120 maybe a square foot. Do you ever use this as a guide?" I had
responded "No not never" well that's not really true. There are times
where talking in terms of SF or Footprint for estimating can help. It just since
I rarely think or talk that way to do so I actually have to lookup and compute
figures to use.
I just went through a bunch of posts and rather than posting a bunch of link
to different discussion all over the place here I collected my basic thoughts
on Square Foot estimating and put them all on one page. Click
to open it and tell me what you think.
View Image
"Function is based
on more than utilitarian factors. Ambiance invites use."- Sarah Susanka
I agree with your approach but this is his first full house. I would want to think through the process and make sure I have covered all bases. Make it a learnining experience if you will. I think the pay off for the long haul would be beneficial. Once you have built one or two then start streamlining as Jerald has alluded to. Just my thoughts. DanT
Thanks for your post in regards to square foot pricing. I definitely see your point and agree with it. Even in doing a little looking on my home, looking at different numbers on new homes in the area, you get anything from $50 a square foot to $200 a square foot. And who knows what all that includes. And like your example shows, you may end up paying for it yourself in the end.
Well I let you know how things go.